Viscount724
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 49):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):

If you're referring to the Shanghai Y-10, it most definitely did fly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQ-7TtM4Kg

Is it just me or does the logo at 0:20 look extremely similar to the Boeing logo? They couldn't even be original for that?

Yes, not identical but very similar.
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 47):
It may have a new wing ... but it clearly is using the same airfoil shapes (DSMA-4xx).

I think it's great that at least someone knows about this superior design and is willing to keep producing it. BRAVO!

Agreed....I've always felt that the DC-9 had a graceful and rugged appearance that just seemed to look right....in every version/series, the DC-9 has always had a solid appearance that seems to be the physical manifestation of Bill Lear's philosophy: "If it looks good, it will fly good".

When you look at other aircraft like the 737-100 or 747-SP, the aircraft look stubby and unbalanced....for whatever reason, (at least to me) the DC-9 has always looked like it belongs at 31,000ft....everything about the aircraft has an appearance of belonging. The aircraft was vectored by the sure hands of technology and guided by years of Douglas/McDonnell Douglas knowhow.

The DC-9/MD-80/717-200 may not have invented the clean wing/aft engined design (that distinction goes to the very sexy Caravelle)...but I think that McDonnell Douglas did it best....any single aspect of the DC-9 design isn't outstanding; rather it is the combination of all of the little things that make the DC-9 an exceptionally good looking aircraft....the 757 is another airplane that just looks right...the L-1011 is another....the DC-10 always had a "clunky: appearance to me....it always looks like the #2 engine is balanced on the tail with a hope and a prayer and lots of speed tape...the L-1011 had a grace and elegance to the widebody trijet design that is lacking in the DC-10.

As for the aft engine/clean wing/T Tail configuration, there are many variations on a theme:

- Fokker F-28/Fokker 100 - I've always felt they look like a watered down version of the DC-9....it's like the Atkins Diet DC-9

- Canadair CRJ Family - From the front, the CRJ has a confident look, but the CF34s look comical....they are too small and don't seem to suit the airframe like the JT8Ds do the DC-9.

- Embraer 135....They just look like a CRJ had a one night stand with an F-28 during Carnival and the offspring is the E-135.

The bottom line is that the DC-9 was an aircraft that did it's job extremely well....it has functioned in virtually every market sector...regional, mainline, transcontinental....it has been a passenger pleasing profit maker for the airlines for over 40 years...the basic robustness of the airframe has been demonstrated by the sheer number of aircraft that remain in service today....I don't recall seeing any 1970s vintage 737s still in service with any North American carriers....as for the DC-9-50s....I seem to recall that Delta still has them in service over 35 years after their first flight...that's an impressive long life that hasn't been matched.....well, except for maybe the DC-3, I don't think that there is another jet powered aircraft that has served in as many different market sectors for as long as the DC-9...love it or hate it, the DC-9 is a remarkable aircraft that is a testament to the Douglas philosophy of excellence through evolution.
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A320FlyGuy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 49):
Is it just me or does the logo at 0:20 look extremely similar to the Boeing logo? They couldn't even be original for that?

Wasn't that logo originally the Douglas logo that morphed into the McDonell Douglas logo that was finally worked into the Boeing logo?





to



and finally:

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N62NA
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:50 am

I think it's a very interesting looking aircraft - kind of like what the DC-9 would have looked like had it went through one more update.

Apparently, this is a very real airliners, having just completed crosswind testing:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-completes-crosswind-tests-385255/
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 53):

I think it's a very interesting looking aircraft - kind of like what the DC-9 would have looked like had it went through one more update.

Wouldn't the 717 be considered the ultimate modern DC-9?
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brilondon
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 2:13 am

I was asking the same question but I was wondering if the designers for the DC-9 were working on this project.
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CALTECH
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 27):
I don't believe it ever flew to the U.S. It only made a few test flights and was never developed to the point of carrying passengers.

Yeah, thinking back, there was a 4 engined Chinese jet out on the ramp that we could see from a distance. One of the old timers said it was a copy of the 707, it may well have been a 707.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-10.htm

"The Y-10 made it's first flight in 1980 but the only flyable Y-10 made 130 flights before being retired in 1983."

If this is the case that the Y-10 was retired in 1983, it couldn't have been the aircraft I saw in the summer of 1985.

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N62NA
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 54):
Wouldn't the 717 be considered the ultimate modern DC-9?

I was thinking beyond the MD-95 (717).  
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 44):
At least NW's had full doors back there, leading to stairs, when used. At AC, as there were no stairs, there was just the catwalk back to the cone. The biggest difference though was the actual door.
Quoting nwa757boy (Reply 45):
I think almost all of the ex-EA -30 birds had this type of exit and a few of the Hughes Airwest -30s had this exit as well. It was the most comfortable jumpseat! It was like a little loveseat back there

The DC9-10's and -30's that were former EA aircraft did indeed have the dreaded "hatch" in the tail. Eastern compensated by having an enlarged forward galley service door. You had to lift the hatch out, lay it on the floor and climb into the tail. I always joked that the airplane would have to be burning like hell to get me to do that. There was a tiny little area for the f/a to stand to usher pax off the airplane--and heaven help you if the instructor did not see you physically hanging on to the airplane structure while you did this, all the while shouting your exit commands.

The former EA DC9-10's were a godsend for commuters because they had a double jumpseat in the front. I can't tell you how many times that made the difference between getting to work or getting home. They were deeply padded--unlike the 757 which was nothing but a board covered by a piece of cloth. If I was commuting I would always check the ship number to see if it was a former EA aircraft.

We had some former RW DC9-15CF's that had a freight door in the front and only one lav in the rear and one in the front.--the other was a coat closet. They were gone pretty quickly after the Republic merger.

I think the "loveseat" is a tad over stated. It was NOT designed for two men with shoulders to sit side by side. We basically strapped in and half sat on the jumpseat facing one another.

NW spent a fortune redoing the interiors of the 9's--best of all adding a third lav in first class.
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fanofjets
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
If you're referring to the Shanghai Y-10, it most definitely did fly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQ-7TtM4Kg

Thank you for posting these links. What great videos! So far, all I have been able to find are black-and-white photos from Jane's All the World's Aircraft. You made one airliner nerd a very happy guy.

Yes, when this bird first flew in 1980 (only one aircraft made a few flights; a second example was a static test airframe), it may have been some 20 years out of date. Yet, I have always thought the Y-10 had a lot of personality. Even Boeing's Joe Sutter expressed his admiration of the Y-10 in his book on designing the Boeing 747. (Sutter did not like the Il-86, however). When I first saw the color photo on Airliners.net, I was elated to find that this most unusual aircraft has been preserved.
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pvjin
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 19):
AN-24 - F27, F50, HPR.7 Dart Herald

AN-12 - C-130

IL-76 - C-141

Really none of the aircraft you just listed look anything similar to their soviet counterparts, also C-130 and C-141 have been mainly in military use, I'm quite cure C-141 couldn't really operate in conditions where IL-76 operates all the time still today.

Thus you can't blame Soviets for copying any of these designs any more than you can blame Airbus for copying 737 with their A320 project which just serves similar purpose.
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CALTECH
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
Really none of the aircraft you just listed look anything similar to their soviet counterparts, also C-130 and C-141 have been mainly in military use, I'm quite cure C-141 couldn't really operate in conditions where IL-76 operates all the time still today.

Had my vision checked, it is 20/16. Really, they do. Aeroflot was a adjunct to the Soviet Air Force and Aeroflot was a part of the strategic air transport reserve for the USSR. The Minister of Civil Aviation in the USSR was always a general or marshal of the Soviet Air Force. Most Aeroflot pilots also were commissioned in the Soviet Air Force. Most of the aircraft you originally cited were military designs with high wings and cargo loading ramps.
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pvjin
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 12:21 pm

Well yeah they have seen a lot of military service, however still their design is very different from any of their American counterparts and they by no means aren't knockoffs or anything like some people suggested.
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lightsaber
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:20 pm

A bad copy... the wrong cross section for the size of the aircraft.

And trending to be 8 years late at EIS...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 38):

So what's the certification status of the ARJ-21?

Botched. They now have issues with the landing gear that have delayed certification for 18 months from an early 2014 EIS date that is already 7 years LATE!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ns-point-to-further-delays-383095/

How does one find an interface issue this late in flight testing? Or the problem was identified, but the responsible manager was too well connected to be brought to task...

A plane that would have been so-so if introduced into service in 2007 as planned will enter the fleet in 2015 *at best!* In other words, the airframe will enter service after the C-series and MRJ but 3 years before the re-engined e-jets. By the time the ARJ-21 finishes going through 'teething issues' it will be out of date in the market.

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CiC
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 1:56 pm

No surprise.
Same happened after WW2 with some Junkers designs  

Why did the Mig-15 and F-86 Sabre look so similar?
 
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CALTECH
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting CiC (Reply 64):
Why did the Mig-15 and F-86 Sabre look so similar?
http://www.swannysmodels.com/images/Ta183/boxart.jpg

http://www.luft46.com/mlart/ml250-5.jpg
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Acheron
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting CiC (Reply 64):
Why did the Mig-15 and F-86 Sabre look so similar?

They do?.
 
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Spacepope
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 3:21 pm

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 36):
That said, yes, the Chinese aircraft industry has reverse engineered some fighters as well as the 707. In the latter case, the Y10 is the result, and not a very good one at that:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/0521801/L/

See also an earlier thread on reverse engineering:
Was Y-10 Really A B-707 Copy? (by KC135TopBoom Dec 12 2007 in Civil Aviation)


Classic thread. I love the denial that DL would ever look at more MD-90s!
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anfromme
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 3:28 pm

[deleted, as somebody has posted the same point about the MDD vs Boeing logo in the meantime  Smile ]

[Edited 2013-05-22 08:29:33]
42
 
AirbusA6
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 4:07 pm

The Chinese have also produced a series of props, the current model being the Xian MA60, which are all derived from the An-24.
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dc1030cf
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):

"How does one find an interface issue this late in flight testing? Or the problem was identified, but the responsible manager was too well connected to be brought to task...

A plane that would have been so-so if introduced into service in 2007 as planned will enter the fleet in 2015 *at best!* In other words, the airframe will enter service after the C-series and MRJ but 3 years before the re-engined e-jets. By the time the ARJ-21 finishes going through 'teething issues' it will be out of date in the market."


How true......and they are talking about the C-919 to grab orders from the NEO and MAX? Pure wet dream   On the other hand, they did build the IL-76 lookalike which IIRC, the Y-20?
 
wjv04
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 51):
....I don't recall seeing any 1970s vintage 737s still in service with any North American carriers....

Im a fan of the DC9 as well and I can agree with the majority of your post. IMO the 737, old and current generation are the most natural looking aircraft in the sky. There are plenty examples of 70's 737s still in service. Being Canadian you shouldnt have to look to far.


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C-GNAU Delivered 26-09-1979


Lets not forget the countless cargo 727s still in service...

N221FE Delivered 25-09-1974.


Deltas oldest in service DC9 was delivered 25-08-1975.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Wed May 22, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 56):
Yeah, thinking back, there was a 4 engined Chinese jet out on the ramp that we could see from a distance. One of the old timers said it was a copy of the 707, it may well have been a 707.

The aircraft in your first photo (B-2406) is a 707-320B, one of the 10 707s delivered to CAAC in 1973-74 (4 -320B and 6 -320C). They were the first 10 U.S.-built jets sold in China.

[Edited 2013-05-22 15:59:25]
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 3:58 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 56):
Yeah, thinking back, there was a 4 engined Chinese jet out on the ramp that we could see from a distance. One of the old timers said it was a copy of the 707, it may well have been a 707.

The aircraft in your first photo (B-2406) is a 707-320B, one of the 10 707s delivered to CAAC in 1973-74 (4 -320B and 6 -320C). They were the first 10 U.S.-built jets sold in China.

Richard Nixon was president then and he was trying to one up China. The US government may have allowed China to buy these aircraft from Boeing as a way to encourage the opening up of China to "the west."   
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ordpark
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 6:53 am

WOW! ....rough crowd.....I'll really have to watch what I respond to from now on.....The insults were really not warranted folks. You can disagree with someone without slamming them....
 
Cessna172RG
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 1:17 pm

So when should we expect Delta (nee Northwest) to order 200 or so of them?
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b727fa
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 58):
The DC9-10's and -30's that were former EA aircraft did indeed have the dreaded "hatch" in the tail. Eastern compensated by having an enlarged forward galley service door. You had to lift the hatch out, lay it on the floor and climb into the tail. I always joked that the airplane would have to be burning like hell to get me to do that. There was a tiny little area for the f/a to stand to usher pax off the airplane--and heaven help you if the instructor did not see you physically hanging on to the airplane structure while you did this, all the while shouting your exit commands.

IIRC, even a few of (if not all) the -40's had the hatch. I remember when the '11 hires came through they were learning the hatch and the door on the -40 as well as (just) the door on the -50 (as it was the door only). There is an interesting placard on the -50 door indicating the mod for the primary jettison handle on a/c L of the tailcone area.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 76):
IIRC, even a few of (if not all) the -40's had the hatch. I remember when the '11 hires came through they were learning the hatch and the door on the -40 as well as (just) the door on the -50 (as it was the door only). There is an interesting placard on the -50 door indicating the mod for the primary jettison handle on a/c L of the tailcone area.

No--the -40's were all doors. A few -30's had the hatch (all former EA) and all the -10's.

Remember "FDS?" Flashlight, door, (restraining) strap. For the non-airline people, you had to grab a flashlight before you opened the tailcone door because it blocked the compartment. This was our little "memory jogger" for going through training every year. It was pitch black back there--no lighting. And about a 12" wide metal grid catwalk. Ugh.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting dc1030cf (Reply 70):
By the time the ARJ-21 finishes going through 'teething issues' it will be out of date in the market."

What it does, though, is provide invaluable experience to the Chinese. Their next plane will be produced faster and better.

Just because they are behind now, doesn't mean they'll be behind forever.

Even if their stuff just sells to the Chinese market, every one is a lost sale for Airbus and Boeing...also BBD and Emb.
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Tugger
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
DC9

I think the real question on everybody's mind is will Northwe.... err Delta buy them and how long will they operate the type?  

Tugg
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PEK777
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 79):
I think the real question on everybody's mind is will Northwe.... err Delta buy them and how long will they operate the type?

Bythe way, when is Delta retiring the DC-9s?
  
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DC9 Rip-off Or What?

Thu May 23, 2013 11:36 pm

They keep delaying the departure of the DC9-50's--I think that once they start to seriously receive 717's and 739's they will go. I'd give it early 2014.

The DC9 is built like a tank--you can't hurt it unless you really screw up. I'll be sorry to see the old girl go but I guess that is progress. We are doomed to be crammed into airplanes like the 739 for eternity. I am just glad that I had a chance to work on really GREAT aircraft like the 707, 720, DC8 and 727. They were comfortable, you could actually cross your legs without risking spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair. Today it is all about "mood lighting", wifi and electronic toys. I am glad that I had a chance to work in the days when we actually cooked Chateau Briand in FC, slicing it table side and Y customers got a hot meal on virtually every leg. We ran our legs off but it was fun, incredible teamwork and I will cherish those memories. You have not lived until you had to serve 145 hot meals on a 707-320 between DFW and MCI in 50 minutes--with a full cocktail and beverage service and 3 (count 'em) THREE flight attendants--and NO meal carts. Everything was run out and picked up by hand. My female colleagues loved it when they had a guy working because we had long arms and they could "body stack" us with meal trays. My preferred inflight entertainment is a window seat and a great book. Of course we were a lot younger, skinnier and faster then.

But more to the thread--NEVER underestimate the Chinese. They are smart, sophisticated and have superior engineering skills. One day in the not too distant future their aviation industry will be an international force to be reckoned with along with Boeing and Airbus.

I just wish Lockheed would get back into the passenger aircraft business.
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