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N328KF
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Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Leahy revealed that Airbus is offering a shorter-range A350-900 model to compete with Boeing's new 787-10. I think this is ironic, given that he just slammed the 777X as a "paper airplane."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...airbus-leahy-idUSBRE95J0J320130620
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KarelXWB
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:53 pm

It's just an A359 with de-rated thrust.
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seahawk
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:02 pm

That is interesting when we consider what LH said about their future replacement for A343/744/A346.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:32 pm

I still think Airbus should do a A330NEO
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
I still think Airbus should do a A330NEO

By the time an A330neo enters the market, the A350 and 787 will be available within 2 years making the neo already obsolete.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:39 pm

Nothing wrong with another purchasing option out there.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
I still think Airbus should do a A330NEO

It's pretty clear Airbus doesn't want to do one, but it also was pretty clear Boeing really didn't want to do the MAX either. Sometimes circumstances force your hand.
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StickShaker
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:14 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
It's just an A359 with de-rated thrust.

I would have thought a 350-1000 with the 359 wings and gear was a better bet - more complex, more expensive (in terms of R&D) and longer to get to market but it better emulates the 787-10 / 330 concept.


Cheers,
StickShaker
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:03 pm

Interesting that he now offers this aircraft AT THIS TIME. Never heard of it before, and maybe he and his engineers see the handwriting on the wall and see a possible big winner that Boeing has in the 787-10, and they believe they have to offer something that will directly compete with it.

Ironically, I see it as an endorsement of the 787-10 concept. I guess we'll see.

Will make for some interesting months and years ahead.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
It's pretty clear Airbus doesn't want to do one, but it also was pretty clear Boeing really didn't want to do the MAX either. Sometimes circumstances force your hand.

Sure, but Airbus has an alternative available with this offering. Boeing didn't have an alternative to the MAX, other than being completely blown out of the water or going completely clean-sheet. As awesome as an A330NEO might [have been], the A350 will fit the bill fine without the additional investment.

One thing that Boeing has to deal with more IMHO is its own models competing with one-another. It's the downside to their approach of doing warmed-over vs clean-sheet designs. Airbus, by virtue of having a much younger and more cohesive product line, doesn't have to deal with this as much (particularly now that the 340 is dead), so why go there with a warmed-over 330 when you are just going to be pitching it against your own 350 as well?

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Aviaponcho
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:10 pm

Neutronstar, it has been on offer for a while .... from start indeed

It's a paper derate ... with derated engine

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...for-medium-haul-operations-224656/

dated June 2008
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 9):
Neutronstar, it has been on offer for a while .... from start indeed

It's a paper derate ... with derated engine

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Wonder why it wasn't hyped more, but maybe all the press and media was focusing on the A350-1000 and the numerous changes some of their customers wanted.
 
sweair
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:17 pm

So much for the 767-400  
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 10):

I guess you'll also see Paper derate A350-1000 for QC1 departure, just like there is a 490t A380-800 tailored for QC1 departure
 
roseflyer
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:03 pm

How much of a market is there for a simple derated engine?

It wouldn’t surprise me if an Asian customer requested this, so Airbus is offering such a plane. Asiana for example has all 3 variants of the A350 on order and use most of their A330s and 767s on flights under 7 hours, so they may benefit from a derated A350 since the majority of their fleet wouldn’t need long haul range.
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airbazar
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
How much of a market is there for a simple derated engine?

just count the number of "derated" 777's that are flying or were flying before the A333 evolved into what it is today.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:11 pm

What is the aircraft weight of an A350-900 compared to the 787-10?
 
NYC777
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:33 pm

See Leahy loves doing this. Initial response to the 787 was a warmed over A330, then and A330 with ne engines which they called the A350, then when SUH and a few other customers poured scorn over that it was the A350XWB. They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
See Leahy loves doing this. Initial response to the 787 was a warmed over A330, then and A330 with ne engines which they called the A350, then when SUH and a few other customers poured scorn over that it was the A350XWB. They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.

Versus....?

"Our 737NG can hold it's own against the A320NEO" to "We are looking at an all new design as a re-engined 737 wouldn't hit the targets" to "OMG - Here's our new, very competitive 737MAX! (don't touch the paper - the ink on the picture is still wet)".

Look, it is what it is. Why make it something that it's not?

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
travelavnut
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 12):
QC1 departure

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a QC1 departure?
Live From Amsterdam!
 
astuteman
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
Leahy revealed that Airbus is offering a shorter-range A350-900 model to compete with Boeing's new 787-10

Yup.

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
I think this is ironic, given that he just slammed the 777X as a "paper airplane."

Why? This one isn't a paper plane. It's already flying for real. The range reduction is a paper derate of the bog standard plane. Nothing more. Nothing less

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 7):
Interesting that he now offers this aircraft AT THIS TIME. Never heard of it before

It's been on offer for almost 5 years ....

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 9):
dated June 2008

Indeed

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.

It's a "reaction" that's 5 years old if that's the case.

It would be nice if people did a bit more research rather than opening their mouths and putting their foot in it.

There's plenty of high ground available in the argument as to whether an A350-900 derate is the best response to the 787-10, or whether Leahy's doing his usual put-down, and an A350-1000 de-rate would in reality be better....

Rgds
 
airbazar
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.

How is it a reaction when a derated option was available before the 787-10? Derated engine options are not new, they've been around for a long time. They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 just like Boeing knew for years that the A350 would have a derated engine option. Just about every modern jetliner has an option for derated engines, so why make JL's comment any more than what it is? An opinion.


Quoting planesntrains (Reply 17):
Look, it is what it is. Why make it something that it's not?

  
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:00 pm

Exactly. One would think that a news agency like Reuters would check their facts first.

Anyway, offering the same airframe with a lower MTOW is not unusual. The A380 for example is available with a MTOW between 490t and 575t.

http://www.airbus.com/support/mainte...cal-data/aircraft-characteristics/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
DUSint
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:14 pm

To be fair to those, who didn't know about the availability of a derated A359:
We haven't talked very much in this forum about this variant, though maybe I have overlooked it?

For example, we had at least one discussion/thread about the competition between B787-10 and the A350-900 this week.
Wouldn't it be interesting to have some numbers how both derivatives economics compare taking the "A359 Eco" (the derated one) rather than the "regular" A359? Or did I miss, that we discussed this already, too?

I am far away, knowledge-wise, to give those numbers - but I would very much appreciate if someone could.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:40 am

I'd guess that Airbus would also paper reduce the MTOW to aid in landing fee reduction.
BV
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:45 am

A derated A359 will be as appealing as derated aircraft always have been: only marginally.
And the hype of the last 5 years about it will just continue....
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
ferpe
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 23):
I'd guess that Airbus would also paper reduce the MTOW to aid in landing fee reduction.

The thing is called Weightvariants by Airbus, if you look into the 330 ACAP

http://www.airbus.com/support/mainte...cal-data/aircraft-characteristics/

you will see many of these, some come from the gradual increase of MTOW and other weights as the frame matures but others come from this adaptation of the frame to it's usage. There are nominally 3 advantages I can think of from a derate variant if it fits your route structure:

- you pay less underway and landing fees

- your engine costs goes down, either longer time on wing or lower power-by-the-hour fees

- sometimes the MZFW goes up a bit for a lower MTOW variant, something Leahy indicates happens with the A350. So your max payload increases.

Worth to consider if you don't need the higher weights and therefore ranges
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Aviaponcho
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 18):

It's noise related for operating out of Heathrow
Every airplane as a noise signature that put it in a QC (quota counf) category for departure (takeoff) and arrival (landing)
Ranging from QC0.25 to 8 if I recall

A350-1000 308t will be QC2 Departure / QC 0.5 arrival
A350-900 at MTOW will be QC1 / QC0.5

For night ops you need to be QC1 departure
So with reduced MTOW Airbus can make a QC1 departure A350-1000, just as it reduced A380-800 MTOW from 560 t to 490t for the same reason (A380-800 490 t QC1 departure is still capable of reaching Dubai of course  )
 
travelavnut
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:43 am

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 26):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 18):


It's noise related for operating out of Heathrow

Thanks Aviaponcho!
Live From Amsterdam!
 
maxter
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:47 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
See Leahy loves doing this. Initial response to the 787 was a warmed over A330, then and A330 with ne engines which they called the A350, then when SUH and a few other customers poured scorn over that it was the A350XWB. They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.

It's been about 16 hours since there were a couple of well thought out and reasoned responses to your post, just wondering if you have any comment?

Just sayin!!!
maxter
 
mffoda
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting maxter (Reply 28):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
See Leahy loves doing this. Initial response to the 787 was a warmed over A330, then and A330 with ne engines which they called the A350, then when SUH and a few other customers poured scorn over that it was the A350XWB. They knew for years that Boeing was going to do the 787-10 and now they're reacting again with a de-rated 350.

It's been about 16 hours since there were a couple of well thought out and reasoned responses to your post, just wondering if you have any comment?

Just sayin!!!

I have a question. How many of the A359 backlog are for this variant? I mean if it has been offered for 5 years... Why would just come to light now that the 781 has been launched?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 29):
How many of the A359 backlog are for this variant?

That's not easy to find out, there is not really a complete database with the MTOW used by every single airline available. There is the ATDB, but you have to pay for full access.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
astuteman
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 29):
Why would just come to light now that the 781 has been launched?

It hasn't just come to light though.
That's the point. It was declared 5 years ago, and we had lengthy threads on here.
It's just not been in the news since.
Perhaps that's because the A350 lite isn't all that attractive compared to the baseline product. Who knows?
Reality though, is that lots of them will get derated as a matter of course in normal use

Rgds
 
trex8
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 25):
- sometimes the MZFW goes up a bit for a lower MTOW variant, something Leahy indicates happens with the A350. So your max payload increases.

Why is that? Wouldn't structure be optimized for max payload for all high MTOW variants and I can see there may be some '"fiddle'' factor how you apportion MZFW and MTOW for lower certified MTOW but seems to me it would be diificult to structurally get more payload?
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:22 am

I don't see any real savings on airport fee's as the airplane would be operated at a similar weight, otherwise they wouldn't be operating an airplane with de-rated engines. My understanding is that when you de-rate you operate the engine at a lower temp, so as the margin between this temp and the max temp decreases over time until it is exceeded, you get more time on wing, thus less expensive engine overhauls.

Isn't this what Lufthansa was complaining about, heavier airframes and engines then what is required, de-rated or not?

[Edited 2013-06-21 21:23:24]
 
trex8
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:32 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 33):
I don't see any real savings on airport fee's as the airplane would be operated at a similar weight, otherwise they wouldn't be operating an airplane with de-rated engines. My understanding is that when you de-rate you operate the engine at a lower temp, so as the margin between this temp and the max temp decreases over time until it is exceeded, you get more time on wing, thus less expensive engine overhauls.

Isn't this what Lufthansa was complaining about, heavier airframes and engines then what is required, de-rated or not?

If you operate the A359 at a lower certified weight, your fees are lower. Maybe no less than a 787-10 but lower than the ''stock'' A359.

If you are a likely big operator ie UA,SQ etc of many dozens airframes then getting the most optimal one for the route may work best especially of you have the types in the fleet. if you are a smaller operator ''abusing" one type like the A359 may work better even without a derate.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:37 am

One last thing, the OEMs charge for thrust, so reducing the max thrust of the engine reduces the cost of the engine. If you want to increase later, you will have to pay for that thrust. Same goes with airplane operating weights, each tail number has a max weight, which can be different then a sister ship, less weight, cheaper price for the airplane. If you decide to increase you pay for that weight, as the airplane is mor e capable. Of course all these weights and thrust would be equal or less then the max in the TC.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Leahy:We Have An A350 Model To Compete With 787-10

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:43 am

If you changed the operating weight of the airplane in addition to the reduced max thrust, then yes you would reduce the fee.

Reducing the thrust on some airplanes in a fleet, but keeping the same operating weight could be an option.

In other words, can't argue your point trex.

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