Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
spantax
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:44 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:24 pm

Just a side note. Last Friday at around 17.00 I wrote to IB customer service email address asking something about their new webpage. In fact I didn't see the "pre-booking" option because it was hidden by another kind of scroll bar (the one used to show the flights details). Well, not a specially difficult case to deal with, me thinks. The point is that until now, 72 hours later, I haven't got an answer. And this is not the first time. Nothing more to say.
A300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380, AN-2, AN-26, ATR42, AVR85, 100, B717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 777, Q400, B1900D, C130, C212,
CH47, CRJ200, 700, 900, DC-3, DC-9, DHC4, ERJ 145, 190, F50, 70, 100, HS146, IL114, MD83, 87, 88.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:18 pm

I just ask one question: What, by giving specific facts/examples, have BA done to put IB in this situation?

I think we all know the answer to this one: NOTHING. I find it comical that the unions are actually using this argument with no backing whatsoever and that the staff have not question the union's reasoning. The unions are just using the good old days as their current standard and rallying up a storm about their pays/pensions by blaming the situation on their new partner that went through the same bit of restructuring a few years ago.

BA are now in a position for expansion and growth as a result of the sacrifices the employee's made. The same will hold true for IB if they accept that they will be gone if they do not fix their working practices.

Naturally IB is dependent upon the now weak Spanish economy. Of course it will hurt the airline. BA is dependent on the UK and North American financial sectors and a bump in that market (like in 2009) will hurt BA. What is so hard to accept about that?

I have talked with several BA staff that I work with and several have commented about the rude treatment they (and other British people) have been getting from IB staff, I would like to add.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 130):

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=29868

The plot thickens.

I find this hilarious and someone at BA is obviouslly getting fed up with IB as well. More prestige banting and old world pride from the IB unions, quelle suprise.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 131):
Well, he's been IAG's CEO, hence in charge of IB too for 2 1/2 years. Yet IB is worse off now that when he took over. Maybe it's time to prove his worth.

Or maybe it is bad timing? I don't think we can blame him for the collapse of the Spanish economy, however much the unions try to rub off that position.


I have always said that BA got a terrible deal when these two, very different, airlines decided to join forces. Let's think about this retrospectively: BA only owns 60% of IAG. This deal was done when BA were in a weak position (the weakest they had been in since privatization) and IB got a fantastic deal. I'm now sure that that decision was the worst decision ever brought upon the airline. They now have to deal with bad morale with their sister company and could, if necessary (and I hope this never happens) bail out IB through its own profits.

Does anyone know if there is an escape clause for BA? I think the trial period may be reaching its end. I would seriously be looking for ways to get BA out of this pitiful airline group if I were at Waterside.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 149):
Very good. So by 2010 what was left from the 1987 BA?

A very militant and unmanageable cabin crew union called BASSA which Mr Walsh was hired to smash (allegedly)
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 149):
However, I will say that if the 2010 strike was due to (or influenced by) issues relating to the pre-1987 BA, then somebody at BA has not been doing his/her job very well during those 23 years.

You are right to an extent. That's why "Mr Nasty" Willie Walsh was recruited in 2005 to finally "fix" BA.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
I think we all know the answer to this one: NOTHING.

Isn't that a bad thing? Isn't management supposed to do something rather than nothing?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:56 am

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...=irol-EventDetails&EventId=4870758

Keep your eye on this link tomorrow; the June Traffic and Capacity Statistics will be released.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
The unions

Just a general reminder: it is the union, in singular. The pilots' union Sepla to be more precise. All other IB unions agreed to the proposal of the mediator back in march.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
BA got a terrible deal

That's just looking at the instantaneous picture. IMO, if succesfully turned around, IB (or in any case, LatAm and MAD) has much more future potential. BA operates in a mature market out of a constrained airport that cannot grow. IB operates to a market that is only starting to fully develop out a fantastic hub facility with plenty of growth capacity. So it depends on how you look at it.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:21 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 156):
. BA operates in a mature market out of a constrained airport that cannot grow. IB operates to a market that is only starting to fully develop out a fantastic hub facility with plenty of growth capacity. So it depends on how you look at it.
BA is probably the only airline at LHR that is not constrained with a recently acquired vault of slots waiting to be utilised as and when the time arises.

Developing markets will be served largely by their own kind. In the case of Latin America - BA's parent is also IB's parent and LATAM is joining Oneworld.

Existing mature carriers will no where near match the growth rates of relatively new carriers like EK or LATAM etc but between them they will meet demand.

Airlines like LH, BA, UA, DL, AF, SQ etc etc will not grow and grow ad infinitum just like emerging airlines like EK won't....the world is only so big.........eventually a plateau will be reached and hopefully everyone will have healthy bottom lines fed by appropriately sized networks.

[Edited 2013-07-02 06:22:06]
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 157):
BA is probably the only airline at LHR that is not constrained with a recently acquired vault of slots waiting to be utilised as and when the time arises.

All BA's LHR slots gained from the purchase of BD are in current use. If they were not then they would be confiscated by the slot coordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd, and redistributed under the EU 80 rule that requires all slots to be used on a minimum of 80 per cent of occasions in any one season.

Of course it is possible that some of the BA LHR flights launched since the purchase of BD are slot-sitting flights. These new short-haul flights include LHR-ALC, LHR-LBA, LHR-RTM and LHR-ZAG and additional flights on existing routes such as the two new weekly flights it added between LHR and GIB.

If any of the above are slot sitting flights then some of them will disappear as the new 787s, 380 and the two 77Ws to be delivered later this year enter service. But today BA has no spare, unused LHR slots and, like other LHR users, is constrained from further expansion until it can obtain additional new slots or until it discontinues some existing services.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 154):
Isn't that a bad thing? Isn't management supposed to do something rather than nothing?

No, you misunderstand me. I was referring to the fact that BA, as its own airline, did NOTHING to cause IB to turn into this state. I do not understand the association the union is making between IB's lack of profitability and BA.

Management at IAG level are doing a lot. Purchasing new efficient planes for the airline (A330s), pulling back unprofitable routes (several) and trying to bring the airline's costs down to a competitive level (introducing IB Express). Yet, the fundamental concern in regards to costs have still not been accepted due to the resilience of the IB staff. They are making their own demise I'm afraid. Willie Walsh did the same to BA, and now BA is reaping the benefits of being a competitive airline (launching of new routes and expanding of the fleet) only after it went through its period of restructuring.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 158):

  
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 159):
I was referring to the fact that BA, as its own airline, did NOTHING to cause IB to turn into this state. I do not understand the association the union is making between IB's lack of profitability and BA.

People here are equating IAG with BA, because for all purposes the former BA management (Walsh in particular) is in charge at IAG.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 159):
Management at IAG level are doing a lot. Purchasing new efficient planes for the airline (A330s),

IB is receiving its first A330s, a previous generation aircraft, at the same time BA is receiving its first 787s, a current generation aircraft. I'm not sure this is going to convince a lot of people that the current IAG management has IB's best interests at heart.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
ollyhuk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 1:45 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:10 pm

The former management of BA are not in charge of IAG - the board is made up of equal numbers of ex Iberia and BA management. The CEO can not unilateraly make decisions and set a course - the board must agree to pursue any avenue chosen - the Board (not just the CEO) are after all accountable to Shareholders.

IAG have slots reserved for up to date aircraft for Iberia - but they will only be firmed once their house in in order.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 158):
All BA's LHR slots gained from the purchase of BD are in current use.

Currently in use yes for reasons you mention. Like you say they cannot just sit on them.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
IB is receiving its first A330s, a previous generation aircraft, at the same time BA is receiving its first 787s, a current generation aircraft.

The 787's were ordered 1 year before BA and IB announced even their 'plan' to merge. Scrapping plans that will keep IAG profitable is ludicrous. What do you want ? IB to become a success whilst in the meantime BA goes to the dogs ?

Very sensible.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
People here are equating IAG with BA, because for all purposes the former BA management (Walsh in particular) is in charge at IAG.

The financial markets know full well that Walsh & Co are the right people for the job and their plan is the correct one. That is why the share price has out performed their peers in Europe Air-France-KLM and Lufthansa Group by some margin.

[Edited 2013-07-02 09:44:56]
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
People here are equating IAG with BA, because for all purposes the former BA management (Walsh in particular) is in charge at IAG.

With respect, you are the only one that has suggested such a thing. People know good and well that WW is no longer in charge of BA or IB for that matter. He is head of IAG, the parent company that owns both airlines.

And yes, I'm not saying that WW does not have a say in the IB restructuring process, but it is quite evident that he did a good and well think to BA when he turned around BA four years ago. Surly you would want the same for IB as WW did for BA (considering now that BA is in a prime mode for expansion)? Yes it did not go down terribly well, but the benefits are now being reaped. Why is that so hard to see on the peninsula? It worked for BA, why can it not work for IB?
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 162):
The 787's were ordered 1 year before BA and IB announced even their 'plan' to merge. Scrapping plans that will keep IAG profitable is ludicrous. What do you want ? IB to become a success whilst in the meantime BA goes to the dogs ?

What the guy wants is that Willie Walsh goes back in time to 2007 and add some 787 orders for IB alongside the ones ordered for BA then, to make up for IB's own lack of planning.

The thing is that even if BA donated its 787s to IB, it would not solve the competiveness issue. The airline would still have indifference or little appeal, and its staff costs would not change as a result.
To be fair, many of IB's staff do know that they have to be more productive and have accepted that practices and conditions have to change, but it is the pilots, living in their one fantasy world- that refuse to accept a reality where competition means that their cushty conditions are no longer met by the fares people pay. Nor that there is anything that would make people pay more to have these Belle Époque señoritos pressing the buttons up front.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:16 pm

In recent discussions about BA being part of IAG, perhaps IAG should rename itself too....


BAG or BIAG


According to AB magazine July/August 2013 issue (Accountancy magazine) The proportion of IAG revenue generated by British Airways is 73.5%

A very good interview with Keith Williams CEO of British Airways who was the former CFO under Willie Walsh's leadership at BA.

He also goes on to say that Willie Walsh had a "definite cost discipline" while CEO at BA. And "Too many people in the airline industry get carried away by the smell of kerosene"
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 165):
According to AB magazine July/August 2013 issue (Accountancy magazine) The proportion of IAG revenue generated by British Airways is 73.5%

Thanks.

See page 14 here:

http://issuu.com/accaglobal_publications/docs/ab_uk-july13
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 163):
With respect, you are the only one that has suggested such a thing.

Here referes to Spain. There's a whole world outside of a.net. And it's not made up exclusively of stupid, uneducated people.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 164):
What the guy wants is that Willie Walsh goes back in time to 2007 and add some 787 orders for IB alongside the ones ordered for BA then, to make up for IB's own lack of planning.

Not really. Some, any, of the BA orders could have ended up in IB. Plus, IAG could have ordered 787s for IB but chose A330s instead. The point is that by watching IB receive their first A330s at the same time BA receives their first 787s, nobody is going to suddenly say "gee, IAG does treat the two airlines in the same way."
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 167):
"gee, IAG does treat the two airlines in the same way."

With IAG's non-IB part generating 73% of income I doubt anyone that matters gives a sh*t at the moment.
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1465
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 167):
Plus, IAG could have ordered 787s for IB but chose A330s instead

By ordering A330s IB were able to get much better aircraft than they were flying at the time much more quickly than if they had placed an order for 787s and gone to the back of a very long queue.

So, whilst the acquisition of A330s may not be the ideal solution for the long term, they will bring immediate benefits to IB.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 168):
With IAG's non-IB part generating 73% of income I doubt anyone that matters gives a sh*t at the moment.

And that, I guess, is the problem...

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 169):
By ordering A330s IB were able to get much better aircraft than they were flying at the time much more quickly than if they had placed an order for 787s and gone to the back of a very long queue.

What queue? BA had 787s in order, some of which could have gone to IB. Plus, we're talking about 8 aircraft, not 100. With all the 787 cancellations that happened in the last few years, I'm sure IAG could have convinced Boeing to find early slots for those 8 787s.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2682
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:33 pm

Dude, you must live in a parallel universe. What's truly perplexing though, is the tremendously patiently people here who are trying desperately to bash a bit knowledge into you, but sadly finding its harder than trying to make a pillow understand quantum physics.

Where do you buy those blinkers?
Signature. You just read one.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4110
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 167):
Not really. Some, any, of the BA orders could have ended up in IB. Plus, IAG could have ordered 787s for IB but chose A330s instead. The point is that by watching IB receive their first A330s at the same time BA receives their first 787s, nobody is going to suddenly say "gee, IAG does treat the two airlines in the same way
Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
IB is receiving its first A330s, a previous generation aircraft, at the same time BA is receiving its first 787s, a current generation aircraft. I'm not sure this is going to convince a lot of people that the current IAG management has IB's best interests at heart

Would that be the same BA that recently took delivery of their first 77W, and also fairly recently upped their order for this previous generation aircraft?

Just curious . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
timboflier215
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:03 pm

Can everyone please just agree to ignore UALWN and instead have a reasoned and educated discussion on the chances for IAG to turn IB around? Are the IB pilots now so entrenched that agreement is all but impossible? Or is compromise still a possibility?
 
bennett123
Posts: 9619
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:36 pm

One factor that would have supported choice of the A330 for IB is commonality.

Given that currently the IB is 100% Airbus, this is no big surprise.

I also note that new A330's continue to be delivered to a range of operators.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:35 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 171):
Dude, you must live in a parallel universe.

Really? How so? Maybe all of Spain does? Or maybe the BA fan boys do?

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 171):
harder than trying to make a pillow understand quantum physics.

Well, I do teach quantum physics for a living. Haven't tried to teach it to a pillow though. It's hard enough with the average student.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 172):
Just curious . . .

Yes, it's the same company. I was just replying to somebody who pointed out the new A330s for IB as a proof that IAG is taking care of IB properly. And I decided to compare this with BA's acquiring 787s (the "A330 killer") at the same time. It seems perfectly fair to me.On the other hand, the 77W has no competitor yet.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 174):

Indeed commonality might be part of the reason.

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 173):
Can everyone please just agree to ignore UALWN and instead have a reasoned and educated discussion on the chances for IAG to turn IB around?

I'd propose something else: why don't all BA fan-boys sporting the UK flag who have nothing to add to the discussion except for insults leave it quietly?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
charliecossie
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:17 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:53 am

Mr UALWN,
Please tell us all what Mr Walsh and the rest of the IAG BOD should do with regards to Iberia.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:07 am

UALWN, your disdain for British Airways and IAG is boundless. You manage to even turn positive events into a negative. I wonder what worth there is in responding, but on one point I shall.

Iberia was haemmorhaging cash on some routes to the Americas. The A346 is an excellent machine for many routes on the network, but Iberia were abusing it on other routes where its performance was not required.

Iberia, with IAG, undertook an in depth analysis of the company from which green shoots were identified and from which areas of concern were prioritised for improvement.

Iberia could have pulled every unprofitable route, though you and I can only imagine the devastating effect that would have had on customer confidence and on employee morale.

The decision, and it was by no means the cheapest or easiest option, was to bring in brand new, more economical and more suitable aircraft. Various factors underpinned the decision to go with the A333, not least the convenience, the simplicity and the cost effectiveness which would permit current Iberia crew to go straight from the A346 to the A333, which in turn will make it an almost seamless transition over to the A350.

Without a doubt, the decision to order the A333 was the right one.

Furthermore, in the interest of employee relations and morale at both airlines under IAG, the idea of BA Dreamliners going over to Iberia would have been foolhardy and a logistic nightmare.

You have, respectfully, got to cut Iberia and IAG a little slack on this issue.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:28 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 170):
What queue? BA had 787s in order, some of which could have gone to IB. Plus, we're talking about 8 aircraft, not 100. With all the 787 cancellations that happened in the last few years, I'm sure IAG could have convinced Boeing to find early slots for those 8 787s.

The 787's are replacing 767's at BA, a fleet with an average age of more than 20 years. meanwhile the Iberia A340 fleet has an average age of less than 10 years. It seems entirely logical from this that BA's need for the 787's was more pressing than IB.

As to convincing Boeing to find early slots for more IAG orders, 787 slots have been hard to come by for years due to the massive delays in the programme, thats one reason that the A330 has been selling so well, its the only choice available now.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 178):
The 787's are replacing 767's at BA, a fleet with an average age of more than 20 years

Excellent point. I had lost the will to make it.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 178):
As to convincing Boeing to find early slots for more IAG orders, 787 slots have been hard to come by for years due to the massive delays in the programme, thats one reason that the A330 has been selling so well, its the only choice available now.

Ditto above.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 176):
Please tell us all what Mr Walsh and the rest of the IAG BOD should do with regards to Iberia.

I'll tell you if you pay me what Mr. Walsh gets.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 177):
You have, respectfully, got to cut Iberia and IAG a little slack on this issue.

I believe I already acknowledged that above.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 178):
787 slots have been hard to come by for years due to the massive delays in the programme

There have been over 100 787 cancellations in the last 3 years. It couldn't have been difficult for BA to get 8 of those slots for IB, if that plan made any sense.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 180):
Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 178):
787 slots have been hard to come by for years due to the massive delays in the programme

There have been over 100 787 cancellations in the last 3 years. It couldn't have been difficult for BA to get 8 of those slots for IB, if that plan made any sense.

100 cancellations, but production of 787's was meant to have reached 10 per month about two years ago. They are probably the best part of 250 deliveries behind the original schedule by now. Additionally with orders in the region of 900 before first delivery many of the cancellations will have been for deliveries years down the line.

BA have had to refurbish worn out 767's (at Boeing's expense) due to late delivery of 787's, this proves that the delivery slots just aren't available, or Boeing would have saved their cash instead of spending it on tarting up 20 year old planes.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 181):
BA have had to refurbish worn out 767's (at Boeing's expense) due to late delivery of 787's, this proves that the delivery slots just aren't available, or Boeing would have saved their cash instead of spending it on tarting up 20 year old planes.

The guys on the ground did their best but the interiors were in a right state before the refurbish from what I remember. I frequented Nassau for a while and 9 hours was a long time on one of them !!
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 170):
What queue?

Around 900 outstanding 787 orders. Because of the delays in delivery for technical reasons this very long queue has little flexibility as airlines that have ordered the aircraft find themselves either with clapped out long haul aircraft that urgently need replacing, aircraft scheduled to be returned to their lessors with no immediate 787 to replace them as planned or simply very short of long haul capacity.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 170):
I'm sure IAG could have convinced Boeing to find early slots for those 8 787s.

They could not.

BA is one of the airlines affected as described above. Their initial order for 8 787 8s was scheduled for delivery between August 2010 and February 2011. If these aircraft had been delivered on time their operation of the 77W would not have happened . BA ordered two 77Ws and signed a leasing deal on four others (to speed delivery dates) back in August 2008 to provide capacity to cover for the late delivery and the long queue for the delayed 787.

With its unexpected merger with BD, BA again found itself short of long-haul capacity even with the original six 77Ws in service, with another two ordered in September 2011 for delivery in September and November of this year and yet two more ordered in July 2012 that are scheduled for delivery in the same months of 2014. IAG could not do what you suggest and obtain more favourable delivery positions for either the 787 or the 77W. So they entered into an agreement with Air Lease in January of this year to lease two additional 77Ws. These aircraft are part of an order for five aircraft that Air Lease placed in August 2011. They will be delivered to BA in May and June 2014 in advance of the two aircraft that BA already had on order, partly addressing their shortage of long haul capacity.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
IB is receiving its first A330s, a previous generation aircraft, at the same time BA is receiving its first 787s


It is equally true to say that BA will receive six new "previous generation" aircraft more or less at the same time as IB receives the last of its "previous generation" 330s. Note also that the latest BA order for these "previous generation" aircraft was placed with Air Lease after the orders from IB for their "previous generation" 330s.

Of course I understand your reluctance to acknowledge the step that the 330 is playing to move IB to a profitable future by displacing the 340 on routes that the 340 is totally economically unsuited. But not having to wait years for delivery of a new generation aircraft that IB, unlike BA, had not ordered prior to the formation of IAG is clearly a no brainer. The IB situation needs to be addressed now not in four or five years time as you are effectively suggesting.

Finally the argument that IB's purchase of , I believe, a total of eight "previous generation" 330s is wrong when BA has purchased 12 "previous generation" 77Ws seems to be very short on any reasonable logic and a total lack of balance. IB is expecting future delivery of a smaller number of such aircraft than is BA.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 180):
I'll tell you if you pay me what Mr. Walsh gets.

So in other words... You have absolutely no idea.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 180):
There have been over 100 787 cancellations in the last 3 years. It couldn't have been difficult for BA to get 8 of those slots for IB, if that plan made any sense.

It wouldn't be BA's problem. Since when does BA dictate fleet renewal policy to IB?

Anyways. If IB did get shiny new 787's would it make a difference?

You can fly the plane with the best economics, but you still won't make a profit if your economics don't add up on the ground..

Over staffing
under productivity from staff/management
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 169):
By ordering A330s IB were able to get much better aircraft than they were flying at the time much more quickly than if they had placed an order for 787s and gone to the back of a very long queue.So, whilst the acquisition of A330s may not be the ideal solution for the long term, they will bring immediate benefits to IB.
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 174):
One factor that would have supported choice of the A330 for IB is commonality.

The A330 are also so much more efficient then the gas guzzling A340 they replace. SO many of Iberia's flights to teh USA east coast & Miswest are with in the A330's range. Many destinations in Latin America are also within the A330's range except for Lima, Santiago de Chile and Buenos Aires.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:22 pm

June figures:

The gulf between the performance of British Airways and its loss-making sister airline Iberia is underlined by June's passenger statistics.

IAG reported group traffic up 8.2% in June, measured in revenue passenger kilometres (RPKs).

The figure was boosted by the acquisition of Spanish low cost carrier Veuling, which offset a dismal performance from its larger compatriot.

Iberia, in the midst of deep cuts, suffered an 18% fall in traffic compared with a 3.6% rise at BA.

Lucrative business and first class traffic grew by 1.9% on the previous year.


Credit finance wire & City&Finance.

Understand some significant changes on the way regarding synergies between Iberia Express and Vueling.

Rgds

[Edited 2013-07-04 10:05:14]
Flying around India
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 183):
It is equally true to say that BA will receive six new "previous generation" aircraft more or less at the same time as IB receives the last of its "previous generation" 330s.

If you are referring to the 77W, they are current generation. What aircraft would be the comparable current generation? The non-existent A350-1000?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 183):
Of course I understand your reluctance to acknowledge the step that the 330 is playing to move IB to a profitable future by displacing the 340 on routes that the 340 is totally economically unsuited.

I do acknoledge that, of course. For many of IB's routes the A333 is better suited than the A343. No question. But the 788 would be even better suited.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 183):
Finally the argument that IB's purchase of , I believe, a total of eight "previous generation" 330s is wrong when BA has purchased 12 "previous generation" 77Ws seems to be very short on any reasonable logic and a total lack of balance.

As I said before, the 77W is "current generation". The A350-1000 is future generation, since it won't EIS until 2018 or so.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 184):
So in other words... You have absolutely no idea.

No. But it's not my job. It's Willie Walsh's.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 184):
Since when does BA dictate fleet renewal policy to IB?

Since the former CEO of BA now runs IAG. But let's not get into this, please. The point was that IAG (not BA) could, maybe, have secured those slots. Or, as people have pointed out in the thread, maybe not.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 186):
Iberia, in the midst of deep cuts, suffered an 18% fall in traffic compared with a 3.6% rise at BA.

What was the cut to IB's ASKs? If you cut ASKs, you can hardly expect higher RPKs, right?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
AA94
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 168):
With IAG's non-IB part generating 73% of income I doubt anyone that matters gives a sh*t at the moment.

  

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 184):
You can fly the plane with the best economics, but you still won't make a profit if your economics don't add up on the ground..

  

.. and therein lies the problem.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 187):
Since the former CEO of BA now runs IAG. But let's not get into this, please. The point was that IAG (not BA) could, maybe, have secured those slots. Or, as people have pointed out in the thread, maybe not.

With respect, you are going to have to accept that Willie Walsh is not the demon you make him out to be. He is the head of the International Airlines Group , which means that he has a vested interest in ensuring Iberia's success. Everyone in this forum seems to understand this except for you.
 
charliecossie
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:17 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:01 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4, since LHR is slot constrained.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):
I'm, of course, not privy to Walsh's strategy concerning IB.

Er, run that one by me again.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
IB is being slowly dismantled. And the pilots union, if anything, is trying to oppose the dismantlement.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 95):
I really don't see what the pilots have to do with anything.

Er, run that one by me again.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 139):
This is more recent and more complete:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...04204

Directly from those numbers:-
European airlines employee cost per employee: 2012*
BA 67000EUR
IB 89000EUR
European airlines employee cost (EUR cent) per Available Tonne Kilometre: 2012*
BA 11.96cent
IB 21.35cent
European airlines operating profit (EUR) per employee: 2012*
BA 8030EUR
IB -21453EUR
Overall labour productivity ranking: 2012
1 Wizzair 11
12 British Airways 68
18 Iberia 101

Which bits don't you understand?

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
IB is receiving its first A330s, a previous generation aircraft,
Quoting UALWN (Reply 187):
If you are referring to the 77W, they are current generation.

Er, run that one by me again.
A330 EIS January 1994
B777 EIS June 1995

Quoting UALWN (Reply 180):
I'll tell you if you pay me what Mr. Walsh gets.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 187):
No. But it's not my job. It's Willie Walsh's.

Er, run that one by me again.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:20 am

Quoting AA94 (Reply 188):
He is the head of the International Airlines Group , which means that he has a vested interest in ensuring Iberia's success.

To be more precise, he has a vested interest in IAG's success, regardless of how that's achieved.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 189):
Which bits don't you understand?

You conveniently left out some interesting bits out of that report. Like the revenue per employee (in EUR):
BA: 308,657
IAG group: 304,109
IB: 295,887
LH group: 254,507
AK/KL group: 254,437
So IB employees are actually 16% more productive than those of LH and AF/KL, and only marginally (4%) less than those of BA. Interestingly, Vueling leads that table with a whooping 629,566 EUR per employee, 21% more than FR.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 189):
Er, run that one by me again.
A330 EIS January 1994
B777 EIS June 1995

Maybe you didn't read my other posts. I'll try again. The A330 has been superseded by the 787 (the purported 330-killer). The 77W (which, by the way, entered service in 2004, 10 years after the A333) has not been superseded by anything. It may be superseded by the A350-1000, once it enters operation circa 2018. So, yes, the 330 is a previous generation airplane, while the 77W is a current generation airplane.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:38 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 190):
Maybe you didn't read my other posts. I'll try again. The A330 has been superseded by the 787 (the purported 330-killer). The 77W (which, by the way, entered service in 2004, 10 years after the A333) has not been superseded by anything. It may be superseded by the A350-1000, once it enters operation circa 2018. So, yes, the 330 is a previous generation airplane, while the 77W is a current generation airplane.

Anything that is presently being offered by the airframe builders and subsequently being ordered by the airlines is "current generation"
 
bennett123
Posts: 9619
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:15 am

Now lets try another take on these figures. Just based on BA and IB.

BA

Rev per Employee e308,657
Employee cost e 67,000
Other costs e233,627

Operating Profit e 8,030

IB

Rev per Employee e 295,887
Employee Cost e 89,000
Other Costs e 228,340

Operating Loss e 21,453


Several factors are clear.

Firstly, that the Rev generated per employee is lower at IB by just over4%.

Secondly, that Employee Costs are higher by 25%.

I also took account of the difference between the 2 in Other Costs.

If these were e228,340 for both airlines, then BA would increase to e13,317, compared to a loss of e21,453 at IB.

I know that it has been suggested that some shiny new B787 would be the answer.

However, apart from commonality issue at IB being all Airbus and BA all Boeing, further is a second factor.

If the A330 is so dated compared to the B787, why are airlines still buying it.
 
charliecossie
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:17 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:38 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 190):
The A330 has been superseded by the 787

List all the airlines replacing A330s with 787s. I'll produce a much bigger list of those replacing 767s with 787s.
In fact, are there any airlines replacing A330s with 787s?
All 777s are one and the same. The 300ER is **NOT** a new type. EIS '95. Don't argue. I'm right. You're wrong.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 190):
You conveniently left out some interesting bits out of that report. Like the revenue per employee (in EUR):

ROTFL! Iberia staff cost 33% more than BA staff and you're dribbling on about revenue per employee. 33% greater cost per person? IB staff 22000 more than BA staff. Losses per IB staff member - 22000. Hmmmm.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 190):
the 330 is a previous generation airplane, while the 77W is a current generation airplane.

Tripe.

BTW, do you know Brian Cox? He's a very nice man.
Anyway, had enough. Bye.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:25 am

Perhaps for the sake of the argument...


Iberia is not a loss making airline... It just makes a negative profit   

Quoting UALWN (Reply 187):
Since the former CEO of BA now runs IAG. But let's not get into this, please. The point was that IAG (not BA) could, maybe, have secured those slots. Or, as people have pointed out in the thread, maybe not.

Ah back to Willie Walsh the demon again... A businessman trying to turn around a loss making company in a very heavily unionised and economically destroyed country.

Profitability is the difference between revenue and costs. it would seem, you are only judging revenue. It's possible to make a profit on a low revenue route (or in a low revenue market) as long as your costs are low enough.

The problem for Iberia is that, its antiquated cost structure mean that there are fewer and fewer routes on which it can make a profit.

would a fleet of brand new shiny 787's make a difference?

No!
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 193):
All 777s are one and the same. The 300ER is **NOT** a new type. EIS '95. Don't argue. I'm right. You're wrong.

This is ridiculous. The 777-300ER is a much improved version of the original 777. This is why it's selling like hot cakes, while the non-ER 777s are not selling at all. And its EIS was 2004. Pretending that the 77W is a 1995 aircraft is, well, disingenuous.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 193):
Iberia staff cost 33% more than BA staff and you're dribbling on about revenue per employee. 33% greater cost per person?

Yes. When IAG just decided to fire some 3000+ IB employees, I bring up the productivity of those employees. Cost per employee is dealt with cutting salaries (already done), not firing people.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 194):
Profitability is the difference between revenue and costs. it would seem, you are only judging revenue.

No. People were mentioning costs without looking at revenue. I brought up the revenue. Now we have all the numbers.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 195):
This is ridiculous. The 777-300ER is a much improved version of the original 777. This is why it's selling like hot cakes, while the non-ER 777s are not selling at all. And its EIS was 2004. Pretending that the 77W is a 1995 aircraft is, well, disingenuous.

Saying a 777-300ER is a 1995 airplane when its 2004 airplane is like saying a 747-400 is a 1970 plane when its a 1989 airplane.

Airbus loves to say how old some Boeing planes are but I would argue a 737-800 is newer then an A320. Why is it Airbus can't make a plane for a long time, after about 15 years they bring out a replacement. Its not Boeing fault the 777 is still in demand and Airbus feels its needed to bring the A350. Airbus could have made the 1993 A330 longer haul and not made the A340. Now that the A340 is a thirsty veteran they tout the A330 as the "New" 787 killer, but Leahy doen't tell us its engines are older generation engines.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 196):
Airbus could have made the 1993 A330 longer haul and not made the A340

I'm sure that Airbus built the 1993 A330 in order to maximise the then available engine technology. Gradual improvements to engine fuel burn have resulted in a plane that can now do much of what the 1993 A340 could promise.
Just as todays 777 is vastly more efficient than the original 772, so is todays A330 compared to the first examples.

Both are current production aircraft and still being ordered by airlines.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 195):
This is ridiculous. The 777-300ER is a much improved version of the original 777. This is why it's selling like hot cakes, while the non-ER 777s are not selling at all. And its EIS was 2004. Pretending that the 77W is a 1995 aircraft is, well, disingenuous.

Your arguments are just bolloney to the point of becoming the forum's hazmereir. Both the 777 and the A330 have improved over time.
Non-ER 777s have been superseded by better performing versions, just the early A330s have evolved, chiefly due to better engines, some lighter components and adjusted software. The 330 is certainly a current aircraft. Take Virgin Atlantic, who has only recently become an A330 customer. KLM keeps taking A330s too. Or Avianca, who has ordered additional A330s at the same as topping up its 787 orders so that it will have simultaneous deliveries of both types.

An appropriate fleet helps competitiveness, but it is not a panacea. LAN has 767s operating quite profitably -and keep taking deliveries of them!-
BA has 747s that will be in service for a few more years. Ditto with its 777s. In fact, the 787s will for now be a very small part of its fleet.
So to suggest that diverting some of these to Iberia will solve its problems is just ludicrous.
IAG has secured some delivery slots for both 787s and A350s for Iberia, at the same time as it placed an order for the same types for BA. The former is subject to Shareholder approval, and the latter subject to the restructuring, without which and in a new economic reality, a long term operational viability has to be shown.
Indeed, IB has not had a profitable air transport operation since 2007.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical

Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 198):
Your arguments are just bolloney to the point of becoming the forum's hazmereir

Can you point out to any particular thing in my previous post that was "bolloney"[sic], or is just that you like to dispense gratuitous insults?

Quoting summa767 (Reply 198):
So to suggest that diverting some of these to Iberia will solve its problems is just ludicrous.

It would be indeed ludicrous. The problem is I never said that. So why putting words in my mouth?

Quoting summa767 (Reply 198):
The 330 is certainly a current aircraft.

The A330 is a current aircraft, superseded a couple of years ago by the 787. The 787, which BA is receiving now, is considerably more efficient than the A330, which IB is receiving now. These are facts. There might be good reasons (availability, or lack thereof, commonality) for this, but please do not argue with the facts. It makes you look desperate.

On the other hand, the 77W is a current aircraft that may be superseded ca. 2018 by the A350-1000.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos