Quoting B747forever (Reply 47): Since when aren't members entitled to their own opinions? If he feels to stand up for Spirit, then that is his choices, the same way you choose to dislike them.

Correct I said I dislike them and a few people jumped on me. Like you said, I am entitled to my own opinion correct?

Quoting g500 (Reply 50): Correct I said I dislike them and a few people jumped on me. Like you said, I am entitled to my own opinion correct?

Not if it is negative!

Quoting g500 (Reply 50): Correct I said I dislike them and a few people jumped on me. Like you said, I am entitled to my own opinion correct

Really don't feel this is necessary, but anyway. You jumped on Mariner for defending the "greyhound of the skies" and went on wishing that NK fails. To wish that Spirit goes out of business which would result in thousands of people loosing their jobs is a bit strong just because you dislike the way they operate.

Quoting g500 (Reply 44):

And the same can be asked of you, why are you so anti "greyhound if the sky"? Do they somehow threaten your job, make stock that you own fall, take food off your table, what?

Mariner is simply defending the choice to take Spirit and defending that its a nice option to have around. If one wants a cheap weekend jaunt to Vegas where they can cram everything into a backpack or God forbid, have to buy an emergency last minute fare somewhere on limited funds, Spirit, Ryanair, etc are definitely options that many people appreciate when they need them. Much like Southwest, jetBlue are nice options if you're packing a few checkins and/or need the flexibility of multiple daily flights, or want some decent legroom on a long transcon. It's all about choice. Personally, I like having Walmart around for when I have to pick up many cheap items if I have time to waste in line and navigate a crowded, utilitarian store and large parking lot. But guess what? I also like having the Apple Store or Macy's around if I'm buying electronics or buying the girlfriend a birthday present. Its all about choice, different situations, different stores. The airlines are finding out that one size fits all isn't the case any more, and more power to the ones that find their niches, be it Allegiant or Maxjet.

Don't give Spirit one cent, that is absolutely your prerogative because that my friend, is capitalism, but don't wish to deny people, especially people that are not of means this choice just because you don't like their business plan.

Also, no, it won't be bring your own oxygen. The FAA, ADA, and OSHA require certain safety and comfort furnishings and installations be accessible to everyone, bathrooms, oxygen, many many other things included. I know that was some odd attempt at humor but regulation draws a defined line between whats necessary and is to be included and what doesn't have to be.

[Edited 2013-05-08 02:39:27]

let's be real here -- most people are making calls from their cell phones these days, especially when traveling. if you own a cell phone, it doesn't matter what the "toll" is.

this seems pretty smart and i'm surprised more companies don't start adopting the strategy.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 6): Frankly its wasted money, most people wouldn't pay for the call anyway.

That was my thought. Who cares?

Quoting mariner (Reply 43): It is called choice. People who don't want Spirit and what it offers can fly with someone else.

Exactly.

To others:
I'm not in Spirit's market. Why? For business they do not have the route structure and for leisure I fly with two young kids where their 'a la cart' model is more expensive than a well bought ticket on another airline. Cest la vie. I pay for my preferences and that is the beauty, it is by choice.

I have friends and relatives who love G4 and NK (I happen to live in an area where G4 is bigger, but in some parts of their business plan they do compete with each other). Three of my cousins and their significant others have learned to travel so light that they're not hit by the carry on fee.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 49): But it hasn't, e.g. in the past 3 yearsL 2012: 10,422,000 2011: 8,517,000 2010: 6,751,000 This "negative press" clearly hasn't reduced passenger numbers.

In fact, the press is building 'mindshare.' NK and G4 will both grow. While I'm not in their market today, perhaps later in life... As a consumer, choice is good.   

Quoting B747forever (Reply 52): You jumped on Mariner for defending the "greyhound of the skies" and went on wishing that NK fails. To wish that Spirit goes out of business which would result in thousands of people loosing their jobs is a bit strong just because you dislike the way they operate.

My thoughts too.

Why is g500 wishing people unemployment in this economy? Its not just NK, but the business that thrive due to their model (e.g., hotels and restaurants). I see my cousins far more due to cheap flights. I like that. So what if they keep a few sets of clothes at their parents so they don't have to pack? For example, a young doctor in training has no cash. But they still have family and friends they wish to fly and see... They keep clothes in LA, Portland, New York, and Florida as that is cheaper than bag fees (stored in relatives garages or closets). The under 35 crowd has adapted in interesting ways to bag fees...

This is building up loyalty to the ULCCs... I still participate in some of the cheap fun I did from grad school. Is the problem they're not building miles on AA, DL, UA or WN/B6 or another "established" airline? That's just capitalism as already noted...

Lightsaber

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): But it would make sense with the 801- number. Utah seems to be a US call center heaven.

One reason is that state has many Americans who speak another language, more per capita than any other state IIRC. The reason is LDS language lessons for international missionary work.

I am self employed. When attending the Consumer Electronic Show in Las Vegas this past January, I was able to book Spirit from ORD to LAS for 352.00 RT, flying out on a Monday afternoon and returning on a Friday afternoon, and including my carry on bag fee and an assigned reserved seat in an exit row with plenty of extra leg room. The next cheapest RT air fare on the same days on the 2 legacy carriers that server ORD-LAS and including WN (MDW-LAS) was pushing or exceeding 800.00. And frankly the Spirit return flight from LAS to ORD on the Friday left at a better time as I could stay at the convention center to past 3pm and still get back to ORD by Friday night. When I booked over 2 months in advance the AA 6pm flight was already sold out. This is after all the CES week with over 150 thousand attendees in Las Vegas..
If you shop around and have some flexibility I could get just comparable $350 fares on legacy carriers but I certainly did not want to go out to LAS a full 2 days earlier (that was the last weekend my daughter was home for year end holiday vacation) nor come back on the Friday night UA red eye or have to stay over Friday night in LAS and return the next day.

A little competition is not a bad thing!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): Utah seems to be a US call center heaven

Same reason as Omaha, Nebraska. large, educated workforce without any regional accent. Any call going into there goes to somebody who the caller can actually understand, unlike with some "offshore" call centers.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 40):

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 40): Quoting mariner (Reply 39): What have they done that is so terrible? Simple...charge people to haul their own bags on board, and not just charge them, but gouge them. On top of providing TERRIBLE customer service (the worst I've ever seen). On top of the glorious leg room on the A320's that, unless you're a midget, isn't even humanely comfortable.

By the time you get through your Spirit flight, you've probably paid at least as much, and maybe more, than if you went on a traditional airline. For example, I just pulled DFW-LAX-DFW on the 28th May returning 1st June. Spirit is $258; AA is $298 on a few flights at approximately the same time. Add $90 for carry on (@ $45 each way) and you're already more expensive than AA, and have to put up with 28" pitch, non reclining seats, no complimentary anything, etc.

Spirit is bait and swtich, pure and simple. And, btw, without being a snob, just watch security at an airport where Spirit has a lot of flights (DFW comes to mind, where they share a security entrance with Virgin America and US Airways) - the passengers tend to be VFR unsophisticated types who have no clue how badly they're being screwed.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

Jeff

I don't see what all the fuss is about. I agree with Spirit's decision. 800 numbers are useless now a days.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 59): By the time you get through your Spirit flight, you've probably paid at least as much, and maybe more, than if you went on a traditional airline

More accurate to look at averages than random one-offs, although there are often inherent difficulities with that. It is, of course, easier with, say, WN, B6, or G4. But yes, of course there are times when they'll be more expensive - as with most LCCs - and good job if they get people to pay it.  

Quoting superjeff (Reply 59): d, btw, without being a snob, just watch security at an airport where Spirit has a lot of flights (DFW comes to mind, where they share a security entrance with Virgin America and US Airways) - the passengers tend to be VFR unsophisticated types who have no clue how badly they're being screwed.

I am reminded of a pdf by NK about onboard selling opportunities, customer demographics, etc. From this, and in terms of income, 28.6% of its customers have an income of $60,000-74,999, with 53% of customers above $60,000. Presumably this is not 'trailor trash' level. With this in mind, it's not surprising that 82% own their own home. 34.9% of NK's customers are aged 45-60 and 26.1% 35-44.

Source: href="http://www.spiritair.com/content/Documents/en-US/>www.spiritair.com/content/Documents/OnboardAdvertisingOpportunities.pdf

[Edited 2013-05-08 07:54:09]

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 55): Why is g500 wishing people unemployment in this economy?

Quoting B747forever (Reply 52): and went on wishing that NK fails.

Both of you please show me where he said that? Cause he didn't.

If you want to throw that at me, go ahead. I have said that...and I am not sorry for it!

Quoting superjeff (Reply 59): By the time you get through your Spirit flight, you've probably paid at least as much, and maybe more, than if you went on a traditional airline. For example, I just pulled DFW-LAX-DFW on the 28th May returning 1st June. Spirit is $258; AA is $298 on a few flights at approximately the same time. Add $90 for carry on (@ $45 each way) and you're already more expensive than AA, and have to put up with 28" pitch, non reclining seats, no complimentary anything, etc.

  

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 61): More accurate to look at averages than random one-offs, although there are often inherent difficulities with that. It is, of course, easier with, say, WN, B6, or G4. But yes, of course there are times when they'll be more expensive - as with most LCCs - and good job if they get people to pay it.

First off its ULCC, LCCs wouldn't have these kinds of policies or the 28" pitch. You probably can get some deals if your lucky but usually the difference in fares are not worth the pitch and the customer service. Especially when you add in the cost of extra fees.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39): They offer some pretty good fares and they're upfront about their fees.

The only thing I will offer is that they were so "upfront" about their fees (not) that they inspired entire legislation to disallow how they were hiding the fees. At least that is what I remember, NK lead the way on fees and essentially hiding them.

Tugg

Quoting tugger (Reply 64):

And they instituted another fee because of it...

Quoting g500 (Reply 44): Why are you defending this "Greyhound of the sky" Mariner??? Do you work for them, own stock, what?

LOL

Quoting g500 (Reply 44): Like I said, I never have nor will I ever give Spirit one cent of my business, not under any circunstances And I hope more people don't either. cannot support this way of doing business what's next? bring your own oxygen

It's always irritating when people who don't like something try to get everyone to know about their unhappiness and to agree with them. Like TripAdvisor et al, where one bad night in a hotel means that the place should be burned to the ground! Lol If you don't like them, don't fly them. Why wish bad fortune on them just because you think you're way is the only way?

Quoting g500 (Reply 50): Correct I said I dislike them and a few people jumped on me. Like you said, I am entitled to my own opinion correct?

Well, the fact that we got it the first time, and the fact that you called out Mariner like he wasn't "towing the line", and the fact that you seem to have some sort of elitist mindset - well, anyhow, I think that sort of starts to explain why maybe there's a little pushback to you.

-Dave

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 63): First off its ULCC

Who said NK wasn't a ULCC? Think you misunderstood what was said.

[Edited 2013-05-08 09:53:02]

Quoting superjeff (Reply 58): Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): Utah seems to be a US call center heaven Same reason as Omaha, Nebraska. large, educated workforce without any regional accent. Any call going into there goes to somebody who the caller can actually understand,

Another reason for that state having had call centers for many years: The Strategic Air Command!

http://vndocs.docdat.com/docs/index-2254.html?page=22

"Television and radio ads soliciting subscriptions to the Wall Street Journal and several other publications give a free "800" number subscribers may call, "except in Nebraska." I have personal knowledge that Nebraska does have some commercial activity which might be well served by the Journal. Why won't the Journal pick up the tab for inquiring Cornhuskers? -- Steve L., Chicago

The Journal doesn't care about Nebraska because the Stra­tegic Air Command is headquartered there. But here, let me elab­orate a bit: "

Quoting superjeff (Reply 59): By the time you get through your Spirit flight, you've probably paid at least as much, and maybe more, than if you went on a traditional airline. For example, I just pulled DFW-LAX-DFW on the 28th May returning 1st June. Spirit is $258; AA is $298 on a few flights at approximately the same time. Add $90 for carry on (@ $45 each way) and you're already more expensive than AA, and have to put up with 28" pitch, non reclining seats, no complimentary anything, etc. Spirit is bait and swtich, pure and simple. And, btw, without being a snob, just watch security at an airport where Spirit has a lot of flights (DFW comes to mind, where they share a security entrance with Virgin America and US Airways) - the passengers tend to be VFR unsophisticated types who have no clue how badly they're being screwed.

You've done your research and determined with the additonal fees, NK is no longer the cheapest option thus you've now disproven the "bait and switch" theory.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 18):

With alot of people using cell phones, either you call toll free number or any area code you have to burn your minutes (if you don't have unlimited minutes plan). The only difference it is going to make it to those who don't have long distance plan in their landline which I think there are less people.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 67): Who said NK wasn't a ULCC? Think you misunderstood what was said.

I must have, maybe its a subtle difference between the queens english and american style english grammer.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 56): One reason is that state has many Americans who speak another language, more per capita than any other state IIRC. The reason is LDS language lessons for international missionary work.

they also often pay a lower prevailing wage to young women in exchange for allowing them to work from home while raising children.

I see it as simply responding to customers desires, which is cheap fares.
Lower operating costs allows Spirit to offer lower fares.

AA ORD

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 10): Well it could always be worse I suppose ... here in the Netherlands most customer service lines are 900 numbers that cost you an extra fee - anywhere from 10 to 25 cents a minute!! At least Spirit isn't going down that route ... yet.

It would not surprise me at all if NK went that route as one of their "optional" fees. Some of which really aren't "optional." The only way some of those "optional" fees are "optional" is if you opt not to fly them.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 17): NK would have looked sleazier (pun intended) than people see them now had they decided to use a 900 number.

And this would deter them why? Think of the ad campaign... A 900 number totally fits with their typical ad campaigns.

{

Quoting tugger (Reply 64):

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):The only thing I will offer is that they were so "upfront" about their fees (not) that they inspired entire legislation to disallow how they were hiding the fees. At least that is what I remember, NK lead the way on fees and essentially hiding them.}

Actually not quite. Every airline had always separated taxes, fees and also extras like baggage and drinks from the base fare (extras like baggage and drinks are still not affected by this legislation). Previously only the base fare is what people saw as the advertised "price" before this legislation, and this had been going on for decades, long before Spirit of Allegiant was around. The difference is that the legislation hit Spirit a little harder because their base fare was in general so much lower than most other airlines relative to extra fees and taxes that would be charged. E.g. A Spirit $29 dollar fare now having to be $54 dollars because of $25 dollars in taxes and fees looks way different than a previously $350 fare on say Delta now having to be $375 because of this same $25. Southwest, an airline that also was known for low last minute base fares, was also hit hard by this. Why do you think they were a party to having the decision reversed.

{

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 65):

And they instituted another fee because of it...}

The Government Consequences fee or whatever it's called had nothing to do with having to disclose taxes and fees. It was initiated because part of the legislation forced airlines to allow customers to get a full refund within 24 hours of purchasing their tickets. This really did effect previous revenue supply pricing chains that they had in place before.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 62): Both of you please show me where he said that? Cause he didn't.

I think the sum is implied:

Quoting g500 (Reply 7): I WILL NEVER EVER buy a ticket on that airline. NEVER. I'm sorry but i find that way of doing busines disgusting

Quoting g500 (Reply 44): And I hope more people don't either. cannot support this way of doing business what's next? bring your own oxygen

That implies G500 wants them out of business (employees unemployed).

Quoting 767driver (Reply 69): You've done your research and determined with the additonal fees, NK is no longer the cheapest option thus you've now disproven the "bait and switch" theory.

  

I have friends and cousins who fly the ULCCs as once one figures out the system, they can be really cheap to fly.
As I noted before, for myself they do not fit my price/performance criteria. There is nothing wrong with a different business model.

To others:
I do not understand the anger toward NK. They figured out how to show up as the lowest fare which is *all* the internet search engines care about. I've stopped using some of the search engines as they fill the screen with fares that are not of use to me.

I see a HUGE market demand for a new internet air fare search engine that is different in a few key factors.
1. Put in your FF preference (if any). This just puts 'same cost' airlines higher.
2. Put in a seat pitch preference (e.g., nothing below 34")
3. Put in a luggage preference (carry on, checked or not and how many bags)
4. IFE preference (and some sort of value, say $5).
5. Drinks (alcoholic and non and say put in a quantity per hour you likely consume).
6. Meal options (I'm not sure how to put this in)
7. Put in a price delta (or multiplier) where if F (or Y+) is available, you should be shown that fare option too.

And then search for the best fare for the service one desires!

Opaque pricing is not in the customer's favor. NK has simply responded to fares being 'out there.'

Lightsaber

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 15): Did you notice the priority line has a complaint number attached so you can complain abouts the cost of the priority line lol

That's a legal requirement for Premium Rate 09xx numbers in the UK...

Quoting scutfarcus (Reply 3): Ha! Not really surprised, however, these days it really doesn't matter. Who in the world pays a long distance bill anymore?

   Exactly

I never went to school for Business Management, but whoever thought of this, should be slapped. Not because of the tactic, but because MANY consumers are used to dialing 1-800-***-**** for a business. BUT.. OTOH, I despise 1-800 numbers since nowadays, they lead you to a robot who wants you to press 1 for English, 3 for sales, 5 for sales regarding this, and 7 for sales regarding this in the USA. In the old days of 1-800 numbers, you actually got a person on the other line. So, IMHO, it doesn't really make too much of a difference anymore, because, as mentioned above, I can call 1-800-BLA-BLAH and stay on the line 45 minutes, or I can call 262-384-5847 and not pay anything extra than I am paying right now.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 59): Spirit is bait and swtich, pure and simple. And, btw, without being a snob, just watch security at an airport where Spirit has a lot of flights (DFW comes to mind, where they share a security entrance with Virgin America and US Airways) - the passengers tend to be VFR unsophisticated types who have no clue how badly they're being screwed.

Businesses have been doing that for centuries, from P T Barnum's (attrib) "there's a sucker born every minute" through to Mencken's "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

Spirit isn't doing this out of altruistic motives, scattering low fares around the country like Jonny Appleseed scattering apple seeds across the land. Like Johnny Appleseed, Spirit is doing this to make money.

And doing it pretty successfully, it seems, which is what I admire. They have unlocked a whole market that was sitting there waiting for this to happen - remember Skybus? It is heavily borrowed from Ryanair's successful approach, which, in turn, is simply an extension of what Southwest started.

And since the comparison with Greyhound has been made, I checked out Greyhound's unbundling of fares - you don't just buy on all-in ticket anymore - just for starters $5 will get you a reserved seat and the front of the line. There are many more, as in the link - $1 fares? Yeh, right.

http://www.greyhound.com/en/RoutesAndServices/default.aspx

Knock it all you want, but there is a public demand for it and it provides growth, employment and profit. So, rather than Barnum or Mencken, I agree with President Coolidge - the business of America is business.

mariner

And there WERE business ethics...like treat your customers with respect while providing a decent product. NK doesn't do either...and yes, I have flown them.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 82): And there WERE business ethics...like treat your customers with respect while providing a decent product.

At a price. Why do you think I first flew Ryanair in 1992?

mariner

Quoting g500 (Reply 79): I have no idea where you got that I wanted Spirit to fail.

You said you "find that way of doing busines disgusting".

Why do you want a business model you find "disgusting" to succeed?

Quoting tugger (Reply 4): Pretty lame that they went to an "801" number, kind of like they are trying to fool some and hide it (I know they are not actually hiding it). It just seems a bit deceptive in a really stupid way. Though with that said maybe that is just where their call center is, I don't know.

I agree that it is deceptive, maybe they didn't plan it to be, but they should have thought that through, and I'm guessing they did so it would not bother people who don't realize it's not toll-free. I don't think an 800 number is necessary nowadays, with free long distance on any cell phone. My company has phone lines that call from a different state's area code, so it doesn't matter where their call center is, the number can be from a different base.

This is a different issue than for Ryanair though. It has always bothered me that the US and Canada seem to be the only countries with nearly universally toll free numbers for businesses, particularly since calling any number is basically free here anyway. Calling in Europe is expensive enough to normal numbers, not only do businesses not offer a tollfree number, many actually charge you!

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 2): Color me shocked...they're trying their best to mimic FR in that respect...

In Europe it's very common for airlines not to have a toll-free reservations number. For example, in Switzerland there are 800 numbers which are free, but almost all major carriers (not just LCCs) have 848 numbers where charges are up to the company. For example, to call Air France reservations from Switzerland is 11 centimes (about 12 US cents) a minute. To call LH reservations it's 15 centimes (about 16 US cents) a minute, and probably similar even to call LX from within Switzerland.

They sometimes have toll-free numbers for elite-level frequent flyers only.

[Edited 2013-05-08 14:57:28]