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r2rho
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DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:25 am

Heavily slot-constrained DUS wants to issue a request for more slots next year.
They want to operate at 60 ops/hour (the capacity of two close parallels) rather than the current 45 (the capacity of one runway). The number of movements could therefore raise from 217,000 last year to 252,000. Furthermore they want to remove the requirement to notify use of the 2nd runway with one week in advance.
Demand already exceeds capacity between 0700-1000 and 1500-1800.

In exchange, the airport offers to significantly increase penalties for delayed flights in the late hours.

http://www.airliners.de/slot-mangel-...etriebgenehmigung-beantragen/29864

I'll believe it when I see it, but good to see that the airport will at least try to challenge the status quo.
 
PanHAM
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:35 am

There is no reason to deny this request. The business is there, it benefits the public which creates the demand and our economy is not based on rationing the scarce resources. These times are, fortunately, gone since over 20 years.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
cgnnrw
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:43 am

That would be great to see an increase in capacity at DUS. This could open the door for new carriers. However, I seriously doubt this will get the approval of the neighboring communities. The "Wutbürger" movement in Germany is so strong it's almost impossible to get anything done in the country without a slew of protests and irrelevant lawsuits.
A330 man.
 
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seahawk
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:47 am

Will be bitterly fought against by the people living in the approach and all cities affected by it. Won´t go through. The Angerland treaty is still valid and it allows only a single runway use. A wet dream by the airport - nothing more.
 
PanHAM
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:20 pm

Why so pessimistic. People want mobility and the requirement to operate up to 60 movements per hour is proven.

The artifical capping of available capacity does not make sense at all.,

Judging from the capacity increase of about 30K movements p.a. this is intended for the peak hoiurs 7 am to 10 am and 4 pm to 7 pm only
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:23 pm

I am realistic. The confirmation fo the Angerland treaty is recent and I fail to see any political desire in NRW to push that move forward given the current government.
 
PanHAM
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:52 pm

the current government got a black eye trying to close CGN at night for pax flights. The airport is in a position to request the additional capacity, it has reasonable proof that the capacity is necessary and that there is a public demand.

Simple as that. Governments are not almighty and they also have to consider that there will be a couple of thousand new jobs added. Courts will decide and by the time the legal procedure is through there will be another one or two elections.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Andie007
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:02 pm

The extension of traffic is surely needed at Duesseldorf Intl. - as DUS rather had a moderate growth in the last few years (without really participating on the global playground of the airline industry), this movement is overdue.

But on the other hand DUS should consider thoughts on the extension of terminal space (Terminal D?) as typically the approval process as well as the construction work will take approx. 10 years. Not moving in this direction will cause the next problems in a couple of years.
 
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mercure1
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The artifical capping of available capacity does not make sense at all.,

And subjecting the community to more noise and negative impacts does not make any sense either.

There is long established policy at DUS, so let the industry live within it. Airlines industry needs to stop bullying people.
mercure f-wtcc
 
PanHAM
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 8):
There is long established policy at DUS, so let the industry live within it. Airlines industry needs to stop bullying people.

The airline industry is a service industry providing a public service. Flights are not operated for fun but because there is a demand.

In a poll about 4,5 million complain about road traffic noise, about 3,5 million complain about rail noise and 250000 about aircraft noise. Obviously, the majority has a different opinion than you have.

DUS is frequented by over 20 million pax p.a. and is in the top 75 airport legue worldwide. The airport is a major factor for public and private income in the region.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
the current government got a black eye trying to close CGN at night for pax flights. The airport is in a position to request the additional capacity, it has reasonable proof that the capacity is necessary and that there is a public demand.

In September 2002 the court confirmed the binding nature of the Angerland treaty. It clearly limits the airport to one runway, with the secondary only to be used in emergencies or when the first is not available. Jobs, demand or whatever is not important in this consideration. With political will one could make small adjustments (33% more movements is not small) given there is political will to do so. Red-Green however can not afford another decisions that will object the airport communities to more noise pollution.
 
Tobias2702
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
The airline industry is a service industry providing a public service. Flights are not operated for fun but because there is a demand.

Last time I checked, the airline industry in Europe was deregulated, governed by the rules of the free market... Not exactly what I would call "a public service". So to speak, flights are indeed operated for fun (which is called "profit" in an airline's point of view).

Laws must be stable. This is a property of a true democracy, as opposed to despotic regimes with a lack of legal certainty. If there are valid treaties in force that prevent DUS from being expanded, than one just should accept it.

[Edited 2013-06-20 08:50:11]
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
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seahawk
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:52 pm

I found a way better article explaining the planing of the airport.
http://www.derwesten.de/wr/staedte/d...tarts-und-landungen-id8089686.html

It is only 50% of the time for 60 movements. So this would mean only 15% more movements and they would only happen in the uncritical time periods from 07:00-08:00, 10:00-13:00 and 17:00-19:00. This seems reasonable, although it is close to the limits of what can be legally constructed from the Angerland treaty.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
The airline industry is a service industry providing a public service. Flights are not operated for fun but because there is a demand.

Oh common.

Airline operate flights for a single reason = € € €

Airline service is hardly a public service like a bus or subway.

Airlines are in search of that €, and can hardly care if they disturb more people, or any other harm they create.
They only want to earn that €, and in that endeavour they would seek to abolish any regulations that stand in the way.

That is the bottom line. Capitalism at its finest.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PanHAM
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 12):
t is only 50% of the time for 60 movements. So this would mean only 15% more movements and they would only happen in the uncritical time periods from 07:00-08:00, 10:00-13:00 and 17:00-19:00. This seems reasonable, although it is close to the lim

I mentioned that before, it can be easily calculated form the increase shown in the article posted.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 11):
Last time I checked, the airline industry in Europe was deregulated, governed by the rules of the free market... Not exactly what I would call "a public service". So to speak

I've got news for you, public services, such as trains, public transport, is, these days solely run under the same conditions as any private company. Even when fares are subsidized, which is the case in public transport, the company is run like any other commercial enterprise. Best example is DB AG.

The difference with airlines is that they are not subsidized, but they offer a service for which there is a public demand and the infrastructure must be improved from time to time to make that possible.

Without transportation, be that for passengers or goods, a modern economy cannot exist.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 11):
Laws must be stable. Th

Laws must be adapted to the ecoomic conditions, The present aviation law is inadequate and the new government , whoever that will be, must tackle that in the upcoming new legislature. The EU will have a word or two as well.

But that is not the case here. The airport has a right to apply for additional slots under the current law. Nothing else happens right now., it is an application which will be run through the legal mill. Anmd again, there is a public demand for these additonal flights and the num ber of people demanding the flights is by far greater than those complaining.

That's democracy as well.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Airline operate flights for a single reason = € € €

yes, that's the only way to run a company, regardless what the purpose of the company is. No corporation can exist without profits.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
r2rho
Topic Author
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:07 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
There is no reason to deny this request. The business is there, it benefits the public which creates the demand

The business case is obvious, but unfortunately also irrelevant. Only the political case matters. And there it's an impossible battle.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 3):
A wet dream by the airport

Yes, but it is nice to pursue one's dreams, otherwise nothing would ever change. Might as well give it a try.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Airline operate flights for a single reason = € € €

Given how much profit the airline industry has made over the past decades, I increasingly think that they actually do fly just for fun  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Airline service is hardly a public service

A public service does not necessarily have to be provided by a public company. In any case, "essential service" is probably the better wording here.
 
boysteve
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 10):
In September 2002 the court confirmed the binding nature of the Angerland treaty. It clearly limits the airport to one runway, with the secondary only to be used in emergencies or when the first is not available. Jobs, demand or whatever is not important in this consideration. With political will one could make small adjustments (33% more movements is not small) given there is political will to do so. Red-Green however can not afford another decisions that will object the airport communities to more noise pollution.

I have flown into DUS several times over recent years (probably 3 times trips per year for the last 7 years. I was convinced that quite often both runways were in use! I am on drugs????
 
DUSint
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:03 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 16):
I have flown into DUS several times over recent years (probably 3 times trips per year for the last 7 years. I was convinced that quite often both runways were in use! I am on drugs????

Well, I can't answer your question, I am afraid.  
But what I can do is confirm, that both parallels may be used simultaneously (though only as close parallels and not to the limit; r2rho already explained that). It is a quite complicated, elaborate system which is the result of the ever ongoing... well... "competition" between the airport opponents and supporters. The "Angerland treaty" (Angerland Vergleich) was already mentioned by seahawk.

However, you can look up the way the parallels have to be used by the DUS ops here:
http://konzern.dus.com/nachbarflughafen/flugbetrieb/bahnsystem/
(sorry, German only).
 
boysteve
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:16 pm

OK so what I grasp is that the two runways basically work as one in dual mode in order to keep to the capacity restrictions as laid down by law. Result: I am not on drugs when I go to DUS (not sure if that is good or bad)!
 
lastrow
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RE: DUS To Request Easing Of Slot Restrictions

Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
There is no reason to deny this request.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The artifical capping of available capacity does not make sense at all.,
Quoting r2rho (Reply 15):
The business case is obvious, but unfortunately also irrelevant. Only the political case matters.

well, there are some people who live right in the approach path (west bound) which is at the south of Essen. Living there has the following effects, people:

* will need to stop talking if outside when an airplane approaches
* will wake up at 06:00 am in the morning also on Sunday if you have light sleeps
* cannot dry clothes on the balcony because they will get dirty over the day (depending on if this bothers you, of course)

Not talking about when the wind turns and planes start taking off east bound.

DUS has the disadvantage that its flight lines are in a densely populated area. No wonder in the "Ruhrgebiet". This is not KIX, HKG or MUC.

I fully support the limitation of movements if not at the same time harsher noise limits would be applied.

[Edited 2013-06-21 13:20:01]

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