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Quokkas
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Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 8:43 am

In their advertising to attract staff, Emirates have traditionally emphasized that in addition to the basic wage, flying allowances and housing benefits, staff can expect to gain from a generous bonus as part of a profit-sharing scheme. This year, for the consecutive year, Emirates have decided not to award a bonus.

Despite the number of passengers carried by the airline rising by 15%, Emirates claims profit targets have not been met. While the airline profit rose 52% to AED3.1bn ($622m) during 2012-13, the Emirates group made $845m, an increase of 34%. Last year the airline blamed the increase in aviation fuel, while this year the justification for not paying a bonus is said to be due to "very challenging economic conditions."

I can imagine that the staff who work hard to make Emirates a success will be disappointed and that morale will take a hit. Perhaps Emirates believes that if there are any crew who decide to leave there are plenty willing to replace them. Ground service in DXB is reputably shocking already but what affect will this decision have on cabin service?

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emira...us-despite-huge-profit-501206.html
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emira...ees-profit-soar-by-52--501036.html
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Perhaps Emirates believes that if there are any crew who decide to leave there are plenty willing to replace them

Well, that *is* true, especially where they hire. Aren't crew on contracts?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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EK413
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 9:37 am

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Perhaps Emirates believes that if there are any crew who decide to leave there are plenty willing to replace them.

So sad but true in the end there's someone lining up to replace them.  

EK413
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aaexecplat
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 11:08 am

Huge mistake. You can't say that economic conditions a tough to justify not handing out bonuses while raking in large and growing profits. This will definitely impact morale and it will be visible to the passengers at some point. Traffic will eventually book away from EK and once you lose the luster, it is hard to compete. Nothing like a little self-sabotage....
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 11:14 am

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
Huge mistake. You can't say that economic conditions a tough to justify not handing out bonuses while raking in large and growing profits.

Not really. Its the way of the world really, and hardly a decision that is unexpected.

If this is not a contractual obligation then, its an easy target not to pay out.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
Nothing like a little self-sabotage....

It's their airline. If they choose to use their money that way, good for them.

As others have said, there's many more that would jump at the chance to work for them, bonus or not.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 11:27 am

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
This will definitely impact morale and it will be visible to the passengers at some point.

Most passengers in the back fly Emirates based on price, not onboard service. I don't think they'll care much for their twice-yearly flight home to see grandma if the crew doesn't smile as much or drops the meal tray a little harder compared to their previous flight.

Upfront might be another matter, but I suppose if some crew members elicit too many complaints, they'll be disciplined and the rest will get the message.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
to justify not handing out bonuses while raking in large and growing profits.

Wait until they announce how much bonuses execs will receive and how dividends the share holders will get. Sacrifices are tolerated when *everyone* endures them...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 3:57 pm

To those of us who are or have been EK cabin crew (I fortunately am in the latter category), this is nothing new. Their entire business model (as it relates to cabin crew) is built on high turnover. The working conditions are shockingly poor, you are overworked and underpaid, your bonus gets yanked from under you and so you up and leave. When you leave, some bright-eyed, bushy-tailed new recruit comes bounding out of the EK training college to replace you and continues providing the service the EK is famous for because they still don't know any better. It usually takes 6 months or so for the honeymoon phase to end, and then the new recruits end up just as jaded and frustrated as the rest of us.

A perfect example of EK treating staff poorly was the "new-hire appreciation programme" announced about a year or so after I started at EK. Under this initiative, for the first 6 months of employment, staff would not be able to bid for trips, swap for trips, have any travel benefits or be entitled to take leave. While it is customary not to have travel benefits on other airlines for 6 months, not being able to fly your own airline is silly. (I've worked for 2 others and this has never been the case.) And no bidding or swapping? Total rubbish. Kevin Griffiths (senior VP cabin crew) said that this was aimed at making crew appreciate all the benefits they would eventually have. Having met him personally twice, I wasn't at all shocked. I've never met someone more distant or out of touch with the people he manages than Kevin.

So no, I'm not at all surprised that EK has announced that there are no bonuses being handed out to staff this year. Frankly, about half of them don't get bonuses anyway because those are the first things to be suspended any time you are put on any sort of step of discipline, say for being absent.

Once again, EK dumps on their staff and in return expects them to keep slaving away. Surprised? Not at all.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:03 pm

If it is not in black and white, signed and notarized, it doesn't exist. I would go further and say even if you have a contract-good luck enforcing it on EK. The employees should have known this before they accepted the job. I am usually one to support employees in the industry. But... I think EK has been fairly transparent about what kind of organization they are... and what priorities and focus they have. It is hard for me to imagine anyone not knowing this before accepting a job with EK.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 5):
Upfront might be another matter, but I suppose if some crew members elicit too many complaints, they'll be disciplined and the rest will get the message.

The problem is that EK is notorious for rewarding the bad behaviour of their passengers. I can't tell you how many times I was asked by pax for a complaint form as they boarded. I would of course enquire what the nature of the problem was and if I could do anything to rectify the situation, and the response was always "oh, I want one just in case." They would always find something arbitrary to complain about or just make up something entirely, knowing that EK would reward them with miles and upgrades. Crew end up getting disciplined for nothing, and it just drives moral down even more rather than "sending a message" to the rest.

I, for instance, was disciplined for having told a passenger in First Class to stop smoking and subsequently extinguishing his cigarette for him when refused. Smoking is not allowed on planes. It is in fact illegal. Yet I was the one who was disciplined? What sort of message does that send to staff? (According to my manager, the passenger in question was given a complimentary F class ticket from KWI to DXB, by way of apologizing for the inconvenience. It was the only time I didn't have to worry about doing a KWI turn, as he was promised I would not be part of the crew.)
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:06 pm

Being promised a bonus and not receiving one has a huge impact. Fair enough if there is a loss its expected but when profits are excellent then it leaves a bitter taste. Other carriers in the region will no doubt take advantage and snaffle a few staff from EK.
 
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andrefranca
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
Perhaps Emirates believes that if there are any crew who decide to leave there are plenty willing to replace them.

Sad, but true, I know dozens who would fight for their lives to have a spot on EK here in Brazil.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 7):
you are overworked and underpaid

Welcome to the 21st century!
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:15 pm

I wonder of this reflects a deeper organizational problem? Too much growth too fast?
 
SCQ83
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
Huge mistake. You can't say that economic conditions a tough to justify not handing out bonuses while raking in large and growing profits. This will definitely impact morale and it will be visible to the passengers at some point. Traffic will eventually book away from EK and once you lose the luster, it is hard to compete. Nothing like a little self-sabotage....

I am not familiar with EK, but from my experience working in the region, this is quite typical in the Middle East, even for the largest national companies that pride themselves to have "Western" standards. That is one of the reasons (among many others) why in almost any government-owned company in Dubai or Qatar, you see an extremely high turn-over for Westerners even in Executive positions (very commonly less than 2 years in a position). Not trying to generalize, but the culture there is today's easy profit (you are working in a very uncompetitive environment), no one is looking at creating sustainable and durable companies.

Workers are understood as an expense and not an asset.

[Edited 2013-05-14 09:52:28]
 
mmedford
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 4:49 pm

Sounds like the EK slave ship is still at work; where the beatings will continue, until morale improves.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
TC957
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 5:14 pm

Anyone care to say how EK compares in staff matters to EY or QR ? Or the hotel industry ?
 
catiii
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
profit targets have not been met

So if the stated profit target for bonus payout was X, and they did X minus 5%, then they didn't meet their goal. If everyone knew what the rules were, then what's the big deal?

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
Huge mistake. You can't say that economic conditions a tough to justify not handing out bonuses while raking in large and growing profits.

You absolutely can. If you told employees that X was the goal, and then missed the goal (even while making a profit), then you certainly can say that.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 5:36 pm

Don't like it.... quit
 
nclmedic
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 3):
This will definitely impact morale and it will be visible to the passengers at some point.

At some point? It very much already is. Every time I've flown with EK (three times so far) their staff seem horrendously over-worked and under-experienced. This is, while I'm sure no fault of crew themselves, all contributing to a fairly negative experience for most passengers, especially in Y. Staffing seems to be at the absolute minimum as it is, so expecting poor crew to continue trying to provide a semi-decent service for ever-diminishing 'perks' and an increasingly intolerable work environment is just fantasy.
 
tonystan
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 15):
Anyone care to say how EK compares in staff matters to EY or QR ? Or the hotel industry ?


You're an Englishman (sorry, just assuming by your flag) so you should understand this analogy! Basically EK are the John Lewis or middle eastern airlines and Qatar without a doubt the absolute worst in how it treats its staff. I did my time at the latter, built up some great experience (which ironically is now no longer appreciated at my current airline as I'm merely a cost as opposed to an experienced asset) while there and my old man was even their chief captain of 330s for a time but my goodness few have anything positive to say about them. EK has always been and Etihad more recently viewed as the better carriers to work for!!!

As for me, delight I'm in Europe where at least I have protection from the whims of a fickle and unappreciative greedy management!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 17):
Don't like it.... quit


That's exactly what they want you to do. That's an incredibly dangerous business model to have, as you end up with a serious lack of experienced employees who are familiar with your product, loyal to your company and capable of providing your passengers with not only good service but a safe flight.

The inexperience among EK crew is rife and even dangerous, as evidenced by the crew member who ran amuck on the upper deck of the 380 screaming when there was a depressurization. This inexperience means that crew lack the skills to deal with situations that cannot be handled "by the book" and let's be honest, when does the airline industry ever present text book situations? Every day, every flight, every passenger is different and the only way that you learn how to safely handle yourself and care for your passengers is through experience, which the vast majority of EK crew members lack. Any time an EK crew member is presented with a situation that's not black and white, it takes 3-4 (if not more) of them to resolve it. Everyone is afraid to take any kind of initiative because they fear reprisals from the company if it's not handled by the book.

All of this is a result of EK relying on people doing just what you suggest - quitting. They are replaced by new, inexperienced crew and if a situation arrises that relies on the crew being well trained and experienced, the results could be fatal. The crew on AF 358 at YYZ back in 2005 did a brilliant job in a dangerous situation because they were both well trained and experienced. Were the same accident to happen at EK, there is no way that everyone onboard would have survived. Their crew simply aren't prepared to handle that. Why? Because they are poorly trained, often fatigued and largely inexperienced. Why? Because all of the good ones do just what you suggest - they quit.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 7):
To those of us who are or have been EK cabin crew (I fortunately am in the latter category), this is nothing new. Their entire business model (as it relates to cabin crew) is built on high turnover.

I guess that's why they have these cabin crew induction days every other month. I notice they're back in Australia doing the rounds and it's happening every two months or so now, plus, lots of ground jobs down here too.
 
EricR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Well, that *is* true, especially where they hire. Aren't crew on contracts?



When they mention "staff", it sounds like it may be more applicable to HQ related functions as opposed to flight crews. However, the article is not very clear on how they define "staff".
 
TC957
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 7:22 pm

I've read that EK spend about GBP1.5M a year having that huge A380 model in the roundabout as you approach the central tunnel at LHR. Plus goodness knows how much else in sport sponsorships for example.
Yet surely spending that or part of that on staff motivation would bring more benefits ?
Are EK thinking passengers will book with them again because of that A380 model or because their crew were brilliant and happy in their work in the flight they just had ?   
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 20):


Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 17):
Don't like it.... quit


That's exactly what they want you to do. That's an incredibly dangerous business model to have, as you end up with a serious lack of experienced employees who are familiar with your product, loyal to your company and capable of providing your passengers with not only good service but a safe flight.

Only folks who have Zero mgmt experience say "quit if you don't like it."

There are few things more painintheasstic than having to run short or with less experience than you need. The only time it's ok to encourage that type of idiocy is when you have an employee who has shitty attendance, and then only because you've already reached the point of detriment there.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 20):
and let's be honest, when does the airline industry ever present text book situations?

Why every time the FAA shows up for an audit, of course,  
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 24):
Only folks who have Zero mgmt experience say "quit if you don't like it."

There are few things more painintheasstic than having to run short or with less experience than you need. The only time it's ok to encourage that type of idiocy is when you have an employee who has shitty attendance, and then only because you've already reached the point of detriment there.

Agreed! And at EK, the vast majority of attendance issues are related to fatigue, although the company certainly doesn't see it that way. They tire you out, you get sick, you call out, you are then disciplined, morale crashes, you get fatigued/sick even faster because your morale is low and you're stressed, you call out - it's a sick cycle. And one EK does absolutely nothing to stop.
 
Planesmart
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 9:33 pm

How many posters currently, or have ever, flown with Emirates? For consistently good service, they leave the legacies for dead. And thats before we get onto IFE, cabins, aircraft age, etc.

If European and American legacy management had the balls to say NO, rather than caving to union pressure, automatically increasing salaries based on length of service rather than performance, actively managing under-performers, sharing financial performance, and a whole host of other good management practices, they would be better able to compete with those they are so critical about.

When airlines acquire fewer new aircraft, aircraft prices fall / new models are offered. When demand for funding falls (all other factors being unchanged), margins fall. When passenger numbers fall, ticket prices fall / extras are added. When activity falls / new best practices emerge, management and staff maintain the status quo for months or even years.

Would you rather Emirates cut staff and kept the bonuses?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting planesmart (Reply 26):
How many posters currently, or have ever, flown with Emirates? For consistently good service, they leave the legacies for dead. And thats before we get onto IFE, cabins, aircraft age, etc.

They're not perfect, but it will be a Sunny Afternoon in Hell before I fly AA, UA, or DL anywhere EK also goes, this is true.

But that doesn't have a thing to do with soft product or FAs in general. Do you know of a legacy that has real seat pitch in Y, ICE, free baggage, etc? To me, this is what keeps me off the US legacies in those markets. For similar reasons, I'd take KL or LH to the EU long before the same legacies even have their fares searched.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting planesmart (Reply 26):
How many posters currently, or have ever, flown with Emirates? For consistently good service, they leave the legacies for dead. And thats before we get onto IFE, cabins, aircraft age, etc.

I only fly Emirates where possible and have flown in all 3 classes across many sectors and I can tell you from now it can be very hit & miss, one of my worst experiences was in first on the BKK-SYD sector, disgruntled crew, who certainly looked overworked...I've found that EK can be consistently inconsistent especially with the fleet they send out of MEL. I almost always use EK 405 outbound and have found on 3 different occasions a varied product in J & F.

I feel for their CC because they're worked to the bone and it shows...I'll be on EK 405 in a few weeks & connecting to EK 201 thru to JFK, I'll be sure to see how this flight matches up with my last experience.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 24):
Only folks who have Zero mgmt experience say "quit if you don't like it."

I wasn't passing comment on the managerial merit of the decision, i'm not in a position to judge that - it could be good or it could be bad. However, if an employee doesn't feel they're getting fair compensation for their labour then they are perfectly entitled to try their luck elsewhere, that is basically how price (wage) discovery works.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 19):
As for me, delight I'm in Europe where at least I have protection from the whims of a fickle and unappreciative greedy management!

Such "protections" are an illusion. You pay for protections via decreased employment opportunities, which might go some way to explaining Ireland's 14% unemployment rate vs The UAE's 4%.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 29):
Such "protections" are an illusion. You pay for protections via decreased employment opportunities, which might go some way to explaining Ireland's 14% unemployment rate vs The UAE's 4%.

UAE has about 20% of local population, which is heavily subsidized; I am surprised it is even 4%. UAE is very far from a free-market economy (free-market economy is something different from not having taxes). Unemployed foreigners are not allowed to stay over. A very different situation from a democratic country like Ireland. You are comparing apples to oranges.
 
jayunited
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 11:09 pm

For those of you who have worked or are working for Emirates if Emirates working conditions are so bad why are there so many people lining up to work for them is it because people believe that the service that Emirates offers their customers is a direct reflection of how Emirates treats their employees? What are they promising recruits and new hires that continues to get them in the door and do the work conditions described in this thread apply only to cabin and/or ground staff also are Emirates pilots subjected to the same work rules and if so are they seeing the same turn over as describe in earlier in others post?
 
romeobravo
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Tue May 14, 2013 11:27 pm



Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 30):
UAE has about 20% of local population, which is heavily subsidized; I am surprised it is even 4%. UAE is very far from a free-market economy (free-market economy is something different from not having taxes). Unemployed foreigners are not allowed to stay over. A very different situation from a democratic country like Ireland. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm well aware of the demographics of the UAE. Low/zero taxes is not something different from free market, it is a component of a free market. UAE also has loose employment laws which is also a component of a free market.

None of that detracts from the point though. "Protections" simply add overhead to employment which discourages job creation and puts downward pressure on wages and benefits, so you're not really being protected from anything - you're paying a price.

If, as alluded to in reply 4 and 16, there were no contractual obligations for a bonus then there's not really any violation to be protected from anyway.

I'm not suggesting the comparison of Ireland to the UAE is a perfect comparison, but it's rich to champion Europe's labour regulations whilst the continent is mired with devastating levels of unemployment.

[Edited 2013-05-14 16:28:03]
 
questions
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 12:06 am

1) How does the program work? What performance targets must be met in order for the bonus to kick in? Throughout the year how us performance against those targets communicated?

2) Did the executive team receive bonuses?
 
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DalDC9Bos
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 3:40 am

I have read many of the posts about the rather hellish experiences of cabin crew at EK. The high turn over for cabin crew, the displeasure of staff after their honeymoon period, and the crew's subsequent inability to make impromptu decisions not covered explicitly in the FA handbook makes me wonder why have their not been more safety incidents regarding EK? I mean slides blown, failed or messed up evacuations, injured passengers by unsecured cabin items, etc. Maybe because I am in the US, but I have not heard of many incidents. My view is that its a strong 'govt' airline that has many ups on other world airlines and has an incredibly solid safety record.

Taking this in another direction, I wonder about other staff groups at EK. How are mechanics treated? Is it in a similar way. The potential for disaster is much more prevalent based on the action or inaction of mechanics, rather than the actions of cabin crew. Again, in the West to me EK seems to be a safe airline with safe flying aircraft. They are not falling apart left and right, executing emergency landings daily, or running like pre-demise Valuejet.

How much of their ruling with an iron first really impacts flight operations and safety? If it is not, is this an issue that will eventually happen or is this way of governance from the top to the bottom sustainable in the long-run because it is so heavy-handed?
 
cschleic
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 17):
Don't like it.... quit

That's really easy to say, and I hear it all the time. That attitude puts all responsibility on the employees. And it's just a statement to stop the discussion, rather than get at the issue. But companies shouldn't advertise a potential bonus, or other benefit, if it is seldom paid, just like they shouldn't advertise a service to customers that's rarely provided. If a bonus is based on corporate goals, management can set ridiculously high goals that can't be met or sustained. That's bad management. It's also deceiving. And what does management think of employees who deceive them? Fire them, or worse.
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 31):
For those of you who have worked or are working for Emirates if Emirates working conditions are so bad why are there so many people lining up to work for them is it because people believe that the service that Emirates offers their customers is a direct reflection of how Emirates treats their employees? What are they promising recruits and new hires that continues to get them in the door and do the work conditions described in this thread apply only to cabin and/or ground staff also are Emirates pilots subjected to the same work rules and if so are they seeing the same turn over as describe in earlier in others post?

That's exactly the problem. If you're on the outside looking in, all you see are the shiny planes, the reputation for outstanding service, etc. The vast majority of people lining up on EK's doorstep are young too, and frankly a bit naïve. (I was one of them.) I was working for a legacy in the US at the time and thought for sure the grass would be greener at EK. It slipped my mind that the desert is actually full of sand. No grass...

The recruits are shown shiny PR videos and told how fabulous and glamorous it all will be. They are told they can even bid for trips (which is technically true, but rubbish since EK's bid system doesn't work and hands you whatever it wants) and that they can swap with other staff (also rubbish, since most swaps are blocked by legalities such as gender, nationality or some other arbitrary factor) and that they will live in fabulous apartments. No mention is made that the apartments are either a) out in the desert or b) in Sharjah... You're told that you'll see the world and also have a great life in Dubai. They don't mention that you spend most of your time at airport hotels out of the city (even on 48 hour stops at SFO, for example) or that you'll have minimum rest in Dubai between flights and be too tired to get out of bed and brush your teeth, never mind go out on a desert safari. In short, you're sold one thing and given another and you don't realize what you've done until it's too late.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 26):
How many posters currently, or have ever, flown with Emirates?

I didn't just fly with them, I worked for them. I spent two years flying for them, which was roughly 1 year and 364 days too long.
 
questions
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 7:00 am

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 9):
I, for instance, was disciplined for having told a passenger in First Class to stop smoking and subsequently extinguishing his cigarette for him when refused. Smoking is not allowed on planes. It is in fact illegal. Yet I was the one who was disciplined? What sort of message does that send to staff?

And how were you expected to handle the situation differently?
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 7:17 am

Quoting questions (Reply 37):
And how were you expected to handle the situation differently?

I would love to know, honestly. I was told that I should have been more conscious of who the customer was (some rich Kuwaiti, and we were going to Kuwait - which apparently implies that the no-smoking laws do not apply to you...) but more importantly, what was I doing in First anyway? (I was Economy crew at the time. Apparently that implies an inability to handle safety issues infront of the curtain...)

Emirates is all about keeping the customer happy, even when they're breaking the law. Another great example, their "drunk passenger" policy. At US and European airlines, a passenger who appears to be intoxicated is cut off. Period. EK trains crew to first dilute, then delay, then distract and then finally, deny. Notice that the first three steps involve giving an already intoxicated passenger more alcohol? It's all about keeping the passenger happy, no matter what the circumstances. I know the old mantra is "the customer is always right" and I'd agree 90% of the time. However when the customer is breaking the law or behaving poorly, then they are no longer right. Except at Emirates. There, they are always right.
 
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 38):
Another great example, their "drunk passenger" policy. At US and European airlines, a passenger who appears to be intoxicated is cut off. Period. EK trains crew to first dilute, then delay, then distract and then finally, deny. Notice that the first three steps involve giving an already intoxicated passenger more alcohol?

That's crazy.

Are Qatar and Etihad any different as to how they treat their employees?

Do you fly for another airline now?
 
ojas
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 8:09 am

I really am amazed how reactions are pouring in even without knowing the actual facts. Now since the issue has steered towards the working conditions, let's clarify a few things:

Staff bonus:-

* As simple as it is, a profit target is set at the beginning of the financial year of X amount. If that is met a bonus is delivered, if it is not met there is no bonus. I would like to know what exactly is unfair in this clause.

* From what information I gather, it is not a contractual obligation that a bonus needs to be paid. So for all practical purposes it is out of any legal realm over here.

Noting the above two, I personally do not see any logic to a "hate" wave being generated against EK for not "paying bonuses". From what information I gather, an employee is duly paid whatever he/she is entitled to.


Now for the other aspects which PanAm747LHR is pointed out

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 7):
Their entire business model (as it relates to cabin crew) is built on high turnover. The working conditions are shockingly poor, you are overworked and underpaid, your bonus gets yanked from under you and so you up and leave.

Read the above, this accusation is is false.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 7):
While it is customary not to have travel benefits on other airlines for 6 months, not being able to fly your own airline is silly.

Again false information. During the first 6 months, you are entitled to an ID50 ticket for yourself. It's just that you are not entitled to fly subload. And this too is explicitly stated in the contract, so again the accusation is pointless.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 36):
The vast majority of people lining up on EK's doorstep are young too, and frankly a bit naïve

Are you implying all people lining up to work for EK/and that who work for EK are naiive and the ones who left are sensible?

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 36):
The recruits are shown shiny PR videos and told how fabulous and glamorous it all will be. They are told they can even bid for trips (which is technically true, but rubbish since EK's bid system doesn't work and hands you whatever it wants) and that they can swap with other staff (also rubbish, since most swaps are blocked by legalities such as gender, nationality or some other arbitrary factor) and that they will live in fabulous apartments. No mention is made that the apartments are either a) out in the desert or b) in Sharjah... You're told that you'll see the world and also have a great life in Dubai. They don't mention that you spend most of your time at airport hotels out of the city (even on 48 hour stops at SFO, for example)

Was EK obligated to give you downtown hotels only? Don't you think it is wiser to have hotels near to the airport so that they can be ushered to the hotel as quick as possible so that they get maximum rest. At a layover point isn't sufficient rest more desirable than sightseeing opportunities?

I'm sorry, your rants are more of an ex-employee getting back at EK by posting half baked information. Reality, is different.

[Edited 2013-05-15 01:26:08]
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
Read the above, this accusation is is false.

Without a doubt, the ME3 have no interest in crews sticking around very long. The rest may be subjective but of course they want high turnover. US/EU carriers would probably do the same if they could.

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
Are you implying all people lining up to work for EK/and that who work for EK are naiive

Absolutely, but this is true for a lot of jobs. They're sold a bill of goods, and once on site, they realize reality is quite different.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 15):
Anyone care to say how EK compares in staff matters to EY or QR ? Or the hotel industry ?

QR are far and away the worst. I met a friend of a friend who was ex-Jet Airways and joined QR back in 2009 - she lasted less than a year and hightailed it back to Jet.

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
Was EK obligated to give you downtown hotels only? Don't you think it is wiser to have hotels near to the airport so that they can be ushered to the hotel as quick as possible so that they get maximum rest. At a layover point isn't sufficient rest more desirable than sightseeing opportunities?

To be fair EK does also put crew at downtown hotels and non-airport hotels, he just cherry picked the SFO hotel, which actually is rather annoyingly far from town and just a 'okay' hotel. Our crew hotels in Toronto, Sydney, Singapore, New York for instance are all not airport hotels. SYD is one of my favourite hotels actually.

There is some truth to the working conditions at EK in that it can get tough, but its usually on bottom bid months and it;s not constant.

The more senior crew in Biz and First do things by the book, but have also learned to deviate when necessary and this is especially true if you get a great Purser. The junior crew are kept on a tight leash though, and I agree that it sometimes shows in service delivery.

PanAm747LHR, out of curiosity did you leave as a GR2 or did you upgrade? I found that I had a much better quality if life once I started working in Business, and had much more control over my schedule too. Economy was tough though, especially those night/early morning turns to the Indian subcontinent. Everyone is just grumpy at that time night, with most of the pax boarding at DXB having just transited from long hauls and are completely hosed from the get go.
Keep Discovering
 
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AirIndia
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting Quokkas (Thread starter):
In their advertising to attract staff, Emirates have traditionally emphasized that in addition to the basic wage, flying allowances and housing benefits, staff can expect to gain from a generous bonus as part of a profit-sharing scheme. This year, for the consecutive year, Emirates have decided not to award a bonus.
Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
From what information I gather, it is not a contractual obligation that a bonus needs to be paid. So for all practical purposes it is out of any legal realm over here.

This is taken from a job posting on www.emiratesgroupcareers.com -

Quote:
Salary & Benefits:

We offer an attractive tax-free salary, paid in Dirhams, the local currency of the UAE. The Dirham is linked to the Special Drawing Right of the International Monetary Fund and it has been held constant against the US dollar since the end of 1980 at a mid-rate of approximately US$1="Dh3.66." Besides generous travel benefits normally associated with an airline, this managerial role also has excellent leave and health care packages, accommodation, power and water paid for, along with transport benefits, life insurance and other employee benefits making the role attractive to high performers. By viewing the 'Dubai Lifestyle' section in the careers website you can also consider the many benefits of Dubai as a location to live and work in

There is definiteliy no promise of a bonus...

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
Are you implying all people lining up to work for EK/and that who work for EK are naiive and the ones who left are sensible?

True, naive people cannot build a brand and service like EK has.....
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting questions (Reply 39):
Are Qatar and Etihad any different as to how they treat their employees?

As said before, QR are much, much worse. While I'm not condoning Emirate's employment practices, in comparison to their regional competitors EK is the best employer.

[Before someone jumps down my throat, I draw your attention to that massive qualifier in that sentence]
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Quokkas
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
I personally do not see any logic to a "hate" wave being generated against EK for not "paying bonuses".

I agree that there is no logic to any "hate" waves. My question is whether a bonus not being paid will have an impact on staff morale and possibly quality of service. If staff do leave, then they need to be (an can be) replaced but that might mean less qualified staff filling in. I recall that the time for staff induction was reduced some time ago to overcome the problems with rapid growth. Combine rapid growth with accelerated staff turnover and the situation could mean even less time for training.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 43):
There is definiteliy no promise of a bonus...

I note that the general staff benefits page page has been altered. It previously had a reference to a profit sharing scheme that eligible staff could benefit from. It stated that payments in the past had "ranged between 2 and 14 weeks." There is still a reference to the profit sharing scheme under the sub-heading Cash Elements on the page related to Cabin Crew for example:

Quote:
Profit Share Scheme
The Company operates a profit-share scheme based upon the profit of the Company for the financial year. A qualifying period is applicable.

Similar wording appears on the specific pages related to other areas of employment., e.g. ground operations.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
777way
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 36):
or that you'll have minimum rest in Dubai between flights and be too tired to get out of bed and brush your teeth,

how do the crew cope with this? especially late night/early morning flights.
 
catiii
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 46):

how do the crew cope with this? especially late night/early morning flights.

In the way anyone else copes with it, by just doing do. Minimum rest in DXB is no different than minimum rest in IND.
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 2:13 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 31):
For those of you who have worked or are working for Emirates if Emirates working conditions are so bad why are there so many people lining up to work for them is it because people believe that the service that Emirates offers their customers is a direct reflection of how Emirates treats their employees? What are they promising recruits and new hires that continues to get them in the door and do the work conditions described in this thread apply only to cabin and/or ground staff also are Emirates pilots subjected to the same work rules and if so are they seeing the same turn over as describe in earlier in others post?

...Well the answer is (almost) in the question. I just saw a QR crew in BRU. All of them were South-East Asians. And it's far from being the first time I notice that. QR has a very very bad reputation when it comes to cabin crew working conditions especially the noxious atmosphere in Doha.

When I look at EK, QR or even EY cabin crews, It's easy to notice that things have changed. 10-15 years ago, it really was a mix of nationalities and you could really see people coming from Western Europe, Australasia, North-America, Middle-East... and of course other parts of the developing world.
Now all these "Western" nationalities seem to have literally "escaped" or fled, and all you have is people from Philippines, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Belarus, Bangladesh, Romania and Serbia. All credits to them because they certainly do a great job considering the very difficult environment they have to work with.
But these GCC airlines need to understand that the level of life and wages is also increasing in these countries and in the future the hiring conditions won't be that interesting anymore.

The limit of that system will be reached sooner than we all might think.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
tonystan
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RE: Emirates Say No Staff Bonus (again)

Wed May 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 29):
Such "protections" are an illusion. You pay for protections via decreased employment opportunities, which might go some way to explaining Ireland's 14% unemployment rate vs The UAE's 4%.

Well actually, I work in the UK! Secondly, Ireland's economic problems are not exactly comparable here, finally it is very difficult to enter the UAE as a resident without employment visas. You will find the 4% figure you show is simply because once you have lost your job you are thrown out of the country. Only UAE nationals tend to show in the unemployed figures and lets face it, there are far fewer of them than expat workers! Having said that I was shocked last time I was in Dubai and a man approached me begging! Beginning to think DXB has become to big to control.

Of course I am well aware that if the UK leave the EU protection to its employees with drop dramatically!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.

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