tortugamon
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Mon May 27, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 94):
His big mate is in jail
Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 99):
Raisin is grape in french,

Hilarious stuff guys. I like it. Thanks for sharing all of the information. Cannot wait for first flight.

tortugamon
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Mon May 27, 2013 1:07 pm

Then il will be time for some good "raison" based beverages with some tiny tniy bubbles ... (not the huge subprime bubble I mean   )

For sure I can also save some bottles for Cseries First Flight, 787-9 first flight, Interjet SSJ delivery, MRJ ?

It's a hard life !
 
tortugamon
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Mon May 27, 2013 1:48 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 101):
Interjet SSJ delivery

Ok, now you are just looking for un raison a boire rather than a raison d'être .

tortugamon
 
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EPA001
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Mon May 27, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 93):
You can find the interview here:

http://www.aeronewstv.com/en/article...24-a350-first-flight-imminent.html

Very interesting information!

Indeed. Thanks for posting.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 91):

The APU run has been completed.

So far everything seems to go quite smoothly. A fly-by during the Paris Air Show is still very much a possibility.  
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Mon May 27, 2013 7:46 pm

About the recent overweight discussion, here is Aspire Aviation again with its 3 tonnes overweight claim:

Quote:
For instance, Aspire Aviation‘s multiple sources at Airbus and people familiar with the matter all confirmed that MSN001, the first A350-900 ever built, is 3 tonnes (6,613.9lbs) overweight against the aircraft’s manufacturer weight empty (MWE) of 115.7t, or 1.1% of its 268t maximum take-off weight (MTOW).
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Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 11:04 am

Hello folks
Some news of MSN5000

http://avia.superforum.fr/t1358p440-airbus-a350xwb#37482

Have a nice day
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 11:48 am

Wing load test completed at 115 or 125% ?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 105):
Some news of MSN5000

This should then be OK for the first flight tests. I don't think there is any hard limits for the flight tests, here what Tom wrote when we had the subject up last time:

A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 6 (by ManuCH Nov 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)#61

Quoting ferpe (Reply 60):
Great, now which of these tests does A have to do minimum before they can fly MSN001?

Technically, none. MSN001 will fly as an experimental, which gives you very wide latitude. However, you'd fly with a very restricted flight envelope if you were being prudent and didn't have any of the static frame data yet. It would be vaguely similar to the situation with 787 ZA001 after they found the side-of-body problem...they could fly but not with the full flight envelope.

Tom.
Non French in France
 
ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Wing load test completed at 115 or 125% ?

125% apperently, should be enough for flying the aircrafts full envelope in flight test. Now A can thread to ultimate load (150%) ever so cautiously.
Non French in France
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 11:59 am

I believe Bombardier also said that 125% is enough for a first flight. At least you know for sure that the wing will not break after takeoff  

150% can be done later, I believe the A380 wing load test at 150% was done almost a year after first flight (and failed at 145%).
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ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 109):
I believe Bombardier also said that 125% is enough for a first flight. At least you know for sure that the wing will not break after takeoff  

Well it should not  . Actually the test director said the first flight is one of the easiest for the tests, there is almost no load factors taken and you fly well within the speed and height envelope with 2 engines  Wow! . It gets exiting later on when you go to full load factors, stalls, one engine take-offs and landings, and what have you.

Further the test is 125% of the calculated highest load the aircraft will ever theoretically be subjected to, normally that is in a thunderstorm gust (positive g) or a very very hard landing (negative g) if I recall the discussions of late.
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 12:11 pm

So when do you hit 150% load? When you nose dive the airplane?
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ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 111):
So when do you hit 150% load? When you nose dive the airplane?

You don't in an Aibus as long as the FBW is in normal or one of the degraded modes with flight envelope protection still active (can remember all but alternate is one of them), the active protection only gives you 2.5G max IIRC. In a Boeing or other aircrafts which does not have hard envelope protection (B makes it harder to pull Gs over the limit but you can still if you pull REALLLY hard) you can reach 150% of limit load, it would typically be in a pull up close to ground from a total mess up of your flying (you have to have lost it completely to be forced to pull that hard).

Such flying can be compared to your panic braking when you realize you will hit something hard, you basically stamp as hard on the brakes as you can and let the car do the rest. When you pull to 150% of limit load you in more cases than not has stopped flying long before that.

We shall we aware that a normal flight probably uses less than 30% of limit load or so.

[Edited 2013-05-28 05:41:23]
Non French in France
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 12:43 pm

On the 787 I read that it's 150% for 3 seconds.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 104):
About the recent overweight discussion, here is Aspire Aviation again with its 3 tonnes overweight claim:

Aspire's claim of an MWE of 118.7t for MSN 001 would track with statements from Airbus.

In June 2008, Airbus noted target MWE for the A350-900 had risen from 113.5 to 115.7t (with a concurrent rise in MTOW of 3t to compensate).

In June 2011, A350 Chief Engineer Gordon McConnell was quoted in Aviation Week & Space Technology that the MWE for the first developmental frames had risen by an additional 3 tons, which would put it at 118.7t and the same as Aspire's figures.

[Edited 2013-05-28 07:52:32]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 2:15 pm

Stitch do you have any link for the june 2008 MWE ?
Thanks
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 115):
Stitch do you have any link for the june 2008 MWE?
Here you go

Quote:
Analysis of the global finite element model, along with input from systems suppliers that has provided a more accurate weight for the system equipment and installation, has established that the A350-900's manufacturer's weight empty is 2.2t greater than the 113.5t target and (A350 Chief Engineer Gordon) McConnell expects "similar deltas" for the -800 and -1000.

"We've increased the MTOW by 3t across the family to maintain the payload/range capability," says McConnell. The previously quoted MTOWs for the -800, -900 and -1000 were 245t, 265t and 295t, respectively.


The actual figure was 115.7 tons (113.5 + 2.2), so that puts Aspire's 118.7t figure for MSN 001 on target based on Mr. McDonnell's subsequent comment that OEW rose another 3t between 2008 and 2011 for the early frames.

[Edited 2013-05-28 07:57:11]
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 2:43 pm

Thanks
I got this one
But for the 114.2 t MWE ?
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 117):
But for the 114.2 t MWE ?

I'd rounded up 113.5t to 114t then added the 2.2t to get 116.2 tons. The specific figures were a target MWE of 113.5 tons, with that increasing by 2.2 tons by 2008 (to 115.7 tons) and by another 3 tons by 2011 (to 118.7 tons) for the early frames.

[Edited 2013-05-28 07:56:15]
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 3:02 pm

All right

I've got +2.2 t corresponding with +3 t MTOW
+2.3 t acknowlegded in PAS2011

And I don't round up  

So far for me no real weight problem

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the 21500lbs overweight ZA001 was against an already much increase MEW since the beginning of the program (see Airbus 787 lessons learnt), so the 787 is still overweight vs the initial concept, and you can see it in the race for the thrust increase ... and the maybe not so straighforward 787-10X

Thanks
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Tue May 28, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 119):
Everyone seems to have forgotten that the 21500lbs overweight ZA001 was against an already much increase MEW since the beginning of the program...

Some of that OEW growth was driven by airline requirements, who still wanted the original range, just now with higher payload weights as they moved from the original 8-abreast specification to 9-abreast. The 787-9 was especially affected by this, eating into the MTOW overhead Boeing had planned for the 787-10.

We've seen this with the A350-1000, as well. When Airbus increased the performance, they noted OEW would also rise by 2.4 tons due to the heavier engines, structural reinforcements to support a 10t increase in MTOW and the changes to the wing.
 
abba
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 5:46 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 110):
It gets exiting later on when you go to full load factors, stalls, one engine take-offs and landings, and what have you.



Sure, landings are one of the most critical phases of flight. Better not run an unnecessary risk early on in the flight test program. Avoid landing after first flight and only do such dangerous thing later on  




(Sorry Ferpe - I just couldn't resist. I guess that "one engine" also covers landings - I just didn't see that at first)
 
swallow
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 114):
Aspire's claim of an MWE of 118.7t for MSN 001 would track with statements from Airbus.

How does the 359 MWE of 118t compare with that for the 333 and 343, which it replaces?
The grass is greener where you water it
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 7:24 am

A330-300 is 109 t, really light indeed (probably lighter than the smaller 787-9).
But the A330-300 is a 300PAX (36+264) 2 class bird whereas the A350-900 is a 315 PAX bird (48+267 PAX)
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 8:28 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 112):
You don't in an Aibus as long as the FBW is in normal or one of the degraded modes with flight envelope protection still active

All right, I was more thinking of a "shit hits the fan" situation.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 112):
can remember all but alternate is one of them

This is one for the bookmarks: http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm
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Ruscoe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 10:18 am

I'm curious to know if Airbus are still doing away with the Li ion battery, considering that Boeing have found a solution, and also it must complicate things starting flight testing with one type of battery and at some stage changing to another.

Surely just putting their Li ion battery in a box like Boeing would be the quickest, cheapest and easiest. I can't imagine it was possible to patent the Boeing solution.

Ruscoe
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 10:44 am

Swapping should be relatively easy because Airbus developed their plan B already in 2011.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 125):
Surely just putting their Li ion battery in a box like Boeing would be the quickest

Boxing the battery is not the problem, the li-ion battery puts the EIS at risk because there is a chance that the authorities will take more time to review the battery construction.

[Edited 2013-05-29 03:45:44]
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 10:55 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 125):
I'm curious to know if Airbus are still doing away with the Li ion battery, considering that Boeing have found a solution, and also it must complicate things starting flight testing with one type of battery and at some stage changing to another.

Boeing did not find any solution imho. By using a containment construction for smaller battery cells, and with some additional measures they have minimised the risks and consequences of a battery fire greatly. But they did not find a real solution, nor the direct cause of the battery fires or batteries overheating.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 125):
Surely just putting their Li ion battery in a box like Boeing would be the quickest, cheapest and easiest. I can't imagine it was possible to patent the Boeing solution.

That is exactly why Boeing chose this construction to "fix" the problem. I agree with you that such a solution (making the batteries smaller and containing them better) could be worthy of a patent.

[Edited 2013-05-29 04:01:32]
 
tortugamon
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 12:08 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 127):
making the batteries smaller

I have read that they have added space between the cells, controlled the range and rate of charge, but this is the first that I have heard that the batteries are actually smaller.

tortugamon
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 128):
I have read that they have added space between the cells, controlled the range and rate of charge, but this is the first that I have heard that the batteries are actually smaller.

I think that's right, tortugamon - no change in the battery size. But I believe that they have fitted insulation between the battery cells (previously there was none). Just 'instinct' on my part, but I think that that lack of insulation could very possibly have been the root of the problem?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
tortugamon
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 129):
but I think that that lack of insulation could very possibly have been the root of the problem?

I have no info to say anything different but I know that It certainly did not help the thermal runaway dynamics.

tortugamon
 
knoxibus
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 3:05 pm

In order to stay on topic, just to let you know that MSN 001 has just entered the weighting hall next to the Final Assembly Line. hopefully some spotters will catch her, as soon as she moves out.
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Wed May 29, 2013 3:22 pm

maybe some spotters can snap a shot of the weighting device screen  

Thanks
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 125):
I'm curious to know if Airbus are still doing away with the Li ion battery, considering that Boeing have found a solution, and also it must complicate things starting flight testing with one type of battery and at some stage changing to another.

According to the following link, the Version at EIS will not have lithium ion batteries. But for the second version in 2015 or 2016 (?) a switch is already planned. Airbus is working closely together with the FAA about that:
(sorry, in German only) http://www.aerotelegraph.com/airbus-...nen-batterien-statt-nickel-cadmium
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 132):
maybe some spotters can snap a shot of the weighting device screen

Apparently Airbus are following the 'ancient' tradition - the A350 is indeed overweight! Only about three tons, though, not nearly as bad as the 787 was at the same stage  :-

"According to Aspire Aviation‘s sources at the world’s largest plane-maker, the A350-900 is around 3 tonnes overweight although more change in part designs will enable more weight savings to be realised as Airbus begins flight-testing the airplane from mid-2013 onwards, which should be carried out carefully in order to prevent unintended consequences in overburdening the supply chain with change orders.

"Excessive weight remains an issue, although the situation is allegedly much less dramatic than in the case of the 787."


http://bloga350.blogspot.com.au/2012...xwb-overweight-estimated-in-3.html
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 7:49 am

The weight should be under control from airplane number 17 (MSN17).
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 9:02 am

I have 4 updates from a little bird.

1) MSN002 FAL start imminent

This was reported earlier, Airbus is currently preparing FAL start for MSN002.

2) MSN004 wings sent to Bremen a few weeks ago

There were some reports in the previous thread about "another wing shipment"; these were for MSN004 and are now in Bremen for outfitting since a few weeks. Based on this, I think MSN004 could start FAL in July.

3) Wings for destruction

The wings which will be brought to destruction as part of static/fatigue testing will be shipped after MSN004 in June of July. Not sure if these are the EF2 wings but I think they are.

4) MSN005

The wings for MSN005 will be shipped to Bremen after the "destruction wings", probably in August. Based on this, MSN005 won't be in FAL until September or October.
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ap305
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 135):

3) Wings for destruction

The wings which will be brought to destruction as part of static/fatigue testing will be shipped after MSN004 in June of July. Not sure if these are the EF2 wings but I think they are.

This is extremely confusing... From what I can make of this article, http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-for-main-structural-tests-365076/ , Ef2 is a test station that deals with the center section of msn5000. Almost all aircraft in the recent past have had the ultimate load/destruction test done on the full static airframe. There is also a left hand wing section undergoing testing in Germany. I am not sure where this new "wing for destruction" is popping up all of a sudden. One wild guess is that Airbus wants to perform an ultimate load test on this section before performing another on msn5000?.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 9:53 am

Quoting ap305 (Reply 137):
Ef2 is a test station that deals with the center section of msn5000

EF2 will also have wings attached, see here:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/f6j44.jpg

Ultimate wing load will be done on MSN5000 but it seems like the destruction will be done on EF2, likely after the fatigue tests have been completed.
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ap305
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 9:56 am

Quoting ap305 (Reply 137):
This is extremely confusing... From what I can make of this article, http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-for-main-structural-tests-365076/ , Ef2 is a test station that deals with the center section of msn5000. Almost all aircraft in the recent past have had the ultimate load/destruction test done on the full static airframe. There is also a left hand wing section undergoing testing in Germany. I am not sure where this new "wing for destruction" is popping up all of a sudden. One wild guess is that Airbus wants to perform an ultimate load test on this section before performing another on msn5000?.

After looking at that article again, perhaps its just me getting confused  . There must be a separate static airframe (i.e msn 5000) and this fatigue airframe that is in separate pieces. However this still does not explain the ultimate load test/destruction aspect.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
ap305
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 138):
EF2 will also have wings attached, see here:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/f6j44.jpg

Ultimate wing load will be done on MSN5000 but it seems like the destruction will be done on EF2, likely after the fatigue tests have been completed.

Thanks... the fog is clearing a bit now  
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
overcast
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 10:03 am

I think it goes like this:

EF1-3 are parts for Fatigue testing

EW is Static and Fatigue for the Wing, most likely focusing on the flaps( remember these are far more active on the A350 as they are used during all phases of flight )

ES(aka MSN 5000) is the Static Airframe, and will be used for ultimate load test.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 10:10 am

Quoting overcast (Reply 141):
ES(aka MSN 5000) is the Static Airframe, and will be used for ultimate load test.

Correct but ultimate load test is not the same as destruction?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 142):
Correct but ultimate load test is not the same as destruction?

Assuming Airbus uses the same terminology as Boeing, "Limit Load" would be the maximum load the wings should ever be subjected to in flight and this test would be performed prior to first flight of the test airframes.

"Ultimate Load" is the 150% test, which would be performed later on (after flight testing and certification is underway).
 
overcast
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 142):
Correct but ultimate load test is not the same as destruction?

Correct, but I'd imagine you'd only go to Ultimate on a complete airframe, then carry on to destruction on the same frame to see how close your predictions are to reality. Only ES(5000) will have enough structure for that.

Also all other units, EF1-3 and EW, are listed as being for Fatigue testing, which indicates they will be in use after any Ultimate/Destructive testing.
 
Bogi
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 10:55 am

Published today by bloga350.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9CM5J67W1Kw/UZe16B9CJxI/AAAAAAAAEM8/p6QsCj8O26w/s1600/IMG_2505.jpg
Is this MSN 3?
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 11:18 am

Quoting Bogi (Reply 145):
Published today by bloga350.

Very nice! Those wing-lets..........  .
 
ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Fri May 31, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting Bogi (Reply 145):
Is this MSN 3?

Can't be, MSN003 does not have engines, it is MSN001 going to painting.
Non French in France
 
ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:37 am

Ponchos bird has been active again, here what his last post in the Avia forum is giving us:

http://avia.superforum.fr/t1358p480-airbus-a350xwb#37751


" Ceux qui veulent voir du Trent fumer feraient mieux de foncer à Toulouse plutôt que d'aller à la messe dimanche!

Smoke screen testing on A350XWB ... using two Trent XWB smoke generator

et l'avion est desormais aux mains de,l'equipe d'essai "

""Those who want to see Trents smoking better force their way to Tls instead of visiting the mass on sunday!

........

and the aircraft is in the meantime in the hands of the flight test department""


The last sentence is really positive, as we can see from the 350 blog the flight test department only accepts a ready aircraft, this means all preparatory testing has been going well and they will now start engine and taxi tests. Exiting  Wow! . Time for flightradar 24 with call sign F-WXWB ! 

[Edited 2013-05-31 20:38:50]
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 10

Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 148):
The last sentence is really positive

Possibly even more positive than you suggest, ferpe. As far as I know 'desormais' best translates into English as 'henceforward' or 'from now on.'!  

But, as you say, lots of taxi tests etc. to do - plus the 'infamous' simulated tailstrike one - before any actual flights.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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