VS Little Red Update

by738 · Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:54 pm

Does anyone have any news of how the Little Red routes to MAN, ABZ etc are doing
With talks of fare blood baths and poor connection numbers, I just wondered if things were bedding in and improving.
Load on some MAN services for example have been pretty low. Not much business news on a search expect this from a few months ago
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...gers-shun-onward-flights-1-2933685

edina · Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:09 pm

I worked the first ABZ-LHR, BA1301, a few days ago...we were overbooked, and ended up with a full load of 132, and 3 staff pax on jump seats. Four of our pax were involuntarily moved over to the first VS flight departing round abot the same time from the adjacent gate.....ground staff told me it took their load up to 26.

starguy · Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:47 pm

In all fairness, only time will tell and not anywhere near enough time has passed to be able to make comments about the overall success of Little Red which is only a matter of a couple of months old.
We must also remember that Little Red services were only really set up to act as a feed alternative to BA, not as a money making machine for VS.

airbuseric · Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 2):
We must also remember that Little Red services were only really set up to act as a feed alternative to BA, not as a money making machine for VS.

But VS is a commecial company and have to make a profit to survive, so a healthy business is neccesary.

Altenative to BA or not, if VS Little Red service will continue to proof loss-making, without any doubt VS will pull out this market again. And they won't need too long time to draw conclusions.

anstar · Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:55 pm

Several trip reports on V-flyer certainly suggest loads are improving. Given it has only been running a couple of months I would still expect the routes to be getting established.

I believe EDI is doing very well - are VS allowed to apply to use the remainig 3 available remedy slots to increase service to a remedy destination (ie EDI)?

LondonCity · Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 4):
I believe EDI is doing very well

EDI should do well. There's much business and leisure traffic on this route and at times Little Red has much cheaper fares than BA. And the flights will get even busier during the time of the Edinburgh Festival.

starguy · Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 3):

But sometimes it is necessary to take a hit on lower cost lower yielding services in order to help drive interest in your higher yielding long haul services. BA would not keep half of its short haul services if they weren't directly pushing up load factors on their long haul services where the real money is if customers are paying the right price.

GCT64 · Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 4):
I believe EDI is doing very well

I've done a couple of LHR-EDI returns on Little Red. The loads do seem to be getting a little better but there are still plenty of empty seats (and that is at pricing well below BA's). One of my colleagues did say that he was on a fairly full EDI-LHR, so perhaps progress is being made.

I've got some more LHR-EDI returns on Little Red coming up, so will see how things look in the peak of the EDI tourist season.

I hope the route does work out for Virgin as they are now my preferred airline for London-EDI cf. Easy and BA. (but, of course, part of the reason that I like them is because the planes are pretty empty!!)

TeamintheSky · Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:13 pm

I flew the early morning VS LHR - EDI flight last Saturday. Great service, great looking plane, tons of open seats. I would guesstimate that it was only 40-50% full. The flight was only 61 pounds booked only a week or so out.

On the way back, while I took BA, the queue for the VS flight did look fairly full. I hope the flights make it, as the service was better on VS. However, that might be given the BA flight was full.

Regards,

Team

goosebayguy · Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:15 pm

I looked at flying MAN to LHR when little red first set up. Can't say the prices were all that attractive though.

davidho1985 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 3):

The purpoae of Virgin Red is to enable VS to secure LHR's slots from BMI, instead of generating profit from it's operation

willd · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 3):
But VS is a commecial company and have to make a profit to survive, so a healthy business is neccesary.

There is nothing wrong with other areas of the business helping to keep Little Red afloat if needed. It is quite common in large companies (of all types not just aviation) for certain areas of the business that are very healthy to assist less other healthy areas.

As others have said this is all about the short haul flights providing feed to the long haul services. There are many routes that BA would not operate on their own if it was not for the feed they provide. Equally, whilst I am no load expert, one imagines there are routes that BA operate which are kept afloat by more healthy areas of the business.

To answer the oP- its really too early to say.

slinky09 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:25 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 10):
The purpoae of Virgin Red is to enable VS to secure LHR's slots from BMI, instead of generating profit from it's operation

As others have said, it's to provide feed for long haul operations.

Quoting willd (Reply 11):
As others have said this is all about the short haul flights providing feed to the long haul services. There are many routes that BA would not operate on their own if it was not for the feed they provide.

Absolutely, I've seen reports that even in the early days as many as a third of Little Red passengers are connecting to long haul, when you consider most people book their trips a long way out, this is good stuff just weeks into the operation.

Loads are rising, and the service is getting good reviews too.

bastew · Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:10 am

I can see Little Red's loads improving once the VS/DL JV gets approval.....and when VS finally joins an Alliance.

MillwallSean · Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:44 am

While singing the praise of feed to the longhaul. Lets not forget, BMI proved that getting feed from alliance partners at LHR wasnt profitable. Not at all.
It sure filled the setas but it didnt turn a profit. Maybe feed from DL etc will be different. Somehow I doubt it though.

What happens when passengers that needs a connecting flight is added to a lossmaking venture? (yes VS was lossmaking)
It increases costs. Increases them alot. Add on that this is LHR where passengers and bags etc need to transfer between Terminal 1 and Terminal 3 just to complicate things even further/ addmore costs.
My opinion, people connecting on Little red will do two things; drive the yield down and the costs up.

Id go as far as saying Little red in its present form wont be sustainable and it wont be looking the same in 18 months time.
MAN will be gone as soon as they are allowed to (not sure what the rules were governing the slots they took control of)

EDI might work as a standalone flight. EDI sees enough demand to LHR and Greater London as it is and VS does attract a fair share of the city kind of types and hipsters that enjoy the Virgin brand. Several banks, government employees and other institutions travels frequently to EDI.
ABZ well I doubt it, VS needs to capture some high yielding oil traffic for that and to be honest VS range of oil destinations isnt that good not do they have many corporate contracts from that sector. Weekend travellers (big market) and London bound business travellers from ABZ wont sustain the route.
MAN that has to be a high amount of connecting traffic from MAN. I dont think enough Mancurians would fly to LHR and then take the train to London when they have nonstop trainservice as it is. Unless of course the plane is heavily discounted and they outcompete the train on price. But good luck doing that profitably when your airports are MAN and LHR...

Thats my little analysis.

starguy · Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:46 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 14):
MAN will be gone as soon as they are allowed to (not sure what the rules were governing the slots they took control of)

VS already owned the slot that they are using for MAN, they were taken back from Cyprus Airways. I believe that part of the conditions of being awarded the slots from BA was that VS has to operate all of the slots that they owned.

Who knows what will happen in a year or 18 months, but coming to a conclusion a couple of months into the operation is very premature to say the least. I hope it will be a success, even if only to help VS to profitability overall.

flyingthe757 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:56 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 14):
MAN that has to be a high amount of connecting traffic from MAN. I dont think enough Mancurians would fly to LHR and then take the train to London when they have nonstop trainservice as it is. Unless of course the plane is heavily discounted and they outcompete the train on price. But good luck doing that profitably when your airports are MAN and LHR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkklzY3LpKU

The train company is advertising like there is no tomorrow, and have a great advert playing on most channels at the moment, link above, they even have the tag line "Fly Virgin Trains"

I have not seen anything for Little Red!

RyanairGuru · Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:05 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 14):
While singing the praise of feed to the longhaul. Lets not forget, BMI proved that getting feed from alliance partners at LHR wasnt profitable. Not at all.

Precisely, and that's the sad reality that Little Red face.

It works for BA because they have such huge scale that they can easily cross subsidise some loss making routes to bring added value to the network.

BD couldn't do it because they lacked the longhaul presence. Most of their connecting passengers were connecting to other carriers. That revenue is always trash. Always. I seem to remember reading here that BD made something like GBP6 for LHR-MAN pro rata traffic

In another example (one I can provide actual numbers for) a couple of years back my father flew BNE-LAX-CLT-GSO on QF/US. LAX-CLT-GSO is almost a third of the distance of BNE-LAX.

His ticket cost $4600 (Y+) of which US Airways got $12. Yes, 12. This was detailed in the fare breakdown.

In VS case I see the worse of two models: (1) they don't have either the size nor the profits of BA to cross-subsidise their own flying, and (2) they are picking up BD style pro rata traffic. In both cases it doesn't sound like they're on to a winner, unfortunately

[Edited 2013-06-16 05:06:22]

AAMDanny · Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:01 pm

After the 3 years does VS have to use the remedy slots for EDI and ABZ? Can they use them on other cherry picked routes around Europe?

by738 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:15 pm

They can do as they wish after the 3 years, and no doubt will... MAN I suspect would be first to go.

ThomasCook · Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:24 pm

Hi,

I was on this mornings LHR-MAN VS3041 and upon checking in at -90 I was SEQ number 89. After door close I think it would be fair to say the loads was around 75%.

Great service and a breathe of fresh air compared to the BA flights I'm acustomed to.

Thanks

flyingthe757 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
Great service and a breathe of fresh air compared to the BA flights I'm acustomed to.

How so?

Bongodog1964 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 19):
They can do as they wish after the 3 years, and no doubt will... MAN I suspect would be first to go.

The rules are quite restrictive, I recall that the remedy slots can only be used on European routes that aren't already operated.

ThomasCook · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 21):
How so?

Well my opinion is subjective however after several hundred commutes between Manchester and Heathrow to work, bmi where always my preference and suffice to say, VS is now my preferred carrier.

Thanks

flyingthe757 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 23):

You did not answer the question? I'm interested in what the differences are between the 2 carriers?

boysteve · Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 15):
VS already owned the slot that they are using for MAN, they were taken back from Cyprus Airways. I believe that part of the conditions of being awarded the slots from BA was that VS has to operate all of the slots that they owned.

But CY still fly twice daily into LHR? Before Cyprus' recent problems did CY fly 6 times a day and now 4 daily slot pairs have gone back to VS?

willd · Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 12):
Absolutely, I've seen reports that even in the early days as many as a third of Little Red passengers are connecting to long haul, when you consider most people book their trips a long way out, this is good stuff just weeks into the operation.

Yep Slinks- so really it is too early for others to make a judgement. I would be interested to know how BA do on newly opened feeder routes in the first 3-4 months of action.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 17):
n VS case I see the worse of two models: (1) they don't have either the size nor the profits of BA to cross-subsidise their own flying

True re profits but what we don't know is how much VS is willing to absorb. I am no expert on any of this but usually being part of a bigger group of companies has its advantages in different group companies helping you out.

I think the easiest answer to the OP's question is lets wait and see. Too many on here want to see any Virgin branded company fail (usually becuase of a hatred of SRB).

anstar · Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 14):
While singing the praise of feed to the longhaul. Lets not forget, BMI proved that getting feed from alliance partners at LHR wasnt profitable. Not at all.

And lets not forget that BMI were feeding OTHER carriers long haul...

At least little red is feeding onto VS' own network. I am sure the crunched the numbers and saw how many pax were flying onto their network on BA routes to EDI/MAN/LHR.

To be honest i was surprised they started MAN with their own slots instead of GLA, but they must have the numbers!

Passengers that try little red seem to love it and the more regulars they get flying and the more time they have to sell the fares then I can only imagine it getting busier and busier. Lets not forget they only really got the rights to the slots at the end of last year so had 3-4 months to get a short haul operation up and running despite many saying they wouldnt.

Quoting willd (Reply 26):

Yep Slinks- so really it is too early for others to make a judgement. I would be interested to know how BA do on newly opened feeder routes in the first 3-4 months of action.

Looking at Leeds and Rotterdam they both started with low loads - in fact I believe Leeds still has low loads despite cutting back on frequency.

It is also interesting to note that BA will be reducing MAN-LHR by a daily frequency when timetables change.

GCT64 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 23):
Well my opinion is subjective however after several hundred commutes between Manchester and Heathrow to work, bmi where always my preference and suffice to say, VS is now my preferred carrier.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 24):
You did not answer the question? I'm interested in what the differences are between the 2 carriers?

I can't answer for "ThomasCook" but I can answer for me: I do ~40 round trips London-EDI per annum.

My number one priority is punctuality: In 2013 Easy have been the best (mostly arriving ahead of schedule), VS have been on time or no more than 15 mins late, BA have cancelled every(!) LHR-EDI or EDI-LHR I have taken with them in 2013 (including the last one home one night from EDI, so I had an extra night in the very crappy hotel they put us into in Edinburgh)

U2 and VS

BA

In other factors:
Price: In rising order of cost, the seat price generally goes U2->VS->BA, but my overall journey cost is usually cheapest on VS (down to the relative cost of the home-LHR/LTN journeys for me)
Space: The VS planes are (currently) the emptiest and the best for "personal space". 100% probability of having an empty seat next to you. (Easy's weakest metric: usually full and little leg room / personal space and have to pay to select a specific seat)
In flight service: Best free food and drink is on VS
Staff: VS (EI) and Easy staff are always very good, BA mostly very good but not always
Cabin baggage allowance: For what I travel with, all are equally OK

So I am booking quite a lot of VS LHR-EDI-LHR returns at the moment (in fact I have just booked another one

)

jumpjets · Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 14):
(not sure what the rules were governing the slots they took control of)

Quoting by738 (Reply 19):
They can do as they wish after the 3 years, and no doubt will... MAN I suspect would be first to go.

As StarGuy mentioned the MAN slots were already owned by VS and so do not form part of the remedy slot allocation - so VS could stop MAN tomorrow if they wanted and use the slots as they see fit.

As far as the remedy slots used for EDI and ABZ they could all be swapped to either of the two airports if VS wanted and after 3 years they can, if my reading of the EU ruling is correct [see paras 1.31.and 2 of the terms of slots issue], transfer those slots to other routes but they have to be one of the routes designated in the EU ruling - so a limited number of destinations which if I recall correctly include NCE, CAI and MOW - though their ability to serve those destinations [such as MOW] could be hampered by the bilaterals.

So as nice to have as they are these slots are of limited use - and if VS don't use them then they have to surrender them back to the trustee who organised the remedy slot allocation - they can't just hold onto them and not use them or lend them to a friend...

LH121GLA · Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 27):
And lets not forget that BMI were feeding OTHER carriers long haul...

VS are feeding others as well as their own network.

anstar · Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 30):
S are feeding others as well as their own network.

Only Jet and Cyprus are codeshare partners currently. So hardly a plethora of carriesr like BD used to.

Most PAX are connecting VS to VS... unlike BD who were connecting BD to STAR (and not getting any of the longhaul revenue) - therefore VS are already getting more revenue than BD did like for like.

vv701 · Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:54 pm

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 18):
After the 3 years does VS have to use the remedy slots for EDI and ABZ? Can they use them on other cherry picked routes around Europe?

After 3 Summer and 3 Winter Seasons the remedy slots - those used to operate the ABZ and EDI flights - can be used on any European route or to the long haul destinations that the remedy slots could also have been used, namely Cairo, Moscow and / or Riyadh, but not to any other long haul destination,

As others have said the MAN slots are not remedy slots but were slots previously owned but not used by VS. They had to use them themselves rather than continue to lease them out in order to qualify to obtain the remedy slots.

The above is a simplification of the complex rules that may be found primarily in Section 1.3 here:

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/merg...6447_20120330_20212_2323262_EN.pdf

GCT64 · Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 31):
Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 30):
S are feeding others as well as their own network.
Only Jet and Cyprus are codeshare partners currently.

I believe SQ, SA, NZ are also codesharing on the VS Little Red flights (or at least some/most of the EDI flights)
Presumably DL will at some point.

LH121GLA · Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 31):
Only Jet and Cyprus are codeshare partners currently. So hardly a plethora of carriesr like BD used to.

Most PAX are connecting VS to VS... unlike BD who were connecting BD to STAR (and not getting any of the longhaul revenue) - therefore VS are already getting more revenue than BD did like for like.

Many airlines have VS UK Domestic prorates - EY, MH and MK spring to mind.

Do you know for a fact BD got no revenue from STAR carriers? I don't believe that for a minute.

OA260 · Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 34):
Do you know for a fact BD got no revenue from STAR carriers? I don't believe that for a minute.

BD got a small ''sector'' fee for connecters DUB-LHR BHD-LHR EDI-LHR GLA-LHR etc...

Anyway even if VS are making a bit more it wont save the routes. 12 months and it will be gone and the Shamrock will be back on those aircraft !

anstar · Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 34):
Do you know for a fact BD got no revenue from STAR carriers? I don't believe that for a minute.

I didnt say that they go NO revenue - best you re-read what I wrote... which was they got NO share of the longhaul revenue which is where the profts are to be made.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
Anyway even if VS are making a bit more it wont save the routes. 12 months and it will be gone and the Shamrock will be back on those aircraft !

12 months... wishful thinking. they have signed a 3 year contract with EI so you'll have to wait a little longer to see what happens.

dhr · Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:49 pm

A few weeks ago took the Virgin train to MAN from London and flew back with BA on the last flight of the day. All nine of us had first class service on-board. Fantastic when it's not a full flight.

ThomasCook · Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Got to love people's cynicism. Anyone wold think people are actually hoping they will fail and are subsequently looking forward to it. It's fabulous to have some competition against BA by a carrier offering a supperior domestic product. I get the impression that people don't like BA being given a run for their money.

From my experience so far, the staff are friendlier and warmer, the aircraft have a wonderful contemporary cabin making for a much more relaxing travel environment as apposed to BA. They also offer supperior catering with commonalities with VS longhaul and a welcome change from BA's infamous bird seeds.

Thanks

anstar · Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 38):
Anyone wold think people are actually hoping they will fail and are subsequently looking forward to it.

Probably the same people that said
- VS wouldn;t put a bid in for BMI
- VS are all hot air about getting the remedy slots
- When they announced MAN it would never start
- If they get the remedy slots they will not start domestic flying as it is all hot air

Well folks... fast forward... VS put their money where their mouth is. Get over it.

Things can only improve with VS and their domestic network given the developments in the pipeline and the product offered.

If people want to have a moan, how about moaning about the changes to the BA lounge offerings or the seat pitch on the bmi BA aircraft

OA260 · Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 36):
they have signed a 3 year contract with EI so you'll have to wait a little longer to see what happens.

Did you read the get out early clause?

Quoting anstar (Reply 39):
Well folks... fast forward... VS put their money where their mouth is. Get over it.

I would have invested in Gold

Quoting anstar (Reply 39):
Things can only improve with VS and their domestic network

Well in fairness they cant get any worse.... errr well I guess they could.

Still its good you are biased towards VS . I am not pro BA or pro VS but its all spin.

GCT64 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 7):
I've got some more LHR-EDI returns on Little Red coming up, so will see how things look in the peak of the EDI tourist season.

Was on a VS Little Red LHR-EDI this morning - much better (from VS' perspective) load factor this morning (75%-80%) than in my previous flights. In lay person / non-numerical speak the previous flights were "empty" whereas this one was "full". A significant amount of the pax appeared to be connecting from long-haul (you would expect this to take a little while to ramp up after the services were launched).

BlueShamu330s · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:26 pm

I have to admit, I'm a huge fan of Little Red and I use it often.

It's just so difficult getting on British Airways these days with ID90...

Rgds

by738 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 41):
In lay person / non-numerical speak the previous flights were "empty"

If that can't improve over the peak summer months, I would say that would be bad news indeed. Be interesting to see if they improve over July and Aug. The BA flights are usually pretty full at peak hours.

anstar · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):

I would have invested in Gold

Which has been going down recently... not such a great investment eh?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Still its good you are biased towards VS . I am not pro BA or pro VS but its all spin.

I might be - But I am also sick of the same old dinosaurs banging on about how crap VS is and how fantastic BA is. Competition is a good thing for consumers and without VS int he fold, BA would be a lot less innovative and quick to do some things... Just look at their current promotions where they specifically target connecting pax on EDI/ABS/MAN services only! Says a thing or too.

1400mph · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 44):
Competition is a good thing for consumers and without VS int he fold, BA would be a lot less innovative and quick to do some things..

Like offering flat beds, joining alliances, creating joint ventures and merging with other airlines ?

Apart from following BA with the first have they yet accomplished any of the others ?

What exactly is left ? PTV's in economy ?

Whoopee.

1400mph · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:15 pm

anstar...

Basically VS and its 'raison d'etre' has driven the airline into the red by being the catalyst that made BA more competitive ?

That's the general drift of what you're saying.

Do you not see the blazing irony in this and how it highlights how flawed their business model has been right from the start ?

anstar · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 45):

Like offering flat beds, joining alliances, creating joint ventures and merging with other airlines ?

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 45):

Apart from following BA with the first have they yet accomplished any of the others ?

Well I do believe VS had PTV's and Premium Economy ahead of BA.

All businesses need to change and adapt to changing market conditions and with the rise of the ME3 and consolidation like AF/KL., LH Group, IAG... the landscape has changed.... so you either adapt and survive or you fail. Currently alot of EU carriers are struggling so its tough times out there.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 46):
Basically VS and its 'raison d'etre' has driven the airline into the red by being the catalyst that made BA more competitive ?

Not at all. Virgin's reason to be is to be a challenger to the market leading brand... something they can still do with a partnership with another carrier. They will still b the under dog versus BA/AA but just may have a few more teeth to take to the fight :p

1400mph · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 47):
Not at all. Virgin's reason to be is to be a challenger to the market leading brand... something they can still do with a partnership with another carrier. They will still b the under dog versus BA/AA but just may have a few more teeth to take to the fight :p

I agree and good luck to VS. Am merely saying (probably in my over critical way) that it is not before time.

edina · Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 47):

Whilst it wasn't rolled out across the network BA were actually the first in the UK to offer a premium economy product called Economy Select on DC10s (in the area between Club World & door 3), and the upper deck on 747 Classics from LGW, and lasted 2-3 seasons IIRC, with separate check in, middle seats free & slightly better legroom as the differentiators. The product was a trial to see if the market would sustain the slightly higher fares charged, and after it was discontinued there was a small part of this product retained on just one route....on LGW-ISB you could pay a $100 supplement per sector to be seated in the upper deck economy cabin & this lasted to the end of 747 Classic services on the route.

Outside the UK two other airlines were noted for their premium economy products well before VS, namely EVA Air and UTA in France with their Harmony cabin.

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