Latest news say that Iberia has decided to hand over all Madrid-UK flights to British Airways, as well as some North American routes to American. Link, only in Spanish:

http://www.preferente.com/noticias-d...e-espana-y-reino-unido-240032.html

The article also says that negotiations between pilots union and MGMT has been broken, so new strikes are probable unfortunately.

The claim is made by the unions which, the article says, is denied by management.

Iberia have 8 flights a day to LHR, would they have the metalwork to do this, assume it would require an extra 4 frames, unless they want to decrease frequency (& increase size), and use the slots elsewhere.

What has been denied by the management is that every flight between UK and Spain will be operated by BA:
"Asistentes a la reunión entre la dirección de Iberia y los sindicatos han detallado que la cesión de vuelos a British afectará no solo a los Madrid-Londres, sino a todos los vuelos que se operan desde otros aeropuertos de España hacia la capital inglesa. Fuentes oficiales de la compañía han negado este extremo a un diario económico."

As the article says, what has been announced by the company is that every MAD-LHR flight will be operated by BA. Anyway, the post is wrong because I wrote every UK-Spain flights and what is true for the moment is every MAD-LHR, sorry for that.

[Edited 2013-06-25 01:24:39]

I doubt it will happen. Aside from the sensitivity, you would lose the efficiency from eliminating night-stops in Madrid for BA.

Not going to happen. Totally ridiculous claim. More paranoid rumour-mongering from deluded Iberia employees who have decided to blame BA for all their woes, insisting that IAG / BA are nicking all IB's profitable (I know) units for themselves. Shameful. This is also why BA aren't sending the A380 to MAD on training flights (was the original plan) for fear of what absurd conclusions IB staff might come to when they see a BA whale turn up.

Would be a logical move to improve service quality on this major feeder route to LHR.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):

The article says:
Iberia ha anunciado a los sindicatos este lunes que en unos meses dejará de operar los vuelos entre España y Reino Unido para cedérselos a British Airways, de igual forma que hará con American Airlines para ciertas rutas a Estados Unidos

Which can be translated as:

Iberia annouced to unions this Monday that in a few months it will cease to operate the flights between Spain and the UK in order to transfer them to British Airways, the same will be done with American Airlines for certain routes to the United States

It's what the article says, maybe it's not true, we'll have to see what finally turns out.

Quoting giblets (Reply 2): Iberia have 8 flights a day to LHR, would they have the metalwork to do this, assume it would require an extra 4 frames, unless they want to decrease frequency (& increase size), and use the slots elsewhere.

Its not a long flight, so three extra frames should cover it easily. Not only are BA just starting to take delivery of a batch of new A320's, but should also have spare short haul capacity after the transfer of some UK domestic flights to VS. VS are leasing three planes from EI to run the transferred routes, logically this means that BA must have three planes spare.

This move if true would provide consistency on the route, BA compared to IB might be an improvement to some passengers, on the other hand it might not, but at least anyone booking an IAG flight LHR - MAD would know what to expect.

I really don´t know what IAG Iberia would like to be. Before the merger with BA it was a proud and sound company.

What about an option to make Vueling the regional and low cost unit of IB. This will ensure that the longhaul flights will be secured.

Quoting giblets (Reply 2): Iberia have 8 flights a day to LHR, would they have the metalwork to do this, assume it would require an extra 4 frames, unless they want to decrease frequency (& increase size), and use the slots elsewhere.

See it realistic - IB will sell their LHR-slots for    to reduce the losses. In return BA will upgrade their equipment to MAD (like to Moscow) to B767, maybe B777 during peak seasons. Revenue will be shared, because it will stay within the IAG-family. All happy (except the pilot union).

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): I really don´t know what IAG Iberia would like to be. Before the merger with BA it was a proud and sound company.

I agree. They are damaging employees mood, I don't know how the mgmt expect them to offer a good service in these conditions.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): What about an option to make Vueling the regional and low cost unit of IB

Iberia wants, but the pilots union are preventing that.

Quoting debonair (Reply 10): See it realistic - IB will sell their LHR-slots for    to reduce the losses.

Yeah, but they will loose the income associated to the route, which probably is profitable, that will imply Iberia's losses to get larger.

[Edited 2013-06-25 02:34:27]

Please don't give any credence to Preferente. It is, like some other "news outlets" of its kind, totally lacking any rigour. Furthermore, it has been a gossip bearer and general stirrer for Iberia's main pilot union.

The fact that they sensationalistically say that "not only will BA take over flights from Madrid to London, but also flights from other spanish airports to the English capital". Well, Iberia aoperates none of those!
I mean, BA can make flights from City and LGW to the spanish Med work. I doubt that IB could. They also don't have bases outside MAD -and that was the case well before IAG was created.

If IAG does decide to have BA operate al of its LHR-MAD flights by BA, it would be as a result of all the complaints about passengers on a BA ticket finding themselves, as they would put it "in a low cost airline": In a densely configured airplane, where they would even have to pay for water. BA flights to MAD also have the advantage of operating in T4S, and so much easier for IB long haul connections.

On the other hand, it would mean more cost in that BA would have to overnight in MAD, whereas they don't currently do it, as IB operates the first 2 flights of the day to LHR -as well as other 6.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5): Totally ridiculous claim. More paranoid rumour-mongering from deluded Iberia employees who have decided to blame BA for all their woes

It's an article on a respected trade journal. But I guess you know more about that, and feel entitled to insult IB's employees, as usual.

I remember when IB milked and destroyed AR and VA. what goes around comes around....

Quoting UALWN (Reply 13): It's an article on a respected trade journal. But I guess you know more about that, and feel entitled to insult IB's employees, as usual.

I do know better. So should you. Why would IB abandon the biggest city in Europe and the world's busiest international airport? Tell you what, you let me know when it happens and then we can judge the source.

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):

But if Ib don't have any costs associated with operating the route but still get the feed and some revenue then it should be a net positive for them

Have either IAG or IB made any comment on this.

What about the IB Unions.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 15): I do know better. So should you. Why would IB abandon the biggest city in Europe and the world's busiest international airport?

It (IAG) wouldn't be abandoning LHR - or LHR-MAD - it would just be transferring the operating airline from one IAG airline to another. All flights would still carry BA/IB flight numbers, all revenues/profits/slots would remain in IAG.

It is what businesses around the world do every day: (re-)configure themselves operate more efficiently and effectively.

It's now also reported by El Mundo:
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/06/25/economia/1372147927.html

If my Spanish skills are correct, it reads that IAG intends to change the terms agreed on in the IB/BA merger contract. Also with respect to Vueling, this contract establishes IB as the only airline to operate flights of six hours or longer out of MAD, as well as 50 percent of the services on the MAD-LHR route.

El Mundo only reports unspecified changes to this agreement, though. It cannot be used as a reference that IB would completely cease to serve LHR.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): proud and sound company.

Where did that come from? Proud? Maybe, but most certainly not sound. Only reason that they where 'proud' was because they where still running it like a state-owned company... and the mentality still exists.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 8): Its not a long flight, so three extra frames should cover it easily. Not only are BA just starting to take delivery of a batch of new A320's, but should also have spare short haul capacity after the transfer of some UK domestic flights to VS. VS are leasing three planes from EI to run the transferred routes, logically this means that BA must have three planes spare.

But BA haven't transferred UK domestic flights to VS. When BA took over BD, they were required to release 12 pairs of daily LHR slots to other airlines by the competition authorities. These slots had to be used on flights to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Nice, Riyadh, Cairo, or Moscow, the routes where BA and BD had competed. VS won the competition and opted to use all the slots for EDI and ABZ (because they couldn't get route authority for MOW under the bilateral). VS flights to MAN came from their existing slots - ones they had leased out.
In the same way BD didn't use all their slots themselves either and had leased some to other airlines, and BA has reclaimed these, so there isn't a net reduction of 12 round-trip flights on BA+BD domestics from LHR.
Also BA didn't get all the airframes BD had used on domestic routes because BD were using their Regional E145s on some LHR domestic departures. These passed to the new BMIr and are no longer seen at LHR.

BD's own Airbus fleet was specified for loose-loading only, and LHR T5 is designed for containerised baggage only, so they are unsuited to be redeployed to LHR-MAD even if BA wanted to.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12): Please don't give any credence to Preferente. It is, like some other "news outlets" of its kind, totally lacking any rigour.

Agree. The source is not credible. In any case, it can reasonably be assumed that mgmt may have threatened with such a move during the ongoing dispute with the pilots. And as has been seen with the pull-out from TXL, AMS and such, mgmt is ready to go through with its threats if needed, so it's not in the realm of the impossible.

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 21): But BA haven't transferred UK domestic flights to VS. When BA took over BD, they were required to release 12 pairs of daily LHR slots to other airlines by the competition authorities. These slots had to be used on flights to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Nice, Riyadh, Cairo, or Moscow, the routes where BA and BD had competed. VS won the competition and opted to use all the slots for EDI and ABZ (because they couldn't get route authority for MOW under the bilateral). VS flights to MAN came from their existing slots - ones they had leased out. In the same way BD didn't use all their slots themselves either and had leased some to other airlines, and BA has reclaimed these, so there isn't a net reduction of 12 round-trip flights on BA+BD domestics from LHR. Also BA didn't get all the airframes BD had used on domestic routes because BD were using their Regional E145s on some LHR domestic departures. These passed to the new BMIr and are no longer seen at LHR. BD's own Airbus fleet was specified for loose-loading only, and LHR T5 is designed for containerised baggage only, so they are unsuited to be redeployed to LHR-MAD even if BA wanted to.

This is pure nit picking/incorrect, until the Summer schedule BA operated a number of slots for UK domestic flights that under the terms of the BA/BD merger had to be surrendered. These have now transferred to VS. Until that date BA did operate them, now VS do, there was a net reduction of 12 BA flights from that day, Heathrow statistics show it. The E145's never transferred to BA. Additionally at least one BD plane was wet leased to LH and then transferred back to BA.

As to the bulk loading, some BD planes were fitted for containers anyway. BA can use the bulk loaded planes on any routes operated from T1 or LGW.

Actually from a passenger's point of view this is a good thing. flying on BA is much better than Iberia. I used to fly often between Madrid and London and I would buy tickets on Iberia or BA's website (whichever was cheaper), but I would always make sure I chose the BA flights as they had much better service (frendier staff, more comfortable seats, free tea/coffee and meal). Iberia was like flying charter with unfriendly, indifferent service and poor quality food offered at an extorsionate price. If they start flying larger aircraft and can use the slots for some extra longhauls, that would be even better. Iberia have already been using the A340 ocassionally to London anyway. Perhaps BA could put some 747s on the route rather than parking them up all day, save on lease payments! I wonder actually if BA could solve some of it's capacity problems in general but reducing frequency and upgrading to widebodies, that way it would get more value out of its slots.

This is all getting ridiculous. As a major IAG shareholder (10)...

  

.....I don't care who does what as long as it makes money !!

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 15): Why would IB abandon the biggest city in Europe and the world's busiest international airport?

Because the IAG management (Walsh) would tell them so? As pointed out above, from an operational point of view, this wouldn't be so far fetched.

Since IB and BA are both owned by IAG, how does IAG benefit by not expanding both carriers.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27): Since IB and BA are both owned by IAG, how does IAG benefit by not expanding both carriers.

I don't know. Ask Walsh, because the truth is BA is expanding while IB is contracting. At the end, he wants the best for IAG as a whole, which doesn't necessarily need to be the best for IB.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27): Since IB and BA are both owned by IAG, how does IAG benefit by not expanding both carriers.

It would be hard to expand IB at the minute due to labour costs, hence not making profits. Until IAG can reduce the labour costs there will be very little investment in IB

Quoting UALWN (Reply 28): I don't know. Ask Walsh, because the truth is BA is expanding while IB is contracting.

Oh come on. BA have not expanded for years. If anything they shrunk and wisely so. To retreat, rebuild a game plan and ride out the economic storm. IB is having to do the same due to Spain's tanking economy. It's as simple as that.

If IB staff wish to continue burying their heads in the sand and strike, moan and sleepwalk into oblivion due a nostalgic rose tinted glance back at the recent past which was built upon a flawed debt supported European dream then so be it.

Expansion has been a long time coming at BA with incredibly conservative aircraft orders and route increases built upon drastically lower costs !

Quoting mfc (Thread starter): Iberia has decided to hand over all Madrid-UK flights to British Airways, as well as some North American routes to American. Link, only in Spanish:

No they haven't. This is false.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 1): The claim is made by the unions

  

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5): More paranoid rumour-mongering from deluded Iberia employees who have decided to blame BA for all their woes, insisting that IAG / BA are nicking all IB's profitable (I know) units for themselves. Shameful. This is also why BA aren't sending the A380 to MAD on training flights (was the original plan) for fear of what absurd conclusions IB staff might come to when they see a BA whale turn up.

Right on the money, and such a shame.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 6): Would be a logical move to improve service quality on this major feeder route to LHR.

There will come a tipping point where IAG sees the route become unprofitable, where it sees it losing market share on the route to competitors, where it sees cross connections to its other company, British Airways, decline, that IAG decide Annex 10 will require amending. Until then, I cannot see IAG intentionally causing discord against the entire Iberia workforce, when the issue presently is just one department. Doesn't it all ring bells and remind us of a similar situation not so long ago?

Quoting mfc (Reply 7): It's what the article says, maybe it's not true, we'll have to see what finally turns out.

If that is the case, the title of this thread is false and misleading. I suggest it is amended.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9): I really don´t know what IAG Iberia would like to be. Before the merger with BA it was a proud and sound company.

Just like El Preferente, Iberia languishes in the halcyon days of years ago, when the Iberian mainland was full of European holidaymakers, Iberia employed friends who employed family who then brought in their sons and daughters and they all happily worked towards their full pension, when the company enjoyed massive VFR business to the Americas and when Iberia had a stranglehold on those routes.

Rather than proud and sound, I'd categorise them as a creaking dinosaur, blissfully unaware of their impending extinction, refusing to accept the world has changed, that the VFR market is in decline, that essential routes like the Canaries can no longer demand € 1200 return fares between MAD and TFN, that full salary pensions and jobs for life are not a God given right and that the countries of South America once dominated by Iberia's own services have the right and ability to create competition with their own national carriers and fight for the business of that continent.

Quoting mfc (Reply 11): I agree. They are damaging employees mood, I don't know how the mgmt expect them to offer a good service in these conditions.

When a company is in need of the deep restructuring Iberia requires, many employees are going to be hurt, worried and quite probably furloughed.

When Spain runs such eye popping unemployment statistics, I understand Unions have a duty to preserve staffing levels and preserve conditions as best they can. However, they need to occasionally look out of the windows of their MAD offices and see the hurt going on throughout the country and realise Iberia is not immune to it.

I doubt it will ever be acknowledged by Sepla, but Mr Walsh is not the pirate or rat they make hime out to be. I actually believe he, as head of IAG, could be the one person to save Iberia and return it to its former, and very distant, glory.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12): Please don't give any credence to Preferente. It is, like some other "news outlets" of its kind, totally lacking any rigour. Furthermore, it has been a gossip bearer and general stirrer for Iberia's main pilot union.

Totally agree. Living in the past, mistily reminiscing over when Spanish hotels were full and Iberia owned the Americas. They can't accept things can and have changed and to survive, you must adapt.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 13): It's an article on a respected trade journal. But I guess you know more about that, and feel entitled to insult IB's employees, as usual.

Pfft, though I would expect you to jump to its defence.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 19): If my Spanish skills are correct, it reads that IAG intends to change the terms agreed on in the IB/BA merger contract.

According to Iberia Pilots and Sepla ONLY. El Mundo is offering no more evidential content than El Preferente, already identified as Sepla's mouthpiece.

I mentioned earlier the only instance upon which I believe IAG would try to make any amendment.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 22): Agree. The source is not credible. In any case, it can reasonably be assumed that mgmt may have threatened with such a move during the ongoing dispute with the pilots. And as has been seen with the pull-out from TXL, AMS and such, mgmt is ready to go through with its threats if needed, so it's not in the realm of the impossible.

I don't believe in this case IAG would make such a threat. It would be a play directly in to the hands of the Union, and Mr Walsh knows better than to do anything so foolhardy.

I doubt very much that there will be any refute from WW to this Union claim. Iberia's pilots and Union should know by now that Mr Walsh deals in fact, reality and the present. If they spent a moment reviewing his behaviour during the BASSA dispute, he rarely, if ever, engaged in responding to comments from the other side when they were nothing more than lies, spin and intentional disruption. He isn't about to change that habit.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 26): Because the IAG management (Walsh) would tell them so? As pointed out above, from an operational point of view, this wouldn't be so far fetched.

Of course it would. Your antithesis towards anything positive to do with British Airways is well documented on here and your opinions and claims have oft been disproved.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27): Since IB and BA are both owned by IAG, how does IAG benefit by not expanding both carriers.

British Airways has gone through the changes Iberia are being put through, kicking and screaming, right now. They have gone through the redundancies, from top management down to part time occasional workers, they have gone through the route analysis and have gone through periods of contraction whilst their focus has moved on to the company's core strengths. Only after that hard work and severe pain have you seen British Airways emerge leaner, fitter and equipped to take on their competitors. That hard work and pain has cleared the way for the fleet overhaul programme which sees tangible results this month when the A380 and Dreamliners start to come on line.

Iberia is way, way behind on the curve and still have much hard work to do. You can not pour water into a bucket with a hole in the bottom and hope to have enough water for your family before mending the bucket first.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 28): I don't know. Ask Walsh, because the truth is BA is expanding while IB is contracting. At the end, he wants the best for IAG as a whole, which doesn't necessarily need to be the best for IB.

For once, I agree, but only to a point. Yes, BA is expanding whilst IB currently contracts. However, I would rather see a smaller Iberia losing less today than when it was flying half empty A340s to destinations more for national pride and management ego whilst at the same time massaging the books to obscure massive draw downs whilst proudly shouting how fantastic and profitable they were. Again, this period of pain and readjustment has to be endured and seen through before Iberia expands again. On the positive side, the A340s could have been dumped along with all the routes; instead, Iberia are getting those A333s to help improve the balance sheet sooner, and I fully applaud them for that step.

Now, your last sentence is just ridiculous. Of course WW wants the best for IAG. However, as CEO of the umbrella company, it would be sheer stupidity to let Iberia whither on the vine and if anything, all the evidence points to him wanting Iberia not only to survive, but to thrive and be part of a major if not the major airline player of Europe.

Rgds

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32): It's not so much IB abandoning as much as IAG streamlining the service and adding consistency. For IAG it makes no difference what color the tail is as long as the service is consistent.

The mentality within Iberia is that if it isn't an IBERIA tail on the route, then it's a route those British Airways pirates headed by the Rat, Willy Walsh, has stolen from them and stopped them from making money on.

Fear, based on ignorance, being used by the union to their advantage.

Rgds

It strikes me that any IAG related thread degenerates into a scrap between the two [UK and Spanish] nationalist voices that frequent a.net..

Can I therefore make a suggestion that a new thread is opened for the anti -IB and the anti- BA/Willie Walsh crowd so they can slag each other off to their hearts content leaving threads such as this relating to commercial/technological issues pertinent to IAG available for comment by those who have genuinely relevant comments to make.

I can not find anything to confirm this rumour on the IAG website.

Have any of the Unions posted anything on their websites.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 36): LH has been extremely careful by not stepping on anybody's toes.

What ?

If Swiss was the mess that IB is LH would be all over them like a rash.

They got burnt with BD but luckily for them BA came to their rescue. (After they had sucked out a lot of the marrow.)

I'm sure BD staff thoroughly enjoyed not knowing whether they had a job from one day to the next.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 36): 2 World Wars have been fought because of it and even the UK still refused to relinquish it's proud pound sterling in favor of the Euro or to join the Schengen zone.

What ?

Do you have any idea of the even greater mess the UK would be in if we had joined the Eurozone ?

It was not because of pride that we would not give up the £. Try common sense.

[Edited 2013-06-25 10:32:58]

I do remember how Iberia took Viasa down. With Aerolineas Argentinas the problems did not ended as bad as they did with Viasa, but almost. It seems that now they are going the same direction, however this time they are the victim. I have to admit that Iberia was State owned for 1990 and now it is a whole different company.

But as said previously, what goes around comes around...

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 24): Iberia was like flying charter with unfriendly, indifferent service and poor quality food offered at an extorsionate price

Err, I am sure that some charter services are at least consistent and offer reasonably friendly staff at all times!!!! Sure you don't get free meals and free checked bags but you get what is expected and known in advance with a smile.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 30): Expansion has been a long time coming at BA with incredibly conservative aircraft orders and route increases built upon drastically lower costs !

Agreed. BA made big losses 4/5 years ago and had to drag some of their staff (cabin crew) into the real world. This has now been done and BA are now in a fit state to expand. This is better than expanding when you shouldn't for expansion's sake! I do think BA would be better suited tied to another sensible airline such as KL but too late!!!!!

Quoting debonair (Reply 10): See it realistic - IB will sell their LHR-slots for $ to reduce the losses.

  

According to UK slot coordinator, IB holds 168 weekly slot. Easily could be worth a few hundred million.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 25): .....I don't care who does what as long as it makes money !!

And this is exactly the problem with businesses today.

It would be nice to know what the exact content (=facts, not interpretations) of this famous annex 10 is, which is the red line that the pilots' union will not cross and what led to break up of negotiations.

Also as a side note, this dispute is exclusively between management and the Sepla pilots' union, as all other IB unions agreed to the restructuring plan back in march.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 43): It would be nice to know what the exact content (=facts, not interpretations) of this famous annex 10 is, which is the red line that the pilots' union will not cross and what led to break up of negotiations.

Your wish is my pleasure  
.

http://www.usosectoraereo.com/attachments/349_VIICCPilotos.pdf

Rgds

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 44):

It is in page 147  

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 31): Now, your last sentence is just ridiculous.

I'd love to know why... But at least it was just a sentence, while your novella-long rant was choke full of them.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 37): If Swiss was the mess that IB is LH would be all over them like a rash.

Uh? Swiss was born from the ashes of bankrupt SR, with a lot of cash infusion from the Swiss government. When LH took Swiss over, it was in a much worse situation than IB is now, not to mention at the time of the merger with BA.

I have read an announcement made by Iberia stating that there are no plans of making any changes in that concern, so Iberia will continue to operate flights to LHR and any flight to the US will be transferred to AA. My apologies for posting an article that is not true, I won't trust that website anymore in the future.

Quoting mfc (Reply 47): My apologies for posting an article that is not true, I won't trust that website anymore in the future.

  

Quoting mfc (Reply 47): Iberia will continue to operate flights to LHR and any flight to the US will be transferred to AA.

I take it as granted that rather ''not a single flight'' is to be transferred to AA.

Quoting mfc (Reply 47): My apologies for posting an article that is not true, I won't trust that website anymore in the future.

You were quite right to post it, and I for one thank you for doing so.

It serves to show how far apart Sepla and Iberia management are in their efforts to reorganise the company.

Rgds