Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
bcoz
Topic Author
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:00 pm

AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:20 pm

Haven't seen this posted yet:

http://newyork.newsday.com/news/new-...a-flight-to-atlanta-1.5407351?qr=1

100 high schoolers on an aircraft? If I was another passenger on that flight, I think I might have gone insane. The only thing that raises an eyebrow to me is that the WN spokesmen says they issued vouchers to students and faculty who were on the aircraft. I would think it would be the other way around.... with vouchers being issued to the remaining passengers.

bcoz
 
ALTF4
Posts: 1229
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:01 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Vouchers should not have gone to the students. I have seen people kicked off the plane in the past for not complying with directions from the flight crew.

Serves the little snots right.

Oh, and I like how the executive director said that he thinks AirTran acted out of line. Come on, man - own up. Your kids acted out of line.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1750
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:50 pm

They had it coming. Giving vouchers sent the wrong message.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:02 pm

This is a fascinating story, in my opinion, and it certainly raises a lot of questions.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 1):
Oh, and I like how the executive director said that he thinks AirTran acted out of line. Come on, man - own up. Your kids acted out of line.

Kids are kids but they have to follow directions while on an aircraft. I don't disagree with this at all...but did it really need to come to kicking all the students off the flight? The crew has balls for sure, but makes me wonder if it could have been handled differently. Before anybody attacks me mercilessly because I didn't automatically back the crew, I am just playing devil's advocate here. Unless any of us actually witnessed the event or have any further information, we'll never know how bad it actually was on that plane and it may come down to legal action to decide if it was warranted.

As for the vouchers, I have to think that not all 100 students were being rowdy or not following directions. As I remember high school, of any 100 students you probably had 10% 'troublemakers' or clowns, and the other 90% or so probably following directions and doing as they were told. They probably could not remove one student without removing all 100 students - that's understandable - but that still doesn't mean that every student is guilty by association and deserved to be kicked off the plane. I know that if my child was part of a class trip that involved getting kicked off of a flight because a handful of other students, I would be expected a full refund from the airline (and a full explanation) at the very least.
None shall pass!!!!
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5160
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:12 pm

It's another episode of New Yorkers behaving badly. Seriously, the leaders of the kids group had little control over them. And if they acted up causing a potetial safety hazzard then the answer is to toss their tushy's off the flight. And no vouchers.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2206
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:16 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 1):
Oh, and I like how the executive director said that he thinks AirTran acted out of line. Come on, man - own up. Your kids acted out of line.

Having worked in Lakewood, NJ which has a very large othrodox community like certain sections of Brooklyn, the childrens behavior and the especially the executive director's response does not surprise me. That being said I have also met some very kind and respectful members of the orthodox community.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22032
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:19 pm

The best part was that in one of the interviews, one of the students claimed that they were being treated like terrorists because they're Jewish (it was a Jewish school).

I literally LOLed. Yes, rampant antisemitism is a real problem in airports and on airlines these days.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:20 pm

Good for the Captain! As an A+ Elite I love it.
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11173
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 3):
As I remember high school, of any 100 students you probably had 10% 'troublemakers' or clowns, and the other 90% or so probably following directions and doing as they were told. They probably could not remove one student without removing all 100 students - that's understandable - but that still doesn't mean that every student is guilty by association and deserved to be kicked off the plane. I know that if my child was part of a class trip that involved getting kicked off of a flight because a handful of other students, I would be expected a full refund from the airline (and a full explanation) at the very least.

I am wondering if there was an issue with chaperones/adults and not enough of them to toss off just a portion of the kids (there may be rules at the school, i.e. two adults with any group etc.)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
because they're Jewish

I saw something on that too, but not regarding terrorism, just that they were Jewish and therefore there was something nefarious, something prejudicial in them being booted.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-06-05 16:37:19]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10005
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:41 pm

You should see the comments at the Atlanta Journal Constitution and CNN.

CNN started this off when they responded to the Tweet wave from the kids, using ridiculous language (like the "outrage" over the screwup had gotten louder), then someone with some sense started editing the article so it's now a "dispute". Of course, they went with a completely one-sided article, then mellowed it over the next 24 hours.

They finally got a business traveler to weigh in and -- no surprise -- he said that 10 or so kids wouldn't sit and turn off their phones, so the plane couldn't move, the 10 kids were switching seats so they could sit with their friends and wouldn't stay seated, they "laughed at" the flight attendants, and the captain twice came on the PA to get them settled and finally threw them off. When the shocked adult begged for another chance, the captain told him he had already given him two, there were other people on the plane, and the plane had to depart. (Buh-bye now.)

The School's entitled reaction explains entirely why the kids acted in the entitled way that they did. Case closed in my book.

One teacher (not from that school) who posted on the AJC site gave some insight. He said that the same kids who disrupt classes disrupt field trips, that if he reports the kid to the principal and the principal calls the parents, the parents invariably defend their kid and make a rucus, so teachers and principals have given up trying to enforce normal discipline and instead have become inured to a lot of behavior on field trips that the general public wouldn't tolerate. As long as the little darlings aren't injuring each other, if they are rowdy or loud, teachers just ignore it.

Take that attitude onto an airplane and you get what happened here.

Obviously, if you or I were switching seats, refusing to sit, refusing to turn off the cell phone, laughing at the flight attendants, we'd be gone. And it's a good lesson for the other 90 kids: your idiot friends will screw up a good thing for you. In the Marine Corps, the group is punished for the bad acts of one or two, so the the good soldiers (of the same age as these little darlings, by the way) have learned to "help" their lesser peers understand how to behave.

And as a paying passenger, there is no reason whatsoever that I should be forced to endure the bad behavior of these coddled, entitled not-so-young people.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:45 pm

I wish the airlines would allow the crew members in situations like this be interviewed. The CNN story also had quotes from another passenger on the airline.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/us/new...nts-off-plane/index.html?hpt=tr_c2
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1625
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
I am wondering if there was an issue with chaperones/adults and not enough of them to toss off just a portion of the kids (there may be rules at the school, i.e. two adults with any group etc.)

My guess is that when the people at fault were threatened with being tossed off the aircraft, someone made a point about the parents not being around. There would have been more liability if they had left kids behind or sent them on to their destination unsupervised, than by following the course of action that they chose.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11173
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 11):
My guess is that when the people at fault were threatened with being tossed off the aircraft, someone made a point about the parents not being around. There would have been more liability if they had left kids behind or sent them on to their destination unsupervised, than by following the course of action that they chose.

and reading the following post from above:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 9):
When the shocked adult begged for another chance, the captain told him he had already given him two,

If there was only one adult with group then that would really settle it. You can't remove kids without having an adult (at least unless the airline wants to take responsibility).

If there was only one adult with the group, I must say I am really surprised. In mind for that many kids I would think you would need/want at least four adults.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tharanga
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:29 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 9):
given up trying to enforce normal discipline and instead have become inured to a lot of behavior on field trips that the general public wouldn't tolerate. As long as the little darlings aren't injuring each other, if they are rowdy or loud, teachers just ignore it.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Kids get away with some nonsense in their normal environment. They learned the hard way that this might not work in the real world.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5160
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 5):

Makes sense however, I live in an area that has a large Orthodox communitty and there are some Rabbi's/leaders who still go old school like many Catholic schools. A little encouragement with the ruler goes a long way in keeping the troops from getting naughty. My beloved dad told stories of getting thwacked on the knucles back in the day. However this was when planes had propellers.

No matter the ethnicity of the groups, it's a reflection on today's permissive society that condones doing your own thing, the new morality and a lack of manners. And, in most cases you can trace this back to the parents. They do not know nor care about how to raise their kids. And as others mentioned it's usually a minority that make life suck for the majority. In this case a few kids screwing up an entire flight and the rest of their classmate's itinerary.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10005
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:50 am

Well-said, Zippy.

My father can still point to places where a Nun's yardstick twacked his hands in elementary school. It may or may not have something to do with his gentlemanly demeanor. One thing for sure: before every class trip, my parents sat me down and explained that I was expected to behave even better than I would behave if they were present, and that there would be consequences if I didn't.

And my teachers always explained before we left school for a trip what was expected of us, and attempted to enforce it.

A person in her 30s who I am very close to is Israeli. At 18 -- the age of these kids -- she had to perform two years of military service. Although this person is free-spirited and works in the arts, she is also the most disciplined (and one of the most mannered) people I know. She knows about self-control, and practices it.

An attorney I used to work with went to West Point. Successful and well into his 60s, he still sits ramrod straight at the table and eats impeccably-neatly. His closet is impeccable, and if you go in his laundry room, he has folded his workout t-shirts like they are on display at The Gap.

Structure and discipline have followed these folks -- and helped them -- well beyond the formative years. Needless to say, when I look at their work and their productivity, it is clear that they strive to do things right every time, and, more generally, to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, for themselves and for those around them.

I am glad that in our country we don't have compulsory conscription, but it is interesting that it can serve as a sort of last-ditch backstop to teach discipline and civility where other institutions (family, school) have failed to do so. What is worse is when, as here, the family and school promote a Me First, no-consequences ideology that causes these Little Darlings to be completely unequipped to encounter the Real World.

That school and those kids should be embarrassed and apologizing, rather than seeking to cast themselves as victims.

They should be, further, absolutely ashamed by the rhetoric that some employed -- clearly they are quite disconnected from the reality of the events and historical figures to whom they have embarrassed themselves by alluding.

[Edited 2013-06-05 19:04:24]

[Edited 2013-06-05 19:06:45]
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14840
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:01 am

Funny story on this topic: in about 1999, we went on a middle school class trip from Chicago to WAS. We came home on a UA 72S DCA-ORD. Just about the entire Y cabin was full of students from our school and another middle school trip (President's Day weekend was--and maybe still is--a very common time for these trips). There were not enough adults to fill the exit row seats, and none of the students was 15. They wound up bumping some students and teachers, putting them in cabs to IAD, and seating standby passengers in the exit row seats. Other than a loss of cabin lighting on climbout that spooked a lot of people, I remember it being a very quiet flight; there hadn't been much sleep on the trip and most folks slept. I think I would have been a little queasy getting on the plane had I been one of the standby business travelers, though . . .
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
just that they were Jewish and therefore there was something nefarious, something prejudicial in them being booted.

Jeez, the Jewish card gets used a lot - perhaps these kids think being Jewish allows them to ignore flight safety rules.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
contrails
Posts: 1314
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 2):
They had it coming. Giving vouchers sent the wrong message.

I agree 100% with the crew on this. The kids, and their chaperones, should have been kicked off the plane. I don't agree with the decision to give them vouchers.

I've been on too many flights where kids acted up. If they can't behave they deserve to be kicked off.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
just that they were Jewish and therefore there was something nefarious, something prejudicial in them being booted.

Jeez, the Jewish card gets used a lot - perhaps these kids think being Jewish allows them to ignore flight safety rules.

I remember the stories of Irish kids throwing snowballs at old Jewish men in the Boston with rocks inside the snowballs, including my great grandfather, seriously injuring him. West Side Story was originally written as East Side Story about the disputes between Irish and Jewish immigrants on the lower East Side. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The vast majority of Jews do not act in this way, but remember, these were kids from NYC. I do blame the chaperones. But keep the Jewish card comments to yourself. It is very offensive.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2769
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 19):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
just that they were Jewish and therefore there was something nefarious, something prejudicial in them being booted.

Jeez, the Jewish card gets used a lot - perhaps these kids think being Jewish allows them to ignore flight safety rules.

I remember the stories of Irish kids throwing snowballs at old Jewish men in the Boston with rocks inside the snowballs, including my great grandfather, seriously injuring him. West Side Story was originally written as East Side Story about the disputes between Irish and Jewish immigrants on the lower East Side. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The vast majority of Jews do not act in this way, but remember, these were kids from NYC. I do blame the chaperones. But keep the Jewish card comments to yourself. It is very offensive.

milesrich..Anti-semitism is alive and well on this forum, so you should not be surprised. I see it all the time, but rarely respond. It is usually the ignorant, that do it. My opinion on the matter is, you put a bunch of spoiled kids on an airplane, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Islamic, you are going to have problems. Plain and simple.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10005
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:15 am

There are folks who have been victimized in the past and folks who are currently being victimized. No question about it. Those folks need to be protected, and should speak up when discriminated against.

Unfortunately, along with those folks are going to be the lazy and self-absorbed who will seek to take advantage of any effort by others to do good. The folks who get on the bus AFTER the accident so they can try to collect compensation. The folks who try to excuse their own bad behavior by saying that they were "targeted" because they are [name protected class]. I am probably a member of more than one protected class, I guess. I never really think about it, because I usually ask myself first, "What did I do that might have caused this?"

I have always thought that members of the protected class would do well to smack down those others in the class who seek to exploit it without justification.

But they rarely do.

The issue is not the group that whomever throws up as justifying their behavior in the face of "unfair" treatment.

It is the people who have told the kid that he should seek to defend, rather than apologize for, his unfortunate behavior. If you do that, then the kid never tries to use membership in a particular class or group as an unjustified excuse, thus hurting the cause of the very group he identifies with.

Put simply, the crying "Wolf" desensitizes society and makes it skeptical, which hurts those folks who really do have a grievance.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4610
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 14):
s a reflection on today's permissive society

Whatever would make you think the rowdyism and uncontrolled behavior has not been common in all ages and eras.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:46 am

I'm confused as to how this flight was operating at 4am. Does WN/FL operate NYC-ATL flights that early?

Quoting milesrich (Reply 19):
The vast majority of Jews do not act in this way, but remember, these were kids from NYC. I do blame the chaperones. But keep the Jewish card comments to yourself. It is very offensive.

What's offensive is that some of the group would try and make the crew look anti-semitic when there's no evidence to support that claim. That sort of behavior only cheapens claims of anti-semitism when anti-semitism is actually happening.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 20):
Anti-semitism is alive and well on this forum

Calling out someone for claiming that they were treated a certain way simply because they're Jewish and not because of their behavior isn't anti-semitism.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:51 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 19):
The vast majority of Jews do not act in this way, but remember, these were kids from NYC.

And the vast majority of Catholics dont throw stones either.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 19):
I remember the stories of Irish kids throwing snowballs at old Jewish men in the Boston with rocks inside the snowballs,

These were american kids - and catholic. The kids on the flights were American kids and jewish.

No need to bring Ireland into the story. I never mentioned Israel.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 19):
But keep the Jewish card comments to yourself. It is very offensive.

Keep the anti-Irish card to yourself. it is unnecessary.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 20):
Anti-semitism is alive and well on this forum, so you should not be surprised

Are you accusing me of Anti Semitism?

it was immature of this 18 year old adult to blame being kicked off the flight for being Jewish. It is wrong for him to accuse the airline of anti semitism.

Just because I'm Irish, doesnt mean I'm not Jewish.

[Edited 2013-06-05 20:53:04]
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6183
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:14 am

They showed their pic on the jetway on the local news.

They were dressed like normal looking kids...public school, private school, religious school...no one would have known.

Nice job to the crew.

Listen when you get on a plane...or don't get on a plane.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:41 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 20):
milesrich..Anti-semitism is alive and well on this forum, so you should not be surprised.

No it's not...its the rest of us calling out a few who feel they are victims solely because of their ethnicity, when they were just behaving like asshats!
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 26):
No it's not...its the rest of us calling out a few who feel they are victims solely because of their ethnicity, when they were just behaving like asshats!

I see it all the time with multiple races.. my own included.. and I think it's a complete Aberration.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8723
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Unless WN/FL keeping cash under the mattress, discipline FAs and apologize to these students. Otherwise financing is going to dry up pretty quickly. If the FAs were smart enough they could have easily control these teenagers by delegating that task to chaperones.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 28):
Unless WN/FL keeping cash under the mattress, discipline FAs and apologize to these students. Otherwise financing is going to dry up pretty quickly. If the FAs were smart enough they could have easily control these teenagers by delegating that task to chaperones.

Part of the reason I like WN is because they actually step up and PROTECT their workforce when it's pretty clear that they weren't in the wrong...they don't subscribe to "the customer is always right." I'm sure these morons in Jersey will make a big fuss about it for a few months, then it will quietly go away and it will still be business as usual for WN.
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:36 pm

I def. think that these kids should have been reprimanded in some form or another but was it fair for the flight crew to throw off 101 people so their co-workers would have to spend hours rebooking and cleaning up their mess.

It was 101 high school kids. Like someone said before, it was probably only a handful of pain in the asses. Just suck it up for the 2 hour flight and move on with your day.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
It was 101 high school kids. Like someone said before, it was probably only a handful of pain in the asses. Just suck it up for the 2 hour flight and move on with your day.

If they were being unruly and disruptive on the ground, where there was a solution to the problem, how much flight interference would they be once airborne?
Also, if the entire group was on one itinerary, it's easier to rebook the whole group than break up the group piecemeal...of course, that was ultimately done, it seems...but still.
IMO, FL/WN crew did the right thing.
 
txjim
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 28):
If the FAs were smart enough they could have easily control these teenagers by delegating that task to chaperones.

Kind of degrading to FAs, no? First, the adults should have reacted after the pilot warnings. Second, you are assuming that the chaperones were not approached. Based on post-incident comments from the school, my bet would be on the chaperons defending the demon spawn.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
Just suck it up for the 2 hour flight and move on with your day.

Except for that one little tiny problem: The crew would be violating about three levels of regulations if they departed with these brats out of place.

I've "sucked it up" on many flights where a team, class or other group behaved like the flight was their own private charter and made the rest of the cabin miserable. It happens. But failure to follow orders of the flight crew IS a valid reason to be put off the flight.

One of my worst travel nightmares is be to be on a flight with 100 of just about ANY class trip......

[Edited 2013-06-06 07:31:18]
 
trav110
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
I def. think that these kids should have been reprimanded in some form or another but was it fair for the flight crew to throw off 101 people so their co-workers would have to spend hours rebooking and cleaning up their mess.

It is likely school policy that the chaperones are responsible for the students they're chaperoning and under no circumstance would leaving some of the students behind be an acceptable option. These kids sound like a bunch of entitled brats that have never had to deal with the consequences of their actions, but regardless of that fact disobeying flight crew instructions is not an option- it's a federal offense. It sucks that few ruined it for many, but life isn't fair and that's what happens sometimes. Maybe they'll learn something after this.

[Edited 2013-06-06 07:32:08]
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8723
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:13 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 32):
Kind of degrading to FAs, no?

Definitely not. If it was any other group from any other geographical area I would have supported FAs. I don't want Southwest/AirTran to join Helen Thomas and Charley Sheen. We are down to 3 Legacy and 1 LCC, I don't want any further consolidation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 1):
Vouchers should not have gone to the students.

While I agree that vouchers should not be given to those who refuse to comply with lawful requests, I do not think that you should punish those who had not violated any rules and who were not misbehaving. Given that simply kicking off the offending children was considered not possible or desirable (for reasons of guardianship), providing vouchers to accommodate the other students is not unreasonable.

If the reports that the chaperons were in the main seated 'up the front' while the children were seated 'down the back' are true, unless seating was determined by the airline, it would seem that the chaperons abdicated their responsibility. If I were a parent of one of the well-behaved children whose travels were disrupted, I would be questioning the schools choice of competent employees.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
Just suck it up for the 2 hour flight and move on with your day.

And ignore the remaining passengers' safety and comfort? This was not a private charter flight where other passengers' comfort and safety could be ignored. Quite apart from the fact that cabin crew are required to abide by and enforce air safety regulations. Just because a large portion of the passenger list was a private school excursion it does not mean that different standards apply.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
txjim
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 34):
We are down to 3 Legacy and 1 LCC, I don't want any further consolidation.

And that is related to this topic how?  

To quote NOMAD: "Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated. "
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 32):
. Second, you are assuming that the chaperones were not approached. Based on post-incident comments from the school, my bet would be on the chaperons defending the demon spawn.

From the perspective of a former public school teacher, this is typical behavior for *private* school teachers.

"They pay; therefore, they rule."
 
trav110
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 35):
If I were a parent of one of the well-behaved children whose travels were disrupted, I would be questioning the schools choice of competent employees.

In a lot of cases parents volunteer to chaperone these kinds of trips, they usually aren't hired. Plus 100 people on a 737 is more than half of the total passengers - you'd think the chaperones wouldn't have found it difficult to find seats that are close to the students so they could keep some semblance of control over them. Hell, these kids are 17/18 years old, the chaperones probably expected they would conduct themselves like the adults they are instead of like a bratty bunch of kids.
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 35):
And ignore the remaining passengers' safety and comfort? This was not a private charter flight where other passengers' comfort and safety could be ignored. Quite apart from the fact that cabin crew are required to abide by and enforce air safety regulations. Just because a large portion of the passenger list was a private school excursion it does not mean that different standards apply.

Lets not go overboard here and say that they would disrupt the passengers safety. Comfort being disrupted? absolutely but safety? I travel pretty often and have come across large groups of teenagers traveling. Some have been great and some have sucked. But what always seems to happen with the ones that sucked is that after the "wide eyes" of "hey, we are on a senior trip and we are teenage idiots" wears off they close their eyes or turn on their ipads after 20 minutes in the air.

To offload 100 kids....unload bags....delay the flight...force the ground crew to rebook 100 kids through multiple cities.....just seems a bit much.

People like to blow stuff way out of proportion.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:04 pm

One of my favorite quotes was the chaperon saying, "well, there might have been several kids who had to be told more than twice to..." They shouldn't have had to been told more than ONCE.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 31):
Also, if the entire group was on one itinerary, it's easier to rebook the whole group than break up the group piecemeal...

Especially because if you pull some of the kids off, you're going to have to pull at least one chaperone off as well, and then you've got the issue of whether you still have enough chaperones for the rest of them.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
txjim
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 39):
Lets not go overboard here and say that they would disrupt the passengers safety
Quoting jfk69 (Reply 39):
People like to blow stuff way out of proportion.

I don't believe you understand that there are no shares of grey here, it's a binary proposition. Either you are seated with electronic devices off or you are not. The comfort debate is not in play. We can argue all day about the real impact of electronic devices but it's meaningless in this context.

If the students are not complying, the flight cannot depart. And the insanely small number of adults in the group means the disruptive element cannot be seperated.

Perhaps there is a reason that only two adults volunteered to supervise the group....
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 39):
Lets not go overboard here and say that they would disrupt the passengers safety.

Basically you are saying that the crew should, in order to make things easier on themselves and possibly other employees, turn a blind eye to violations of regulations. Kids not sitting down and fastening their seatbelts, no worries. Kids, not switching off their electronic devices, no sweat. Great, until there is an incident on the ground and a kid who is not buckled up is thrown forward and injured. You can imagine how the argument would run then and how many law-suits would follow? The parents would be suing the school, the chaperones, the airline and anyone else they can think of.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 39):
after 20 minutes in the air.

Except that the problem arose prior to departure. Should we have one rule for well-behaved passengers and another for those who might "after 20 minutes in the air" decide to calm down a bit. Explain that to the other passengers who have complied with the request. Perhaps the aircraft could have simply sat on the ground in the hope that 20 minutes was enough and faced penalties for a delayed departure.

Whether the requests are reasonable, based on scientific evidence or whatever, is another question, but rules must be applied fairly and evenly as and mandated. The crew are not given the option of deciding whether they know better than the FAA. If the rules are wrong, present evidence to have them changed. In the meantime, should we really be looking for excuses for bad behaviour?
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8723
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 42):
it's a binary proposition. Either you are seated with electronic devices off or you are not.

Are you saying when you are on FA duty, you are 100% sure all your passengers, cabin crew and flight crew turned off their electronic devices.

BTW this is public forum, you are not FA and others are not passengers, don't be combative.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 43):
Basically you are saying that the crew should, in order to make things easier on themselves and possibly other employees, turn a blind eye to violations of regulations. Kids not sitting down and fastening their seatbelts, no worries. Kids, not switching off their electronic devices, no sweat.

I don't think he's saying that - he's saying that those kids who were being problematic should have been kicked off, but not the whole group. Which is an idea that has some merit, but I don't think it's as feasible as it seems on the surface.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
I don't think he's saying that - he's saying that those kids who were being problematic should have been kicked off, but not the whole group. Which is an idea that has some merit, but I don't think it's as feasible as it seems on the surface.

yes, this is exactly what I am saying.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 43):
Except that the problem arose prior to departure. Should we have one rule for well-behaved passengers and another for those who might "after 20 minutes in the air" decide to calm down a bit. Explain that to the other passengers who have complied with the request. Perhaps the aircraft could have simply sat on the ground in the hope that 20 minutes was enough and faced penalties for a delayed departure.

So take off the 10 students who are being problematic and let the remaining 90 fly. And forget about facing penalties for a delayed departure considering the plane was delayed for 45 minutes when they off loaded.

To take off 100 people is flat out unreasonable!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Are you saying when you are on FA duty, you are 100% sure all your passengers, cabin crew and flight crew turned off their electronic devices.

BTW this is public forum, you are not FA and others are not passengers, don't be combative.

Agreed, well said.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1625
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
I def. think that these kids should have been reprimanded in some form or another but was it fair for the flight crew to throw off 101 people so their co-workers would have to spend hours rebooking and cleaning up their mess.

It was 101 high school kids. Like someone said before, it was probably only a handful of pain in the asses. Just suck it up for the 2 hour flight and move on with your day.

Doing the right thing often means making more work for yourself and others. Those crewmembers knew that there would be phone calls from the company and paperwork to fill out regarding the situation, in addition to the rebooking that the agents would have to do. Yet, they still had the group removed from the flight. Most crews are willing to overlook minor stuff in order to avoid the extra (unpaid) work that they will have to do in a situation like this. For the crew to have removed the group, it wasn't one or two people and the issues weren't minor.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 46):
So take off the 10 students who are being problematic and let the remaining 90 fly.

Because removing minors from a flight and leaving them with no adult supervision and no transportation would have been a better solution? The airline employees had a very small number of very bad choices to pick from. The one they chose is the only one that is legally defensible.
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 47):
Because removing minors from a flight and leaving them with no adult supervision and no transportation would have been a better solution? The airline employees had a very small number of very bad choices to pick from. The one they chose is the only one that is legally defensible.

I never said leave them alone. Obviously a chaperon would have to be pulled off as well.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 47):
For the crew to have removed the group, it wasn't one or two people and the issues weren't minor

I must say that in the world of Social media and camera phones, I am shocked no one has posted any video of the incident.
 
nipoel123
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:23 am

RE: AirTran Boots 100 Kids On LGA-ATL Flight

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 46):
So take off the 10 students who are being problematic and let the remaining 90 fly.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, it is very likely that there were not enough chaperones to do this.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Are you saying when you are on FA duty, you are 100% sure all your passengers, cabin crew and flight crew turned off their electronic devices.

You can never be 100% of this, unless you strip search every person entering the plane and put all the electronic devices in a secure stowage location. Some people might put their device away when the FA comes by, only to start using it as soon as they're past. Not much you can do about that other than the option I just gave. However, if the kids keep using their device, with an FA standing next to them telling them to put it away, then that means they are refusing to comply with cabin crew requests, while being 'caught in the act', which, in my opinion, is a valid reason for kicking them off the plane.
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos