http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en...information/delta-partnership.html

&

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...s/virgin-atlantic-partnership.html

Basically now that the share purchase has gone through they have announced their reciprocal FF partnership and codeshares... and also the combined codeshare network.



All comes into effect within the next week so pretty quick and must have been alot of work going on in the background to get it all up and running so quick after the share purchase approval was given.

I guess the next step now is the JV which will allow schedule co operation etc.

The potential synergies on TATL are obvious & this looks pretty comprehensive

However are there any VS destinations south / east of LHR which DL doesn't serve already that might enhance the partnership or doesn't it go that far?

Thinking of DEL/BOM/CPT/LAG/ACC etc? obviously (I assume) TPAC on DL covers east Asia and Aus

I noticed on the combined route map that OMA is missing. Hope this was just an error on their part.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 2): I noticed on the combined route map that OMA is missing.

There isn't an OMA-JFK flight, so it's logical it wouldn't be on the map, I'd think.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 1): Thinking of DEL/BOM/CPT/LAG/ACC etc? obviously (I assume) TPAC on DL covers east Asia and Aus

DL serves all of those either itself (BOM, LOS, ACC) or via its Skyteam partners (DEL, CPT) so I don't think there is really any need to expand this partnership beyond US/UK.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): DL serves all of those either itself (BOM, LOS, ACC) or via its Skyteam partners (DEL, CPT) so I don't think there is really any need to expand this partnership beyond US/UK.

No codeshares but if it is a VS or DL flight number you can still earn/redeem in the respective FF programs.

This MCO based DL flyer is very excited about earning DL MQM on non stop flights to London from Orlando. This will also give us more 1-stop routes to certain SE Asia destinations using skyteam partners, albeit at reduced rates.

For example, if I wanted to book a MCO-HAN flight on DL.COM, I would get a ridiculous fare of close to $5k for ?Y. Now I can book MCO-LGW on VS, earning 100%, and LGW-HAN on VN, earning 50% for probably around $1500.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 6): For example, if I wanted to book a MCO-HAN flight on DL.COM, I would get a ridiculous fare of close to $5k for ?Y. Now I can book MCO-LGW on VS, earning 100%, and LGW-HAN on VN, earning 50% for probably around $1500.

Interesting idea. ITA Software certainly didn't find any bargains as a single ticket in the month I looked. Forcing non-stops MCL-LGW + LGW-HAN, the cheapest ticket found for a 7-9 day stay was $5800+. That was a BA+VN ticket, actually.

To what degree will DL have to align products to avoid cannibalization?

- BusinessElite vs Upper Class
- Economy Comfort vs Premium Economy
- Sky Club vs Clubhouse
- Get to the airport on your own vs sedan service

Seems like HVCs and premium customers might lean towards VS.

Well imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Once again VS follows in the footsteps of its nemesis.

All they need do now to complete the hypocrisy is join an alliance.

That said.........can't deny it makes sense.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 7): Interesting idea. ITA Software certainly didn't find any bargains as a single ticket in the month I looked. Forcing non-stops MCL-LGW + LGW-HAN, the cheapest ticket found for a 7-9 day stay was $5800+. That was a BA+VN ticket, actually.

I was searching using Kayak in November. LGW-HAN is $900, and I assumed MCO-LGW would be around $700-$800 just based on past fare sales. A non-stop right now shows $1200 on VS in November.

Will Virgin Atlantic fly to Atlanta and give connecting passengers an opportunity to fly them to LHR ? That should be part of the plan. Why should Delta 764ER's. as nice as they are, be the only planes from DL's biggest hub to LHR. IF Delta and Virgin really wanted they could fill an A380 from Atlanta to LHR daily.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11): Will Virgin Atlantic fly to Atlanta and give connecting passengers an opportunity to fly them to LHR ? That should be part of the plan. Why should Delta 764ER's. as nice as they are, be the only planes from DL's biggest hub to LHR. IF Delta and Virgin really wanted they could fill an A380 from Atlanta to LHR daily.

Right now, I thought this was mostly about JFK-LHR.

Quoting questions (Reply 8): BusinessElite vs Upper Class

Many would argue that BusinessElite is the better product (on the 764s, some of the 763s, the 777s, and the 744s).

The real differences is between the Clubhouses JFK/BOS and SkyClubs JFK/BOS; less of a difference (but still one) between Skyteam lounge LHR and the LHR Clubhouse.

Quoting questions (Reply 8): Seems like HVCs and premium customers might lean towards VS.

I would imagine VS's premium cabins are already pretty full ? They are not a big airline.

They will need to increase capacity or frequency somehow if they are to capitalize ?

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 13): Many would argue that BusinessElite is the better product (on the 764s, some of the 763s, the 777s, and the 744s). The real differences is between the Clubhouses JFK/BOS and SkyClubs JFK/BOS; less of a difference (but still one) between Skyteam lounge LHR and the LHR Clubhouse.

Seriously? Have you been to the LHR Clubhouse? There is a huge gulf in difference. And even more of a gulf when you include the Upper Class Wing at LHR into the experience.

Not sure how you get that BE is also a better product than UCS? Each to their own I guess.

[Edited 2013-06-24 11:22:45]

Quoting willd (Reply 15): Not sure how you get that BE is also a better product than UCS? Each to their own I guess.

From dining to seating (the types I mentioned in my previous post), they are pretty much equal. Some might say onboard service at Delta is somewhat better. With regards to turn-down service, VS clearly wins. I'd say its a wash.

Regarding the LHR Clubhouse, the SkyTeam lounge has a better spa. Though no sit down dining, the hot/cold buffet is substantial. While it might not have the "glitz" of the Clubhouse, it's not like it's an average SkyClub.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 6): This MCO based DL flyer is very excited about earning DL MQM on non stop flights to London from Orlando. This will also give us more 1-stop routes to certain SE Asia destinations using skyteam partners, albeit at reduced rates. For example, if I wanted to book a MCO-HAN flight on DL.COM, I would get a ridiculous fare of close to $5k for ?Y. Now I can book MCO-LGW on VS, earning 100%, and LGW-HAN on VN, earning 50% for probably around $1500.

We still are not clear on MQD status, however. They may earn you the points but they will be useless if you dont have the spend to go along with them.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 17): We still are not clear on MQD status, however. They may earn you the points but they will be useless if you dont have the spend to go along with them.

That will be the case for most, but I pass the AmEx spend requirement due to a small business.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9): All they need do now to complete the hypocrisy is join an alliance.

Here he is again...every VS thread gets this guy with his anti-VS'ism.

Who are you? What do you do? What job at VS did you apply for that you didn't get?

After talking to someone very high up in their organisation, I very much doubt they will join an alliance and for very good reason.

Well the new codeshare says it all:

- dep. MSP 21:45 - arr. LHR 12:05 DL040 non-stop - Delta Air Lines
- dep. MSP 21:45 - arr. LHR 12:05 KL6000 non-stop - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
- dep. MSP 21.45 - arr. LHR 12.05 AF3669 non-stop - Air France
- dep. MSP 21.45 - arr. LHR 12.05 VSxxx non-stop - Virgin Atlantic

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 16): From dining to seating (the types I mentioned in my previous post), they are pretty much equal. Some might say onboard service at Delta is somewhat better. With regards to turn-down service, VS clearly wins. I'd say its a wash. Regarding the LHR Clubhouse, the SkyTeam lounge has a better spa. Though no sit down dining, the hot/cold buffet is substantial. While it might not have the "glitz" of the Clubhouse, it's not like it's an average SkyClub.

Ha ha ha ha ha, best one liner (ish) I've read on ANet in years. Why anyone in their right mind would choose DL over VS on a good day is a bizarre thought to me. T4 has the better spa, LOLZ. You must work for DL or a supplier.

Back on topic, this is better news for VS FFs than DL fliers, earning on DL flights, elite benefits, and when DL fliers realise that you'll have to pay $1,000 plus for a miles seat in Upper Class then I see no reason to fear for VS redemption seats being snapped up. The only downer currently is that at JFK T4 I fear being inundated with badly dressed Medallions in the VS Clubhouse (joke).

Quoting questions (Reply 8): To what degree will DL have to align products to avoid cannibalization? - BusinessElite vs Upper Class - Economy Comfort vs Premium Economy

I emailed Delta last week asking if they were going to align EC with the virgin premium economy. Answer was they were unaware of, or had any plans to, align any onboard services at this time. So I guess each airline to their own. I'm wondering how to book VS premium economy on the DL website, as that is not usually an option, even when booking a AF flight on DL.com.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 21): I fear being inundated with badly dressed Medallions in the VS Clubhouse (joke).

I'll make sure the t-shirt I'm wearing is pressed and color coordinated to my flip flops. It depends on what time of year if I'll be wearing cargo shorts or jeans with that.

What I found interesting at first was the lack of connections beyond ATL, except to the Northeast.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 22): Answer was they were unaware of, or had any plans to, align any onboard services at this time.

The sad reality of codeshares between US and International carriers.

Quoting phunc (Reply 19): After talking to someone very high up in their organisation, I very much doubt they will join an alliance and for very good reason.

While I might agree, "I very much doubt" seems to be a challenge to airlines, especially in the past few years.

I guess the million dollar question is if this will help turn VS towards profitability. DL no doubt has invested a lot in the deal, I hope to see it pay off. DL has made some good decisions of late since the NW+DL merger, hope this is another

Quoting phunc (Reply 19): Here he is again...every VS thread gets this guy with his anti-VS'ism. Who are you? What do you do? What job at VS did you apply for that you didn't get? After talking to someone very high up in their organisation, I very much doubt they will join an alliance and for very good reason.

I'm sorry but I am an aviation enthusiast. Don't expect me to sing the praises of an airline that for years has campaigned to try and keep British aviation at LHR in some kind of retarded backward state compared to the rest of the world. Just to try and protect its own broken business model.

That would be bad enough but to then go and do exactly the things they were campaigning against through desperation leaves me void of any respect.

That said I know there are a lot of people that work very hard at VS and for that reason I wish the venture luck. Although it is beyond me quite what this brings to the DL table apart from a one off relative modest increase in exposure to LHR on the JFK route. For the money they paid though that is enough of a reason I guess.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 26): I'm sorry but I am an aviation enthusiast.

Well then appreciate the airline with the over the top service, awesome lounges, and quad-jets. (And a good safety record to boot.)

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 26): Although it is beyond me quite what this brings to the DL table

DL seems to love European carriers. With KL and AF already extensively codeshared, and Skyteam having a pretty good range of airlines in Europe, the UK was the logical next step. DL benefits in that VS passengers don't just want to end in ORD, JFK, BOS, etc. Notice the wide range of DL-operated routes from those locales that VS is codesharing on.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 24): The sad reality of codeshares between US and International carriers.

The old paradigm of "USA carrier bad, foreign carrier good" is largely outmoded in longhaul flying these days, especially on TATL flying where USA carriers have been far more aggressive in updating the hard product than their European counterparts (the Brits and Swiss excepted).

Gimme a United flat bed over a Luthansa slanted seat in Business Class any day of the week.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 28): The old paradigm of "USA carrier bad, foreign carrier good" is largely outmoded in longhaul flying these days, especially on TATL flying where USA carriers have been far more aggressive in updating the hard product than their European counterparts (the Brits and Swiss excepted). Gimme a United flat bed over a Luthansa slanted seat in Business Class any day of the week.

That's interesting. I flew AA 5 years ago and swore never again, and I haven't! However I have heard better things about DL of late.

I wonder if a lot of VS frequent fliers will switch to Skymiles over Flying Club.

Will VS physically move gates at certain airports to be near DL? I.E. like at LAX from T2 to T5?

So will I earn Skymiles and MQM miles if I fly LAX-LHR-BOM on VS?

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 31): Will VS physically move gates at certain airports to be near DL? I.E. like at LAX from T2 to T5?

I asked this about LHR in particular and the consensus is that DL may end up in T3 there as a result of this, despite BAA wanting to make T4 the Skyteam terminal after the Queens Terminal is finished. The plan was to be that T2/Queens terminal would go to Star, T3 would be One World, T4 would be Skyteam, and T5 would be British Airways. I am not sure what this will do for that. The issue in LHR would be the clubs and with VS invested heavily in the T3 facility, DL may end up there too.

Stateside I can look at a few airports to get an idea. At JFK, both airlines are in T4, so nothing happens there. Ditto at EWR where both airlines are in B. At BOS, VS is currently in E, and DL in A, and I don't suspect that will change at all as Massport is not keen on foreign carriers using other terminals for departures after investing much money into E. At ORD, the DL gates at T2 on Concourse E aren't widebody capable, and DL is already using T5 to depart an existing CDG flight, so I don't think anything happens there. In IAD, both carriers have a small presence, so nothing happens there. VS does not currently serve either DTW or MSP, but they could easily use existing DL facilities in both places. At MCO, both carriers are on Airside 4, so nothing happens there. In MIA, DL uses the H gates, and VS currently the E gates, although both are FIS capable, and with the airport being common use, VS could be moved to H or J. I am not sure how they want to do alliances in MIA in the future. In LAS, DL uses the D gates and VS by necessity is on the E gates. I don't think there will be any gate changes, or ticketing changes, but connections in LAS if they were offered, would not be hard. In SFO...DL runs an NRT flight out of the A side of the IAB, which is where VS already is, and that really can't be moved, so nothing happens there. If ATL is started on the VS, it will likely be a Terminal F departure, which is pretty simple with ATL infastructure already.

Which means that the only airport aside from MIA where any movement is even remotely possible would be LAX. However....most of the other SkyTeam airlines are in either T2 or the TBIT there, and T5 does not have access to the customs hall IIRC. If VS were to move, it would likely be to T6, not T5. I don't see this happening here.

Bottom line...to answer your question, there will be very little movement from VS on the US site in terms of terminals. The only place you are likely to see movement is at LHR, (and possibly MIA) and people on here think it will DL moving from T4 to T3, despite BAA wanting T4 to be a Skyteam facility.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 22): I emailed Delta last week asking if they were going to align EC with the virgin premium economy. Answer was they were unaware of, or had any plans to, align any onboard services at this time.

They've never bothered to align with AF, why would they do it now?

Does anyone know if they plan to have VS operate at ORD year round or will it remain seasonal?

Quoting kordcj (Reply 35): Does anyone know if they plan to have VS operate at ORD year round or will it remain seasonal?

Seasonal with DL codeshares connecting via JFK for the winter I guess.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): Thinking of DEL/BOM/CPT/LAG/ACC etc? obviously (I assume) TPAC on DL covers east Asia and AusDL serves all of those either itself (BOM, LOS, ACC) or via its Skyteam partners (DEL, CPT) so I don't think there is really any need to expand this partnership beyond US/UK.

But DL have invested ?$300m+ in VS, so which comes first? - Skyteam or its investment in VS, both of which could effect DL bottom line in different ways.

Thinking about it you could say the same thing about the TATL routes. If say DL directs traffic from say eastern Europe to USA via CDG or AMS on Skyteam, it could be argued that in so doing its devaluing its investment in VS (always assuming that VS over LHR offers a like connection / service).

I think the VS deal is all about LHR, I don't see DL building many connections through LHR, those will be made through CDG and AMS.

The other thought that comes to mind is the VS order for A380's

DL is in a minority & would probably be against the purchase; but is this partnership might actually give the combination the critical mass needed to operate such an aircraft

One thing I keep thinking about regarding the comments on the superiority of Virgin Atlantic versus Delta is that with the financial performance of Virgin Atlantic, they've not been able to get their customers to adequately cover the expense of that superior experience.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 34): They've never bothered to align with AF, why would they do it now?

Because DL owns basically half of VS, whereas AF is just a partnership.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 39): The other thought that comes to mind is the VS order for A380's DL is in a minority & would probably be against the purchase; but is this partnership might actually give the combination the critical mass needed to operate such an aircraft

I can see VS using high density A380's to ATL, MCO, and MIA, where frequency isn't that important.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 28): USA carrier bad, foreign carrier good

True. But in this case we are talking about the Brits. Plus, that stereotype still exists, even if it is less truthful now. And many carriers still have slightly better service. Though these days, its the south Asian/Middle Eastern carriers that are the ones to beat for F class.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 42): I can see VS using high density A380's to ATL, MCO, and MIA,

I don't know if both MCO and MIA can support it. One definitely, two maybe. Look at the number of flights already, and a lot of those are on quad-jets. Maybe a seasonal upgrade for MCO? ATL might not get the A380. I think DL uses mostly 76Xs on the route (their JFK hub covers a lot of the LON-US traffic), and VS doesn't even fly to ATL right now, so I'm thinking no A380. However, if the A380s free up smaller planes, I wouldn't be that surprised to see a daily flight on VS metal to ATL.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 42): I can see VS using high density A380's to ATL, MCO, and MIA, where frequency isn't that important.

The problem hitherto, as we all know, is that an A380 has the best CASM in the sky above a certain per cent of bums on seats. VS can and does fly 5 x high density 747s into MCO during UK school holidays from LGW, MAN and GLA. However at other times of the year this could be just 2 x half full 747s or a 747 and an A333. Only VS knows whether its load factor across the year can sustain an A380 and until now the armchair CEO thinking has been not.

However does the DL partnership change things? Does DL have a large presence at MCO? I know AA is dominant at MIA and that doesn't sustain a 747 from VS year round so I doubt that'll be an A380 market ... are there other places such as SFO where VS could fill an A380 with DL connections?

DL owns almost 50% of VS, it has 744's but it doesn't go for high cost new builds, at least in its home market

Thinking out of the box here but is it inconceivable that VS/DL could do an RTW service even using VS 380's? or something smaller

Probably the TPAC services might need the aircraft registered in the US, but Braniff managed this with the Concorde before the days of computerization

Only dreaming, but is it really so impractical?

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 45): Thinking out of the box here but is it inconceivable that VS/DL could do an RTW service even using VS 380's? or something smaller

Would love to see it! I doubt they will...if they did with a 380 it would be as a world tour thingy for a little bit and then stop. If they did actually sustain RTW service then I would expect to see to it on a VS 340 or a 787-9 (when they enter service).

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 45): Only dreaming, but is it really so impractical?

From the perspective of a DL customer, is there anything that the RTW service would give me that I couldn't get from Skyteam already? LAX-Pacific Rim/East Asia would be an obvious RTW routing, but is there anything to gain from it?

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 44): However does the DL partnership change things? Does DL have a large presence at MCO? I

MCO used to be a "mini" hub/focus city for DL in 90s, but that changed after 9/11. MCO is one of the largest non-hub cities in DL's US network, based on enplanements and flights. The vast majority, > 90%, is on mainline equipment.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 46): but is there anything to gain from it?

Well DL/VS would beat PA in their RTW service and have a mega marketing tool, no one else would come close

If it was an A380 even better, think of the utilisation

Anything to gain? - Well nothing to lose all the routes would be established routes by one airline or the other.

Maybe DL could do the clockwise and VS the anticlockwise or whatever

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 48): Well nothing to lose

Except money, and an A380 that would be doing the circuit.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 48): have a mega marketing tool

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 48): If it was an A380 even better, think of the utilisation

True. It could work, but they would definitely have to pick the right cities. A380 is probably too much plane though. I wish they would run it, but I doubt it.
The question is, would it be more profitable for VS (and DL a bit) to run RTW or typical schedules with those planes?

Quoting mcogator (Reply 47): The vast majority, > 90%, is on mainline equipment.

And most go to connect in ATL. It is a huge city for DL, but I don't think its huge enough to warrant a VS 380.