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N62NA
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 37):
And there's a massive difference between a 2 to 4 hour journey and a 10 to 12 hour journey.

In the USA 737s routinely fly 6+ hours. Count the additional time you are in your seat for boarding to complete, the 30 minute delay for "the rest of the bags to be loaded" and the other 30 minute "mx delay" and your 6 hour transcon flight turns into 8 hours in the seat on the 737.

Quoting Mir (Reply 48):

When 737s start flying eight-hour trips, then you'll have a point

See above.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Quoting AA94 (Reply 21):

I didn't think i will cause such an outcry of selfishness. In 2-5-2 4 people have only one person to cross to access the aisle, which is not the case in 3-3-3, where you have 2 persons who are in the position of the "middle-guy" in 2-5-2.
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captainstefan
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 13):
Where will they draw the line? Why not convert 767's to 8 across and A-330's to 9 across? I'm not being sarcastic. What is it about the 777 that makes narrow seats and narrow aisles so enticing for the bean counters (who probably fly business class without paying for it)?

I remember seeing the promotional sketches of the 777 cabin cross section UA published, and one of the points of emphasis was that passengers would not be blocked by a galley cart in the aisle - they would be wide enough to walk by the cart. Of course, that was a) promotional material b) pre-$100+/bbl oil.
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Mir
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 50):
In the USA 737s routinely fly 6+ hours. Count the additional time you are in your seat for boarding to complete, the 30 minute delay for "the rest of the bags to be loaded" and the other 30 minute "mx delay" and your 6 hour transcon flight turns into 8 hours in the seat on the 737.

And when you throw all those into the 8 hour trip it becomes 10 hours. There's still a difference.

-Mir
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mcogator
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 36):
I'm sorry, but I find the discomfort of 3-4-3 to be extremely over-exaggerated. I don't hear anyone groaning about their 17" seat width on their latest 737 flight, but the exact same seat width on a 777 and all of a sudden "it's just so unbearably tight." And for anyone who is going to follow up trying to tell me there's a difference, I'd love to hear the logic of how many different types of 17" there are.

Thank you. I'm 6'6 255 lbs and have been on multiple 7-10 hour flights on a AF/KL 777 back in Y. You can barely, if any, feel the difference between them and a DL 777 in Y. The most discomfort I feel is when I hop on AF and their appalling seat pitch, even in an A380. That is where the pain and discomfort comes from. At least on DL and KL, I can select Y+.
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TGV
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting Qfflyer (Reply 39):
Quoting PDX88 (Reply 36):
I'm sorry, but I find the discomfort of 3-4-3 to be extremely over-exaggerated

I agree. I had my first experiences in a 3-4-3 EK 777 last week...and didn't realise/forgot that it was 3-4-3 until I thought about it a long time after the flight...

In which seat where you seated ? Where all seats around you occupied ?

I have flown only twice in a 3-4-3 777 (it was a return CDG-HKG flight on an AF in 2009). In both cases I had a window seat, with an occupied seat on the other side. It was really difficult : permanently touching the neighbor (and it was worst for him, having somebody on both sides), and the wall (paper thin armrest requiring to put the arms between the thighs).
Since then I have carefully and stricly avoided this config on all airlines. Fortunately from Europe you can still fly everywhere with 3-3-3 777, or other types (380/747/340/330).

AF has lost around 20 return trips from me. Diehard supporters of the 3-4-3 (or of the bottom lines of the airlines) will say it is not important, since I was travelling in Eco and airlines are not interested in Eco passengers who do not pay enough.
But it has also changed my choices when I travel Y+ or J (it happens sometimes): before I was always flying AF, for the FF program, in Eco or higher classes. This change has freed me (and I thank AF for that !).
I will never fly again 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y
 
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 53):
And when you throw all those into the 8 hour trip it becomes 10 hours. There's still a difference.

I wasn't disputing that there is a time difference between a 6 hour, 8 hour and 10 hour trip. I was responding to:

Quoting Mir (Reply 48):
When 737s start flying eight-hour trips, then you'll have a point. I can deal with a 17" seat for a few hours,

The point is, for many trips (in the USA at least) you end up on a 737 for pretty close to 8 hours. And that's the point.  
 
intermodal64
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 51):
In 2-5-2 4 people have only one person to cross to access the aisle, which is not the case in 3-3-3, where you have 2 persons who are in the position of the "middle-guy" in 2-5-2.

I prefer the original 747 configuration of 3-4-2. It preserves doubles by the window, and there is no center-most center seat from hell. But 2-5-2 versus 3-3-3 versus 3-4-2 does not really influence my purchasing behavior. I'm thinking that 10Y versus 9Y would. But I'm also thinking that I won't have a choice much longer unless I avoid 777's altogether.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 51):
I didn't think i will cause such an outcry of selfishness.

No selfishness here. You expressed your view, so did I. If you prefer the middle seat on a 2-5-2 aircraft, fine for you. I don't like it.
 
cschleic
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
More seats means lower CASM which allows AA to lower fares which generates traffic to fill those extra seats.

Really? With planes nearly full now, isn't it more likely to be more seats at current fares = more profit? Plus more opportunities for bag fees, on board meal purchase, etc. The point is more people in the plane.
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 34):
Some charter carriers have done that.

For those who think 10 across in a 777 is bad, try it in a DC-10. I had the displeasure of being stuck in a 3-4-3 Y cabin of a DC-10 one time. The cabin of a DC-10 is about a foot narrower than a 777.
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 45):
The 777 is 1ft 1in wider than the DC-10, and besides charter/supplemental airlines from around the world, there has been a few scheduled that had them with 10Y like IW that used to fly theirs on routes like ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU or ORY-LAX-PPT.

No its only 6 inches narrower internally than an 777: DC10 is 18.9 ft, L1011 is 18.11 ft and 777 is 19.3 ft. 747 is 20.1ft, A300/10/30/40 is 17.4 ft and 767 is 15.6ft

[Edited 2013-06-03 14:53:04]
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AirbusA6
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 57):
I prefer the original 747 configuration of 3-4-2. It preserves doubles by the window, and there is no center-most center seat from hell. But 2-5-2 versus 3-3-3 versus 3-4-2 does not really influence my purchasing behavior. I'm thinking that 10Y versus 9Y would. But I'm also thinking that I won't have a choice much longer unless I avoid 777's altogether.

It's hard to avoid 777s, but not impossible. And it's odd how the same airlines can operate the 777 and A380, both with 10Y when one plane is massively wider than the other. Fine if you stick the 10Y 777s on cheap leisure routes and the A380s on more upmarket routes, but does this split really work?
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timpdx
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:04 pm

I am much more concerned about seat pitch, that said, I am looking at LAX India sometime this year and am avoiding EK because of 10Y. If I have to go 10Y than I will GLADLY take the stopover in Europe verses 16+ hours in a 777 at 10Y. And its usually cheaper to go through a Europe hub anyways, I dont know why people would put themselves through that.
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eastern747
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:37 pm

So what happens when one is stuck in the middle seat and the average "overweight" sitting on each side of you, spill their excess weight and blubber into your area? Your 17" is even less..........IMHO
 
Mir
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 56):
The point is, for many trips (in the USA at least) you end up on a 737 for pretty close to 8 hours.

I'm talking about scheduled time, not the assumption that you will get hit with a mechanical delay, baggage loading delays, etc. that you're presenting.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:45 pm

DL will soon follow UA and AA's lead with narrower seats. And yes, I said UA, because UA has already started going narrower - it opted for 9 across on the 787-8 (just like I'm sure AA is opting).
a.
 
airDFW
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:57 pm

3-4-3 is more bearable if you have good IFE and food for Y. I guess AA needs to improve on that end. How is their new IFE on 77W?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting airdfw (Reply 66):
3-4-3 is more bearable if you have good IFE and food for Y. I guess AA needs to improve on that end. How is their new IFE on 77W?

9" touchscreen with thousands upon thousands of hours of on-demand content and international WiFi.
a.
 
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Tugger
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 13):
Where will they draw the line? Why not convert 767's to 8 across and A-330's to 9 across? I'm not being sarcastic.

When passengers stop booking these seats.

Right now it is not easy or normal to compare this element (personal seat space) when selecting a flight (for most coach travelers it is not something they think of, unlike a FF). Price and schedule are really the only easily visible elements that people compare.

I guess we could make airlines include "space" (seat width and pitch) on their reservation sites similar to how we are starting to require restaurants to include calories on their menus, it is a real part of the cost of what you are choosing and knowing it up front is when you would need to know it. It is only when people know upfront and clearly and plainly that they might really start to change.

But I also do not think most people would realize the difference in the "standard" widths and pitch and how it affects comfort.

And for those that are visual:

(wow those are tiny aisles!)

Tugg

[Edited 2013-06-03 17:02:02]
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Viscount724
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 32):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
AC is set to take delivery of 5 new 77W with 3-4-3 configuration.

Didn't AC go to great pains to claim that this configuration, front and back, is a one-off (or five-off I guess) that in no way indicates future plans?

That's what they say now, but in the longer term if most of your competitors are 10-abreast it's hard not to follow as it's been proven many times that Y class passengers aren't willing to pay more for more seating space, and few of them are aware of the differences.

Quoting bohica (Reply 34):
Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 13):
Why not convert 767's to 8 across and A-330's to 9 across?

Some charter carriers have done that.

No major full-service scheduled carriers have ever operated 8-abreast 767s or 9-abreast A330/340s. They're even worse than 10-abreast 777s. Air Inter's A330s were 9-abreast but their longest flight was about 90 minutes.

Quoting ChazPilot (Reply 28):
but if they've invested in those slim line type seats that I see more of, then perhaps they can add an extra seat across without it seeming more confined for the pax. Today's tech. makes ergonomic designs with lumbar support and slim hard shell backs quite common.....seats that you can practically fit between your thumb and forefinger!

The new thin-back seats with little padding are fine for an hour or two, but after 12 or 14 hours the lack of padding makes them feel very hard. And while they improve legroom they do nothing to improve shoulder room. Putting 10 people in the space of 9 can only be less desirable. But, as mentioned, the airlines are lucky that 99% of passengers are unaware of the differences and consider price as the #1 factor when booking.
 
Mir
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 68):
(wow those are tiny aisles!)

And those guy's shoulders are significantly impinging on the seat next to him. Put a similar person in the aisle seat and the poor soul in the middle will have lost about a third of his seat width.   

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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N62NA
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 64):
I'm talking about scheduled time, not the assumption that you will get hit with a mechanical delay, baggage loading delays, etc. that you're presenting.

OK.

I was talking about actual time spent in the seat.  
 
Mir
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 71):
I was talking about actual time spent in the seat.

Which, if you add in your delays, still ends up being longer on a long-haul flight than on a transcon.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
L1011
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 3):
For Air France and KLM, I thought these were special configurations for leisure destinations. Is this "airline speak" for "this is what we tell people until we can get all of the -200's reconfigured?"

This is what Eastern told me the first time I flew in a 9-abreast L-1011. They said they were converting only a few to that configuration. That turned out to be completely false, as I never flew on an 8-abreast L-1011 again.

I flew on a 10-abreast DC-10 on World Airways, and on a 10-abreast L-1011-500 on Delta before they converted the ones they got from United to 9-abreast. They were both very uncomfortable.

Bob Bradley
Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
 
AirbusA6
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:29 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 68):
When passengers stop booking these seats.

Right now it is not easy or normal to compare this element (personal seat space) when selecting a flight (for most coach travelers it is not something they think of, unlike a FF). Price and schedule are really the only easily visible elements that people compare.

I guess we could make airlines include "space" (seat width and pitch) on their reservation sites similar to how we are starting to require restaurants to include calories on their menus, it is a real part of the cost of what you are choosing and knowing it up front is when you would need to know it. It is only when people know upfront and clearly and plainly that they might really start to change.

At what point will this become compulsory OR will an internet booking site start providing this information? Imagine if Expedia, for example, starting listing likely seat pitch and seat width next to its prices, I'd certainly use them rather than another booking site, as it's relevant information for my booking and saves having to go to seatguru etc. They already indicate the aircraft type, so they have a reasonable idea of the configuration of the plane.
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quiet1
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:11 am

While I have yet to experience 3-4-3 on a 777, I tend to be in the group who cringes about the prospect of doing so.

However, what do you all think about the fact that Air New Zealand came out as #1 in the list of best economy classes of 2013 when they have 3-4-3 on their 777-300ERs and apparently will expand it to their 777-200ER fleet? On that list at #5 best economy classes is Etihad who also flies 3-4-3 on 777s.

(Reference: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013 (by nicholasjet Jun 4 2013 in Civil Aviation))
 
ogre727
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 68):

Passengers will always go for the cheaper option. I think that this madness will stop only when we have a crash in which the tiny isles are proven to be a contributing factor to the death toll. Unlikely but I think its the only way this will stop, safety, not comfort.
I am between the devil and the deep blue sea
 
CXB77L
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 49):
The 77W is becoming a 21st century menace when it comes to traveling in Y, and in most cases a thing to avoid.
I'm not sure if a 9-across 787 will be better. It's going to be tight for sure.

No it isn't, it's the airlines that configure their aircraft in a tight configuration that's the "menace", not the aircraft type itself. Many aircraft have started its service life with a lower seat count than when they ended. The 777 is not the first, nor will it be the last. I fail to see why it is being singled out  

And no, a 9-across 787 will not be better.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 74):
At what point will this become compulsory OR will an internet booking site start providing this information? Imagine if Expedia, for example, starting listing likely seat pitch and seat width next to its prices, I'd certainly use them rather than another booking site, as it's relevant information for my booking and saves having to go to seatguru etc.

Obviously when people start demanding this information be provided. I think the very fact that most internet booking sites lists fares by price alone suggests that the overwhelming majority of the travelling public will book with price as their first priority.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
boilerla
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 55):
I have flown only twice in a 3-4-3 777 (it was a return CDG-HKG flight on an AF in 2009). In both cases I had a window seat, with an occupied seat on the other side. It was really difficult : permanently touching the neighbor (and it was worst for him, having somebody on both sides), and the wall (paper thin armrest requiring to put the arms between the thighs).

  

You guys are joking if you think 7-10 hour trips are the worst. Ever flown EK on LAX-DXB? How about LAX-FRA? Now those are long flights. And trust me, you notice the difference between 3-4-3 and and 3-3-3 on those flights.

If the other carriers follow suit, fine. But until then, I'll avoid any plane that is configured like it,.
 
eaglepower83
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:45 pm

So, who's gonna be the first one to install these?

http://www.travelsnitch.org/wp-conte...oads/2010/07/TS_standing_seats.jpg
 
oc2dc
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 79):
So, who's gonna be the first one to install these?

http://www.travelsnitch.org/wp-conte...s.jpg

That's funny. No joke, FR was in talks with Boeing about creating such a configuration for their aircraft. Boeing said absolutely not!

I pray to baby Jesus that something like this never happens.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
rwy04lga
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting superdash (Reply 9):
That is a differentiation from United and Delta

I don't know about United, but Delta has 9 abreast in the entire Y cabin....AA has 10 abreast, except in MCE, yep...that's different. Delta's Economy Comfort equals (~) AA's MCE in seat pitch and width.

So, explain again how AA's product is better than Delta's. Please?  
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gilesdavies
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
More seats means lower CASM which allows AA to lower fares which generates traffic to fill those extra seats.

Can you show me these lower fares and how to get them?

Looking at flights from London to LA later this year and AA are definately not coming out the cheapest (by several £100) on Expedia.co.uk and Netflights.com... Cheapest I am getting is BA, UA and US, where none of them fly a 10 abreast 777.

I highly doubt any of the major airlines flying 10 abreast, are offering cheaper flights on head to head routes with airlines that operate other aircraft type or 777's with 9 abreast.

I would only expect the low fares to be reflected in the long haul low cost carriers like Air Asia X, where you can forgive narrower seats.
 
Gasman
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:45 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 77):
The 777 is not the first, nor will it be the last. I fail to see why it is being singled out

You're right, it's not the aircraft's "fault" as such, but the 777 is being singled out because it is the aircraft that airlines are using to explore whole new levels of passenger discomfort. When the 747 started out, it was 9 abreast. The 'cramped end of life' version was 10 abreast, still way more comfortable and spacious that a 10 abreast 777. Similarly for the DC-10; it started life as an 8 abreast aircraft. It finished as 9 abreast, yet its cabin is only marginally narrower than that of a 777.
 
AADC10
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:49 am

The reason is quite simple. Passengers will still fly on the cheapest ticket, even if it is in a 10 abreast 777. While UA and DL have yet to go to 10Y, several European carriers have already gone to 10Y. I suspect that rather than be forced back to 9Y by UA and DL, those two will join the race to the bottom and go 10Y.

The 10Y 777 and 9Y 787 will have narrower seats than the 7Y 767s and 8Y A330s that used to be the mainstay of Transatlantic air. Actually CO lead the death spiral with their 757 EWR-Europe flights and their 17" seats.

Cramming in more seats also has the benefit of making C look even better, so more passengers will insist upon it.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
Similarly for the DC-10; it started life as an 8 abreast aircraft. It finished as 9 abreast, yet its cabin is only marginally narrower than that of a 777.

Yep. I remember the 8 abreast DC-10s. That is why AA painted Luxury Liner on the side. Now 787s are 9 abreast in a narrower cabin. At lest IFE is better now.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 84):
I remember the 8 abreast DC-10s. That is why AA painted Luxury Liner on the side.

All AA widebodies (747-100, 747SP, DC-10, MD-11, A300, 767) used the LuxuryLiner branding for quite a few years, regardless of seating configuration.
 
BLRAviation
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting intermodal64 (Reply 30):
Now you have me wondering about a 747 with 3-5-3.

There is a thread about a 11 abreast A380.  
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CXB77L
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RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
but the 777 is being singled out because it is the aircraft that airlines are using to explore whole new levels of passenger discomfort.

And the 8-across 767, 9-across A330, 10-across DC-10s and L-1011s don't count? Don't forget that the A350 will also be available with a 10-across economy configuration for airlines that choose to use it. Yes, those last five words of the preceding sentence is the key - airlines choose the configuration, so whether or not it is comfortable depends largely on what the airlines decide to equip their aircraft with.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
When the 747 started out, it was 9 abreast. The 'cramped end of life' version was 10 abreast, still way more comfortable and spacious that a 10 abreast 777.

I'll admit to never having been on a 777 equipped with 10 across in economy, but comfort is a subjective measure. There are both positive and negative anecdotes, even on this very thread, so there are clearly differening views on this issue. While I cannot argue with the numbers - a 777 cabin is narrower than the 747 cabin, ergo fitting the same number of seats and aisles on the aircraft means something's got to give - taking into account seat width as the sole determinant of 'comfort' is a little misleading, when seat pitch, and legroom, plays a role as well. Subjectively, from my point of view, legroom is more important than width.

I have no argument with people expressing a preference for other aircraft over a 777, as that is entirely their prerogative, but I do have an issue with people stating words to the effect of:

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 49):
The 77W is becoming a 21st century menace when it comes to traveling in Y, and in most cases a thing to avoid.

The above statement implies, to me, that

(a) All 777s are like that; and
(b) All 777s should be avoided

That is a gross generalisation of what is ultimately the subjective opinion of each individual passenger.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
Similarly for the DC-10; it started life as an 8 abreast aircraft. It finished as 9 abreast, yet its cabin is only marginally narrower than that of a 777.

There are/were 10 abreast DC-10s and L-1011s.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4501
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 87):
The above statement implies, to me, that

(a) All 777s are like that; and
(b) All 777s should be avoided

That is a gross generalisation of what is ultimately the subjective opinion of each individual passenger.

Clearly he is expressing an opinion and an opinion is uniquely one's own by definition, so I don't see the need to call him out for just expressing an opinion. We all can distinguish between fact and opinion on here.
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 479
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 87):
The above statement implies, to me, that(a) All 777s are like that; and(b) All 777s should be avoidedThat is a gross generalisation of what is ultimately the subjective opinion of each individual passenger.

Well, I don't think that was what I said, and it wasn't what I meant.

I can see by your signature that you are a 777-fanboy, so I'll try to be a little less generalising  

True, not all 777s are like that, but 80-something percent of all new delivered 77W uses the infamous 3-4-3 config.
So when you see a 77W on your itenary or when you book a ticket, you know you will most likely have a tight and uncomfortable journey ahead of you. That's a reason, for me, to avoid 777s (depending on airline).

And unlike you, I have endured a flight on a 3-4-3- equipped 777 in Y (actually 4 times), and it has by far been the worst flights I have ever been on. After the last HKG-SVO flight on SU, I have wowed to myself never to fly on a 3-4-3 777 again.

Reason for singling out 777s is because they right now are the tool for airlines to make Y-travel worse than ever. "The race to the bottom" has been mentioned and the 77W is IMHO the symbol of that right now, as the 787 will probably also be with it's 9-across config, and the A350 after that.

Speaking as an aviation enthusiast, I have a soft spot for the 777 which I find to be an extremely good looking aircraft.
It's safetyrecord also speaks for itself.
The 777 is a beast.

but for a pax I find it to be a menace.

sorry  
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 87):
Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
Similarly for the DC-10; it started life as an 8 abreast aircraft. It finished as 9 abreast, yet its cabin is only marginally narrower than that of a 777.

There are/were 10 abreast DC-10s and L-1011s.

It was mainly charter and leisure carriers that operated them at 10-abreast. Very few major scheduled carriers had 10-abreast DC-10s or L-1011s. One notable exception was Pan Am whose 12 L-1011-500s were 10-abreast in Y and best avoided. They remained 10-abreast during their brief service with UA after they purchased Pan Am's transpacific routes which included the L-1011s. DL later acquired a few of them and changed them to 9-abreast.
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:55 pm

The A388 has a cabin width 28 inches wider than a B777, and a Y class seat is what? say 18 or 19 inches wide?
Therefore it is completely ridiculous from a product consistency point of view to offer 10 across on both a B777 and A380, it has to be 9 on the B777 and 10 on the A380 OR 10 and 11 abreast respectively! Anything else is contradictory/hypocritcal. Please discuss;
 
Gasman
Posts: 2203
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 89):
Reason for singling out 777s is because they right now are the tool for airlines to make Y-travel worse than ever. "The race to the bottom" has been mentioned and the 77W is IMHO the symbol of that right now, as the 787 will probably also be with it's 9-across config, and the A350 after that.

Speaking as an aviation enthusiast, I have a soft spot for the 777 which I find to be an extremely good looking aircraft.
It's safetyrecord also speaks for itself.
The 777 is a beast.

but for a pax I find it to be a menace.

Completely agree. Maybe, if an "avoid 777" message went viral, some airline execs would sit up and take notice. A* NETTERS! THIS IS YOUR HOUR!

 
 
mhkansan
Posts: 884
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:02 pm

RE: AA 777 3-4-3 In Economy

Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:56 pm

I've flown in Y on the 77W: Brazil Part 1 | AA 77W Inaugural DFW-GRU (by mhkansan Feb 25 2013 in Trip Reports)

I was in the VERY back, 43A, but I had no issues at all with the seat width. Yeah overhead bin space was an issue, but it is on most flights these days.

The frequent fliers I know who've ridden in the back of it are generally more impressed with the international wifi, new (huge!) PTVs, and the power ports at every seat than the width of the seat.

It also does add considerable value to the MCE product.

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