justloveplanes
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):
Also, the 787 team is not exactly blowing people's socks off in terms of speed nor quality. There is clearly a cost savings however.

As a former resident of SC and a great fan of the state..... Them's fighting words!!!   

Seriously, however, how is the dispatch reliability of SC birds vs Everett? Is there a correlation? I know several AI birds came out of SC and AI is pushing 98+ dispatch reliability so far.
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
As a former resident of SC and a great fan of the state..... Them's fighting words!

I am a fan too. Kiawah is a great place and Charleston is a solid town. No disrespect intended  .

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
Seriously, however, how is the dispatch reliability of SC birds vs Everett? Is there a correlation?

Much of what we know is speculative and rumors but there is some evidence. In terms of quality we have the following: the average aircraft out of Everett takes more test flights before a customer accepts it than those in Everett. The data is found here:
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/p...gle=true&gid=2&output=html

Second, in terms of efficiency/speed, the ramp up has been slower than expected. They had planned on three by the end of 2013 but won't reach that mark until some point next year:
http://www.boeing.co.in/Featured-Con...First-South-Carolina-built-787-Dre

We have seen other things that don't fit in as well, with customers delaying receipt in Charleston and Everett pushing through an out of the order aircraft for a customer and delivering it despite an identical aircraft being nearly ready in Charleston. I think there is other evidence out there as well.

For example, all SC employees were called to a meeting with their chief specifically to talk about quality:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/flyingless...n-a-message-about-quality-control/

Anyway, its all semi-circumstantial but I think it points in one direction. But let us not forget that they broke ground on this facility in November 2009 and delivered its first aircraft in October 2012. That is a quick turnaround with a workforce that is not the most sophisticated aerospace professionals. They can't expect to Charleston to match Everett so quickly. Everett has been doing a very good job for decades.

tortugamon
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 45):
But let us not forget that they broke ground on this facility in November 2009 and delivered its first aircraft in October 2012. That is a quick turnaround with a workforce that is not the most sophisticated aerospace professionals. They can't expect to Charleston to match Everett so quickly. Everett has been doing a very good job for decades.

I think this is crucial for critics of Charleston to remember. i have every confidence that the Charleston workforce, or any other workforce, can learn to build airliners just as well as the Everett workforce, but it will take time.
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:22 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 45):
For example, all SC employees were called to a meeting with their chief specifically to talk about quality:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/flyingless...trol/

Interesting articles. However to muddy the waters further....

from the article above

"Air India has eight 787s. Most or all of which were put together in South Carolina while the Dreamliners delivered to Norwegian, LOT Polish and United, were assembled in Everett, Washington."

So a sort of inconsistency. CHS is slow, but statistically, they (AI Birds) are above average whereas two of the worst cases for dispatch, United and Norweigian, are from Everett.

United and Norweigian could have other factors, such as build number (Though AI did have some earlier builds than United) and operations mentality (Maybe AI is ignoring all the software nuisance alarms and UA isn't).
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 47):
So a sort of inconsistency. CHS is slow, but statistically, they (AI Birds) are above average whereas two of the worst cases for dispatch, United and Norweigian, are from Everett.

And ANA has a 99% rate and all of those aircraft come from Everett...we really can go back and forth and the reality of the situation is that we do not know based on dispatch reliability. As almost 9 out 10 787s delivered come from Everett, Charleston's sample size is too small.

However, when the same airline picks up an aircraft at each location, it takes longer for them to take delivery in Charleston than it does in Everett. That tells me they are still working through issues.

Charleston just delivered an aircraft to UA that entered final assembly more than 6 months ago and that was the quickest they have ever accomplished that. Everett does it in less than half the time.

Again, Everett has been at this a lot longer. Differences are expected.

tortugamon
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:50 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):Any idea why CHS is missing in their list of favorite locations?
WSJ is reporting that CHS is indeed being considered and was being considered before the union vote.

Quote:"Mr. Alder declined to identify the number or locations of other sites being considered, but the company's nonunion South Carolina facility—which already builds 787 Dreamliners—was being evaluated before the machinists' vote Wednesday, according to industry officials."
Last edited by KarelXWB on Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed front size
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:06 am

What are the chances of seeing a "Douglas" built 777-NG from LGB ?
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:31 am

I am of the opinion that if we do see a full 777X FAL outside of PAE, it will be a second FAL to PAE (as the CHS 787 line is ti PAE).

If Boeing really does sell a couple hundred 777Xs this month and the plane goes on to be a major hit with sales the near side of four figures by EIS, then I do not see how Boeing would be able to build it in a new facility with a new workforce and meet the initial production rate of 100+ a year.

Two FALs would give Boeing redundancy and would allow PAE to do the initial heavy lifting (as they did with the 787) while CHS gets up to speed. Boeing can then ramp down PAE in concert until CHS is taking the entire load down the road (as they likely will the 787).
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
If Boeing really does sell a couple hundred 777Xs this month and the plane goes on to be a major hit with sales the near side of four figures by EIS

I have a hard time getting my head around those kind of figures. With the 787 just now getting to 1,000 I have to imagine 400 orders for the 777x by EIS is a resounding success.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
I do not see how Boeing would be able to build it in a new facility with a new workforce and meet the initial production rate of 100+ a year.

The 350 seat market is now being satisfied with ~80/year (77W) and once A351 comes on line in 2017 and 777-8 ~2021 that will be 3 different models in this space. I am not sure if I see 777x production at 100+/year in the begininng. Maybe combined with the current 777 but not just the 777x.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
Two FALs would give Boeing redundancy

I love the idea because it would allow Boeing to negotiate with both sides without a gun to their heads but double lines can be very expensive. In fact it would probably mean 3 FALs as the current 777 line will need to stay open until around 2025 for the freighter as well.

I wonder if the automation that Boeing is looking to include involves a lot of expensive machinery that would double those costs or if those machines could be used in one upstream location and final assembly remains less intensive like the 787.

tortugamon
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 52):
I wonder if the automation that Boeing is looking to include involves a lot of expensive machinery that would double those costs or if those machines could be used in one upstream location and final assembly remains less intensive like the 787.

On the flip side, extensive automation for final assembly would reduce the need for assembly skilled workers and could help CHS hit higher delivery targets earlier...
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
On the flip side, extensive automation for final assembly would reduce the need for assembly skilled workers and could help CHS hit higher delivery targets earlier...

Could this introduce welding instead of riveting . That would sure help the weight!
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:42 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 48):
Charleston just delivered an aircraft to UA that entered final assembly more than 6 months ago

b.t.w. was it not the idea once to do pass the FAL in only some days?
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
In other news, The Seattle Times reports that “two sources close to Boeing” state that if Boeing chooses to not build the 777X in Washington, the current favorites are Long Beach, Salt Lake City or Huntsville.

So a bit more why Boeing is considering these three sites for a/the 777X FAL and not CHS:

Long Beach - the C-17 FAL will become available for conversion to the 777X in 2015 and while the workforce is not trained on commercial work, the C-17 is a large airplane like the 777X. LGB is a union site, but they are represented by the UAW, not the IAM, and are viewed as being far more reasonable to negotiate with.

Salt Lake City - Evidently Utah is a major CFRP center for excellence so they are well-regarded when it comes to build the CFRP wings of the 777X. Boeing executives flew to SLC today to meet with Utah Gov. Gary Herbert.
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:41 am

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 47):
Interesting articles. However to muddy the waters further....

from the article above

"Air India has eight 787s. Most or all of which were put together in South Carolina while the Dreamliners delivered to Norwegian, LOT Polish and United, were assembled in Everett, Washington."

So a sort of inconsistency. CHS is slow, but statistically, they (AI Birds) are above average whereas two of the worst cases for dispatch, United and Norweigian, are from Everett.

United and Norweigian could have other factors, such as build number (Though AI did have some earlier builds than United) and operations mentality (Maybe AI is ignoring all the software nuisance alarms and UA isn't).

Qatar's first CHS 787 also had quality issues, the airframe went back inside the assembly hall after roll out to get fixed.
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:57 am

Officials in Utah confirm Boeing leaders reached out this afternoon to Gov. Gary Herbert about Utah's interest in building 777X.

http://twitter.com/DanLewisNews/status/401133086869426176
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 35):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with all the subcontract issue with the 787, the only major issue with Japan was the battery issue. I have not heard of any production issue with the Heavies.

bt

I didn't say I blamed "Japan Inc." for the 787's growing pains, although the battery manufacturers certainly were, at least, partially responsible. My concern is handing over vital wing design technology to a potential future competitor.
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
I am of the opinion that if we do see a full 777X FAL outside of PAE, it will be a second FAL to PAE (as the CHS 787 line is ti PAE).

I second that opinion.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 52):
I wonder if the automation that Boeing is looking to include involves a lot of expensive machinery that would double those costs

Not necessarily. Depending on the production rate, even if they have fuselage assy at one place, they may still need two machine to make rate.

For final assy, or even barrel assy, you don't really need "big" machines You may need a big jig/fixture with a small robot that run along a gantry to fasten the joint. These big fixtures and small robots are a lot cheaper than those fiber placement machines for the 787 barrels

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 54):

Could this introduce welding instead of riveting . That would sure help the weight!

Welding of aluminum is tricky and limit you to specific aluminum alloys and specialty skills. Weld joints require additional safety factors in the design/analysis. If you were to weld a fuselage, you might as well make the whole thing composite and cure it like the 787.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 56):
Long Beach - the C-17 FAL will become available for conversion to the 777X in 2015 and while the workforce is not trained on commercial work, the C-17 is a large airplane like the 777X. LGB is a union site, but they are represented by the UAW, not the IAM, and are viewed as being far more reasonable to negotiate with.

Good info to know.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 56):

Salt Lake City - Evidently Utah is a major CFRP center for excellence so they are well-regarded when it comes to build the CFRP wings of the 777X. Boeing executives flew to SLC today to meet with Utah Gov. Gary Herbert.

Then rail it to Long Beach for FA   In Utah, you don't have to worry about volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes. There's plenty of sunshine for solar lighting of the factory and locust plague shouldn't impact production

 
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 59):
My concern is handing over vital wing design technology to a potential future competitor.

The future competitor is China, not Japan. Japan had plenty of time to establish their own aircraft production but found it is more fruitfull to be a major supplier. Besides, if they do get the 777x wing and buy some P-8A in return, that would be all good   .

Note that the crown jewels in the wing design are the wing loft and composite fabrication techniques. Both are hard to duplicate and reverse engineer without patent and proprietary infringements. China may not have problems stealing these type of intellectual assets, But Japan would less likely flaunt these types of international laws.

bt
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 60):
Welding of aluminum is tricky and limit you to specific aluminum alloys and specialty skills. Weld joints require additional safety factors in the design/analysis. If you were to weld a fuselage, you might as well make the whole thing composite and cure it like the 787.

I wonder if composite is an option if they keep the same dimensions as the existing 777?
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 60):
Welding of aluminum is tricky and limit you to specific aluminum alloys and specialty skills. Weld joints require additional safety factors in the design/analysis. If you were to weld a fuselage, you might as well make the whole thing composite and cure it like the 787.

what methodology is Airbus using on the A350 series? Riveting CRFP panels to aluminium frames?
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 62):
what methodology is Airbus using on the A350 series? Riveting CRFP panels to aluminium frames?

When assembling composite structures, hi-loc bolts are typically used.

Rivets (specially aluminum rivets) are not recommended because of galvanic corrosion issue.

Also, squeezing a rivet is not recommended on the epoxy resin.

bt
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 59):
My concern is handing over vital wing design technology to a potential future competitor.

Well if you're getting a billion $+ in free "subsidy" for the development of your new product so you don't have to spend it out of your own bank account and one of the the contractors involved has more experience than you do making single piece composite wing boxes, maybe it wasn't such a bad idea after all!
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 48):
Everett does it in less than half the time

On the flip side, they have already buillt like 80. Where is Charleston right now 14 or so?

How long did Everet take to build their no. 14? Or maybe a better picture would be their no 25, to take out the terrible teens effect . . .

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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 48):
Again, Everett has been at this a lot longer. Differences are expected.

Isn't the CHS line also supposed to have a lower monthly rate than PAE anyway?

PAE = 8-10 frames per month
CHS = 4-6 frames per month
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 55):
b.t.w. was it not the idea once to do pass the FAL in only some days?

I did not say it took 6 months to go through the FAL. Next month the 787 lines will be rolling out a new aircraft every 3 calendar days; closer to 2 if you take just working days. Everett final assembly is approximately 30 working days assembly loading to roll out. I believe the original speculation that it would take about three days for final assembly but did not include wing and tail integration.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 65):
How long did Everet take to build their no. 14? Or maybe a better picture would be their no 25, to take out the terrible teens effect . . .

While final assembly certainly had its lessons learned, much of the improvements in 787 production has come from suppliers improving quality and completing more work before sending the components to Boeing. This improvement helps both locations equally.

tortugamon
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 67):
While final assembly certainly had its lessons learned, much of the improvements in 787 production has come from suppliers improving quality and completing more work before sending the components to Boeing. This improvement helps both locations equally.

CHS also had to rework the pre-LN66 birds on the assembly line while PAE had the EMC to perform this job.
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 pm

> Boeing recently approved another thrust increase in the jet's new GE engines to 105,000 pounds, up from 102,000 pounds - a direct request from Emirates, said two people familiar with the jet's design.
> Lufthansa bought 777X early to lock in guarantees & limit the influence of Gulf carriers on the design.

Google "WSJ Boeing's New 777X Is Tailored to Please Mideast Carriers" to read the article.
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 67):
While final assembly certainly had its lessons learned, much of the improvements in 787 production has come from suppliers improving quality and completing more work before sending the components to Boeing. This improvement helps both locations equally

Sure, fully agree. I certainly hope that lessons learned in Everett will roll over to Charleston as well (and vice versa).
But that still ignores that Everett has a much longer learning curve with many more frames produced. Meaning that the initial statement is somewhat dubious, in the sense that it is not a very useful comparison.

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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 70):

Which statement is dubious? That Charleston is not exactly blowing people's socks off?

tortugamon
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:35 am

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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:08 pm

Boeing targets 2020 first delivery for 777X -exec:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...dubai-boeing-idUSL5N0J103520131116
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):
Which statement is dubious? That Charleston is not exactly blowing people's socks off

Probably poor choice of words from me.
I felt your initial statement was sort of suggesting that Everett folks were better than Charleston folks. I just wanted to point out that comparing a crew that had already assembled 75+ frames, to a crew that just finished assembling their fourteenth, was not completely fair.

However you're right, ignoring that factor, there is nothing dubious about the statement. Sorry for my poor choice of words.

Still, the question remains, how did the Everett line performon on their say Nr.25 (compared to Charleston's Nr.14) . . . ?

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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:26 am

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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:38 am

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/401988118342926336

"The Boeing 777 is now the best selling wide-body jetliner in aviation history. The 747 now abdicates her throne."

About time! 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:41 am

Tim Clark: 777-9X will have 16-17% fuel burn adv over 777-300ER. Arriving in 2020, followed by 8X 18 months later.

http://twitter.com/AvWeekFlottau/status/401992885685739520
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:23 am

A 5th door is visible on this Etihad 777X render:

http://s24.postimg.org/3y8rve1gl/Etihad_order_K66007.jpg
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:32 am

An art impression of the 777X cockpit:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZQ2JrLCQAA7zb3.jpg:large

Folding wings, bigger windows, new interior and big flight deck changes are confirmed.

http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/402005806729547776
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:36 am

Here a couple of interesting details on the the 777X wing seen on their high resolution renderings:

Folding wingtips, note the zig-zag folding line:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/777Xwinttipfolded_zps4cd47727.jpg


Outer wingtip, once again that folding line and clean outer aileron:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/777Xouterwingdetails_zps51dba910.jpg


And an unusually busy oouter flap, with 2.5 supports and some small thing on the outer end, more complicated then the 787, streamwise deployment?? :

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/777Xinnerwingdetails_zps2248b51a.jpg
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 80):
Here a couple of interesting details on the the 777X wing seen on their high resolution renderings:

Hi ferpe, where did you find that first picture?
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KarelXWB
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:56 am

Never mind, I found them.

http://s21.postimg.org/g26kvwy13/777_X_6.jpg

http://s23.postimg.org/pq16wv30b/777_X_4.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2eai7eo.jpg

Source (including a nice video):
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2013-11-...rd-Breaking-Orders-and-Commitments

[Edited 2013-11-17 01:58:41]
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:02 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 80):
And an unusually busy oouter flap, with 2.5 supports and some small thing on the outer end, more complicated then the 787, streamwise deployment?? :

This was exactly what I found interesting.

The 787 outboard flap is really long and thin, and with only 2 major supports there's a lot of torsion and bending without much section to deal with it, so this could be related to that. The 787 flap does have a small track in the middle which engages only when stowed. The middle fairing looks like it's deep enough to contain a hinge, possibly without an actuator to go with it.

The blister at the outboard end could be to envelope an aux track support, again since there's not much space to play with. The 787 needs small blisters in the fixed trailing edge to accommodate the aux tracks.

Also interesting is the blister about a third of the way along the inboard flap. Not deep enough for a hinge, but there should be enough section to keep an aux support inside the wing.
 
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:06 am

Looks great in the air but the 787 type pylon/wing geometry combined with the tall 777 gear is giving a absurdly(visually) high engine/ground clearance.

[Edited 2013-11-17 02:07:17]
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:21 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
CXB77L
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 75):
New renders of the 777X jets:

Thanks for posting. They both look gorgeous  
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 76):
"The Boeing 777 is now the best selling wide-body jetliner in aviation history. The 747 now abdicates her throne."

Indeed, this is cause for celebration   

It's always been a matter of time before the 777 overtook the 747 as the most sold widebody ever built. Congratulations to all involved.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 77):
Tim Clark: 777-9X will have 16-17% fuel burn adv over 777-300ER. Arriving in 2020, followed by 8X 18 months later.

Hmm, I wonder if he was referring to trip costs or per seat costs. The initial predictions were for a 21% fuel burn per seat reduction over the 777-300ER and 16% cash operating cost per seat. Given that the increase in seat capacity from a 365 seat 777-300ER to a 407 seat 777-9X is only 12%, the -9X looks to have a lower fuel burn per trip than the -300ER (thanks in no small part to its new wings and engines, no doubt). If he is referring to fuel burn per seat, I wonder which of EK's configurations of the 777-300ER he was referring to.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 79):
An art impression of the 777X cockpit:

Interesting although not at all surprising, that it shares a lot with the 787. Although from the rendering, it's not clear whether the 777X will have HUDs like the 787.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:23 pm

List prices have been revealed:

> The larger 777X-9, due 2020, will cost $377.2 million
> The smaller 777X-8 debuting 18 months later is priced at $349.8 million

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 86):
The initial predictions were for a 21% fuel burn per seat reduction over the 777-300ER and 16% cash operating cost per seat.

Yes, but the 21% figure only applies for 9-abreast 77W customers going to 10-abreast in the 777X. EK is already an 10-abreast customer.
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KarelXWB
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:00 pm

Table with some specs:

http://s18.postimg.org/mcve9elwp/Screenshot_from_2013_11_17_16_59_40.png
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JAAlbert
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:36 pm

The video on Boeing's website says the cabin will be "almost" a half meter wider! That's huge! I thought Boeing could only get an extra 4" of cabin space out of the current design. How will Boeing manage this much extra space?

The bigger windows - 787 windows or a different size? No mention whether they will have the electronic dimming feature. Some have mentioned that the electronic feature means the interior windows get very hot when sitting on the ground. Perhaps its a feature that won't make it onto new planes?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 89):
The video on Boeing's website says the cabin will be "almost" a half meter wider! That's huge! I thought Boeing could only get an extra 4" of cabin space out of the current design. How will Boeing manage this much extra space?

Marketing, optical illusion, a half meter is physically not possible.
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mjoelnir
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:44 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 89):
The video on Boeing's website says the cabin will be "almost" a half meter wider! That's huge! I thought Boeing could only get an extra 4" of cabin space out of the current design. How will Boeing manage this much extra space?

Perhaps they can not think in meters, or we have to ask half a meter wider than what?
It is not half a meter wider than the B-777, than you would sit outside the cabin, it is no half a meter wider than the A350 cabin....
 
JAAlbert
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
Marketing, optical illusion, a half meter is physically not possible.

Why would Boeing publishing such a statistic in its prepared material that is obviously false? I can see an official misquoting such a statistic off the cuff, but in a video they've obviously spent some time creating? I realize the airline manufacturers engage in some puffery when touting their newest and greatest, but a half meter is significant. It doesn't make sense.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 91):

Perhaps they can not think in meters, or we have to ask half a meter wider than what?

Now this makes more sense -- just change what you're comparing the new 777X cabin to, without telling anyone you've changed the comparison, and you get your extra "almost" half meter. Also left undefined is the "almost" - I wonder how liberally they define this term?
 
ferpe
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RE: 777X Updated Information And Developments Part 6

Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:21 pm

Based on the latest info from the launch today and the readjustment of the A350-1000 range I have updated my model. Here is how the most interesting frames discussed today pan out over a 6000nm leg. I give it as block fuel burned, then everyone can divide with whatever passenger number which he favors, 18 inch seats or not  Wow! . I give you l fuel burned per 100km per m2 cabin space as a reference:


...................Block fuel t.........l/100km/m2
787-10...........67.9..................2.65
350-900.........66.2..................2.64
350-1000........75.5..................2.65
777-8.............79.5..................2.80
777-9.............84.4..................2.63
777-300ER......94.1..................3.12


The fuel burn for the 777-9 per m2 is 25.8% lower then the 777-300ER, that includes the gain in m2 the 777X does because of the additional 4'' of cabin width, the gain per seat would have to depend on the seating configuration. Given the very similar fuel burns one can wonder about the decision of Ethiad to take the 787-10 and the 359 and 359R. I think it will have to come down to the revenue side difference, the 787-10 has 4 more LD3 positions and 7 tons higher max payload capability, on shorter flights you can earn more revenue with the 787-10, once you pass 8-10 hour legs the 359 is taking more payload and the 787-10 does not work any more.

[Edited 2013-11-17 10:40:55]
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