KE Orders 747-8I

qf74 · Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:51 pm

I saw this last night and I'm surprised no one has posted yet. Apologies if this is a double post.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2436407

connies4ever · Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:56 pm

Hadn't KE previously ordered 5 748I's ? If they did or not, sales of this model have been poor, as the 77W can do most of the missions and of course there's the A388 if you need that much capacity.

IslandRob · Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:10 pm

The new KE 748i order has been discussed at length here: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders
Regards. -ir

[Edited 2013-06-19 16:10:57]

[Edited 2013-06-19 16:12:01]

[Edited 2013-06-19 16:25:04]

yyz717 · Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Hadn't KE previously ordered 5 748I's ?

Correct. Ordered in 2009. These are due for delivery in 2014/2015.

The latest order is for an additional 5 748I's, so 10 in total. A major boost to the 748I program.

EddieDude · Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:23 am

When will the first 748i from the first batch be delivered to KE and when/where to will it start flying?

Stitch · Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
When will the first 748i from the first batch be delivered to KE and when/where to will it start flying?

I believe 2014 per posts in Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders (by Moderators Jun 16 2013 in Civil Aviation)

PC12Fan · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):

True that the order book isn't what Boeing wanted. But the passenger difference is almost +/- 100 pax either way between the 77W and the A388. There is a market for this aircraft.

hoons90 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:15 am

Good candidates IMO would be the 2nd daily JFK flight (KE085), plus LHR. Maybe CDG and FRA during low season when the A380 isn't flying there.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it on KE011/LAX with KE017/LAX maintaining the A380 year round.

lightsaber · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 am

I'm surprised the order is that small. I would think KE would have enough demand to fill out a larger subfleet and right now Boeing would 'cut a deal.' However, I'll take what we can get.

Sigh... I think there is more of a market for the 748i

Quoting qf74 (Thread starter):

I saw this last night and I'm surprised no one has posted yet. Apologies if this is a double post.

Thank you. I missed the order.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
The latest order is for an additional 5 748I's, so 10 in total. A major boost to the 748I program.

As much as I'm a VLA fan, I cannot call an order of 5 a 'major boost.' If it had been for a full year of production... Ok, that would be a major boost.

Here is to more 748i orders.

Lightsaber

zeke · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:55 am

KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.

hOMSaR · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:13 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.

Interesting. I didn't know until now that KE owned an aerospace research/manufacturing division. I guess that wouldn't be allowed in the US, but other parts of the world don't necessarily have the same restrictions.

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 2):
The new KE 748i order has been discussed at length here: Paris Air Show 2013 - Boeing Orders

That's the problem with those big catch-all threads. Significant news items get missed/overlooked.

I often wonder, if a.net had existed in 1903, if the Wright Brothers' flight would have been mentioned on post #93 of "Ohio Bicycle Manufacturers Thread #40" or something like that.

IslandRob · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:26 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.

Fantastic! Let's hope they support their own manufacturing even more vigorously in the near future.

The skies are a more beautiful place with the 748i flying!

In related news, another parade hit by minor rain storm. -ir

oldeuropean · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:56 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
The latest order is for an additional 5 748I's, so 10 in total. A major boost to the 748I program.

Are you kidding? Because, that's funny!

[Edited 2013-06-19 22:59:16]

VC10er · Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:55 pm

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth! Although it's only 5 (but a total of 10) is a good thing. I haven't flown her yet, but I will!

I have seen a few at FRA and she is a beauty. While unlikely, it may get some more orders before Boeing stops production altogether. My DREAM is for United to take 12 one day. It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747. They have been a standard (and icon) of United for 40 years.

Hats off to Korean Air!

EPA001 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I have seen a few at FRA and she is a beauty.

I have seen a couple of them at FRA too. It is a very elegant and impressive plane to see. And especially in the colours of KE, they will look fabulous.

But they will be a relatively rare sight to see.

Rara · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I have seen a few at FRA and she is a beauty. While unlikely, it may get some more orders before Boeing stops production altogether. My DREAM is for United to take 12 one day. It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747. They have been a standard (and icon) of United for 40 years.

I hope so too.

Otherwise there will be a sad day on which America stops flying VLA's at some point.

na · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth! Although it's only 5 (but a total of 10) is a good thing. I haven't flown her yet, but I will!

Go for it, it makes you forget everything except the A380, I can tell you, particularly in F and J-class. Its a shame what airlines are doing to their passengers by ignoring it.

neutronstar73 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.

It wouldn't possibly be that they see a use for the aircraft in their fleet. Couldn't possibly be that reason.

Instead, they make a multi-million dollar order to support their aerostructures division to build:

"The parts to be made in Korea include the jet's raked wingtips, its wingtip extensions and the flap track fairing."

Could it be perhaps, they can't fill an A380 on some routes and they want the 748i for those routes, and they 77W wouldn't really work for them?

Yep, they only bought it to build wingtips, wingtip extensions and the flap track fairing, because that's exactly like building entire engines like GE does (and the associated profit center of engine spares and parts and maintenance)

airlinebuilder · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:53 pm

unfortunately, the order for 5 additional B748i is not so significant, we cannot deny the aircraft has become way less than a shadow in the industry, airlines are either going for the big twins of either A or B and must they settle for quads its the A380 no less.

It is like reviving a hopeless patient on a death bed with faint increments of light on its vital sign but with a conclusive demise.....

neutrino · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747. They have been a standard (and icon) of United for 40 years.

Ditto for SQ who took delivery of her first Jumbo on July 31 1973 and retired the last on April 6 last year.
Though the cargo arm will still be operating the Queen for quite a long while more, passengers have come to accept the lamented end of an iconic era.
To have loved and lost is better than not to have loved at all.

zeke · Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 17):
Couldn't possibly be that reason.

On Leeham.net they indicated the KE 747-8i deal way originally part of a compensation deal for the delays with the 787 and 747-8F

Devilfish · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 12):
Are you kidding? Because, that's funny!

When there's only a handful of a variant flying (and little else on the horizon) 5 frames on top an earlier five is indeed a 'major boost'

.

Quoting Rara (Reply 15):
Otherwise there will be a sad day on which America stops flying VLA's at some point.

There will still be the AF1 replacements which may yet push that day two-score years hence.

Quoting zeke (Reply 20):
On Leeham.net they indicated the KE 747-8i deal way originally part of a compensation deal for the delays with the 787 and 747-8F

Speak of adding insult to injury

.

sankaps · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting HOmSaR (Reply 10):
Quoting zeke (Reply 9):KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.
Interesting. I didn't know until now that KE owned an aerospace research/manufacturing division. I guess that wouldn't be allowed in the US, but other parts of the world don't necessarily have the same restrictions.

Zeke -- When did KE get into aircraft or aerostructures manufacturing?

HOmSaR - what wouldn't be allowed in the US?

Aesma · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:26 pm

A boost would be an order by a new operator, not an exercising of options at a certainly more than 50% discount. It's still better than nothing I give you that.

When EK orders 30 more A380s nobody talks about a boost let alone a major one, I wonder why.

hoons90 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:32 pm

If you think about it, 20 VLAs (10 A380s, 10 748is) are more than enough to cover KE's core international markets for a long time.

Here's a list of KE's intercontinental destinations that receive at least a daily service on 77W sized aircraft or larger:

LAX*, ORD, JFK*, ATL*, HNL, YVR^, FRA*, CDG, LHR, SYD^, AKL^

* = A380 city
^ = seasonal upgauge

20 VLAs should be more than enough to cover those markets, and HNL, YVR, SYD and AKL may not even be suitable candidates for those planes due to the dearth of premium demand.

Don't forget that KE will have a fleet of 16 77Ws that can adequately cover the markets not listed above. That's why I don't think KE will order any more VLAs at this point. Their rival Asiana also has 6 A380s on order. That should be more than enough for a country of 50 million.

airlinebuilder · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:03 pm

whatever happened to the article about Philippine Airlines "Dropping Airbus for Boeing" on philippineairspace.blogspot.com wherein the airline was seriously considering the B748i when PAL indulge literally 70% of its orders to Airbus....... what is happening to Boeing?

bikerthai · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 22):

Zeke -- When did KE get into aircraft or aerostructures manufacturing?

Find the information here:

http://techcenter.koreanair.com/Aero...ngEN/AboutCompany/CeoGreeting.aspx

They would probably be heavily involved in any Korean Fighter Deal.

bt

[Edited 2013-06-20 09:51:35]

Ronaldo747 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747.

And replacing them with A350. I'm still think this is just a joke. It's simply insane.

ER757 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
My DREAM is for United to take 12 one day. It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747. They have been a standard (and icon) of United for 40 years.

I feel the same way - UA without the 747 just seems wrong. It's going to be reality though - their 351 order at Pari should pretty much close the book on the 748 at UA. I know that as recently as last month Boeing was still trying to get UA to take some.
Things change, we learn to accept it - doesn't make it any less sad though

glideslope · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:10 pm

The Old Gal still has it!!! "Always the Queen of The Sky."

PW100 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
As much as I'm a VLA fan, I cannot call an order of 5 a 'major boost.' If it had been for a full year of production

Without (this) additional order(s), that could very well have been pretty much a full year of production of -8I for 2014 or 2015 . . .

connies4ever · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting glideslope (Reply 29):
The Old Gal still has it!!! "Always the Queen of The Sky."

Once ETOPS was approved, for quite a while the 762/763 was referred to as "The Queen of the Atlantic". There were way more of them operating across the pond than any mark of 747.

lightsaber · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 17):
Yep, they only bought it to build wingtips, wingtip extensions and the flap track fairing, because that's exactly like building entire engines like GE does (and the associated profit center of engine spares and parts and maintenance)

Yep. That must be the same value as the engines, say $60 million.

Lightsaber

sweair · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:27 pm

The 4 hauler market is ever shrinking, many don´t want to hear this but it is the way the market is turning. If we don't get some sort of energy revolution 4 engines will be a rare sight in just 5 years.

People are cheap they rather go in cattle class than fly in style. I long for the 80s and 90s..

Cattle class is bearable up to 4-5 hours at tops, beyond that Y+ is the only option.

sankaps · Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 26):
Find the information here:

http://techcenter.koreanair.com/Aero...ngEN/AboutCompany/CeoGreeting.aspx

They would probably be heavily involved in any Korean Fighter Deal.

Thanks, I did not know that. So they have been making parts for wings and flaps for Boeing aircraft for a while now -- 737NG/777/744 and now 748. I fully agree then that this may definitely have played a role on KE supporting the 748i more than other airlines might.

http://www.koreanair.com/local/kr/gd/eng/au/pr/20091021_65206.jsp

[Edited 2013-06-20 12:54:24]

L0VE2FLY · Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 24):
20 VLAs should be more than enough to cover those markets, and HNL, YVR, SYD and AKL may not even be suitable candidates for those planes due to the dearth of premium demand.

Don't forget that KE will have a fleet of 16 77Ws that can adequately cover the markets not listed above. That's why I don't think KE will order any more VLAs at this point. Their rival Asiana also has 6 A380s on order. That should be more than enough for a country of 50 million.

KE don't cater for Koreans only, it's a big player on the Kangaroo Route & North America-Asia market, they even fly to GRU via LAX. They definitely have expansion plans in most of these markets.

Quoting sweair (Reply 33):
People are cheap they rather go in cattle class than fly in style. I long for the 80s and 90s..

Cattle class is bearable up to 4-5 hours at tops, beyond that Y+ is the only option.

A lot of folks are cheap because they can't afford anything better.

zeke · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Yep. That must be the same value as the engines, say $60 million.

I am not sure what you are getting at here. The 747-8 production backlog is small, Boeing have already announced a scaling back in production capacity.

As capacity reduces, it will come a time where it will cost the more to produce the parts than what they get back from them, it could well be in in excess of 60 million.

I do not know what the exact numbers are, rumors I have heard is that including this order, they have only about 20-25 airframes worth of 747-8 parts to make.

F9Animal · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:48 pm

I am surprised this beauty is struggling with sales. Hope more airlines jump on the band wagon! Lufthansa paint looks sexy on the 747!!

ZKSUJ · Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
It's hard to imagine United NOT having a 747. They have been a standard

That would go for many airlines though. I'm in my mid/late twenties and have never seen a some airlines without 747s, but it does look inevitable. QF, NZ, BA, AF, MH to name a few. And 10 years ago if you told me SQ and JL would be 747 less I'd be laughing at you. It's very sad and its great KE are keeping it going, but short of a miracle that's the trend

The 747 is still my favorite aircraft, and I'm still hoping that others will buy it the 8I eventually (NZ in particular even though chances of it happening are very very minute)

brilondon · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 33):
The 4 hauler market is ever shrinking, many don´t want to hear this but it is the way the market is turning. If we don't get some sort of energy revolution 4 engines will be a rare sight in just 5 years.

People are cheap they rather go in cattle class than fly in style. I long for the 80s and 90s..

Cattle class is bearable up to 4-5 hours at tops, beyond that Y+ is the only option.

No, not really. If they only had a choice of a couple of airlines that would offer a premium only type of service a percentage of people would pay for it, but they don't see the need to spend money then they have to when cattle class is available.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 37):
I am surprised this beauty is struggling with sales. Hope more airlines jump on the band wagon! Lufthansa paint looks sexy on the 747!!

I don't think looks are a determining factor in choosing an aircraft. If that were the case there should be no takers for the A380.

kc135topboom · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
KE ordering a 747-8 is like GECAS ordering a GE powered aircraft. They produce part of the aircraft, they are supporting their own manufacturing.

You didn't say that years ago when KE ordered 10 A-380s. I believe they have 5 or 6 by now. KE also has some 24 A-330s, with another 8 still to be delivered.

So, out of 103 aircraft in their passenger fleet, at least 30 are Airbus aircraft.

shankly · Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
A major boost to the 748I program

I am sure Vickers inferred something similarr when EAA ordered their VC-10's....

boeingguy26 · Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:54 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 39):
I don't think looks are a determining factor in choosing an aircraft. If that were the case there should be no takers for the A380.

hOMSaR · Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 22):
HOmSaR - what wouldn't be allowed in the US?

It's just an assumption on my part, but wouldn't the requirement separating airlines and aircraft manufacturers apply to suppliers as well?

aryonoco · Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:55 am

To think of a world where UA, MH, QF et al won't be flying the Queen, and yet my home airline IR might have hers still in working condition!

Speaking of which, in an alternate world, where the revolution hadn't happened and sanctions weren't there, I'm sure IR would have ordered some... that 748i would look so good next to a SP

Stitch · Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting HOmSaR (Reply 43):
It's just an assumption on my part, but wouldn't the requirement separating airlines and aircraft manufacturers apply to suppliers as well?

Based on past precedent, US anti-trust laws forbid a commercial airline from also owning an aircraft manufacturer and an engine manufacturer. Boeing was forced to divest itself of (what would become) United Airlines and Pratt & Whitney in 1934 with the passage of the Airmail Act.

That being said, the competitive landscape in commercial aviation in the US is very different in 2014 than it was in 1934. So while an airline owning or being owned by an airplane manufacturer might not be allowed, I think GE might be able to successfully launch it's own airline if it wanted.

zeke · Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 40):

Does KAL ASD have similar work packages on the A380 ? No......

The current 747-8 backlog is equivilant to about a years production on the A380.

KAL ASD makes parts for the A320, elevator parts and sharklets. They are subcontractors to others on the A330 fuselage skin and A350 (euro copter for the A350 cargo doors).

The 747-8 is different as the have one of the larger external work packages, and it is a low production build model. They have a heavy involvement in Boeing products.

Boeing 737 Fairings - Flap support fairing
Boeing 747 Fairings - Flap track fairing ; Winglets - Wing tip extension, winglet
Boeing 767 Fuselage Sections - Body sections
Boeing 777 Fairings - Flap support fairing ; Winglets - Wing tip assembly
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Winglets - Raked wing tips ; Fairings - Flap support fairing ; Aircraft Structural Components - Aft body structural assemblies; nose wheel well assemblies; after wheel well bulkhead

Source http://www.airframer.com/direct_detail.html?company=115548

On Leeham.net Scott stated the LH order was driven by a compensation deal to do with the shutting down of Connexion by Boeing, and Korean with the 787/747-8F delays.

jupiter2 · Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:18 am

Zeke,
Interesting that you don't mention that Korean Air Aerospace also manufacture parts for Airbus for the 330, 380 and more recently the 350. Suppose that's why KE order from Airbus as well, gotta keep those employees working....lol.

EPA001 · Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:42 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 33):
The 4 hauler market is ever shrinking, many don´t want to hear this but it is the way the market is turning. If we don't get some sort of energy revolution 4 engines will be a rare sight in just 5 years.

You are correct on two counts. 1. Yes, the 4-holer market is shrinking. 2. I do not want to hear that, though it is the reality of today in civil aviation. Wink

.

And at many airports 4-holers are already a rare site to see. Luckily the A380 and the B748 are making sure that we will see 4-holers for a long time to come, but they indeed will be rare.

[Edited 2013-06-21 05:31:50]

bikerthai · Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:25 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
I think GE might be able to successfully launch it's own airline if it wanted.

Why would they

Boeing folk lore once stated that GE could have bought Boeing if they wanted to (this was before the MD merger). But GE decided they wanted better return on investment.

They, as Boeing do have an airplane financing arm . . . which is almost like owning an airline without having to deal with the passengers.

bt

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