Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
tsnamm
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 44):

DL is not the owner of T3.
T3 is a public space.



JFK Intl Airport is owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY & NJ...which is a quasi public-private corporation...therefore the Port which is contracting out the demolition is able to do what they want with the building. They have not broken any laws nor violated any rulings. All they have done is make a small number of people angry, by demolishing an obsolete and dilapidated building that needs to go. It is interesting this idea that the owners of a property should have little to say about their use of it, and 3rd parties should control and determine what stays and what goes...numerous posters on this site criticize JFK as a "dump" when in fact what they mean is T3...now that DL finally has a new facility and PANYNJ is getting rid of the "dump", suddenly everyone wants to save it...you just can't win...as has been pointed out T5 which was "preserved' sits empty for 10 years, not renovated, not used, basically in the way, and nobody comes to "admire" it...perhaps some town should have bought it like London Bridge and dismantled it and reassembled it somewhere else..
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 49):
I love history, and as a pilot I of course love aviation history. I don't understand the need to preserve every building anywhere that had even the slightest bit of history to it. If we preserved every building that had history eventually we would just have to move the airport to a new location so efficient terminals could be built that didn't infringe upon obselote historical buildings. An airport is supposed to be able to move one person to another place efficiently. It's not a museum. I agree with what others have said here. Preserving this building would have set a bad precedent.

I agree totally. Only the saucer is really cool and interesting. It would be nice if that could be saved. As I said I travelled through T3 3 months ago. It is so obsolete. It is shocking. It is not memorable in any way in the eyes of the traveler. Okay, so present and past tenants have let it go. But really it wasn't that great from the get go. It just wasn't. Those are the facts. The paint is falling off and chipped from the saucer. Too bad, it's a shame.

Yes, I recall sitting in that terminal before boarding a PA flight two decades ago. I have those memories. But the building has outlived its usefulness. Even 20 years ago T3 was nothing special. T4 is nothing special either, but it's a huge leap forward for DL and the travelers experience. But T3 must go.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 49):
An airport is supposed to be able to move one person to another place efficiently.

Well, to play devil's advocate, one could say the same is true for railroad stations yet as above many lament the passing of NY Penn Station. However we do already have a monument to the glory years of JFK in the form of T5 and I agree adding another would have set a bad precedent.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 44):

It is not a public space
It is owned by the port and the port can do whatever they want with it, as they did with T6/8/9


Or prove me wrong because personally I think you are way over your head.
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:24 pm

I've just learned that todays demolition work is only partial as they need to remove asbestos from the structure before they can move forward.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 54):
I've just learned that todays demolition work is only partial as they need to remove asbestos from the structure before they can move forward.

Maybe so, but by the looks of it, part of the saucer is gone.
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 46):
CC this to Mayor Bloomberg! (I couldn't agree with you more!)

It is easier you New Yorkers elect a better Mayor next time.

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 50):
Port Authority of NY & NJ...which is a quasi public-private corporation

That is what makes them even more subject to public interests, like preserving of a historic building.
Since private interests of DL and of construction companies are being favored over public interests, PANYNJ is violating the legality.

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 50):
people angry

On the one hand, the 4,000 petitioners that urged the city to preserve and restore T3 rotunda are just a part of the people that disapprove the demolition.
On the other hand, just the majority of people would be pleased to meet a preserved and restored JFK saucer.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
What makes you think that *A has any interest in having a premium terminal?

Let me answer you with another question: what makes you thing that NYC is not the market for a premium terminal?

[Edited 2013-06-28 12:31:40]
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3189
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):

That is what makes them even more subject to public interests, like preserving of a historic building. Since private interests of DL and of construction companies are being favored over public interests, PANYNJ is violating the legality.

Port Authority's mission isn't to save every old building, regardless of cost or condition. From their About the Port Authority page: Our mission is simple: To keep the region moving.

They serve the public interest by providing efficient, cost-effective, facilities for transportation.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4796
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:51 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 18):
But that won't stop people using that complaint to add fuel to their anger. It's obvious they've seen pigeons ONLY in Delta's T-3 at JFK and NOWHERE else!!

True. Like I said, I've seen them at every airport I've ever visited. Old, new, whatever. It's

Quoting N766UA (Reply 23):
Lowest standards ever, apparently.

Are you joking or trying to be insulting? I'm sincerely curious. I don't have low standards by any means, but the terminal just wasn't as bad as it was made out to be when I was last there. As I already said, it absolutely needed a makeover if it stayed around, but it wasn't the horrid hellhole that people make it out to be, especially the 1970's addition.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
Perhaps the preservationists will file a lawsuit against DL and PANYNJ, but they definitely won't win.

We don't know that they definitely wouldn't win. We don't even know that they probably wouldn't win. We just don't know what would happen if this had been litigated, so you can't very well say that they absolutely would have lost.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 52):
However we do already have a monument to the glory years of JFK in the form of T5 and I agree adding another would have set a bad precedent.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to the stained glass mural that was outside AA's old terminal?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
luckyone
Posts: 3282
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):
Let me answer you with another question: what makes you thing that NYC is not the market for a premium terminal?

For starters the largest carrier at JFK is a low-co, and the second largest doesn't operate a first class.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10877
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):
Since private interests of DL and of construction companies are being favored over public interests, PANYNJ is violating the legality.

How is keeping T3 in the public's best interest?
The followup questions to whatever your response is to speed this along: How do you know? What proof do you have?

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):
On the other hand, just the majority of people would be pleased to meet a preserved and restored JFK saucer.

How do you know? What proof do you have that a majority of people would be pleased to meet a preserved and restored JFK saucer? The petitioners isn't enough, 4,000 people is a long way from a majority.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
What makes you think that *A has any interest in having a premium terminal?

Let me answer you with another question: what makes you thing that NYC is not the market for a premium terminal?

There's no way to justify having an building size of the saucer/Zodiac set up just for premium pax, one that is not at all close to the planes these pax would be boarding. There was a similar discussion here recently about doing a similar thing at LHR, and when you did out the logistics, the immediate question was why would premium pax want to spend extra time at the airport? They just want to be let out as close as possible to their planes, get through security, and get on with it. Why would they want to be dropped off at a premium terminal and then schlep over to wherever their plane is? If a transit (not as common at JFK as LHR) why would they want to schlep over to the premium terminal then back later? If you think it's economical for the planes to taxi over there for arrival/departure, or to have a separate premium transit system airside, you'd be wrong. Then you have to answer why it is that *A would sign a lease with enough $$$ in it to maintain the saucer. You may have noticed that most are eliminating F or reducing it in favor of J.

BTW, NYC already has a premium airport, it's called Teterboro and it's in New Jersey. The true premium pax get driven over there, hop in their biz jets, and never have to deal with the unwashed masses.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):

As an attorney in NY, I can unequivocally state that this is not the law. The PANYNJ as a landowner has the same rights as any other private land owner to do with their property as they please in accordance with the requirements of the Public Authorities Law, none of which require them to preserve an unlandmarked structure. Nothing the have done is actionable and furthermore I cannot think of a group or organization with standing to sue. It's done.T3 is going away, as it should.
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 57):

They cannot be unconcerned about the most significant buildings they are responsible for.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 59):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
BTW, NYC already has a premium airport, it's called Teterboro and it's in New Jersey. The true premium pax get driven over there, hop in their biz jets, and never have to deal with the unwashed masses.

Lets focus on American airports for scheduled air services. Is there any of those dealing with more high value customers than JFK?

Quoting Polot (Reply 60):

Do not be afraid of the truth. This is a dispute between PANYNJ's corporatism versus society and supporting that corporatism makes nobody better.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):

Write these your ideas to LH, QR or JetQuay.

Quoting bkflyguy (Reply 62):

You cannot prove by any law that PANYNJ and DL are being ethical with such a response (the whole demolition of T3) to preservationist motions.
Such a behavour of PANYNJ recalls episodes of when democracy was much weaker in the US.
That immoral bad faith action cannot keep unpunished.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10877
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
Do not be afraid of the truth. This is a dispute between PANYNJ's corporatism versus society and supporting that corporatism makes nobody better.

So you have no proof, you just going by what you feel.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
Do not be afraid of the truth. This is a dispute between PANYNJ's corporatism versus society and supporting that corporatism makes nobody better.

Again, who says keeping T3 is better for society?

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
You cannot prove by any law that PANYNJ and DL are being ethical with such a response (the whole demolition of T3) to preservationist motions.

Is quickly demolishing a building so preservationist can't protect it ethical? Maybe not. But unethical != illegal.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
That immoral bad faith action cannot keep unpunished.

Immoral bad faith actions occur everyday from every corporation and every person.
 
Prost
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:39 pm

AwysBSB, am I correct in thinking that you are of the opinion that an actual crime is being perpetrated by Delta Air Lines and PANYNJ?
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):

Honestly, the building is going to be demolished whether you like it or not. Instead of bashing the people who agree with this decision with your "feelings" and lack of facts, maybe you should come to NYC, to the site and take more pictures before its gone forever if you care that much.

[Edited 2013-06-29 09:35:40]
 
cokepopper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:19 pm

One can always chain themselves to the fence. lol
The Building is coming down as we type. there is nothing to save, move on.
 
Prost
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:31 pm

 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
Lets focus on American airports for scheduled air services. Is there any of those dealing with more high value customers than JFK?

Not the right question to be asked. The correct one is to ask if JFK is dealing with enough high value customers who would find the premium terminal valuable enough to pay enough more for their tickets to cover the cost of running that terminal and the related airside transport and suffer longer transit times?

The airlines have already voted by spending their funds on in-terminal vip/club areas and by not reaching out to offer to use T3 or T5 or T6 for the purposes you seem to think they value so highly.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
This is a dispute between PANYNJ's corporatism versus society and supporting that corporatism makes nobody better.

IMHO you need to pick your battles better.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
Such a behavour of PANYNJ recalls episodes of when democracy was much weaker in the US.

Uhm, we just learned that the NSA is watching pretty much every form of electronic conversation going on in the US and the reaction was: meh. Seems there are much bigger problems with our democracy to worry about, IMHO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:03 pm

When was the AirTrain connector to T3 built? Why wasn't it built to T2 instead? It seems that T3 has been in the demolition list for years. What are the plans for the connector now that the T2-T4 walkway is not going to be built?
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
Do not be afraid of the truth. This is a dispute between PANYNJ's corporatism versus society and supporting that corporatism makes nobody better.

How do you feel about the people (not corporations) that prefer a new, functioning terminal and couldn't care less about a not very nostalgic (to most people) old building? You're erroneously simplifying the argument into the independent, freedom loving citizens wanting to preserve T-3 vs the corporations and their drone citizens wanting to tear T-3 down.

Newsflash: most passngers don't care about T-3. I'm sad seeing it go but I'm not gonna cry about it all day, it's impossible to save now anyway. Parts of it are already destroyed
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):

Why have no lawsuits been filed? Oh, maybe because preservationists have no case?
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:08 pm

We (the A.netters of this thread) are a very small number of people. What prevails here does not represent the opinion of the majority of people. Besides A.net, there are several other communities that are processing the absurdity PANYNJ is practicing. It can be even larger the number of people that are still to get disappointed with the end of T3 saucer.
People here that are denying reality and cowardly supporting that absurdity are totally confused, since approving the demolition of T3 saucer is far different of approving the way PANYNJ is doing it. PANYNJ cannot oppress motions that are defending a public interest. They are gradually setting bad precedents that put many things under threat. That is what we should be worried with.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Topic Author
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 63):
You cannot prove by any law that PANYNJ and DL are being ethical with such a response (the whole demolition of T3)



Oh brother now we're talking ethics??

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
Uhm, we just learned that the NSA is watching pretty much every form of electronic conversation going on in the US and the reaction was: meh. Seems there are much bigger problems with our democracy to worry about, IMHO.



Exactly!!! The whole tired seems so out of place considering everything that's going on in the world right now. American democracy is coming down upon us and the demolition of T3 is a GREAT example!! (sarcasm)
What gets measured gets done.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 73):
People here that are denying reality and cowardly supporting that absurdity are totally confused, since approving the demolition of T3 saucer is far different of approving the way PANYNJ is doing it. PANYNJ cannot oppress motions that are defending a public interest.

Is it in the public's interests to save every somewhat old kinda historical building or provide one of the most busiest airports in the world a convenient, efficient terminal? You're acting like the majority of citizens are crying foul, not a few (relatively speaking) conservationists. You say that a.net is just a small sample of people... indeed it is, and I'd wager the people outside of a.net care immensely less about aviation history than we do. Outside of a.net, I have not heard any cries to save T-3... for the most part, no one cares. Nothing "cowardly or absurd" about that
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 73):
What prevails here does not represent the opinion of the majority of people.

Yes, I suppose we here on a.net are more sympathetic to your point of view than others are.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 73):
Besides A.net, there are several other communities that are processing the absurdity PANYNJ is practicing.

And others that agree with it, and far more who don't give a darn.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 73):
People here that are denying reality and cowardly supporting that absurdity are totally confused

Such name calling and taunting is expressly forbidden by forum rules.
You should watch your language, or take it elsewhere...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
AA94
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 44):
DL is not the owner of T3.
T3 is a public space.

Again, you are incorrect. T3 is property of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, who can do whatever they want with the building unless a court order or stay is issued preventing such action.

When I moved out of my house in North Carolina 13 years ago, was I sad? Yes. Were there a lot of great memories made there? Yes. But progression is natural. There simply isn't enough space on the planet, especially at an already crowded airport like JFK, to preserve buildings simply on the basis of history.

If a company / airline really had a good use for the terminal, they would've come to the PANYNJ and expressed that. The fact of the matter is that it served no purpose other than being a "historical object," and would've turned into the next T5, sitting vacant in a space that could've been put to much better use.

I hate to seem crass, but this is just the reality of the situation.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:24 am

All of this arguing but no pics?
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:40 pm

Today airports are built for functionality, utility and cost-effectiveness. I think the days of creating them as architectural gems is pretty well gone. Thank goodness we still have IAD and its beautiful main terminal.

If you have not passed through ATL lately take a look at concourse C at about 5 pm on a Friday. It is so packed with people there are even lines waiting for the men's room. When that terminal opened it was state-of-the-art but now is so overcrowded it has become claustrophobic. I don't know what can be done short of demolition--they are just too narrow. And there is very little room for growth.

Maybe it is time for ATL to consider the need for a whole new airport. Years ago MSP considered the possibility and I believe the MAC bought land in Dakota County just south of the present airport for just such a project. But I moved out of Minnesota in 1979 and have not kept up with the status.

T-3 and the saucer will be fondly remembered as vestiges of a bygone era of aviation. Even the old National Airlines terminal designed by I. M. Pei is gone and I am sad every time I look up at the Pan Am building in Manhattan and see "MetLife" up there. It will always be the Pan Am building for most New Yorkers.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:10 pm

Fortunately, one of my benchmarks is Oscar Niemeyer (the architect of Brasilia). He used to emphasize that, instead of the architecture, people are mostly important.
I am really sorry for PANYNJ with DL do not see people, but only numbers. For those companies, people that go to JFK have no identity, no memory, no felling. For them, people are only objects that have to be sent to their aircraft the most profitable way. No matter if that reason of them is weak, they have the power to knock down whatever they want.
This is more one case in which the argument of a power prevails, instead of the power of an argument.

[Edited 2013-06-30 08:18:38]
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 80):
I am really sorry for PANYNJ with DL do not see people, but only numbers. For those companies, people that go to JFK have no identity, no memory, no felling. For them, people are only objects that have to be sent to their aircraft the most profitable way. No matter if that reason of them is weak, they have the power to knock down whatever they want.
This is more one case in which the argument of a power prevails, instead of the power of an argument.

Do us all a favor and address the following:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
How do you feel about the people (not corporations) that prefer a new, functioning terminal and couldn't care less about a not very nostalgic (to most people) old building? You're erroneously simplifying the argument into the independent, freedom loving citizens wanting to preserve T-3 vs the corporations and their drone citizens wanting to tear T-3 down.

Or somehow you feel you speak for all people?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10877
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 80):
Fortunately, one of my benchmarks is Oscar Niemeyer (the architect of Brasilia). He used to emphasize that, instead of the architecture, people are mostly important.

I'm not sure Brasilia is the best example to use as a benchmark. It is frequently cited as an example of poor urban planning. It is also known for being pedestrian unfriendly and for struggling to keep people from leaving the city during weekends/breaks.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 80):
For those companies, people that go to JFK have no identity, no memory, no felling. For them, people are only objects that have to be sent to their aircraft the most profitable way.

90% (probably more) of the people who go through JFK don't really care about JFK's history. They just want to hurry up and get on their airplane and leave. Air travel in the US is not romanticized by the public, it is just seen as a means of transportation just like taking a train or bus is.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 79):
If you have not passed through ATL lately take a look at concourse C at about 5 pm on a Friday. It is so packed with people there are even lines waiting for the men's room. When that terminal opened it was state-of-the-art but now is so overcrowded it has become claustrophobic. I don't know what can be done short of demolition--they are just too narrow.

Wasn't there a reason C and D are narrower? Something about being built for O&D passengers vs connecting passengers? Does anyone remember? I never understood why C and D were not just built to the same specs as A and B.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 56):
It is easier you New Yorkers elect a better Mayor next time.

We have a great one now!

Quoting AA94 (Reply 77):
There simply isn't enough space on the planet

You should fly over the western U.S.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 80):
Oscar Niemeyer (the architect of Brasilia)

One of the least pedestrian-friendly cities in the world.  
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14150
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 41):
While Mayor Bloomberg had little practical power over the Port Authority, I think it was clear he didn't want any precedent set that might make long term lease holders thinking twice about investing in big projects at the area's airports. I think this idea found a ready audience in the Port Authority and within NYC government in general.

The City of New York and Mayor Bloomberg have zero say in the operations of Kennedy airport. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is jointly controlled by the Governor's of New York and New Jersey. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie has more say on what happens at JFK than Mayor Bloomberg.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:11 pm

Brasilia is not a concrete jungle, so the city can be unfriendly for pedestrians that do not like green. The main cons of Brasilia is its history be too recent and it is sad to see places with awesome histories being undervalued.
JFK history would catch the attention of more people, if more historic things remained there for them. It could be a unique airport with its remaining New Yorker identity. But PANYNJ wants JFK to be like ATL, MUC or any other "general-airport-terminal-style-esque" place.
Of course the airport has space for conciliating history with functionality. Btw, JFK needs only 2 mega-terminals (T4 and T8 expanded) and the Saarinens and the saucer buildings as premium terminals.
Thus PANYNJ and DL are spending money not to improve the airport, but to please their subcontractors which are the construction companies.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 86):
JFK history would catch the attention of more people, if more historic things remained there for them. It could be a unique airport with its remaining New Yorker identity.

Are you suggesting people would choose travel through JFK if they left T-3 up? Again, you do realize that the huge majority of people do NOT care about T-3, the design, PanAm, or aviation history? T-3 isn't famous like the Eiffel Tower, the public barely knows of it/cares about it... the public that can't tell the difference between a DC-9, 727, or "an Airbus."

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 86):
Thus PANYNJ and DL are spending money not to improve the airport, but to please their subcontractors which are the construction companies.

  Ugh, you can't be serious? I've got nothing. Funniest post I've read all week in a very sad way.
 
User avatar
PITingres
Posts: 1318
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 86):
Btw, JFK needs only 2 mega-terminals (T4 and T8 expanded) and the Saarinens and the saucer buildings as premium terminals.

There are so many things wrong with this statement, one hardly knows where to begin.

I'll start with this, though: The Pan Am terminal was IMHO mildly interesting. The Trans World Flight Center was actively ugly, depressing, and uninteresting.

Air travel is a transportation business, and has been for a long time. Various other posters have pointed this out too. I've no problem with combining good architecture with everyday usability, but a broken down, leaky, worn out saucer isn't the poster child you are looking for...
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:45 am

Quoting PITingres (Reply 88):
I'll start with this, though: The Pan Am terminal was IMHO mildly interesting. The Trans World Flight Center was actively ugly, depressing, and uninteresting.

Um, the TWA Flight Center was designed by one of the 20th centuries greatest architects which was the reason it was preserved. The vast majority of people would disagree with you on calling it ugly, depressing and uninteresting. You want an ugly, depressing and uninteresting terminal look no farther than T1, T4, the new T5 and T8 at JFK. Each of JFK's old terminals had it's own unique design, history and feel. The same cannot be said about any of its new terminals. All of the new terminals designed in the United States have the same, boring, overused warehouse look.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
ocracoke
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:15 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:25 am

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 89):
All of the new terminals designed in the United States have the same, boring, overused warehouse look.

All of them?

I think most can agree that the new F in ATL is quite modern and exciting looking.
I wouldn't classify the mid-field terminal in DTW as having a warehouse look. Unless your average warehouse has a dancing water display, a light display in the tunnel, graceful arched ceilings, and an indoor train.
Though 20 years old now, the CVG terminal still looks as if someone picked up an Ohio River steamboat and plopped it on land. A beautiful terminal. About as far from a warehouse as you can get, unless warehouses look like riverboats.
Have you flown through northern Michigan lately? If you didn't happen to see a bag belt in the PLN airport to let you know you were in an airport, you would think you are in a ski lodge, complete with a massive brick fireplace, greenwood furniture, stuffed animals on the walls, and timber framing everywhere.
TVC, also in northern Michigan, also a brand new terminal building, went the arts and crafts route. The entire airport, from the waterfall greeting you at the entrance all the way to the jet-ways, is in a Frank L. Wright style.

Those are just a few I've been through recently. Im sure there are more out there.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13084
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:51 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 32):
Oh well, at least there's still Terminal One at CDG.

That may well be a historic terminal but as a working terminal its terrible, I hate going through it, I wouldn't be sorry to see it go.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 89):
All of the new terminals designed in the United States have the same, boring, overused warehouse look.

I'm sure you know there's a reason for that, whilst T5 sits unused and T3 just got knocked down. The cool architecture of the 50s/60s was not adaptable to the requirements of the new millennium. Also there's no way of knowing if DHS/TSA is going to come up with another set of requirements that would make you knock down whatever new fancy building you put up. Add to that the fact that those wavy/funky designs are quite costly to maintain and you have a recipe for failure.

The other thing to say is that sexy buildings just do not earn their keep. When they were put up traveling was for the wealthy, and airlines competed on image, not on price. These days the airline business is about moving the great unwashed masses from Point A to Point B in as large a volume as possible as cheaply as possible, whilst hopefully taking money out of their pockets selling them fast food and overpriced reading materials.

In short, airports are not opera houses...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
AA94
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:46 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 92):
The other thing to say is that sexy buildings just do not earn their keep. When they were put up traveling was for the wealthy, and airlines competed on image, not on price. These days the airline business is about moving the great unwashed masses from Point A to Point B in as large a volume as possible as cheaply as possible, whilst hopefully taking money out of their pockets selling them fast food and overpriced reading materials.

  

We are no longer in the time period where a majority of travelers choose style over substance. People want to get from point to point as efficiently as possible, and don't really care about the architectural intricacies of their terminal building.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9215
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:12 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 89):
Um, the TWA Flight Center was designed by one of the 20th centuries greatest architects which was the reason it was preserved.

Nicely-put. For perspective, Saarinen also designed the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, the CBS Building ("Blackrock") in NY, the main Terminal at Dulles Airport in DC (a brilliant concept for the operations of the time and still a gorgeous and functional building), The University of Chicago Law School facility (including the unique glass box containing the library and faculty offices), a theatre at Lincoln Center, etc.
 
User avatar
PITingres
Posts: 1318
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 89):
the TWA Flight Center was designed by one of the 20th centuries greatest architects which was the reason it was preserved. The vast majority of people would disagree with you on calling it ugly, depressing and uninteresting.

Being designed by a great architect doesn't prevent a building from being ugly.

I realize that my opinion may possibly be in the minority, but so be it. I experienced the Flight Center towards the end of its days, when the interior was inarguably dark and dirty, and arguably depressing. The overall architecture never did anything for me; I guess I'm just not a fan of the potato chip and whipped cream school of design. Oh well.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:16 pm

AND STILL NO PICS!!!!!!
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting william (Reply 78):

All of this arguing but no pics?

Seriously, I thought there would be more when I opened this up, not 57 replies about NYC/PANYNJ, etc...
Lol.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 90):
I think most can agree that the new F in ATL is quite modern and exciting looking.

It's alright. But this...

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 90):
I wouldn't classify the mid-field terminal in DTW as having a warehouse look. Unless your average warehouse has a dancing water display, a light display in the tunnel, graceful arched ceilings, and an indoor train.

Is much better.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 89):
All of the new terminals designed in the United States have the same, boring, overused warehouse look.

They're airports. If anything, I actually kind of dislike the fact that a lot of them are going out of their way to disguise themselves as not being airports.

I'm probably going to be in the minority opinion on this one, but I like the way a lot of the older terminals have a certain "subway station" look to them, (DFW's terms A & C, pre renovation, & IAD's C & D midfield terms are good examples of this). It's not the prettiest, but there is a certain functionality about it and there's no mistaking that you're inside a transportation infrastructure facility. Anyway...

I do like a lot of the new terminals too, but I don't see the need for every airport to go all out trying to out spectacular the next. No one ever says "Well, I was going to go to Seattle, but the airport's too ugly, so... can't."
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24803
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 94):
the main Terminal at Dulles Airport in DC (a brilliant concept for the operations of the time and still a gorgeous and functional building)

I recall from the old usenet days when someone quipped "IAD is proof that great architects don't necessarily understand queuing theory!"...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
sspontak
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

RE: JFK's T3 Is Coming Down

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 77):
If a company / airline really had a good use for the terminal, they would've come to the PANYNJ and expressed that. The fact of the matter is that it served no purpose other than being a "historical object," and would've turned into the next T5, sitting vacant in a space that could've been put to much better use.

It is not like Delta just took over the terminal. Delta operated out of T3 for over 20 years. If it was so important to the preservationists, Delta, a corporation or the Port Authority, they had 20 years to come up with a viable plan to preserve T3. Nobody did and it is time to move into the 21st century. Glad to see the improved T4 is finally here.

There certainly will not be the same historical/preservationist issues when T2 is eventually gone. T2 actually holds some nastalgia for me because this is the terminal my very first flight left from when I was a boy. It was a Delta 727-200 from JFK to MIA way back in Feb 1976. The gate it left from was where the current commuter fligts depart from. Everytime I have an opportunity to fly on Delta from JFK, I try to pass by that gate area and think about my first flight. Once T2 is gone, I will be sad for a moment but I will certainly look forward to using the new T4.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos