VS/DL "Great Minds Fly Alike" Partnership Details

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 49):
Except money, and an A380 that would be doing the circuit.

Maybe an A380 might be too much on day one

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 49):
The question is, would it be more profitable for VS (and DL a bit) to run RTW or typical schedules with those planes?

Well if one airline did clockwise etc then the income stream is equal

DL does own almost 50% of VS so its not money down the drain, why give the income to an 'alliance partner'

DL isn't that well known outside the US, (yes we've heard of it, not much more) VS is a bit part player globally and what do EK want to do - fly TPAC, why!

It would propel them both into the mega league with comparisons to PA (& bettering them) in marketing terms

It could even be routed NYC/LAX and I'm sure it'd the flight of the day with one hell of a premium just to fly it

[Edited 2013-06-25 10:05:57]

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 50):
DL isn't that well known outside the US, (yes we've heard of it, not much more) VS is a bit part player globally

You'd be surprised how many people don't know about VS in the Americas. Now that VX is here its getting better, but still not great. DL and VS would have to prominently market the new RTW flight well.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 50):
It could even be routed NYC/LAX and I'm sure it'd the flight of the day with one hell of a premium just to fly it

Oh yes. But then why aren't there many widebodies doing that route anymore?

I think if they did it, it wouldn't start on a 380. And as far as RTW goes, they probably wouldn't make many stops. LOL, they should go through CTU just to annoy BA.

slinky09 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 48):
Well DL/VS would beat PA in their RTW service and have a mega marketing tool, no one else would come close

You can already do RTW on a Virgin branded aircraft: VS LHR-SYD, VA SYD-LAX, VS LAX-LHR.

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 51):
You'd be surprised how many people don't know about VS in the Americas. Now that VX is here its getting better, but still not great. DL and VS would have to prominently market the new RTW flight well.

Accepted VS isn't a global (or US) name either, but I'm talking existing routes, nothing new. Routes where DL/VS know the load factors / yield / costs etc

What is there to market ? it already exists! The marketing comes with the fact its a RTW flight DL or VS 1 or 2.
Hell of a marketing tool to raise both carriers profiles

Like the idea of CTU, though HKG or somewhere around there might be better

Why do EK want to do it?

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 52):
You can already do RTW on a Virgin branded aircraft: VS LHR-SYD, VA SYD-LAX, VS LAX-LHR.

Virgin America, VX, is NOT part of the codeshare. Its completely different, a DL competitor. The entire point is a DL/VS RTW.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 53):
Accepted VS isn't a global (or US) name either, but I'm talking existing routes, nothing new. Routes where DL/VS know the load factors / yield / costs etc

Good idea. Any idea how DL's LAX-SYD flight is doing?

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 53):
What is there to market ? it already exists! The marketing comes with the fact its a RTW flight DL or VS 1 or 2.

Hell of marketing tool, agreed. But as you said, its a hell of a marketing TOOL. They need to be strategic on marketing it still to get the best bang for the buck.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 53):
Like the idea of CTU, though HKG or somewhere around there might be better

CTU would be just to make BA mad. LAX-SYD-HKG could work for that part, or LAX-NRT-Any Asian place that VS serves (or for that matter all the way to LHR). Also, for a change of pace, SEA-NRT?

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 53):
Why do EK want to do it?

Did you seriously just say "Why" about EK? Their entire mission is to make people say "why"? :P

anstar · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 40):
they've not been able to get their customers to adequately cover the expense of that superior experience.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 54):
Virgin America, VX, is NOT part of the codeshare. Its completely different, a DL competitor. The entire point is a DL/VS RTW.

Who said anything about Virgin America (VX). Best you re- read slinky's post. He said you can already do a Virgin branded RTW currently with Virgin Atlantic & Virgin Australia.... so why would a Virgin/Delta RTW be all that special given you can already fly Virgin around the globe?

MIflyer12 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 47):
MCO used to be a "mini" hub/focus city for DL in 90s, but that changed after 9/11. MCO is one of the largest non-hub cities in DL's US network, based on enplanements and flights. The vast majority, > 90%, is on mainline equipment.

There's certainly plenty of flyers in MCO who know the Delta name. I don't know if bunches of them want to go to London in January, however!

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 55):
Virgin Australia.

Ahh! Sorry! But Virgin Australia isn't part of the DL codeshare anyways.

Quoting anstar (Reply 55):
Virgin/Delta RTW be all that special given you can already fly Virgin around the globe?

Virgin group is a group of affiliated airlines similar to a small alliance. You can fly alliances RTW. But DL opens up many more options to VS, and DL/VS is a different type of partnership. VS is now closer to DL than the other Virgin group airlines. A Virgin-branded RTW is different, in options, number of segments you could do, and very different from a business/income perspective.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 56):
I don't know if bunches of them want to go to London in January, however!

Well, if you could fly such a cool plane, why not?! :P

anstar · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 57):

Ahh! Sorry! But Virgin Australia isn't part of the DL codeshare anyways.

Virgin Australia have their own codeshares and indeed Joint Venture already in place with Delta.

mcogator · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 49):
It is a huge city for DL, but I don't think its huge enough to warrant a VS 380.

Two 744s daily within 90 minutes of each other during non-peak season. I would say that's enough to warrant a daily A380 to London.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 56):
I don't know if bunches of them want to go to London in January, however!

If the price is right, we'll go anywhere.

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 59):
Two 744s daily within 90 minutes of each other during non-peak season. I would say that's enough to warrant a daily A380 to London.

True. VS independently could easily decide to do it. Are the profits on that better than other potential 380 routes?

Quoting anstar (Reply 58):
Virgin Australia have their own codeshares and indeed Joint Venture already in place with Delta.

Forgot that! Thanks! It could work...Keep VA on as an option for the RTW...where would VA flights connect back into the service? Do they run any SYD-cities to the north/west served by DL/VS?

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 54):
Good idea. Any idea how DL's LAX-SYD flight is doing?

Haven't got a clue not something we'd know about in the ME

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 57):
Virgin group is a group of affiliated airlines similar to a small alliance. You can fly alliances RTW. But DL opens up many more options to VS, and DL/VS is a different type of partnership. VS is now closer to DL than the other Virgin group airlines. A Virgin-branded RTW is different, in options, number of segments you could do, and very different from a business/income perspective.

Why would it have to be Virgin branded? It could be joint, paint one side of the airliner DL and the other side VS, just as BA & SQ did on the Concorde in the ?mid 80's

Trying to think of an airline ownership structure that is across continents (or so geographically spaced). EY have an interest in a number of countries but its all about connecting / feed through AUH. LATAM in South America same sort of thing.

Cant think of a parallel

What about Shanghai as an eastern asia point

Motorhussy · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 54):

Virgin America, VX, is NOT part of the codeshare. Its completely different, a DL competitor. The entire point is a DL/VS RTW.

Think you may find that slinky09 was referring to Virgin Australia - VA.

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 61):
Why would it have to be Virgin branded? It could be joint, paint one side of the airliner DL and the other side VS, just as BA & SQ did on the Concorde in the ?mid 80's

I don't think it has to be Virgin Branded.
Who's metal are you going to paint? (Plus up/down gauges are much more interesting if you have a half and half plane).

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 61):
What about Shanghai as an eastern asia point

To get there via DL you'd have to come from DTW, SEA, or NRT. Not horrible, but you'd end up with a SEA-PVG-LHR routing. There's 3/4 of the earth in 2 flights.

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 63):
I don't think it has to be Virgin Branded. Who's metal are you going to paint? (Plus up/down gauges are much more interesting if you have a half and half plane).

DL metal clockwise, VS metal anti clockwise or the other way around

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 63):
To get there via DL you'd have to come from DTW, SEA, or NRT. Not horrible, but you'd end up with a SEA-PVG-LHR routing. There's 3/4 of the earth in 2 flights.

Ok not the best idea, what about HKG

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 64):
Ok not the best idea, what about HKG

You would be routed SYD/NRT-HKG-LHR. DL's little NRT Asian hub plus their significant presence in SEA and LAX makes for interesting Pacific route maps. VS stops in HKG on the LHR-SYD flight, and flies HKG-LHR and PVG-LHR.

Alternatively (and this could work for PVG too), a stop between Asia and London could be instituted. Without that, the routing would be something like LHR-JFK-LAX-SYD-HKG-LHR and vice versa.

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 65):
PVG

Sounds like the answer then

Off to bed to dream about it! Doubt it will ever actually happen

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 66):
Off to bed to dream about it! Doubt it will ever actually happen

Haha good night! And hope that one day the VS/DL RTW will be a reality! LHR-JFK-LAX-NRT-PVG-Stop-LHR. I like it.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 44):
The problem hitherto, as we all know, is that an A380 has the best CASM in the sky above a certain per cent of bums on seats.

Not sure if its worth putting it on the MCO route, or saving it for other higher-yielding routes.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 41):
Because DL owns basically half of VS, whereas AF is just a partnership.

And thus, DL is much more closely tied with the money side of things for VS.

Will all the DL-AF-KL check in signs now have a VS logo on them too?

anstar · Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 67):
Will all the DL-AF-KL check in signs now have a VS logo on them too?

Hahaha add to that Alitalia in some ports as well!

TC957 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:00 pm

Maybe BA and AA will paint " no way DL / VS " on their aircraft.....

UA787DEN · Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 68):
Hahaha add to that Alitalia in some ports as well!

True! Not so much in the US, but definitely throughout the world.
DL-AZ-AF-KL-VS. Not a bad sign! But is there enough room behind/above the check-in desks?

As far as SkyTeam integration goes, VS says not for now:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...xes-skyteam-talk--for-now/2452153/

Quoting TC957 (Reply 69):
Maybe BA and AA will paint " no way DL / VS " on their aircraft.....

That would be great!

apodino · Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:40 pm

One question I did have...might DL ground handle VS in some US Airports? Obviously they wont in BOS, but in other places where they are in the same terminal, such as EWR, JFK, MCO, etc....would it be economical to have DL serve as a ground handling agent....which in theory would save costs?

alfa164 · Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 64):
Ok not the best idea, what about HKG

How about SEA-NRT-BKK-BOM-AMS-JFK-SEA for DL, and LHR-BKK-SYD-LAX-LHR for VS?

All those cities (save BOM, for now) seem to have heavy loads; that would be desirable, as a RTW flight probably couldn't sustain itself with flyers just wanting to travel around the world. It would also offer each airline routes that include one city in common, and the rest to complementary differing points.

And I love the idea of a plane painted with each airline's livery on different sides!

boysteve · Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:17 pm

Will VS continue with EWR? If they move flights to JFK then that would be 9 flights per day combined with DL on JFK-LHR which is some serious competition to AA/BA. Or they could consolidate on A346/B744 to just 8 flights which is still a good schedule and free up an LHR slot for a new destination, SEA? PEK? I am sure AF pulled EWR, maybe PHL could be started instead?

apodino · Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 73):
Will VS continue with EWR? If they move flights to JFK then that would be 9 flights per day combined with DL on JFK-LHR which is some serious competition to AA/BA. Or they could consolidate on A346/B744 to just 8 flights which is still a good schedule and free up an LHR slot for a new destination, SEA? PEK? I am sure AF pulled EWR, maybe PHL could be started instead?

There is enough demand for EWR that I don't see this facing the wrecking ball, and I do think it will remain on VS metal. AF pulled EWR, but it was replaced by DL metal, so they aren't out of EWR completely. DL has made it clear they want to be number 1 in NYC, and they also know that UA is not likely to add any transatlantic flights to JFK, so even though EWR is their least important NYC airport, by maintaining this presence in EWR they are basically giving their customers more options than UA.

FlyCaledonian · Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 73):
Will VS continue with EWR?

DL+VS will have 7 flights a day on LHR-JFK, which whilst not up there with the BA+AA "shuttle", at least lets them compete in the LON-NYC market against oneworld and Star with a decent number of frequencies. As to LHR-EWR, maintaining a presence will be a good move (just like BA does), but as others have said it might be that we see DL operating 2x 763 on the flights, with VS aircraft deployed elsehwere to boost capacity (DTW? MSP?). A metal neutral alliance lets DL+VS find the right-sized aircraft for each market they share, including seasonal variances.

panamair · Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 22):
I'm wondering how to book VS premium economy on the DL website, as that is not usually an option, even when booking a AF flight on DL.com.

DL already sells Premium Economy on AF metal flights between the U.S. and CDG on delta.com, so it should be no different when it comes to VS. On delta.com, choose "Fare Class" of "Premium Economy (W or higher)" in the dropdown, and it will offer you the Premium Eco fare on the DL codeshares operated by AF.

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 73):
If they move flights to JFK then that would be 9 flights per day combined with DL on JFK-LHR which is some serious competition to AA/BA.

Even with the current combined 7 JFK-LHR flights, they will be able to offer quite a competitive schedule: 1 morning departure out of JFK and 6 evening ones. The 6 evening ones will pretty much allow them to offer hourly flights between 1800hrs and 2300hrs out of JFK....

1400mph · Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 69):
Maybe BA and AA will paint " no way DL / VS " on their aircraft.....

I don't think many would associate the V S pre-fix with Virgin Atlantic either side of the pond and I don't think they would associate the D L prefix with Delta over here. The JV really hasn't had that much coverage because of the lack of objections and Delta isn't well known to the UK public.

Mind you that said there isn't anything very 'virgin' about Virgin Atlantic anymore. They're really sucking the big one now after being half bought by the worlds largest carrier (not really the poor underdog now) after SQ kicked them out of bed for not 'performing' well enough.

mayor · Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 77):
Delta isn't well known to the UK public.

I would think, that, considering that DL has been flying their own routes to London since 1979 (and even before that with the Pan Am interchange), that they're more well known than you let on or even know. Certainly well enough to fill up the flights in both directions. Just my guess.

AeroWesty · Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:34 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 78):
I would think, that, considering that DL has been flying their own routes to London since 1979 (and even before that with the Pan Am interchange), that they're more well known than you let on or even know.

But is Delta known as Delta or DL? I think we both know the answer to that. AA and BA are well-known as monikers for American and British while VS for Virgin and DL for Delta would widely be considered more esoteric and known only within small circles of the population.

mayor · Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 79):
But is Delta known as Delta or DL? I think we both know the answer to that. AA and BA are well-known as monikers for American and British while VS for Virgin and DL for Delta would widely be considered more esoteric and known only within small circles of the population.

But THIS is the statement that was made:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 77):
Delta isn't well known to the UK public.

Not DL, but Delta

AeroWesty · Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 80):
Not DL, but Delta

It was part of the same paragraph as:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 77):
I don't think they would associate the D L prefix with Delta over here.

While I've no scientific evidence at hand, but seeing as Delta was a Gatwick airline for so many years, I would gather it has not traditionally been the best-known of the U.S. airlines. In addition, DL as a moniker for the airline is most likely virtually unknown in common usage in the UK.

deltal1011man · Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 33):

T4, T5 and T7 have FIS, T6 is connected to the T7 FIS(well its kinda in the middle)
So yes terminal 5 has FIS and was being used by VA

Having said that, it's hours are limited compared to TBIT and T2 and Delta really doesn't have the room for anyone at T5.

DTWLAX · Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:32 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 82):
Quoting apodino (Reply 33):

T4, T5 and T7 have FIS, T6 is connected to the T7 FIS(well its kinda in the middle)
So yes terminal 5 has FIS and was being used by VA

Having said that, it's hours are limited compared to TBIT and T2 and Delta really doesn't have the room for anyone at T5.

Correct. There is not much room at T5 even though it has FIS facilities.
Realistically, LHR-LAX is a O&D route with not a lot of connections. So VS will probably stay put in T2.
Skyteam is really spread out at LAX with T2, T5 and TBIT operations.

mayor · Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 81):
seeing as Delta was a Gatwick airline for so many years,

As were some other U.S. carriers.

Also, there were several years (as I mentioned before) where DL metal flew into LHR (DC-8 & 747) on the Pan Am interchange......that was before the ATL-LGW service.

A friend of mine, who now works for TAP, was a marketing rep for DL out of the London office. I'll try and contact him and ask him, how well DL was known within the U.K. as I'm rather curious myself, now that it has been brought up.

slinky09 · Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 74):
There is enough demand for EWR that I don't see this facing the wrecking ball, and I do think it will remain on VS metal.

I do not think, and hope so, that VS will switch EWR flying to DL - these two flights are very popular with VS frequent fliers, aside from which, the VS001/2 was the very first VS flight back in 1984 (albeit from Gatwick).

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 77):
Mind you that said there isn't anything very 'virgin' about Virgin Atlantic anymore.

A DL 49% stake is important, but gives DL no control. There may be two DL folk on the VS board but it is very much 'Virgin' as it always was. I'll let you know if anything changes later since I'll be out drinking tonight with some Virgin folk ...

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 77):
SQ kicked them out of bed for not 'performing' well enough.

There's no doubt VS didn't perform for SQ, but to be balanced you have to look at SQ's behaviour themselves, apart from a bit of codesharing did SQ ever try to allign its scheduled, offer VS frequent fliers the ability to redeem miles in F, or actually make an effort toward some sort of benefits?

cokepopper · Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:44 pm

I believe the equip swap on LHR-EWR-LHR is all but a done deal.
Look for Delta's EWR operations to include AMS/CDG/LHR and possibly FCO next year.
yes, a small, but great alternative to UA. SkyTeam will be well represented on both sides
of the Hudson.

MIflyer12 · Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 85):
A DL 49% stake is important, but gives DL no control. There may be two DL folk on the VS board but it is very much 'Virgin' as it always was.

'Virgin as it always was' doesn't work. Delta is not going to sit passively and eat 49% of VS' losses. Corrective actions will come in months, not years.

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