Bobloblaw
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Nobody would know anything about this had he not made a big deal of this by filing suit and taking it to the media. The guy is a moron and and a drama queen.

He was detained for no reason. It sounds like the crew lied about what he had said.
 
lweber557
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 7:55 pm

This whole thing could have been avoided had the flight attendant just went and got him a soda. It sounds like the flight attendant handled the situation extremely rudely and unprofessionally. If it turns out that the "obscenity and bathroom incident" is proven to be fictional than that flight attendant should be fired. The passenger sounds like an asshole too and in my opinion is asking for a ridiculous amount of compensation. An apology and a free flight would be enough for his troubles.
FAA Licensed Aircraft Dispatcher
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Or they just don't wanna deal with paying their own lawyers to fight it

Actually large corporations outsource legal operations to a law firm on fixed price. So it won't cost them money per case. If this guys wins again insurance company pays the amount as long as company put enough effort defending their case. They also have internal legal counsel, who is a paper tiger, never argued in front of a judge, ready to offer opinion and always want to settle. He is just good to rough up (not literally) any misbehaving employees.

Other side the business, law firms love to have large clients, unless their client wants them fight too many cases.
 
BMI727
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 50):
He was detained for no reason. It sounds like the crew lied about what he had said.

He obviously has ulterior motives. The guy said he was worried about having an arrest record for an incident in which he was not arrested. There was no record for him to be concerned about, so if the concern was having the incident get attention, filing a lawsuit and going to the media does the exact opposite of what he says he wants.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 52):
Actually large corporations outsource legal operations to a law firm on fixed price. So it won't cost them money per case.

For what it's worth, this isn't the type of case that is likely to be subject to the type of agreement you describe. It's too low volume and fact intensive. To your point about insurance, a lot of insurance policies don't cover defamation, if that's what he sued for. Defending it is likely to cost VX money.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
coachclass
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
well, this story depends on hear-say.

No hearsay here. You have direct witness testimony. If it goes to trial the trier of fact will determine what the facts are and who's telling the truth. The only hearsay would be the police report which could come in under an exception.

It took the third flight attendant to get the guy a free soft drink. It was in my mind an unfriendly and not service oriented crew. I've flown them a number of times between FLL and SFO and have had friendly to surly FA's. I think working in that "mood light" affects their mood! For those who haven't flown Virgin, the atmosphere is like sitting in a dark bar for 6 hours.
 
AA767400
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Sun May 05, 2013 10:03 pm

The guy has legit claims - and the flight attendant went too far with the whole situation. This from reading the article. The amount of money is insane, but reflects the culture here in America.

Culturally in America, I find that the flight attendant job is deemed low grade. It pays next to nothing - and you have to deal with hundreds of angry travelers everyday. When treated poorly so many times, they turn to defending their jobs by making everything a safety issue. It's a rough crowd out there, with TSA drama, and long lines - everyone's angry. Add to the fact that after doing it for so long, many become even more bitter.

This is not all flight attendants, but a good portion in my opinion fit this category. I also find most passengers today could care less about anyone else - including FAs. So it's a two way street. You got anger coming from all sides, and the end result is more and more situations like these.

Is the guy a dick? Sure. But just give him the can of soda and call it a day. Ain't nobody got time for that!
"The low fares airline."
 
sankaps
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 51):
The passenger sounds like an asshole too and in my opinion is asking for a ridiculous amount of compensation

Filing a suit for $500,000 does not mean he thinks he will win $500,000. It is to teach the airline a lesson, to make the point that he felt humiliated. If it goes to trial, the jury will decide the actual penalty, and will adjust it up or down depending on the facts and their judgment,
 
klkla
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:11 am

This is a fairly easy issue. The company should do an in depth investigation and interview other passengers on the aircraft as well as re-interview employees to make sure they were telling the truth. If it turns out ANY of the employees lied in any way or falsified reports they should be fired immediately and appropriate charges placed against them for lying to the authorities as a message to other airline employees that this behavior will not be accepted.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 58):
The company should do an in depth investigation and interview other passengers on the aircraft as well as re-interview employees to make sure they were telling the truth.

Do you really think the airline would contact other passengers, wherever they may be in the world? Is it even possible to track most of them down without violating any privacy laws?
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 3:54 am

What I am interested in is why the F/A was so insistent that he use the onboard drink ordering system? He certainly pushed it.
Could it be that when the passengers use the system all totals are tallied up and the liquor inventory adjusted leaving the F/A with just an automated report? Could it be that if this F/A had gotten the customer a drink the normal way he would have had to complete a adjustment ticket to keep the money & liquor inventory straight?

Also, was any evidence taken? Like did someone grab a poop sample for evidence in the court room to ensure it was from the person who supposedly left it? Sorry, I just had to ask.

And good luck trying to get any passengers on that flight into a courtroom for use as witnesses. Most people involved have probably already forgotten what happened.

And finally, watch it. Some people use their poop as a weapon as we found out with that high powered guy who pooped on the food service cart in the story linked above.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 3:57 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 20):
The fact that Virgin offered him compensation (3000 or 5000 which to me is a large amount) tells me he must have some merit to his claim. They wouldnt offer him such an amount unless they know something isnt right here.

I disagree. If he was threatening them with legal action then $5,000 is lost change behind the couch compared to paying $100,000 in legal fees and court costs.

What's more, I agree with:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
For what it's worth, this isn't the type of case that is likely to be subject to the type of agreement you describe. It's too low volume and fact intensive. To your point about insurance, a lot of insurance policies don't cover defamation, if that's what he sued for. Defending it is likely to cost VX money.
Quoting sankaps (Reply 48):
Well, offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them

Not neccessarily. There only objective is to make him shut up and go away. If he is threatening legal action then they probably know that isn't enough. Also, their in-house counsel is a lawyer, "damages" is what they specialise in, not FF benefits.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
Really, you want to attack an entire nation for one idiots indiscretions?

To be fair to strangr, the USA has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined. While broad generalizations are unfair, it is a fact that trivial litigation is more likely there.

And before you take this as an Anti-American statement,

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
visit the people and places that make this country what it is

I used to live in North Carolina, I absolutely love the USA and its people. It is, honestly, my favourite country.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
find that y''all are full of less then spectacular people yourselves.

Too true, but I don't see how that's relevant.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 4:46 am

A Virgin America spokesperson said the company would not comment on ongoing litigation, but had reviewed the case and thought the crewmembers acted appropriately.
http://www.thedailymeal.com/man-files-500k-suit-over-airline-soda

Are we going to hear the FA's version? Why all the anger to FAs? I have not seen one abuse their authority as some imply. I've seen them do things non-professional, but in general call officers unnecessarily.

But I have seen many fraudulent lawsuits. Everyone knows not to pick a fight on a plane. If there is an issue, file a complaint. But seriously, not willing to adapt how one orders a soda? Something doesn't jive as a man who refused to use the screen for THREE FAs is obviously a troublemaker.


Quoting sankaps (Reply 48):
offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them

Real cash? VX spent more on the lawyers making the offer. Seriously, $5000 won't pay for more than a day of lawyer time. Going to trial will get expensive quick for VX.

Quoting klkla (Reply 58):
The company should do an in depth investigation

Why should VX do a witch hunt that would demoralize crew? The case was reviewed by VX and the conduct of the FAs was found to be appropriate. VX should collect evidence so that the man gets to pay VX's legal bills... For this will get expensive quick.

Lightsaber
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mjoelnir
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 5:36 am

I have enough of the defense of the FA. I understand that many on a.net are aircrews and defend their own.

But you start to forget the first rule of business: The customer is King. Why? He pays the bill.

The pax asked for a soda, big deal. The FA could have just brought him one.
We have heard now several times that ordering electronically is an option not a rule on VX.
By not bringing the soda the FA refused service.
Is that acceptable for the FA?
Is it a safety reason to refuse service? (Every strange reaction of an airliner crew seems to be explained by safety reason.)
If you get bad service on board, why is it a crime to complain on board?
A big enough crime to get arrested?

Get down to reality again. There seems to be agreement about that the FA refused to bring a soda.
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains.

The reaction of VX is offering money but no apology. Big mistake.

The amount of 500.000 USD is understandable, every civil action in the US starts off with a crazy amount, otherwise the other side does not take it seriously.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):

Again, we're you there?? No one on here knows the full story. It sounds very fishy to me, and although I think the FA overreacted, maybe not. We can all speculate, but absolute statements shouldn't be used

It just doesn't make much sense that the crew would call the police for not flushing the toilet and not ordering the drink from the electronic menu. I'm thinking there was something else involved and it may be legitimate (I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards your side) but we can't say anything for certain. We know how woefully wrong the media can be sometimes
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 5:53 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

We can not even begin to objectively assess the conduct of either party without hearing the FA's story. Either way, there seems to me that there is more to this than poor Mr Bevivino would have us believe.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
The customer is King

I won't open a can of worms, but I don't fully agree. During normal circumstances then sure, so long as requests are reasonable.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 6:47 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):

Again, we're you there?? No one on here knows the full story. It sounds very fishy to me, and although I think the FA overreacted, maybe not. We can all speculate, but absolute statements shouldn't be used

It just doesn't make much sense that the crew would call the police for not flushing the toilet and not ordering the drink from the electronic menu. I'm thinking there was something else involved and it may be legitimate (I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards your side) but we can't say anything for certain. We know how woefully wrong the media can be sometimes
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

We can not even begin to objectively assess the conduct of either party without hearing the FA's story. Either way, there seems to me that there is more to this than poor Mr Bevivino would have us believe.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
The customer is King

I won't open a can of worms, but I don't fully agree. During normal circumstances then sure, so long as requests are reasonable.

We only have the article, the airline will not comment.

The question is really is the ordering through the red system optional? Several posts here do say so.
If it is optional the FA starts out in the wrong and it is a bad service issue.
I went to the homepage of VX and I found out that you can not use cash and that a soda is provided free of charge.
In FAQ it is not mentioned, if the red system is the only way to order.
My father, still traveling widely being 92 years old, would never use an electronic system.
As you do not have to pay for a soda, I find it strange that the FA did not just bring one.

What I also find suspicious is, the police coming, talking to everybody for a while and disappearing again.

In all my own travels I have found 99.9% of the FAs to be friendly, helpful and all around nice, but there are the 0.1 or something %.
 
sankaps
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Why all the anger to FAs? I have not seen one abuse their authority as some imply.

You are incredibly lucky. I have been at the receiving end myself for having had the temerity to try to explain to the Lead FA that the hand-written seat number on my BP was hand-written by the gate agent, not by me. She called me a liar and threatened to call the cops!

I have also witnessed several incidents of crew abusing their authority. As I have said before, it is a minority of cabin crew who do this, but it gives them all a bad name.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Real cash? VX spent more on the lawyers making the offer. Seriously, $5000 won't pay for more than a day of lawyer time. Going to trial will get expensive quick for VX.

But if they are confident of winning, then the pax will likely have to pay damages and costs. So why worry if they have a strong case?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Why should VX do a witch hunt that would demoralize crew? The case was reviewed by VX and the conduct of the FAs was found to be appropriate.

Absolutely does not gel with the fact VX offered the pax $3-5k as cash compensation. If all threats of lawsuits without merit resulted in such offers, then VX would be bankrupt even sooner than we expect!
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 66):
As you do not have to pay for a soda, I find it strange that the FA did not just bring one.

If that much is true, then we agree 100% that the conduct of the FA is not on.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 66):
What I also find suspicious is, the police coming, talking to everybody for a while and disappearing again.

True, although it could be a case of evidence. He said - she said cases aren't looked favorably upon by prosecutors, at least not in Australia (jurisdiction I have knowledge about).

Also, we are again taking the customer's word at face value. For a start maybe there are criminal proceedings being considered that he (or his lawyer) doesn't want to share with the media because it would harm his case. I agree that seems unlikely, but even so who's to say that a police officer who attended the scene won't be called as evidence by the airline? (NB: I'm not sure if that is possible in civil proceedings in California)

Quoting sankaps (Reply 67):
the pax will likely have to pay damages and costs. So why worry if they have a strong case?

In normal life I would agree with you, but that's not how the legal mind works. Get done with the case and you don't have to bother with the court room at all. Even if the airline has a solid case from a legal perspective, who's to say that a jury won't buy into the story of poor, beaten, downtrooden customer vs big, bad, evil corporation? There are too many unknowns with going to court.

Incidentally, I'd say that the nominal damages of $5,000 prove that the airline's lawyers think that they will win. If they didn't they would offer something like $50-100,000 in damages in return for settlement.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
PanHAM
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

even if, it hardly justifies a police presence in that size.

Pointing at the guy and at the screen is rude behaviour of an employee in a service industry. If a waiter in a restaurant does that, you should leave the place. Similar to the question "Whaddayawant? To which the correct answer is_ friendly service.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):
. During normal circumstances then sure,

what is "unnormal" about the circumstances? Passengers have passed security, just want to go from A to B and feel thirsty so they order a soda. If a regular passenger who has been screened in an already questionable procedure poses a threat to aviation per se, I can only recommend to handcuff and chain all pax as a precaution and gang march them on and off the fliught.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
sankaps
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 9:53 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 69):
If a regular passenger who has been screened in an already questionable procedure poses a threat to aviation per se, I can only recommend to handcuff and chain all pax as a precaution and gang march them on and off the fliught.

Shhhhh....! Don't give them ideas!  
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 10:11 am

"noting that he has since experienced, "depression, worry, and anxiety surrounding his detention by law enforcement."................

Really? How sensitive is this guy. He was asked to wait and answer some questions, then allowed to make he way on after 20 mins.

"............ "They're being given too much power. That's what concerns me. The only thing I have is my reputation. Lies just irk me........."

I think this media story will ruin his reputation more than any internal airline record.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 69):
what is "unnormal" about the circumstances?

Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

And happy Anet birthday  
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
PanHAM
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 71):
Really? How sensitive is this guy. He was asked to wait and answer some questions, then allowed to make he way on after 20 mins.

I have never been questioned by police in my life, never held for any amount of time. If that story had happened to me I would sue them as well. That has nothing to do with being sensitive

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
And happy Anet birthday

Thanks, would not have noticed that.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

yes, and what? If you are mis-treated by a crew member, assuming that it is correct that a FA pointed at the paqssenger and then at the screen, assuming that this passenger sweared at this crew member, that would be a spontaneous and normal reaction.

Swearing at a a crew member has nothing to do with the safety of the flight.

The whole problem in America is, that laws which have been passed after 9/11 to fight air piracy and terrorism are applied to normal passengers. However, neither is a rude FA nor a passenger reaction to rudeness of FAs anything close to be a threat to aviation or terrorrism.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 11:42 am

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 12):
I have seen first hand where a guest wanted to order a premium drink and they were not sure how to go about doing on the RED system and I saw the inflight teammember order it herself from a vacant seat right behind the guest, slide the credit card herself and get the guest her drink. Very simple

Very simple? Very simple would be to take the dollar bill(s) and bring back her drink. This is like a scene from a Dilbert cartoon when people sitting in the same room are sending e-mails to each other instead of just talking. Infantile fascination with gadgets which in the end does not makes things any easier.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 44):
I'd be interested to know how the police feel about being called to crap like this.

I was thinking about the same thing... what a PITA it must be to be a cop assigned at an airport when most of your shift you have to deal eiter with products of power tripping flight attendands and/or the abuse of power by the clowns from the TSA. What a relief it must be to have the opportunity to jump in a patrol car and go for a while harrass a bunch of planespotters conducting "suspicious" activity at the fence perimeter.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
The whole problem in America is, that laws which have been passed after 9/11 to fight air piracy and terrorism are applied to normal passengers. However, neither is a rude FA nor a passenger reaction to rudeness of FAs anything close to be a threat to aviation or terrorrism.

+1

[Edited 2013-05-06 04:46:58]
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:13 pm

Ok, It seems that alot of people here are missing the point the passenger is trying to make -

The passenger was working on his computer as he usually does on VX - instead of ordering on the screen he might of seen the flight attendant and tried to order a soda - She refused to provide him the soda.

What if this particular customer flies VX from San Francisco to Philadelphia frequently and always on VX and this is the first time ever they refused to serve him? If he flew 25 times on VX and this particular situation got him very mad that all of a sudden they cannot get him a soda and the other attendants backed up the flight attendant that was wrong and made a huge scene on the airplane trying to prove that the passenger was a disturbance going all the way to stopping the plane and not letting anyone off until a Airport Police Officer escorts the passenger first off of the airplane?

I see this all the time, But honestly I see it more often on non-unionized airlines such as VX, Spirit, Jetblue and Airtran.
I travel at least 5 times a month for business for the last 10 years and I have seen my share of things the last couple of years.

I myself got into a fight with a Delta gate agent boarding my flight to Miami just two weeks ago - It was 8am and I just arrived from an overseas trip, and there were a million people trying to board - I am a Delta Diamond and when they called priority boarding I happened to be on the other side of the ropes of regular boarding, I asked the gate agent to please open the rope for me and my pregnant wife to board and he flat out said no go around and I went off on him, When I picked up the rope myself and I gave him my boarding pass he did not want to take it and started general boarding without even looking at me. I ended up taking out my Diamond card and made a huge deal about it out of principal - I am sorry but when situations like this occur there should be a certain line of customer service
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
Swearing at a a crew member has nothing to do with the safety of the flight

I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

Quote:
Any Guest whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, harassing, abusive or
violent, or:
a. Commits, or threatens to commit, any act which would be detrimental to
the safety of any Virgin America flight and/or its Guests or Team
Members;
b. Appears to be intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs;
c. Attempts to, or has been known to attempt to, interfere with any member
of the flight crew; or
d. Refuses to obey instructions from any flight crew member or to comply
with federal regulations or security directives
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
a FA pointed at the paqssenger and then at the screen, assuming that this passenger sweared at this crew member, that would be a spontaneous and normal reaction.

I'm not sure that I agree that swearing at an FA is the appropriate conduct in such a situation, but that's a discussion for another time and place.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
PanHAM
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I'm not sure that I agree that

yes and everyone who is under the affluence of incahol should not pose as a flight attendant.

Rude behavior by a person (FA) can provoke a rude reaction., Simple fact of life .

I have heard someone quoting Sch.. LH which equals F... VX or similar and no police came., This is a simple matter for the cabin manager , chief purser or whatever he or she is called to say a few friendly words and calm down the situation.

Even police in Germany is trained to de-escalate any given situation before bringing out force.

Forcing that passenger and possibly others to wait in an aircraft until police gets there is the opposite of de-escalation. .

And - are you seriously telling me that a passenger has to "obey" the instructions of a FA to order his drink via a touch screen instead of the FA saying simply acknolwedging with a polite "of course sir" and serving the soda?

Just look at my reply 73 and apply some common sense, please.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
sankaps
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

... which is why, I guess, passengers need lawyers to fight for their rights. Otherwise everything is justified by pointing to the small print.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

  
This guy is acting as if charges were pressed!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
I have never been questioned by police in my life, never held for any amount of time. If that story had happened to me I would sue them as well.

First, happy a.net 8 years!

Its standard practice in the USA for the police to question if there was an event that was perceived as an altercation. That way, if there is a lawsuit later, there is a record. Did the officer file the information? Has anyone paid the $2/page and is willing to scan so we can read it?

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 75):
What if this particular customer flies VX from San Francisco to Philadelphia frequently and always on VX and this is the first time ever they refused to serve him?

Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

Quote:
Any Guest whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, harassing, abusive or
violent, or:

I'm glad that this happened. People are getting RUDE and need to be reminded they have responsibilities under the contract of carriage.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 77):
And - are you seriously telling me that a passenger has to "obey" the instructions of a FA to order his drink via a touch screen instead of the FA saying simply acknolwedging with a polite "of course sir" and serving the soda?

If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda. We're starting to see that in restaurants (very rare as of yet in the US, but my brother LOVES those restaurants in Japan). This is done so that route by route the airline knows the customer preferences and thus can stock fewer drinks on board which saves fuel. Every kg saved is $500 dollars per decade saved. While that might not sound like much, airlines must improve their margins.

If you want agreement that this could have been handled better, the answer is I agree. But turning down reasonable first offers shows this man is greedy. In no way was a $500,000 offense committed. Unfortunately, here in the USA, verbal abusers use lawsuits to get back at people they have abused. Its a situation where they need power control. We need to stop rewarding bad behavior.

Ironically, my verbally abusing (classic case) ex-wife loves VX. Actually, so do her verbally abusing friends and relatives... Unfortunately I have learned far too much about verbal abuse. For those who want to know more, start with Patricia Even's "The Verbally Abusive Relationship."

Quoting sankaps (Reply 78):
I guess, passengers need lawyers to fight for their rights.

A right such as other passengers not having to hear his abuse? How would you have felt if you were on that flight with your children? I judge people by if their behavior is something I want my children to copy. This man obviously isn't worth emulating.

The poor FAs, they go through hell. Saying its their job isn't the same as making it easy. Be polite. I am. There is no need bo bully the FAs. I'm amazed how service improves with a compliment and a smile. On my last flight, I fell asleep and woke up to find a 'bag of goodies" for my girls. (I had talked about my kids with the FA for about 20 seconds.)


Lightsaber
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Quokkas
Posts: 1327
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 12:58 pm

"Loyalty. It's hard to earn, and easy to lose. We promise to always keep that in mind when serving you, constantly striving to give you the kind of Virgin America experience you came to us for in the first place.

"Our goal is to always provide you with an unforgettable experience that adds value to your trip. One that is included in your best travel memories, nestled right next to your first trip to the beach and your photo at the Statue of Liberty.

"If there ever comes a time when we're not being as Virgin America as we could, we will do everything in our power to remedy the situation and put a smile back on your face."

and

"Virgin America ... is on a mission to make flying good again,"

Such is the blurb on the VX web site. This clear implication is that VX offers a welcoming experience combined with a high standard of customer service. It is therefore reasonable on the part of the customer to expect a simple request to be met without fuss.

As a matter of interest, are "implied conditions of contract" recognised in US law? An implied condition may be one that is based on custom or be so obvious that it need not be spelt out. In any service orientated business the customer normally expects courteous service, and the excerpts from the VX web site would tend to reinforce that expectation with regard to the services that they offer. If US law recognises implied conditions, then it could be argued that VX were in breach of their own contract and that the claimant is entitled to compensation for the allegedly rough treatment he suffered at their hands.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda. We're starting to see that in restaurants (very rare as of yet in the US,

It I about "obedience" and the conditions of contract. In case of emergency, it makes perfect sense to follow the instructions of the FA. If a FA asks me to pull down the window shades, I do it.

If a FA points first at me and then at the screen I not not have to be "obedient" , neither by the conditions of contract nor by common sense. An aircraft is not a gimmick restaurant one goes to by choice. I select restaurants for the quality of food and avoid gimmicks and high towers because of that. I fly because I want to go from A to B and if I am thirsty i ask a FA to bring me a soda. I do not want a FA teachiung me how to order something.

BTW, If I had been the passenger and school mastered in that way I would have thought that she could, well, you know what, and done without that damn soda.



.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9308
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Why, the soda is free according to website of VX. No payment involved.

Several posts stated that the ordering by the red system is optional.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:30 pm

Gimme a break. Another guy trying for a money grab. Hope he loses and gets hit with court costs. Three thousand was absurd--five thousand a joke. HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions. With air travel on full planes with little private space we are all stressed out and it is too easy for someone to snap. Those video touch consoles are a godsend--USE THEM! VX spent a fortune putting them in just for this purpose because it prioritizes requests and people get served in the order requested.

Kind of reminds me of when I am in the grocery store with a carton of milk and one or two other items in the "Ten items or less" express lane and the person in front of me has a full shopping cart. I am playing by the rules--why can't you? (Slightly off topic but don't you think that should be a capital offense? Especially when they wait for the whole order to be rung and THEN start digging for their CHECKBOOK!)
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Gimme a break.

You're right, why shouldn't we all be trained monkeys instead of responsible citizens. Do what the head monkey tells you.

Now, jump out of that door....
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7667
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:46 pm

What happened to common sense approach to deal with rude passengers. FA could wear nauseous perfume(believe it or not, there is a top 10 list), tell passenger "No Problem, I will order for you, but I have to do from your terminal", spend five minutes ordering as he is drowns in awful smell, once is nauseated, charge $8.99 for ginger ale(he already got his free soda). I could have added one more thing, but I guess all VX FAs are good looking.
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Incorrect. It is not a required procedure, it is an option. As has been pointed out by several people earlier in this thread.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
I'm glad that this happened. People are getting RUDE and need to be reminded they have responsibilities under the contract of carriage.

So when FAs are rude, people have to just shut up and accept it? As they do not have anything in the CoC protecting their rights, Iguess it is no surprise they are turning to other legal options!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda.

For goodness sake, repeating this repeatedly does not make this claim accurate. The screen process is an OPTION!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
In no way was a $500,000 offense committed

The amount of the lawsuit is not the same thing as the amount that will be awarded by a jury. The amount is to express outrage at being met by the police for this incident.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

Got data to back that up?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions.

It would be so much better for society in general if customer facing staff with attitudes such as this just found another line of work.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Those video touch consoles are a godsend--USE THEM! VX spent a fortune putting them in just for this purpose because it prioritizes requests and people get served in the order requested.

Again, they are NOT required, they are an OPTION!

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Kind of reminds me of when I am in the grocery store with a carton of milk and one or two other items in the "Ten items or less" express lane and the person in front of me has a full shopping cart. I am playing by the rules--why can't you?

Completely irrelevant and pointless analogy, as there is NO RULE that requires VX customers to order by the IFE system only.
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
A right such as other passengers not having to hear his abuse? How would you have felt if you were on that flight with your children? I judge people by if their behavior is something I want my children to copy. This man obviously isn't worth emulating.

So you somehow know for a fact that this guy was verbally abusing, and doing it loud enough for others to hear? I guess like TS sufferer "screaming" the word "bomb" as was claimed on the other thread? Why is it that for so many airline employees, the customer is always wrong and his / her story is always not credible?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Be polite. I am. There is no need bo bully the FAs.

Works both ways. I am always polite, please, thank you, smiles etc -- and I can tell you that more often than not, when I smile and say "Thank You" there is no acknowledgement of any kind whatsoever. When there is, I am delighted!
 
coachclass
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

Not so fast. The police investigated, presumably got witness statements from the crew and if necessary from other passengers, and of course interviewed the passenger in question. No charges filed! To be "hauled downtown" so to speak out of vindictiveness is an abuse of power by the crew as I see it.

[Edited 2013-05-06 07:35:30]
 
shufflemoomin
Posts: 409
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions.

Don't be ridiculous. If it doesn't affect safety, I'm not just "complying". Regardless of what some flight attendants think of themselves, you do NOT have power or authority over other people. I wouldn't let a waiter in a restaurant tell me what to do and I certainly wouldn't let a flight attendant do it. If they're rude to me, I'll be rude right back. Only an idiot would call the police over someone being rude or swearing at them.
 
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United_fan
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 2:55 pm

" He and his lawyer sent Virgin a Letter of Demand, noting that he has since experienced, "depression, worry, and anxiety surrounding his detention by law enforcement." "

What a cry baby clown  
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 3:00 pm

The lack of corroboration by any independent witnesses is crucial here, and is why the crew should at the very least be facing jail time for abusing anti-terror powers.

This did not occur in a remote area of a parking lot, it occurred in a narrow and densely-packed tube of aluminium. The passenger is clearly an obnoxious PITA but that doesn't entitle staff to settle scores by abusing anti-terror powers.

On reflection, my earlier suggestions of jail time, dismissal and a heavy fine are insufficient for deliberate misuse of anti-terror provisions.

If the crew made false and vexatious claims of a security nature they should be immediately transported to Guantanamo Bay and afforded the same rights as other inmates there. I suspect that that would be the last time we would ever see an enraged crew misuse anti-terror provisions to teach an annoying passenger a lesson.

There are only two options here. Either the passenger committed security offences, or the crew committed air piracy by crying wolf so that he could suffer the indignity of being treated as a suspected terrorist.

Either way, someone should have ended up in jail.

It is utterly unacceptable that there are no consequences at present in the USA for deliberate abuse of anti-terror powers. It disrespects the memory of the real victims.

[Edited 2013-05-06 08:03:43]
 
richierich
Posts: 3618
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Wow. Well I doubt the crew would call the police on him for nothing... maybe calling the police was over the top for what he really might have done but I'm sure there had to be something... something is fishy...

And boo hoo, cry me a river, I'm sure he wasn't $500,000 traumatized by this ordeal. Some people have way too much time on their hands

The way it works is that you find a sleazebag lawyer who will represent you (there are plenty out there) and the amount of the lawsuit is greatly exaggerated to garner further attention and allow for a greater settlement. Nobody sues an airline for $5000 when lawyer fees alone will likely exceed that.
Once the media picks up on it, that is to the plaintiff's advantage because I can guarantee you VX just wants this to go away - they'll likely settle for closer to $50K and not $500,000. The lawyer gets his (sizeable) cut and the Benevivo will still net a decent amount from what should have been a non-issue. Getting asked questions by the cops certainly does not constitute a half-million dollar lawsuit and my feeling is that he was no saint on the aircraft either.

So if VX setltes for $50K, it's still $50K too much in my opinion, but that's the way the legal system works. VX could fight the case on principle but it would probably cost more in defense attorney fees (and the potential of further bad press) than it would cost just to settle. That's the American legal system for you.
None shall pass!!!!
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 89):
Don't be ridiculous. If it doesn't affect safety, I'm not just "complying". Regardless of what some flight attendants think of themselves, you do NOT have power or authority over other people. I wouldn't let a waiter in a restaurant tell me what to do and I certainly wouldn't let a flight attendant do it. If they're rude to me, I'll be rude right back. Only an idiot would call the police over someone being rude or swearing at them.
Quoting United_fan (Reply 90):
What a cry baby clown

Yep, the consummate douche. Wants to be a tough guy with the crew and then it's all "boo hoo hoo" once he realizes he brought a knife to a gun fight!

Maybe the crew was wrong and this was some sort of miscarriage of justice, but I have no problem with seeing this joker suffer. I don't care who you are, there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...he showed his lack of class and paid the price for it. I hope they start ejecting the people who insist on stuffing everything that they have ever owned into the overhead bins next.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1680
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
The passenger's attitude of entitlement is obnoxious, obviously. The airline would be within its rights to refuse to transport him ever again.

However, this lawsuit is not about soda. It's about vengeful cabin crew misusing actions intended for terrorists as a means of getting revenge against an obnoxious passenger. And that is not okay, and insults the memory of the victims of actual terrorism.

The shadow of 9/11 has left US aircrews with the power to settle vendettas with concocted claims of threats or suspicious behaviour.

There need to be checks and balances. And devastating consequences for airline employees crying "Wolf" to settle scores.

Obviously 99.999% of passenger hostility or threats are witnessed by other passengers.

So the US needs a federal "Abuse of Power" law stating that any case of a pilot offloading a passenger on the say-so of cabin crew without witness corroboration from passengers not employed by the airline will lose his pilot's licence forever, without any right of appeal, face a long custodial prison sentence for his own act of air piracy, and pay a seven figure fine. Similar sanctions should apply to the cabin crew involved.

At the moment, it's too easy for a flight attendant who is tired and annoyed by a passenger to settle the argument by invoking anti-terror measures. There is no disincentive.

But if it was going to cost the person their livelihood, their life-savings and a long stretch in jail, they just might conclude that no, this annoying passenger cannot be taught a lesson by being treated as a suspected terrorist.

And what happens when the passenger really does act in a way that is not appropriate, in an area that may not be in view of any other passenger, and then denies his actions? Should the crew just let them have their way out of fear of losing their job, their home, their families while they are sitting in jail? What you propose pretty much leaves the crew powerless to do anything other than serve Cokes. While some here would love that idea, I think it's insane. I'm a Flight Attendant. I have had the police meet the plane exactly twice in over 13 years. Once there was physical violence directed at myself and another passenger, the other time there was an express verbal threat of physical violence. As I read some of the posts here I wonder who these "power tripping FA's" are that everyone seems to encounter on every flight they take within the U.S. I don't often work with them. I have worked with some that have no business dealing with people, and I don't enjoy that any more than the passengers do, but none that get off on threatening and intimidating passengers. Maybe some are out there but I've yet to see them and I would certainly intervene if I had the misfortune of working with them. Your proposal is over the top ridiculous. On nearly every single flight I work there are one or two folks that insist on using their cell phones despite having been asked several times to put turn them off. People completely ignore the seat belt sign unless they themselves believe there would be a threat to their physical safety. Those are just little rules that people ignore, the point is, people want to do what they want to do. Flight Attendants are tasked by the FAA with ensuring compliance. Not every passenger responds favorably when being asked multiple times to comply. It's not surprising to see these kinds of stories from time to time given the sheer numbers of people flying these days - is it really hard to believe that the passenger in question may be at fault rather than the crew?
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 93):
Maybe the crew was wrong and this was some sort of miscarriage of justice, but I have no problem with seeing this joker suffer. I don't care who you are, there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...he showed his lack of class and paid the price for it.

Couldn't the exact same words also apply to the FA who got into an altercation over a soda? And remind us, who is the customer, and who is the service provider here?

The FAs got their "revenge" by calling the cops on him for a trivial issue that any customer service employee should be able to de-escalate. The pax is now getting his "revenge" by suing the airline.

Needless escalation? Yes. But both sides contributed to this. Only one side however is the customer. It is inexcusable that the service provider allowed things to escalate in the first place, and then pulled the safety / security card.
 
ASFlyer
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 91):
The lack of corroboration by any independent witnesses is crucial here, and is why the crew should at the very least be facing jail time for abusing anti-terror powers.

This did not occur in a remote area of a parking lot, it occurred in a narrow and densely-packed tube of aluminium. The passenger is clearly an obnoxious PITA but that doesn't entitle staff to settle scores by abusing anti-terror powers.

On reflection, my earlier suggestions of jail time, dismissal and a heavy fine are insufficient for deliberate misuse of anti-terror provisions.

If the crew made false and vexatious claims of a security nature they should be immediately transported to Guantanamo Bay and afforded the same rights as other inmates there. I suspect that that would be the last time we would ever see an enraged crew misuse anti-terror provisions to teach an annoying passenger a lesson.

There are only two options here. Either the passenger committed security offences, or the crew committed air piracy by crying wolf so that he could suffer the indignity of being treated as a suspected terrorist.

Either way, someone should have ended up in jail.

It is utterly unacceptable that there are no consequences at present in the USA for deliberate abuse of anti-terror powers. It disrespects the memory of the real victims.

This isn't about "anti-terror" policies? The police have always been available to intervene once on the ground if a passenger becomes abusive towards the crew. It's not as though they are available in the air. The rule about not intimidating or interfering with a crew member was not a result of 9-11, it existed long before that. I also would like to point out that the passenger doesn't provide any kind of witness corroboration either. You're going all kinds of crazy about something you know one side of - the passenger and his lawyers side. Maybe you should settle down and wait to hear the other side, which may or may not include witness corroboration.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 86):
Incorrect. It is not a required procedure, it is an option.

I missed that. Mea Culpa. That changes my opinion. The FA should have said "I can get that for you."

I still don't approve of the man verbally abusing the FAs. Two wrongs do not make a right...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 81):
If a FA points first at me and then at the screen I not not have to be "obedient" , neither by the conditions of contract nor by common sense. An aircraft is not a gimmick restaurant one goes to by choice.

Fair enough, I missed that the 'red system' was optional.

But due to low profits for airlines, the "gimmick" will become standard as many technologies have over the years. Not for F or J, but for Y.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 95):
Needless escalation? Yes. But both sides contributed to this.

Now that I know the red system was optional, I can agree to that. Both sides should have not escalated. Both are at fault.


But I still think the lawsuit was excessive. The man should have taken the $5k or $8k and toasted his easy victory. $500k is real money and a precedent VX cannot afford to start. The only winner will be the lawyers...

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 93):
there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...

Yea. Coffee is far more important.  

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 94):
And what happens when the passenger really does act in a way that is not appropriate, in an area that may not be in view of any other passenger, and then denies his actions?

Why go into what ifs? We are talking of this incident. The cops were called, they found nothing occurred that required further action from them, the captain said there was never a safety of security issues, the airline offered compensation.

I think this clearly suggests the scenario you describe above does not apply in this case.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):

I still don't approve of the man verbally abusing the FAs. Two wrongs do not make a right...

We don't know this happened for sure. I doubt the cops would have let him go just like that, and the airline offer $5k compensation, if indeed that was proven to be the case.

[Edited 2013-05-06 13:22:59]
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda

Mon May 06, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):
But due to low profits for airlines, the "gimmick" will become standard as many technologies have over the years. Not for F or J, but for Y.

You know, I wonder about that. If people start using the system heavily, it will just significantly add to the FA workload and create resistance from them. Analogous to the pax hitting the call button repeatedly and randomly throughout the flight. We all know how well THAT goes down with most FAs.

So I remain to be convinced this system will actually take off (no pun intended).

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