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FlyASAGuy2005
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JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:45 pm

Well, there was a thread very recently touting that all of the Save the Pan Am Worldport groups (or main group) was gaining traction due to some recent event. Along the lines of T3 being put on some national register list or the other.

We demolition has begun and the saucer is being dismantled as we speak by bulldozer and backhoe. Life goes on apparently.
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OA412
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:51 pm

That's really too bad. I flew out of T3 a few times, and while it wasn't quite as bad as some on a.net made it out to be, it really was showing its age and needed either replacement or a very major overhaul. Still, it's sad to see one of the last vestiges of a once great airline go away.
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:21 pm

My emotional side wishes T3 and T6 could have been saved some how, but my logical side sees what's happening with the old T5. Time does march on. I hope the preservationists focus on doing something beneficial with T5 instead of lamenting the demise of T3.
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
We demolition has begun and the saucer is being dismantled as we speak by bulldozer and backhoe. Life goes on apparently.

Thank goodness. Only about 20 years overdue.
 
Ezra
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:29 pm

Can anyone get pictures of the demolition?
 
AWACSooner
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 1):
That's really too bad. I flew out of T3 a few times, and while it wasn't quite as bad as some on a.net made it out to be, it really was showing its age and needed either replacement or a very major overhaul. Still, it's sad to see one of the last vestiges of a once great airline go away.

So hoses and tarps to catch the rain water...and pigeons wandering the terminal...are ok to you?
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
demolition has begun and the saucer is being dismantled as we speak by bulldozer and backhoe. Life goes on apparently.

I thought that T3 had a lot of asbestos in both the saucer and Worldport extension (especially the saucer) that had to be removed all at once. Was the asbestos removed prior to demolition?

Anyway, I never got a chance to fly through T3, but one of my friends flew through there many times on JFK-NCE. She hated that place, but she flew through there anyway because DL has the only US-NCE nonstops (does DL fly ATL-NCE?). And when I told her recently that DL was bulldozing T3 and had just expanded T4, she literally jumped for joy at the news. No matter how hard they could try, with passenger opinions like these and the condition T3 was in, I don't think T3 could have ever been restored to the Pan Am days.

Part of T3's final condition had to do with treatment. Even during the Carl Icahn cost-cutting days, TWA kept JFK T5 in such good condition that the historically significant parts could be restored. The same could not be said for Pan Am's treatment of T3 during their downward spiral or the fact that DL originally wanted to bulldoze T3 just nine years after buying Pan Am's European routes. DL did do Band-Aid fixes to T3, but they were nothing compared to what DL needed to be "New York's airline" as they want to be known as: a complete replacement of T3.

That said, I personally think the T2 replacement, T4C/Phase III, will partially be built on the site of T3. I think T4A will also be expanded as part of Phase III to consolidate all SkyTeam and DL partner carriers at T4, and AF and KE will sell their JFK T1 interests to airlines that would move to T1 after T4 becomes an all-SkyTeam terminal.

[Edited 2013-06-27 10:04:45]
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 5):
So hoses and tarps to catch the rain water...and pigeons wandering the terminal...are ok to you?

Only because of the neglect the PA has shown to this iconic building.

It is shameful that they rushed in to demolish it before considering the alternatives that would allow its reuse.

Shameful.
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 7):
Only because of the neglect the PA has shown to this iconic building.

It wasn't the PANYNJ that sent it into disrepair - it was the owners of the actual building: Pan Am (which was in the ultimate downward spiral), then Delta (who wanted to replace T3 for 13 years).

[Edited 2013-06-27 10:07:16]
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 7):
It is shameful that they rushed in to demolish it before considering the alternatives that would allow its reuse.



They kept T-5 to pursue an alternative reuses which has never materialized. Why would some kind of reuse plan come to fruition at T-3 when nothing has even been developed at T-5. What would be different at T-3 than T-5. The Port Authority cannot tolerate two empty terminals on property being maintained simply for vanity and nostalgia.
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deltal1011man
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):

Uh no.
T2/3 are port owned. Delta doesn't have ownership of any terminal in the US that I know of.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):

Hey you cut that logic stuff out. Clearly the port should have kept it around just because.  
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:25 pm

In the end, all that the preservationists accomplished was the more-rapid demolition of the building. Once there is a material threat of some kind of restraining order coming down, it is incumbent upon any prudent manager to get the thing demolished immediately, presuming that he can do so legally. In New York, once your opponent gets the courts involved, and you don't get the restraining order dissolved promptly, you're in it for potentially half-a-decade or more.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:42 pm

In case there was any doubt, DL even put out a press release about it today: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2031
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:49 pm

A shame to see a historic piece of aviation disappear. Coming from DL, this whole demolition process doesn't surprise me one bit. The only history DL seems to honor is their own original. T3 was still PA. It has to go.
 
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OA412
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 5):
So hoses and tarps to catch the rain water...and pigeons wandering the terminal...are ok to you?

I don't recall actually saying any of that. What I did say, is that some of the complaints about T3 on a.net were overblown, and I stand by that. In case you did not read it in my original post, I noted that T3 did need a major overhaul or to be torn down.

Also, I never understood the complaint about pigeons. I've seen birds inside the terminal at almost every airport I've ever visited.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
A shame to see a historic piece of aviation disappear. Coming from DL, this whole demolition process doesn't surprise me one bit. The only history DL seems to honor is their own original. T3 was still PA. It has to go.

Oh lord! All your moaning wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't clear that had the shoe fallen on the other foot, and NW had been the acquiring carrier, you'd be A-OK with everything that has happened so far in this merger including T3's demolition. What you seem to "forget" is that DL held onto T3 for over 20 years.

And in case you didn't bother to read the press release that was just posted, here is the very first paragraph from that release:

Recognizing the former Pan Am Worldport's place in John F. Kennedy International Airport's aviation history, Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey will partner to create a suitable tribute to the Worldport during the redevelopment of the Terminal 3 site. Delta and the Port Authority will consider incorporating artifacts that may include models used by Milton Hebald to create the 'Zodiac' sculptures as well as photographs.



[Edited 2013-06-27 10:57:41]
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cokepopper
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
A shame to see a historic piece of aviation disappear. Coming from DL, this whole demolition process doesn't surprise me one bit. The only history DL seems to honor is their own original. T3 was still PA. It has to go.

Your feign outrage is just laughable. Thanks for making my day!
As someone has worked in this building since '91 I applaud my employer
for NOT putting in another dime to try to save it. Delta did the best they could
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Along the lines of T3 being put on some national register list

That "national register" was part of a list created by some special interest group. It is all bark and no bite. This group puts anything on the list which they consider threatened by progress or development. The same group put the James River in Virginia on the list because a proposed power line will ruin the view of the river but they failed to mention the nuclear power plant on the same river where the power lines would be coming from. They are a bunch of hipocrites.
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
My emotional side wishes T3 and T6 could have been saved some how, but my logical side sees what's happening with the old T5. Time does march on. I hope the preservationists focus on doing something beneficial with T5 instead of lamenting the demise of T3.

I agree. T3 it was pretty cool and unique. My dad used to watch airplanes from the top. Glad I was able to fly through it a couple times

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 7):
It is shameful that they rushed in to demolish it before considering the alternatives that would allow its reuse.

Prove that they rushed into it and that they didn't consider the alternatives. You make this claim a lot. It's not as if they announced that it was going to be destroyed yesterday
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
Also, I never understood the complaint about pigeons. I've seen birds inside the terminal at almost every airport I've ever visited.

But that won't stop people using that complaint to add fuel to their anger. It's obvious they've seen pigeons ONLY in Delta's T-3 at JFK and NOWHERE else!!  
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
deltal1011man
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):

Yep
Now if we can get rid of that red widget project visine shall be complete!  
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 18):

I'm sure all the T3 birds just moved over to T2   
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 7):
It is shameful that they rushed in to demolish it before considering the alternatives that would allow its reuse.

You really don't help your cause by making such mendacious statements.

Ref: DL presser:

Quote:

While the Port Authority has preserved historic structures at each of its major airports – including the TWA Flight Center at JFK, the Marine Air Terminal at LaGuardia and the administration building at Newark Liberty – the adaptive reuse of Terminal 3 is not feasible.
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klwright69
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:11 pm

Time moves on.... I just went through T3 two months ago. My god what a dump. As I said in another thread, it looks the same as when I fly through it 20 years ago when I was 21 years old. Exactly the same. I love that circular observation area by all the restaurants and the bar. But the ceilings and some of the corridors honestly remain of the inside of a private residence it is so tiny and claustrophobic, and that is no joke or exaggeration.

The saucer is in awful condition. The saucer is a piece of history but I don't know how it can be saved.

You can see the pictures on the Save the World Port facebook group.

The new DL facilities are an improvement for sure. But honestly not terribly memorable.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:06 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):

They kept T-5 to pursue an alternative reuses which has never materialized. Why would some kind of reuse plan come to fruition at T-3 when nothing has even been developed at T-5. What would be different at T-3 than T-5. The Port Authority cannot tolerate two empty terminals on property being maintained simply for vanity and nostalgia.

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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 1):
I flew out of T3 a few times, and while it wasn't quite as bad as some on a.net made it out to be

Lowest standards ever, apparently. That terminal was one of the most embarrassing BUILDINGS I've ever been in in my entire life. I flew out of it many times as a DL employee; I had pigeons crap on me, I had ceiling tiles fall next to me, I had water dripping on me and birds trying to steal my Chinese food from right in front of me...

I love aviation history, but the sooner that heap is gone the better. What an abysmal place.
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:16 pm

Hopefully they can put a new, bigger, grander, state-of-the art, non-general-airport-terminal-style-esque building that is worthy to be put in T3's place.

One that may usher in the next era of air travel, to the stars! 
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oneskyjet
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:45 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 7):
Only because of the neglect the PA has shown to this iconic building.

It is shameful that they rushed in to demolish it before considering the alternatives that would allow its reuse.

Shameful.

Its not the PA, it's PanAm and then Delta that let the building go downhill. While the original cantilever "saucer" is architecutrally interesting, the rest of the PanAm "worldport" is an uninspiring design that has not held up well over time. Only solution is to get rid of the whole thing. Real estate at JFK is too valuable to have another monument like the abandoned TWA terminal that still today has found no viable use despite its beauty.
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
I'm sure all the T3 birds just moved over to T2

I saw a big fat pigeon in T2 several months ago when T3 was still open. He must have known what was coming. While T3 was iconic, time moves on. They saved the TWA terminal which was the most iconic and I think that's sufficient. As someone else said recently, JFK is a functioning airport, not a museum of historic terminals. Time to move on folks, let it go.
 
AwysBSB
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:57 am

How does such a infringement happen so easily? Have DL and PANYNJ never feared a penalty from court?
Since the beginning, DL's and PANYNJ's plans related to T3 have been very controversial. In other words, they just have never had the need and the right for demolishing T3 saucer.
Now this misdoing has to get very expensive for them.

[Edited 2013-06-27 19:06:25]
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 27):
How does such a infringement happen so easily? Have DL and PANYNJ never feared a penalty from court?
Since the beginning, DL's and PANYNJ's plans related to T3 have been very controversial. In other words, they just have never had the need and the right for demolishing T3 saucer.
Now this misdoing has to get very expensive for them.

Perhaps the preservationists will file a lawsuit against DL and PANYNJ, but they definitely won't win.
 
AA94
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 27):

As far as I know, no one has infringed upon anything.

Delta and the Port Authority have the right to do anything they want with that terminal, including demolishing it.

What they feared, is that preservation groups such as Save Pan Am Worldport were close to getting to an injunction or an order of some kind prohibiting the building's demolition. If that had happened, there would have been (potentially) years of red tape and legal fees involved. So DL/PANYNJ did the prudent thing and accelerated demolition, dismantling the terminal while they still (legally) could.
 
questions
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting michman (Reply 26):
I saw a big fat pigeon in T2 several months ago when T3 was still open.

I've heard some of the fancy eateries in the new T4B are serving squab:
- Squab Burger at Shake Shack
- The SkySquab Skewer on the menu in the new flagship Sky Club menu
 
deltal1011man
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 24):

it'll be stand land. Basically replacing the hard stands T4B has taken the space of. Also allows for dual taxi at both T4B and T2.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 27):
Have DL and PANYNJ never feared a penalty from court?
Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 27):
and the right for demolishing T3 saucer.

uh...what? You do realize this is the United State yes?
I know some of our current political leaders like to think they are king, but no law says the port can't knock down a building that it owns.
Honestly I would enjoy seeing the judge toss it out if some did try to get a lawsuit over it.

Quoting michman (Reply 26):

lol. I swear, I have never seen birds that walk up to you and steal your food like the ones in NYC. Crazy.
also agree, T5 has been a failure....we don't need another one.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
Recognizing the former Pan Am Worldport's place in John F. Kennedy International Airport's aviation history, Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey will partner to create a suitable tribute to the Worldport during the redevelopment of the Terminal 3 site. Delta and the Port Authority will consider incorporating artifacts that may include models used by Milton Hebald to create the 'Zodiac' sculptures as well as photographs.

Thanks for sharing that.

I cant help but ask DL: Does this mean you're going to paint a blue pan am globe on the slab of concrete that will take the place of T3? I guess my other question is "What redevelopment?" Everything i've read on these boards suggests that Terminal 3 is disappearing and nothing is taking it's place.

Anyway, as someone who takes interest in aviation history and airport architecture, its a sad day. One of the world's most iconic air terminals is being replaced by yet another boring shopping mall that happens to have gates and airplanes. Oh well, at least there's still Terminal One at CDG.
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cokepopper
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:06 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 32):
i've read on these boards suggests that Terminal 3 is disappearing and nothing is taking it's place.

Not true. A hard stand is taking it's place. A beautiful wide open space. so Lots of planes can park and
maneuver. Still better/more functional than what is there now.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:47 pm

Very sad and unnecessary. While the addition to the original saucer section absolutely should have been torn down, the saucer itself should not have. It was a historic building. Preservation was feasible. Of course it was. It just wasn't a priority for the Port Authority. That's tragic. Make no mistake, this a great loss for aviation history.
 
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:53 pm

I fear that despite all the efforts to save the saucer, the structure itself may not of been salvagable. It was not in good shape when I saw it last month, and there are many issues with asbestos and other nasty EPA controlled materials...

Sad to see it go, but I think it's honestly for the best. The Saarien TWA terminal remnant is a sad forlorn looking building sitting inside the access road for the new T5.

With T3 gone, T2 won't be far behind i hope... T1 or T4 should be expanded into the space it occupies now, allowing for better taxi access while replacing the gates for T2. I doubt anyone will shed much in the way of tears if T2 is knocked down.
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PanAm1971
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 27):
How does such a infringement happen so easily? Have DL and PANYNJ never feared a penalty from court?
Since the beginning, DL's and PANYNJ's plans related to T3 have been very controversial. In other words, they just have never had the need and the right for demolishing T3 saucer.
Now this misdoing has to get very expensive for them.

Actually, the National Trust put T-3 on the 11 most endangered historic places in America list just two weeks ago. The facebook Save the Pan Am Worldport page was actually starting to get some real traction at the Port Authority meetings as well as getting press attention. My guess is-DL's lawyers said "we need to speed this up before this gets more complicated."
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:56 pm

Equally sad to this loss was when they tore down the three beautiful little chapels that sat opposite Terminal 3.

I will never understand why the Port Authority would not maintain the building properly. When it rained there were buckets everywhere to catch the water. I have hard that the old TW terminal was almost in as bad shape but there was a lot of political pressure to maintain it better.
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PanAm1971
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):
I will never understand why the Port Authority would not maintain the building properly. When it rained there were buckets everywhere to catch the water. I have hard that the old TW terminal was almost in as bad shape but there was a lot of political pressure to maintain it better.

I don't want to be strange or esoteric about this-but Juan Trippe's style and conduct left a great deal of bitterness in many quarters that never really faded. Some folks-even after all these years-see anything Pan Am the same way a bull sees red. I think the chances of preserving and restoring T-3 were always problematic at best.
 
AwysBSB
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
Quoting AA94 (Reply 29):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 31):
T3 saucer is on a public area and its demolition has an expressive disapproval.
The fact that court have not issued a decision about it does not give DL and PANYNJ the right of demolishing the T3 saucer. The dispute between parties already existed. Besides that, both DL and PANYNJ have the duty of acting morally or, if not, too many rights will become under threat.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 29):
What they feared, is that preservation groups such as Save Pan Am Worldport were close to getting to an injunction or an order of some kind prohibiting the building's demolition. If that had happened, there would have been (potentially) years of red tape and legal fees involved.

If T3 saucer was being preserved, it would stay a very little time unused, since several companies would be interested in it.
Summarizing, this demolition is just oppressing lots of weighty interests, besides calling an arduous punishment.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 36):
Actually, the National Trust put T-3 on the 11 most endangered historic places in America list just two weeks ago. The facebook Save the Pan Am Worldport page was actually starting to get some real traction at the Port Authority meetings as well as getting press attention. My guess is-DL's lawyers said "we need to speed this up before this gets more complicated."

Those DL people took the wrong way and they are to bear the consequences of that.

[Edited 2013-06-28 07:22:51]

[Edited 2013-06-28 07:32:38]
 
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Revelation
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 35):
With T3 gone, T2 won't be far behind i hope... T1 or T4 should be expanded into the space it occupies now, allowing for better taxi access while replacing the gates for T2.

Seems to me that T4 is committed to the long pier approach and it'd be hard to see it growing towards the hole being left by the demise of T3. Seems the T1 expansion would be the better course and others have suggested it is the unspoken long term plan.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 36):
Actually, the National Trust put T-3 on the 11 most endangered historic places in America list just two weeks ago.

I think we should all agree that was and is largely a symbolic act. The "facts on the ground" surely drive us to such an interpretation, no?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):
I will never understand why the Port Authority would not maintain the building properly.

Have you ever had a leaky roof? Take whatever problem you'd have with a standard roof and raise it to the Nth power for the one-off design at Worldport after being in use for decades. Problem with the roof at the new T5? Pop out a few ceiling tiles and have at it. Problem at the roof at the former T3? Ugh!

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 38):
I don't want to be strange or esoteric about this-but Juan Trippe's style and conduct left a great deal of bitterness in many quarters that never really faded. Some folks-even after all these years-see anything Pan Am the same way a bull sees red. I think the chances of preserving and restoring T-3 were always problematic at best.


Interesting. I've read about Trippe mostly in the context of launching the 747 and it was said he was "flamboyant" but I didn't realize there was outright hatred of the man - do tell!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 39):
Those DL people decided to take the wrong way and they are to bear the consequences of that

While Mayor Bloomberg had little practical power over the Port Authority, I think it was clear he didn't want any precedent set that might make long term lease holders thinking twice about investing in big projects at the area's airports. I think this idea found a ready audience in the Port Authority and within NYC government in general. Any delay to DL's plans could have been such a precedent. In other words-saving Worldport was always a marginal prospect at best. Throw in a severe recession... and... you get the picture.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
I think we should all agree that was and is largely a symbolic act. The "facts on the ground" surely drive us to such an interpretation, no?

Disagree. I think the Save the Pan Am Worldport page actually showed there was a constituency interested in the preservation of T-3. The National Trust likes projects that have grassroots backing. I would love to say that had they only gotten involved earlier T-3 could have been saved... but I don't think that's true.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
Interesting. I've read about Trippe mostly in the context of launching the 747 and it was said he was "flamboyant" but I didn't realize there was outright hatred of the man - do tell!

He was man not afraid to pick up a telephone to Washington during the days of regulation. Pan Am certainly benefitted from his efforts. This usually came at the detriment of competitors without such Washington rolodex telephone power. Of course, times changed and regulation was swept away. But the ill will this type of "competition" engendered did not.
 
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Revelation
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 39):
The fact that court have not issued a decision about it does not give DL and PANYNJ the right of demolishing the T3 saucer.

Actually they do have the right. If the case was strong enough the judge would have issued a court order. The other side certainly could have made a phone call the second anyone touched the building and the judge could have issued the order immediately. However...

Property owners have many rights in the US that they may not have elsewhere.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 39):
If T3 saucer was being preserved, it would stay a very little time unused, since several companies would be interested in it.

Then please explain why T5 is sitting unused for year after year.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 41):

Big investments in NYC are not that vulnerable.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
Actually they do have the right. If the case was strong enough the judge would have issued a court order. The other side certainly could have made a phone call the second anyone touched the building and the judge could have issued the order immediately. However...

Property owners have many rights in the US that they may not have elsewhere.

DL is not the owner of T3.
T3 is a public space.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
Then please explain why T5 is sitting unused for year after year.

It sits unused because it is not proper for B6. If T5 was operated by Star Alliance, Eero Saarinen building would be able to work as a perfect premium terminal.
 
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Revelation
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 44):
It sits unused because it is not proper for B6. If T5 was operated by Star Alliance, Eero Saarinen building would be able to work as a perfect premium terminal.

What makes you think that *A has any interest in having a premium terminal? Personally I feel such a proposal is totally unworkable.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 44):
Big investments in NYC are not that vulnerable

CC this to Mayor Bloomberg!   (I couldn't agree with you more!)
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:17 pm

I'm VERY in favor of historical preservation, but I'm not seeing that Terminal 3 was that spectacular.

What does infuriate me is the demolition of New York Penn Station in 1963; and the Chicago and Northwestern depot in Chicago in 1984.
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
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RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 47):
I'm VERY in favor of historical preservation, but I'm not seeing that Terminal 3 was that spectacular.

The original Worldport (without the ugly addition) was a great piece of architecture in my opinion. For a variety of reasons the Port Authority and the City didn't want to save the original structure... though it surely could have been done.
 
Caspian27
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:06 pm

I love history, and as a pilot I of course love aviation history. I don't understand the need to preserve every building anywhere that had even the slightest bit of history to it. If we preserved every building that had history eventually we would just have to move the airport to a new location so efficient terminals could be built that didn't infringe upon obselote historical buildings. An airport is supposed to be able to move one person to another place efficiently. It's not a museum. I agree with what others have said here. Preserving this building would have set a bad precedent.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...

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