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N821NW
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CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:16 pm

What could have caused this?

Quote:
An Air China 757 had to return to Chengdu (China) on Thursday morning (June 6) when the aircraft struck an unknown object damaging the nose (radome) of the jet.
http://airnation.net/2013/06/05/nose-damage-air-china-757/

@Mods: If duplicate thread exist please delete.
If only more people understood the pure beauty of the Airbus A320 and A330 family's...
 
Viscount724
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting N821NW (Thread starter):
What could have caused this?

Probably a bird. I've seen several photos much like that following bird strikes. One below, an AC 763 that struck a bird on approach to GVA in March.

http://avherald.com/img/air_canada_b763_c-fmwv_geneva_130311_1.jpg
 
aloges
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Probably a bird.

not really:

Quote:
A bird strike has likely been ruled out since no bird remains were found, according to reports.

Does anyone who's familiar with the setup have an idea whether or not this sort of damage would affect the weather radar?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
rampbro
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:34 pm

Do birds fly at FL 260? I certainly don't imagine they would.

Could the radome structurally fail, perhaps through a manufacturing defect or previously undetected damage?
 
N821NW
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Probably a bird.

If it would have been a bird there would have been blood and feathers on the nose but there where none...

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
Does anyone who's familiar with the setup have an idea whether or not this sort of damage would affect the weather radar?

Good question, I would think not but who knows.
If only more people understood the pure beauty of the Airbus A320 and A330 family's...
 
Viscount724
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Probably a bird.

not really:

Quote:
A bird strike has likely been ruled out since no bird remains were found, according to reports.

It doesn't say where the aircraft was when it struck the object. If it wasn't directly over the airport it's unlikely they would find any bird remains from such an event.
 
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Aesma
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:41 pm

A drone maybe ?

An UFO at this point  
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Viscount724
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting N821NW (Reply 4):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Probably a bird.

If it would have been a bird there would have been blood and feathers on the nose but there where none...

Not always.
 
AR385
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:58 pm

I suppose it could have been ice. Specially if no remains of anything were found.
 
Caspian27
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:47 pm

I'd say a weather balloon or something else attached to a balloon is a prime culprit.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
N821NW
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:50 pm

I was thinking that maybe a pressure differential caused this, what do you guys think?
If only more people understood the pure beauty of the Airbus A320 and A330 family's...
 
connies4ever
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting N821NW (Thread starter):
What could have caused this?

Probably one of those cheaply-made J-20 prototypes.  
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Not always.

You're grasping at straws here....if a bird hit the radome so hard as to crush it, there would be some kind of bird DNA.

Simple as that.
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
N821NW
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 12):
You're grasping at straws here....if a bird hit the radome so hard as to crush it, there would be some kind of bird DNA.

  

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Not always.

Could you please show me a picture of a airplane involved in a bird strike where there is no blood or feathers on the fuselage, wing or engine?
If only more people understood the pure beauty of the Airbus A320 and A330 family's...
 
Okie
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 9):
I'd say a weather balloon or something else attached to a balloon is a prime culprit.

I have not done a search, but a few years ago there was a similar incident with an S80/MD80 about the time of the AA/TW transition.
The cause was delamination of the radome from water getting into the material and freezing and thawing over many cycles damaging the structural integrity of the radome. Then the air pressure just collapsed the dome.
I believe it was on tech/ops, but the real question over there was would the delamination and ice formation in the laminations seriously effect the wx radar returns.
I believe the answer was that it would and the wx radar should have been written up long before the delamination got to that point.

Okie
 
PC12Fan
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 3):

Birds most certainly can be found at 26,0000 ft. Waterfowl have been known to fly even higher than that. IIRC, I believe one of the highest bird strikes ever recorded was a flight level in the upper 20's.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
N821NW
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Birds most certainly can be found at 26,0000 ft. Waterfowl have been known to fly even higher than that.

Ok I'll bite, where do they get there needed oxygen? They carry a oxygen bottle or something?
If only more people understood the pure beauty of the Airbus A320 and A330 family's...
 
PVGAMS
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:06 am

link with additional picture, no blood:
http://www.chinanavis.com/an-air-chi...object-and-forced-to-return-154953

[Edited 2013-06-05 18:06:49]
 
cheeken
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 3):
Do birds fly at FL 260? I certainly don't imagine they would.

Yes they seem to, and in the same country where this incident happened! But looking at the damage done to the radome and the lack of splat, it couldn't have been one, me thinks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-headed_Goose
 
LH707330
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
I suppose it could have been ice. Specially if no remains of anything were found.

This could be it, maybe another airliner had something frozen on that broke loose. You don't need a big piece at 500 mph...
 
YLWbased
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:53 am

Have anyone not thought of the idea of space junk (debris)?

Quote:
Although most debris will burn up in the atmosphere, larger objects can reach the ground intact and present a risk.

On 27 March 2007, wreckage from a Russian spy satellite was spotted by Lan Chile (LAN Airlines) in an Airbus A340, which was travelling between Santiago, Chile, and Auckland, New Zealand, carrying 270 passengers.[109] The pilot estimated the debris was within 8 km of the aircraft, and he reported hearing the sonic boom as it passed.[110] The aircraft was flying over the Pacific Ocean, which is considered one of the safest places in the world for a satellite to come down because of its large areas of uninhabited water.

Source: Wikipedia

YLWbased

[Edited 2013-06-05 18:55:02]
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brilondon
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:23 am

If it was over China, then it could have been a spy drone or a UFO from outer space. 
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
AR385
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 19):
This could be it, maybe another airliner had something frozen on that broke loose. You don't need a big piece at 500 mph...

I was thinking more metheorological though. Maybe some ice from CBs nearby?
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting N821NW (Reply 10):
I was thinking that maybe a pressure differential caused this, what do you guys think?

Not a bad theory. The damage looks a little "symettrical" to me Would be amazing if an impact with anything was that clean
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:53 am

Quoting N821NW (Reply 13):
Could you please show me a picture of a airplane involved in a bird strike where there is no blood or feathers on the fuselage, wing or engine?

I can't tell you the reliability of this, but...

http://airnation.net/2012/05/14/bird-strike-us-airways-orlando/

Quoting N821NW (Reply 10):
I was thinking that maybe a pressure differential caused this, what do you guys think?

I doubt it. If you look at the link in Reply 17 at the bottom photo, it looks like there is scuffing inside the bowl, if you will, of the crushed area, appearing that something actually hit it.
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LV
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 20):
Have anyone not thought of the idea of space junk (debris)?

I was thinking meteor/ meteorite (someone with more knowledge of the terminology can correct me that). But the amount of heat and friction involved with that would have cause some melting of the pain I would think.
 
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Scooter01
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:22 am

Could one of these get high enough?


Scooter01   
There is always a good reason to watch airplanes
 
sweair
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:32 am

We come in peace humans, but only if you dont squash us on the randome!
 
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CALTECH
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting N821NW (Reply 13):
Could you please show me a picture of a airplane involved in a bird strike where there is no blood or feathers on the fuselage, wing or engine?
You are here.
 
woodsboy
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:18 am

During my years at Alaska Airlines there was an MD-80 that had a bird strike on the nose shortly before arriving at FAI...no blood or feathers but a nicely cracked radome. Although the cracks were only visually superficial MX said that even small cracks can cause the radome to fail in flight with 500kts +/- of wind pushing against it. Birds can and do fly at or above FL200, although it is rare. Migrating Bar Headed Geese fly as high as 32,000 feet but only in flocks/ migration so you would see those buggers before you ran into one or twenty of them.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:30 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 28):

The first pic of the NWA 757 doesn't prove the point...the second pic clearly has bird feathers "from a collision with a Canada goose" sticking out of the radome so I'm not sure how that fits with the quote you "quoted" (pardon the pun)...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
connies4ever
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Birds most certainly can be found at 26,0000 ft. Waterfowl have been known to fly even higher than that. IIRC, I believe one of the highest bird strikes ever recorded was a flight level in the upper 20's.

Anecdotally, my father reported more than once that when taking a Viscount up for a post-mx test flight out of YWG, Canada geese were sometimes observed during spring/fall migration season flying above FL200.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:23 pm

Quoting N821NW (Reply 16):
Ok I'll bite, where do they get there needed oxygen?

I'm not a biologist so I have no idea how they do it, but than can do it. There is a small biological explaination in this link.

http://askville.amazon.com/highest-g.../AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6813383
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
AngMoh
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:47 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 32):
I'm not a biologist so I have no idea how they do it, but than can do it. There is a small biological explaination in this link.

From the following scientific paper:

http://worldbirdstrike.com/IBSC/Amsterdam/IBSC25%20WPSA3.pdf

A Ruppell’s Griffon collided on 29 November 1973 with a commercial aircraft
at an altitude of 37,000 feet (11,280 m) over Abidjan, Ivory Coast, Africa
(Laybourne 1974).
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Apparently none of you saw The Twilight Zone movie...

 
PanAm1971
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:18 pm

That's not the Twilight Zone. That's the latest cost saving measure by Ryanair.  
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 34):
Apparently none of you saw The Twilight Zone movie...
 
MHTripple7
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 28):

That NW 757 was NOT a bird strike. If I remember correctly, the radome just collapsed in on itself. I would venture to guess that something similar happened to this CA 757.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...31107a-06ee-458d-be64-5c80ef60d52b
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 30):
the second pic clearly has bird feathers "from a collision with a Canada goose" sticking out of the radome so I'm not sure how that fits with the quote you "quoted"

Look at the circle on the left side of the image. The poster said that if it had been a bird strike, some residue would have been left on the impact site.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 16):
Ok I'll bite, where do they get there needed oxygen? They carry a oxygen bottle or something?

Maybe because they don't have to flap their wings and simply glide with the winds aloft, they can preserve the oxygen longer. It's like asking how can whales stay underwater for so long.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
Maybe some ice from CBs nearby?

Doubt it. Ice in clouds isn't nearly strong enough to cause such an impact. Unless it flew during a severe thunderstorm, with the hail in its core and the airplane flying through it (which is unlikely due to the strong wind shear present, causing some serious turbulence and rather angry passengers), I don't think hail might have been the culprit. Any info on the weather conditions? Lightning, perhaps?

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 9):
I'd say a weather balloon or something else attached to a balloon is a prime culprit.

Not sure. Unless China uses a big package while getting atmospheric soundings, I don't think a weather balloon (or rather, the object it carries) was the culprit.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 10):
I was thinking that maybe a pressure differential caused this, what do you guys think?

If anything, the radome should have blown off. Pressure moves from high to low. At that altitude, the pressure is low. Assuming the pressure inside the radome is higher, it should have bulged/popped outward.

Material fatigue on that side could be a possibility...

[Edited 2013-06-06 09:00:21]
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
RussianJet
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting N821NW (Reply 16):
Ok I'll bite, where do they get there needed oxygen? They carry a oxygen bottle or something?

Apparently bird lungs are able to cope in low-oxygen environments, and can indeed be found up to even 29,000 rarely, as mentioned in the following text from Stanford:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/How_Fast.html

Pretty amazing - I too thought there was no chance they would be able to fly that high.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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CALTECH
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 30):
The first pic of the NWA 757 doesn't prove the point...the second pic clearly has bird feathers "from a collision with a Canada goose" sticking out of the radome so I'm not sure how that fits with the quote you "quoted" (pardon the pun)...

Both radomes show no blood or feathers at the impact site, two different causes.

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 36):
That NW 757 was NOT a bird strike. If I remember correctly, the radome just collapsed in on itself. I would venture to guess that something similar happened to this CA 757.

Radomes can collapse on their own. And some bird strikes show no blood or feathers.

http://aviationnewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/air-canada-boeing-767-bird-strike.jpg

You are here.
 
mrskyguy
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:24 pm

The real clue to what happened here is the very same "scuffing" that MountainFlyer was talking about in his earlier post.

Edited to point out scuffing:


Original:
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
andz
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Birds most certainly can be found at 26,0000 ft.

Count the zeros. not much of anything at that altitude, let alone birds  

I do remember seeing a front page headline many years ago on one of the British red tops about a plane hitting a goose at some absurd altitude. Did a search but couldn't find it.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
rwessel
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting andz (Reply 41):
Count the zeros. not much of anything at that altitude, let alone birds

I do remember seeing a front page headline many years ago on one of the British red tops about a plane hitting a goose at some absurd altitude. Did a search but couldn't find it.

Highest recorded bird strike was at 37,000ft, with a Griffon Vulture off the coast of Africa. The highest reported bird strike in the US was at 31,000ft:

http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_...life/resources/media/bash90-11.pdf
 
UA772IAD
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting andz (Reply 41):
Count the zeros. not much of anything at that altitude, let alone birds

I remember seeing a documentary not too long ago showing some waterfowl's migratory path over the Himalayas. These brids, which I believe travel between India and China to breed were filmed flying over some of the highest peaks in the range.


Here's a shot of collapsed radome. The caption mentions a lightning strike on approach:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rutger Geerling



I wonder if lighting could be a possibility? It's odd that there was no mention from the flight crew about striking something in flight.

[Edited 2013-06-06 12:14:59]
 
United1689
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting N821NW (Reply 16):
where do they get there needed oxygen? They carry a oxygen bottle or something?

All of the answers to this so far seem correct, however I will add that because birds are moving forward as they fly, they are likewise forcing more air into their system making it easier for them to get the necessary oxygen. Keep in mind that even humans can breathe at that altitude, there are in fact people who have summitted Mt. Everest without the use of bottled oxygen.

I think it is quite possible that this was a bird strike, however I think a radome collapse is more likely. Usually bird strikes tear a hole in the aircraft instead of just leaving a dent.



 
Viscount724
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Not always.

You're grasping at straws here....if a bird hit the radome so hard as to crush it, there would be some kind of bird DNA.

Simple as that.
Quoting N821NW (Reply 13):
Could you please show me a picture of a airplane involved in a bird strike where there is no blood or feathers on the fuselage, wing or engine?

See Reply 39. Also no blood or feathers on the AC 763 in the photo in Reply 1 that I mentioned.
 
mrskyguy
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting United1689 (Reply 44):
I think it is quite possible that this was a bird strike, however I think a radome collapse is more likely. Usually bird strikes tear a hole in the aircraft instead of just leaving a dent.

I disagree due to the evidence the object impact left on the radome. Take another look at the photo below of the incident aircraft and you'll see the residue left behind by whatever caused the "glancing blow" to the radome surface. Based on the observation of this image, I do not see these scuffs to be evidence of paint delamination due to abrupt impact/surface change:

Edited to point out scuffing:
Original:
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting N821NW (Reply 13):

I have personally hit a bird on approach, a bit of damage to the de-ice boot and structure behind it, but no blood. I saw the bird after, no visible damage although he was dead as can be.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):

Birds most certainly can be found at 26,0000 ft. Waterfowl have been known to fly even higher than that. IIRC, I believe one of the highest bird strikes ever recorded was a flight level in the upper 20's.


If I recall correctly the highest bird strike was in the high 30's.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
SuperDaveMc
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:00 pm

FINALLY! I bet it was
Larry The Cable Guy's
Bobble Head that was lost in space!



coincidence? I think not!
A&P Mech J31/32/41, BAe ATP, BAe 146, DHC-7/8, SD360
 
UA772IAD
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RE: CA B752 Hit By Something In The Sky

Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 46):

From those angles, it doesn't look like a bird strike either. It's not a single clean impact, or long streaks as seen in some of the other bird strike photos on here. Those scuffs almost look like burn marks, then again, if I could enlarge/zoom in on the image, maybe it would look different.

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