Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Mon May 20, 2013 4:37 am

This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.
 
opethfan
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Mon May 20, 2013 6:16 am

I really can't think of much else to say other than "if they've passed all of the needed training and qualifications to be sat in that right seat, to doubt this person's expertise would be to also doubt the expertise of every other person to have ever sat in that seat."
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Mon May 20, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 103):
This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

Here is what I have to say about that...Some of the most professional, cautious (as in knowing their limits), knowledgeable pilots I have ever met have been Captains and F/Os under the age of 25. Age is simply a number constructed by society. While there are developmental issues to contend with, those vary with everyone. I have no problems flying with someone who looks like their mommy dropped them off at work with a bagged lunch, as long has he knows what he is doing.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
draigonair
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:37 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Mon May 20, 2013 12:01 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

Haha yeh right...if he told you then he is lying  
cheers
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 3:40 am

Like I said...experience matters. If nothing else, experience ensures that you have a more comprehensive view of what a pilot is all about. The analogy I offer is the difference between lending money to someone with good credit, bad credit, and no credit. Taking a low time pilot and putting him at the controls of a jet is like a bank giving a mortgage to someone with no credit. You just don't know what you have.

It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 104):
It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.

Then it's a good thing that it isn't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 71):
they have to learn it somewhere, from someone; outside of the military route, they can't just be flying Cessnas to learn these things. They need experienced pilots like YOU to teach them that, to MAKE them better pilots;

Agreed.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 73):

I for one think that he might be better (in some cases) then a more experienced pilot because:
a) He is fresh out of school so the normal and emergency procedures will still be fresh in his mind.
b) Since he is new and (probably   ) wants to keep his job he will most likely respect the rules and procedures to millimeter.

A) Commercial pilots, atleast in the USA, go through recurrent training every so often, hell, many long haul pilots have to fly the simulator every so often because they don't get enough landings in during a certain period of time to remain qualified.
B) Going by the rules and procedures or being safe can be totally opposite things. Half the time (maybe less) safety and P & P cannot coexist.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):

19 years old is far too young and inexperienced to fly a 737.

I suggest you avoid almost every single airline in Europe...
Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.
I also suggest you avoid SQ, QF, CX, etc... since they put guys fresh from flying school to widebodied aircraft (as cruise F/O... hey, did someone mention AF447?)

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 39):
I was very fortunate to have had some excellent opportunities by working hard for some people who offered me some good opportunities, but I certainly was not ready in any way shape or form to sit right seat in a 737 at 19. But then, I am just an average guy.

That's your problem/decision/right...
Just because others don't do it the same way as you do, does not mean they're bad.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy flying on a carrier that hires 19yr olds to the 320... and have had a stellar safety record... oh hang on... make that several.

It's all about the training and checks you do... have crappy training and checks, even older guys with more hours screw up.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 7:34 am

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 106):
B) Going by the rules and procedures or being safe can be totally opposite things. Half the time (maybe less) safety and P & P cannot coexist.

I'd be hard-pressed to think of a situation where one would have to operate contrary to policies and procedures in order to be safe. There may be times when policies allow something but the pilots might not deem it safe, but that's a different matter (you'd still be complying with policies and procedures by not going to their limits).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 12:19 pm

One of the instructors I've flown with was 19 years oldat the time, almost 20 years old.

He started flight training on his 15th birthday.

On his 16th birthday, he got his PPL and also his ratings for MEL, IFR. He had over 500 hours at that point, 300 of it in multi-engine piston and turbo-props up to a Beech King Air 350. He also had almost 100 hours in IFR - purposely flying in clouds and overcast days with his instructors.

On his 18th birthday, he made his first commercial flight as PIC of a Lear 25. He had over 1,800 hours at that point, over 900 of turbine (jet) time.

Before he was 19, he had his A320 and B737 type ratings.

He crossed over 2,500 hours by the time he turned 20.

All it took was a lot of time, and a lot of his father's money. When he turned 20, he was able to apply to passenger airlines, and was quickly accepted by a regional owned by a major US airline to fly CRJ-700.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 109):

He may be the exception, rather than the rule. He may not.




Reading this entire thread, something keeps nagging me, lurking.............considering what airline we're talking about, COULD (I said could) this be one of their publicity stunts?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 108):

I won't disagree with you because you're a smart individual and you have provided good input in the forums in the couple years I've been here. Some airlines have policies which strictly limit hand flying, which is definitely an unsafe practice. If the autopilot fails at 39,000 feet and the pilots have gone complacent due to lack of recent hand flying experience could lead to deadly consequences. I mean, you have one policy which tells you to do "x" while common sense tells you to do "g".
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 5:37 pm

I am amazed by most of what is said in this thread. I would expect Joe Public, that knows nothing of aviation to balk at flying with such a young crew-member, but not a bunch of so-called informed readers.

For this young gentleman to achieve such a level at such a young age, he had to have jumped through many hoops, and met very high standards. Congratulations to him!

It also means that while all of his mates were doing "teen stuff", he was at home studying.

If he is successful in training at Ryanair, it means he has achieved those very high standards. His level of knowledge in just about every facet of aviation has been tested and met. Likewise with his flying capability, in just about every imaginable situation.

So what's the big deal? Experience? Where do you expect him to get experience. Teaching students at a flying school? Towing gliders? Hauling freight in the arctic? None of this will help him at Ryanair, and I am going to guess that most of this is harder than flying Boeing's finest, through heavily controlled airspace, beside an experienced Captain. His standards will be continually tested and if not met, he will be retrained.

When this young lad is 25, and looking at an upgrade, he will have had excellent experience flying the very aircraft he will command, in the conditions he knows, to places he has seen hundreds of times. Sounds safe to me!

The fact that some very respectable airlines on the earth are doing this as well, indicates to me that safety is not a factor.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
PH-BFA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:22 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 5:44 pm

'Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.'

Could you provide us a link / source?

PH-BFA
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 112):
I would expect Joe Public, that knows nothing of aviation to balk at flying with such a young crew-member, but not a bunch of so-called informed readers.

My thoughts exactly. The idea of aviation enthusiasts dismissing some of the world's most reputable airlines on the basis of a perceived, arbitrary issue "does not compute". This won't mean a lot to most A.netters but I'm reminded of one Mr. Cholmondley Warner.
 
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 107):

It is simply my opinion. Nothing more.

May I humbly inquire as to how much experience you have in large transport aircraft for which you base your opinion?
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 8:32 pm

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 100):

This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

Obviously you don't go anywhere then.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22185
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 104):
It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.

The only way to find out how someone is going to react in a real emergency is to put them in a real emergency.

The sims and checkrides don't cut it. You put a pilot in a sim and tell him to take off and he already knows that SOMETHING (most likely an engine at V1) is going to go wrong. So he's not going to be caught off-guard when it happens.

The trouble is that there is no way to test someone in a real emergency other than putting them in a real emergency. And that is costly and logistically difficult, not to mention the paperwork hassles.

And no, I don't fly planes. I'm a doctor. I have lots of experience with life-and-death emergencies, both real and simulated. No matter how realistic, when you are in a simulation, you know it's "just" a simulation. Of course, in medicine, real-life emergencies happen frequently (multiple times a day in some specialties), so you have ample opportunity to learn by doing. By contrast, most airline pilots will NEVER have to handle a true emergency in their entire careers.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 9:19 pm

Does anyone have any studies to back up that 19 year olds are more dangerous pilots (vs older pilots with just as much experience?) Given that a person isn't completely new to flying, I've heard (so I could be totally off the money) that many new pilots are very very safe and complacency (that usually attacks more experienced pilots) is what causes a lot of accidents
 
PH-BFA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:22 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 9:23 pm

'http://69.64.153.208/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2398348/'

That is 25 years not 21 years
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Tue May 21, 2013 11:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 107):
I suggest you avoid almost every single airline in Europe...
Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.
I also suggest you avoid SQ, QF, CX, etc... since they put guys fresh from flying school to widebodied aircraft (as cruise F/O... hey, did someone mention AF447?)

I do.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 112):
Teaching students at a flying school? Towing gliders? Hauling freight in the arctic? None of this will help him at Ryanair, and I am going to guess that most of this is harder than flying Boeing's finest, through heavily controlled airspace, beside an experienced Captain. His standards will be continually tested and if not met, he will be retrained.

I completely disagree. You cannot learn to fly at an airline. Flight Instructing, towing gliders,and hauling freight is the exact kind of experience you need. If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure. This is the difference between AF447 or Colgan 3407 and US 1549. The skills Sully used that day were not learned in an Airbus I gurantee you.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 117):
Obviously you don't go anywhere then.

Last time I checked, the big 3 US Airlines go to just about anywhere most people would ever care to go.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
I completely disagree. You cannot learn to fly at an airline.

Then what you are saying is that everyone new to an airline starts at the same spot, whether 19 years old or 40 years old ... as outside the airline, you "cannot learn to fly at an airline" as you state. So what do you think a 40 year old brings to the table, that a 19 year old does not? Neither, "cannot learn to fly at an airline".

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
Flight Instructing, towing gliders,and hauling freight is the exact kind of experience you need.

Oh? As many on here know, I am a Line Indoctrination Training Captain on the B767. What experience do you think candidates need, to fly a B767, that they would learn instructing, towing or hauling freight ... that they would not have learned in the right seat of the B737?

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure.

There are a lot in the hiring / training / checking department that have different views on experience and the 2000 hour freight hauler (for example). Namely, often bad habits have to be unlearned. It has been found most often with candidates coming from an environment where supervision is not stellar. Like freight hauling in the arctic, for example. Or single pilot charter operations.

That is why the Cadet Program is favoured by many respected, and safe airlines. They have direct supervision of the pilot right from Hour One, and can mould him/her as they see fit. To date, there has never been an accident caused by the inexperience of one of these Cadets.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
This is the difference between AF447 or Colgan 3407 and US 1549.

It would be improper to critique any of the three accidents here. And yes, you can critique and find faults with all three. But you will note that these incidents, and many more, have changed the way we do business.

Let's use AF447 as an example. Pilots are now trained in high altitude FULL stall recovery. Up to that point, only APPROACH to stall was trained and tested. I have been in the simulator during this new training with all pilots, many with over 20,000 hours ... and it was a real eye opener. Some recovered safely on the first try, some did not! It was not in any way related to experience.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

  

That strikes me as being odd...how would a 19 year old be in the right seat on a 777....did he start his flight training while he was still in diapers?
My other car is an A320-200
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 7:53 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
Then what you are saying is that everyone new to an airline starts at the same spot, whether 19 years old or 40 years old ... as outside the airline, you "cannot learn to fly at an airline" as you state. So what do you think a 40 year old brings to the table, that a 19 year old does not? Neither, "cannot learn to fly at an airline".

Age only matters in the way that it limits his possible experience. If you have someone who is 19, there is no way he has accumulated enough experience that he should be flying an airliner. If a pilot is 40, then you need to take the extra step in looking at their resume.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
There are a lot in the hiring / training / checking department that have different views on experience and the 2000 hour freight hauler (for example). Namely, often bad habits have to be unlearned. It has been found most often with candidates coming from an environment where supervision is not stellar. Like freight hauling in the arctic, for example. Or single pilot charter operations.

That is why the Cadet Program is favoured by many respected, and safe airlines. They have direct supervision of the pilot right from Hour One, and can mould him/her as they see fit. To date, there has never been an accident caused by the inexperience of one of these Cadets.

You mean bad habits like pushing down during a stall recovery?

As to why so many airlines like the cadet program, it's because airline training departments need measurable outcomes and in the things that they measure, I will concede that cadets that have been doing it the "Air Canada", or whatever airline way from day one of training will do better in those measurable outcomes, and will make those cubical Captains happy.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
Oh? As many on here know, I am a Line Indoctrination Training Captain on the B767. What experience do you think candidates need, to fly a B767, that they would learn instructing, towing or hauling freight ... that they would not have learned in the right seat of the B737?

Wow, I hope i'm reading your post wrong, but I think that arrogance that emanates from most airline school houses might be rubbing off on you.

You cannot see how someone with experience outside your school house could bring something to the table that you (your school house collectively) did not teach him? really? wow.

I have been a mere line pilot for the past 15 years and I can tell you that I have never been less sharp with regards to basic stick and rudder skills then I am after being in airliners all of these years.

When I got to the airlines I had over 2,000 hours flight instructing. What could I have offered you? Well, I could fly a CAT I ILS nearly down to minimums with nothing but a compass, an OBS, and a TACH if it wasn't too windy. "Partial Panel" in an airliner means "full panel" to someone instructing in a Cessna 172. If one of the pilots of AF447 had lots of partial panel time like all instrument instructors do, I can pretty much gurantee they would have recognized the problem immediatelly. (as long as they hadn't been flying airliners for too long yet)

A freight pilot is used to things going sideways. It takes practice to handle emergencies, somebody with 10,000 hours flying freight in Alaska has got a lot more experience with things going sideways then somebody with 10,000 hours flying airline transports. Get him up to speed on your procedures, and he will have a lot of lessons that you could learn from.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
It would be improper to critique any of the three accidents here. And yes, you can critique and find faults with all three. But you will note that these incidents, and many more, have changed the way we do business.

Let's use AF447 as an example. Pilots are now trained in high altitude FULL stall recovery. Up to that point, only APPROACH to stall was trained and tested. I have been in the simulator during this new training with all pilots, many with over 20,000 hours ... and it was a real eye opener. Some recovered safely on the first try, some did not! It was not in any way related to experience.

Why would it be improper? Let's just say it, AF447, Colgan 3407, the indian airline FO that couldn't recover the jet at cruise, etc. were all because of a lack of BASIC stick and rudder skills. It is these basic stick and rudder skills is what you CANNOT learn flying a 737.

As far as your stall comment, Up to that point only approach to stalls was trained and tested...and the stall recovery was simply wrong AT THE AIRLINES. When I started flying airliners, I had this "bad habbit" of pushing forward to break the stall during a stall recovery, a habbit I HAD TO BREAK. An experience similar to other former instructors. I learned to keep back pressure...even adding it sometimes...adding full power...and let the airplane "fly out of the stall." I even questioned airline instructors about this technique...getting some variation of the "you shall comply" speech. So me, and all the former instructors complied. Now, after killing a few hundred people, the former GA instructors are vindicated, and now I am happy doing what I would have done in the first place.

Cadets and Airlines with Cadets do fine safety wise because thankfully, things very rarely go wrong. The chances of something going wrong in the first couple of years when new cadets have virtually ZERO experience is extremely remote. Cadets no doubt do better in airline simulator scenarios because they have only learned one way. Former instructors/freight-dogs actually have options in their minds they need to contemplate. Cadets do great as long as it fits one of the profiles (i.e. Engine Failure at V1). Fail airspeed indications at cruise...HANG ON! Glider pilot Airline Captain has dual engine flame-out on climb-out...everybody lives. Did the difference in experience matter? I think that it did.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3262
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 7:59 am

A 20-year old from the same flying school started flying 744's for Air Atlanta last year...

http://metro.co.uk/2012/06/27/jumbo-...ngest-at-just-20-years-old-483000/

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 100):
This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

That's fine by me, the fewer ignorant half-wits like yourself I have sitting behind me, the better!

Besides, having done a fair amount of my flying in the USA, I wouldn't trust half of the people I shared the airspace with with a paper plane, let alone a real one! I regularly flew into an airport that trained European pilots from zero hours, yet all but one reported incident in my time there involved your very own 'experienced' pilots.

Regards,
Just another inexperienced 22-year old 737 driver
 
PH-BFA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:22 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 9:03 am

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 123):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

That is a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot) only flying above 20,000'

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 125):
A 20-year old from the same flying school started flying 744's for Air Atlanta last year...

Again, a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot), only flying above 20,000'
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 12:11 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
I would definitely not put a family member on a jetliner with a 19 year old crew member. Not gonna happen.

Just out of interest. How do you achieve this? Do you demand access to the flight deck before departure and ask for their passports so you can see their date of birth?
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
Last time I checked, the big 3 US Airlines go to just about anywhere most people would ever care to go.

What a ridiculous US-centric viewpoint. The notion that US carriers go everywhere is simply absurd.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22137
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 1:56 pm

What's the issue? In combat, pilots peak at age 17 (or at least what I read when I was 17...).   

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 84):
According to those numbers 57.85% of all pilots would be alcoholics

Based on my experience with pilots, the rate of alcoholism is higher.   

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 49):

I am old enough to remember when the flight attendants were 19 and the flight crew, pilots and engineers, were relatively senior. Perhaps now the grey hairs are all back in the passenger cabin.

   So true.

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 49):
Of course many of those guys up front started in WWII, when they were very young indeed and had been tested in ways that flying for an airline does not replicate.

I honor our vetrans. But man do they do a bunch of wear and tear on aircraft when they have flashbacks. DL was hiring a ton of ex-navy and they do thrust transients that are *hard* on the engines...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 93):
Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
Maybe not a good example.......they would have started flying at EIGHT??

Yes. Little kids take flying lessons. There are some kids who start flying very young.

I know two kids who started high school with pilots licenses and had all the commercial certs by graduation. None that started at 8, but why not start early? One of my friends, a police officer, is teaching his 11 year old to drive 'just in case' and will probably put the kid in a plane by 13. Some kids are ready early.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 126):
Again, a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot), only flying above 20,000'

And? If it hits the fan, that pilot will put the plane on the ground.

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 127):

It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.
 
PH-BFA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:22 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 4:34 pm

'And? If it hits the fan, that pilot will put the plane on the ground.'

A) second officer is not allowed to fly below 20,000'..
B) even if there is no other choice (cpt and f/o incapacitated) and he has to 'put it down' it will be tricky as he/she will have exactly ZERO experience of landing this type of aircraft in real life as it will be his/her first (no base training for S/O during type rating)

[Edited 2013-05-22 09:36:22]
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 130):
It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.

Interesting statement. Can you share your wisdom with us? Out of curiosity i've just done a quick google search and found the following:

Quote:
We are proudly recruiting pilots for first officer positions. As a new Delta first officer, you have an opportunity to initially be assigned to a MD88/90, a 737NG, or even a 757/767 aircraft type among our fleet of more than 700 aircraft. To qualify for employment as a pilot with Delta you must meet all of the following requirements.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
At least 21 years of age.........

So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

Lastly, (apologies if you've already stated this) what experience do you feel is required to pilot a modern jet aircraft?

I.e. 3000 hours in a cessna 152, 1000 hours IFR, 500 in a twin (i.e. seneca)...etc etc

Do not take this post in the wrong way at all, i'm genuinely interested in how you come to have the opinion that you do.
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 132):
Quote:We are proudly recruiting pilots for first officer positions. As a new Delta first officer, you have an opportunity to initially be assigned to a MD88/90, a 737NG, or even a 757/767 aircraft type among our fleet of more than 700 aircraft. To qualify for employment as a pilot with Delta you must meet all of the following requirements.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
At least 21 years of age.........

So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

So, there is also a requirement for a college degree in the mix......I'm guessing they think that age 21 is the minimum age for that.

I'm thinking age 21 is in there so they can buy booze on layovers.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 7:20 pm

That's quite a contrast to the United States. In the United States a new-hire regional first officer is on average probably 25 years old. The youngest I've ever heard of a regional FO being is 20 years old. With the new ATP requirements going into place the minimum age to serve as a first officer for a part 121 carrier is 23 years old.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
User avatar
CARST
Posts: 1572
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 8:41 pm

Age is only a concern for old people. They can't remember the time when they were at these young ages and now fear being replaced by someone much younger, giving up control. If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people.

That just about says it all.

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.

I am amazed that this young man was able to meet such high standards at such a low age. It shows a level of dedication that is sadly rather rare these days. He has a tremendous career ahead of him.

There are Cadet programs at airlines like All Nippon, Cathay, British Airways, Lufthansa and starting shortly at Air Canada. These airlines are among the safest on the earth. Clearly the Cadet program is safe, and fears of age are unfounded.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 132):
So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

Lastly, (apologies if you've already stated this) what experience do you feel is required to pilot a modern jet aircraft?

I.e. 3000 hours in a cessna 152, 1000 hours IFR, 500 in a twin (i.e. seneca)...etc etc

Do not take this post in the wrong way at all, i'm genuinely interested in how you come to have the opinion that you do.

My company has also had a minimum hiring age of 21 as well. At least when I applied. I can tell you that the minimum to apply is not the minimum to get hired.

Just because someone has the license and ratings does not mean much initially. It is a license to learn. For example, when my kids obtained their drivers license, they met the minimum requirements to operate the vehicle. They did not have the experience that comes with time. They were only allowed to drive in town to gain experience before we let them drive at high speeds on the freeway.

It is hard to draw up specific requirements for a number of reasons. It all depends on the type of flying experience the individual has. Many airlines have very experienced Captains who can train these individuals. Many do not. I am not against ab initio training either. With the forecast pilot shortage coming, ab initio will probably become more and more common. I am concerned however, that money talks and that many airlines will not provide enough adequate training. And I don't mean the likes of Lufthansa, British Airways, etc. They are superb. I am not being paranoid, I have seen a lot of cost cutting and the meeting of minimums in my career. Fortunately, not at my airline. My airline has hired many pilots who have been 24-25, have college degrees, with military training, corporate and or turbine regional experience. Myself included. I was hired at 25, and I still had a lot to learn. At 20, I had 1000 hours and was in no way qualified to enter the cockpit of a 737/A320. It was primarily single engine and light twin. Admittedly, I may have just been slower that the average guy.  

It appears that this thread seems to imply that because a non college educated 19 year old is considered by many in the profession to be too young, that we / I believe that young people do not belong in the industry. That would obviously be ridiculous. We absolutely need young people entering and I encourage any kid coming up to the cockpit. Is 19 too young? In my humble OPINION, I think it is. Is 23-24 too young. Absolutely not.

Bottom line, I have been flying airplanes for 37 years with about 10 to go. While I still have a lot to learn, I at least have an educated opinion whether anyone agrees with me or not. I am not trying to justify my way of thinking, just providing a point of view / opinion. I am rarely right at home, so it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong here too...

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people. They can't remember the time when they were at these young ages and now fear being replaced by someone much younger, giving up control. If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.

While I can obviously only speak for myself, I am not the least bit afraid to have young people enter the profession. I encourage it and truly hope many, many more pilots are lucky enough to have the career I have had. And by the way, I am not that old!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 123):
That strikes me as being odd...how would a 19 year old be in the right seat on a 777....did he start his flight training while he was still in diapers?
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 130):

It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.

I don't get how age is a factor if they are able to do the job. I don't even know the pilots ages when I travel and rarely see them or pay much attention to who is flying the aircraft. What is it matter how old the pilot is?
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Thu May 23, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
At 20, I had 1000 hours and was in no way qualified to enter the cockpit of a 737/A320. It was primarily single engine and light twin.

Indeed. However there is a hell of a difference between operating a light aircraft and a multi-engine jet as i'm sure you're aware. There is no 'left rudder on level off' or 'right rudder when you apply power' unless of course you've got a failure but given that your experience is vastly greater than mine i'm sure you're well aware of that.

Most modern flight schools in Europe certainly train their students to be captains of aircraft such as the 737 from day 1. Its a far cry from learning how to go for a jolly with your friends and family in a 152 for the day for example. Everything is structured towards airline flying, usually culminating in the MCC.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
We absolutely need young people entering and I encourage any kid coming up to the cockpit. Is 19 too young? In my humble OPINION, I think it is. Is 23-24 too young. Absolutely not.

I fully respect your opinon. Personally, I gained my first (airline) job at 23 but I know numerous people who are younger and are more than mature enough and intelligent enough to be in the positions that they now find themselves. If you're good enough - you're old enough  
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
Bottom line, I have been flying airplanes for 37 years with about 10 to go. While I still have a lot to learn, I at least have an educated opinion whether anyone agrees with me or not. I am not trying to justify my way of thinking, just providing a point of view / opinion. I am rarely right at home, so it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong here too...

The day we stop learning is the day we should stop flying I guess!   Happy flying!

[Edited 2013-05-23 03:50:35]
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
mandala499
Posts: 6600
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Thu May 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 116):
May I humbly inquire as to how much experience you have in large transport aircraft for which you base your opinion?

Does it matter since we are just talking opinons?

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure.

Cool... last time we hired the 2000hrs freight hauler type, they ended up flying using SPD/VS instead of the VNAV/Managed. So much for fuel efficiency.... when asked to use the VNAV/Managed, they simply refused, so the company simply refused to extend their contracts.   

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 124):
If you have someone who is 19, there is no way he has accumulated enough experience that he should be flying an airliner.

One airline here has a statistics on how many mishaps they've had related to the pilot's age... guess what, ironically for right seaters the older you are when you start the more likely you are to fly and get involved in a mishap on a given calendar year.

On the other hand, the younger you are on the right hand seat, the bigger the authority curve problem is, but the trend is consistent with CRM deficiencies vs crew age differences... Too much of a difference or a negative difference between the Captain and the FO, ain't good according to the statistics.

But then this is statistics from an airline hiring 19 yr olds...   

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 136):
That just about says it all.

I wish I could have put it as bluntly!   

Perhaps if the US allows foreigners to work and fly banner towing, prop freight hauling, regionals, and whatever else except airliners, then perhaps countries with a lack of general aviation and any air operations outside mainline carriers, can follow the US method of having a few thousand hours in anything smaller than a 737/320...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Thu May 23, 2013 9:07 pm

Just to mention this because it got lost in the mix, but this particular 19 year old, probably would NOT be hired by DL, for sure, because of the lack of a college degree. Not sure about the other legacies.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Viscount724
Topic Author
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Thu May 23, 2013 10:04 pm

I expect there are still many BA pilots who went through their 21 month "ab initio" training scheme that lasted until sometime in the 1980s if not mistaken. Minimum age 18, maximum 24. Considering the safety record of major British carriers, it seemed to work fairly well.

1966 ad describing the program. The £1,300 annual starting salary in 1966 is equivalent to roughly £20,000 ($30,000) today with inflation.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...arch=College%20of%20Air%20Training

If it still existed today it wouldn't refer to "men".
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Fri May 24, 2013 12:21 pm

The minimum requirements are for very special groups that don't help most pilots. Low age and total time for kids of management types. Low total time so as not to exclude fighter pilots. No PIC requirements to be able to hire the 10,000 hour regional FO that didn't have an opportunity to upgrade.

But NOBODY gets hired with ONLY the minimums...I guarantee you that Delta/AA/US/HA have no 1,500tt 21 year olds running around. In fact...at a US major, if you are under 30 years old you are very likely to be the youngest in your class.

The US aviation industry is about 1/2 the global aviation industry. For a number of years now, the fatal accident rate in the US has been zero. The other half of the airline industry kills about 700-800people a year.

Experience does matter. If the US carriers killed people at the rate the rest of the world does, we'd be losing a wide body every 4-6 months. Just because the rest of the world does it, in aviation, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do.
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot

Fri May 24, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 143):
The US aviation industry is about 1/2 the global aviation industry. For a number of years now, the fatal accident rate in the US has been zero. The other half of the airline industry kills about 700-800people a year.

Experience does matter. If the US carriers killed people at the rate the rest of the world does, we'd be losing a wide body every 4-6 months. Just because the rest of the world does it, in aviation, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do.

Wow! I'm not even sure where to start with that.

So you're comparing recent American aviation related fatalities to the rest of the world?

America: A modern, developed nation with years of experience with all matters aviation related, from construction, to operating. This experience coming (in part) from numerous disasters over the years.

Rest of the world: Includes very poor nations, struggling to develop and become a part of the modern world. Companies operating very old aircraft with little maintenance or training.

A fair comparison?
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos