NAV20
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:00 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 198):
That's $17M per jet.

Can't be sure - not enough 0's on my calculator   - but I suspect that they were talking European billions - which are 1,000 million, not the American 100 million?

However, that would point to a price per frame of $170M. As Stitch points out, no way Ryanair will be paying anything like that.

My guess is that the journalist who got the story first used 'American billions' and list prices, and did a bit of guessing - and a lot of other journalists blindly copied his/her figures............

[Edited 2013-06-20 00:21:43]
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zeke
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:17 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 198):
I read that they ordered 175 737s at $3 Billion. That's $17M per jet. Is Boeing giving them away?

Probably right, they would not be buying engines from Boeing. That would be another deal, those would most probably be a large lease deal from GE and Honeywell.
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flood
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:23 am

CFM valued the engine deal at $3.7 Billion list, maybe that's what the report was referring to.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 199):
That works out to just under $36 million a frame, which is in line with what WN pays.

Daniel Tsang of Aspire Aviation reported that the U2 A320 order was for a low $30 Million figure. Coupled with fleet commonality savings sounds like they got a bargain.

tortugamon
 
cmf
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:33 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 200):
but I suspect that they were talking European billions - which are 1,000 million, not the American 100 million?

That theory is nice but doesn't work as an "American" billion is 1,000 millions and an 'European" billion is 1,000,000 millions. I.e. an "American" billion is what you called an "European" billion and a "European" billion is 1,000 times more, not just 10 times.
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chiad
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 198):
I read that they ordered 175 737s at $3 Billion. That's $17M per jet. Is Boeing giving them away?

Dont say Boeing got raped again....
If so I am sure we will hear about it from a certain rude fellow soon enough.
 
LY777
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:56 am

No orders for Boeing, today?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
nomadd22
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 201):
Probably right, they would not be buying engines from Boeing. That would be another deal, those would most probably be a large lease deal from GE and Honeywell.

Uh....No. They're not selling frames for $17 million.
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SEPilot
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 200):
Can't be sure - not enough 0's on my calculator - but I suspect that they were talking European billions - which are 1,000 million, not the American 100 million?

I have been out of school for over 40 years, so maybe they changed something since then; but here in America I always thought that a billion was 1,000 million.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:11 am

The English Billion is always bigger than the American billion.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:20 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 204):
That theory is nice but doesn't work as an "American" billion is 1,000 millions and an 'European" billion is 1,000,000 millions. I.e. an "American" billion is what you called an "European" billion and a "European" billion is 1,000 times more, not just 10 times.

Historically, this was true. Nowadays, a UK billion = US billion (ditto with trillion). I'm not aware of anyone (Government or banks) that use the old billion (million x million) definition.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 209):
The English Billion is always bigger than the American billion.

I would disagree today.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/how-many-is-a-billion
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NAV20
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:56 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 208):
I have been out of school for over 40 years

I've been 'out' even longer than that, SEpilot!   But the original query was:-

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 198):
I read that they ordered 175 737s at $3 Billion. That's $17M per jet.

Commented on as follows:-

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 207):
Uh....No. They're not selling frames for $17 million.

My guess is that, if the deal goes through, given that it would be a very large order, the price of the 175 aeroplanes (including engines) would be close to half the normal 'asking.' Maybe around $100M. each? Therefore totalling (I think  ) about $17.5B?

Sounds like a pretty ambitious project. I certainly won't be rushing to buy shares in either airline.............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:05 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 211):
Maybe around $100M. each?

Impossible, the list price of the 737-800 is $89.1 million.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/prices/
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KarelXWB
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:17 pm

Sngapore Airlines and United Airlines firmed their 787 orders:

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
NAV20
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 212):
Impossible, the list price of the 737-800 is $89.1 million.

Thanks, KarelXWB. As in any other field, one 'lives and learns'............  
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
airlinebuilder
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:06 pm

Is Boeing just betting on the 787s on its sales, A seem to ba making a fortune on both its NB and WBs not to mention their sole VLA.

Almost at the home stretch of the Air show, any significant unexpected orders for Boeing that we can all be surprised?
 
dk1967
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 215):
Is Boeing just betting on the 787s on its sales, A seem to ba making a fortune on both its NB and WBs not to mention their sole VLA

Boeing firmed 205 737's this week. Have net firm orders of 591 for 737s this year.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting dk1967 (Reply 216):
Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 215):Is Boeing just betting on the 787s on its sales, A seem to ba making a fortune on both its NB and WBs not to mention their sole VLA
Boeing firmed 205 737's this week. Have net firm orders of 591 for 737s this year.

LOL 600 orders by June is now a failing grade.   Poor Boeing...

-Dave
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airlinebuilder
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:59 pm

all things being considered, I still believe Boeing has got to sharpen their marketing approach to the airlines, like seriously go through a very extensive evaluation of their skills on making their products more attractive as it is. Way too complacent thus the lagging, and undeniable trailing on the sales..... the B737 has always been their bread and butter, it is not suppose to be a surprise. What we can call significant are the unexpected patronage of the other product lines.
 
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kanban
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:05 pm

 
flood
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 219):
Per
http://www.businessinsider.com/ryana...rders-175-boeing-737-8-jets-2013-6 , it was $15 Billion spent..

Not literally... that's at list prices.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 218):

Who's "we"?   Also this is not the thread to criticize Boeing and their lagging sales and how they need to "sharpen its marketing skills". This thread is for PAS orders and announcements from Boeing.

Quoting dk1967 (Reply 216):
Boeing firmed 205 737's this week. Have net firm orders of 591 for 737s this year.
Quoting planesntrains (Reply 217):
LOL 600 orders by June is now a failing grade.   Poor Boeing...
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 218):
all things being considered, I still believe Boeing has got to sharpen their marketing approach to the airlines, like seriously go through a very extensive evaluation of their skills on making their products more attractive as it is. Way too complacent thus the lagging, and undeniable trailing on the sales..... the B737 has always been their bread and butter, it is not suppose to be a surprise. What we can call significant are the unexpected patronage of the other product lines.

Sigh.

Well, it was a successful airshow for Boeing IMO. The 787-10 launch with 102 orders - if nothing else happpened - is very positive news. 205 firmed 737 sales is certainly nothing to sneeze at, either. Some 777's thrown in, though like the A330 it is in it's twilight years of big orders it would seem. The 747-8i order by KE was a pleasant surprise, if likely not one to be repeated much in the future. All in all, not bad.

The 777X launch will happen at some point, though I'm not sure if it will be this year. That will give a boost as well.

So, 737NG/737MAX/787-10/potential 777X/normal trickle of new 787-8/-9 orders. That seems like a pretty well-rounded flow to build on, if not the most exciting line-up ever.

-Dave
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dc1030cf
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:39 pm

airlinebuilder, please explain what you are talking about in your reply#218 It doesn't make any sense. Thank you.
 
dk1967
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 218):
What we can call significant are the unexpected patronage of the other product lines.

Unfilled orders thru May 2013 excluding 737:

- 747 (55). You might have a point here for passenger variant; currently dominates global freighter market in its class.
- 767 (59). A330 beat up the passenger variant. Holding its own in the global freighter, and tanker markets.
- 777 (347) 300ER and F variants currently dominate global passenger, and freighter markets in their class.
- 787 (833) That's a sh#t ton. Doesn't include the 100 or so -10s they picked up at the PAS this week.

The A350 looks to be an excellent aircraft, and has already sold a sh#t ton, including a bunch this week. The future of Boeing's "other product lines" needs continuous improvement in order to stay competitive with Airbus' offerings. If you are saying Boeing needs to stop screwing up development, I agree. That being said, by the looks of things their marketing group appears to know how to sell airframes.
 
NYC777
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting dk1967 (Reply 224):
- 747 (55). You might have a point here for passenger variant; currently dominates global freighter market in its class

No one is really looking to buy a whole lot of 450+ passenger aircraft. The A380 is exactly flying (pun intended) off the shelves.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
747-600X
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:03 pm

So, is there anywhere to get a summary of the total orders? Flightglobal has some nice infographics which really aren't very informative. Like, a list... Ryanair 175 737-800, Qatar 9 777-300ER, and so on?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 226):
So, is there anywhere to get a summary of the total orders?

http://www.pdxlight.com/pas13.htm
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bikerthai
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:07 pm

This is really curious.

Looking into the near future, Boeing will have 4 major product models:

737 Max
787
777 X
747-8

Airbus will have 3:

A320 Neo
A350
A380

Seems to me Airbus will have a bigger gap (in term of capacity) between their models than Boeing.
Seem to me both sides will and already are "sharpen their pencil".

Of course we don't really use pencils any more in Engineering. May be we should upgrade our computers!!!! with triple side screen monitors . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
astuteman
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting dk1967 (Reply 224):
That's a sh#t ton. Doesn't include the 100 or so -10s they picked up at the PAS this week

Rightly so, as they are currently still commitments, rather than firm orders. It won't be long though  

Rgds
 
NYC777
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 229):
Rightly so, as they are currently still commitments, rather than firm orders. It won't be long though

Actually UA and SQ's -10 orders are firm. That's 40 right there (net).
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neutrino
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 230):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 229):
Rightly so, as they are currently still commitments, rather than firm orders. It won't be long though

Actually UA and SQ's -10 orders are firm. That's 40 right there (net).

50, including UA's 10 conversions from -9.
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cmf
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:42 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 210):
Historically, this was true. Nowadays, a UK billion = US billion (ditto with trillion). I'm not aware of anyone (Government or banks) that use the old billion (million x million) definition.

Very true. But this is another step up from NAV20's theory.
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astuteman
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 230):
Actually UA and SQ's -10 orders are firm. That's 40 right there (net).

Didn't spot that. My bad.

told you it wouldn't be long  

Rgds
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:53 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 228):
Looking into the near future, Boeing will have 4 major product models:737 Max787777 X747-8Airbus will have 3:A320 NeoA350A380

I assume A330 will continue to sell better than 748's. So Airbus has four too.
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BoeingVista
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 222):
Well, it was a successful airshow for Boeing IMO. The 787-10 launch with 102 orders

But how many of these were new orders and not just conversions, 10 of UA's orders were conversions as were all of BA's 10, so how many new orders did the 10 get?
BV
 
tortugamon
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:13 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 235):
But how many of these were new orders and not just conversions

I believe that 10 of UA's 20 were conversions and the rest of the 102 were new orders so 92. You mention BA. BA exercised 18 options a couple months ago but we do not know if it was those options that they used or if it was a new order.

I suspect it was the options but as those options have not yet become firm, and as it was extremely likely that it was the -10 launch that spurred the options conversion anyway, its safe to include those 12 in the 92/102 figure IMO. I would think any manufacturer would be happy with conversions because they bring in higher revenue and gives them flexibility with their production plan and timeline.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

tortugamon
 
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Stitch
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:39 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 235):
But how many of these were new orders and not just conversions, 10 of UA's orders were conversions as were all of BA's 10, so how many new orders did the 10 get?

BA converted 18 options into firm orders last month and assigned 10 of them to the 787-10 at PAS. So they have 8 new orders which they need to assign a model for.

All of SQ's frames were a new order, as were GECAS' and ALCs.

So 92 of the 102 were new orders.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 235):
But how many of these were new orders and not just conversions, 10 of UA's orders were conversions as were all of BA's 10, so how many new orders did the 10 get?

Ok, even though it's been pretty well noted that most were new orders, let's just say 75 were new orders. Is launching a new derivative widebody model with 75 orders out of the gate NOT a successful addition to an airshow???

-Dave
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astuteman
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:11 am

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 238):
Ok, even though it's been pretty well noted that most were new orders, let's just say 75 were new orders. Is launching a new derivative widebody model with 75 orders out of the gate NOT a successful addition to an airshow???

Of course it is   

Rgds
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:54 am

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 238):
Ok, even though it's been pretty well noted that most were new orders, let's just say 75 were new orders. Is launching a new derivative widebody model with 75 orders out of the gate NOT a successful addition to an airshow???

-Dave

I'm looking for the actual numbers, nobody seems clear on which were new orders and which were conversions.
BV
 
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Stitch
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 240):
I'm looking for the actual numbers, nobody seems clear on which were new orders and which were conversions.

United converted 10 firm orders from the 787-9 to the 787-10 and placed 10 new orders (recorded by Boeing on their 19 June 2013 O&D Update).

Singapore Airlines placed 30 new orders (recorded by Boeing on their 19 June 2013 O&D Update).

British Airways placed 12 new orders (they have 6 remaining new orders without a model yet chosen).

Air Lease Corporation placed 30 new orders.

GECAS placed 10 new orders.

So that is 92 new orders and 10 conversions from the 787-9.

[Edited 2013-06-21 00:02:11]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 228):
Looking into the near future, Boeing will have 4 major product models:

Don't forget the 767, it hold a backlog for almost another 10 years of production.
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scbriml
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:37 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 237):
BA converted 18 options into firm orders last month

Not according to Boeing.   

Quoting Stitch (Reply 241):
British Airways placed 12 new orders (they have 6 remaining new orders without a model yet chosen).

BA's top-up of 18 is not yet firm - niether is their 'order' for 18 A350s.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 241):
United converted 10 firm orders from the 787-9 to the 787-10 and placed 10 new orders (recorded by Boeing on their 19 June 2013 O&D Update).

Singapore Airlines placed 30 new orders (recorded by Boeing on their 19 June 2013 O&D Update).

British Airways placed 12 new orders (they have 6 remaining new orders without a model yet chosen).

Air Lease Corporation placed 30 new orders.

GECAS placed 10 new orders.

So that is 92 new orders and 10 conversions from the 787-9.

I feel like this has been posted multiple times over the past few days. Hopefully this ends the questioning. Thanks Stitch.

-Dave
-Dave


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BoeingVista
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 241):
British Airways placed 12 new orders (they have 6 remaining new orders without a model yet chosen).

But isn't this a conversion of 18 options that happened in April hence already captured on the Boeing spreadsheet that has now been switched to 12 787-10. 6 TBD so not a 'new' order.
BV
 
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scbriml
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:59 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 245):
But isn't this a conversion of 18 options that happened in April hence already captured on the Boeing spreadsheet that has now been switched to 12 787-10. 6 TBD so not a 'new' order.

BA is not yet listed on Boeing's 2013 order page, so at this point in time, none of the 18 options they said they would exercise has been made firm.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:08 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 245):
But isn't this a conversion of 18 options that happened in April hence already captured on the Boeing spreadsheet that has now been switched to 12 787-10. 6 TBD so not a 'new' order.

Were they defined as a particular model at that time and then switched now, or was it left open to decide later? If the latter, then I would say it was just getting the ducks in a row for the launch at Paris.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:12 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 246):
BA is not yet listed on Boeing's 2013 order page, so at this point in time, none of the 18 options they said they would exercise has been made firm.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...x.cfm

Ok, fair enough.
BV
 
tortugamon
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RE: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 248):

See reply #236 where all of this was mentioned. Not sure why any of this matters though.

tortugamon

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