Why Does DL Use The A330 On ATL-LIM?

G500 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:16 pm

Walking through the ATL int'l terminal on my way to my gate, I noticed the flight to Lima had an A330 at the gate.

DL uses 767s to GRU, GIG, EZE and SCL.

Why do they use an A330 to Lima???

MesaFlyGuy · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:18 pm

I believe the a330 has more cargo capabilities than the 767s, but don't quote me on that.

peanuts · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:18 pm

My guess is freight.

willzzz88 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Cargo.

A330 like the 777 and 747 allows LD-3 containers to be loaded side by side allowing MASSIVE freight north-bound form Lima (asparagus and other vegetables, commodity exports).

This is also the reason A330's are used on the Europe/Asia routes. There are rumors of other South America routes with heavy cargo (non baggage) being shifted to A330's. It's ideal because it burns less fuel than a 777 as South America and Europe and North-east Asia (ICN/NRT/PEK) don't need the range of a 777

psa1011 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Wouldn't the other cities mentioned be big on freight?

G500 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the other cities mentioned be big on freight?

good point

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 1):
believe the a330 has more cargo capabilities than the 767s, but don't quote me on that.

wouldn't SCL have more cargo revenue than Lima?

roseflyer · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:48 pm

Peru is the top exporter of Asparagus, which is a relatively dense but also expensive crop. It fills up the A330 cargo holds. When DL had the 767 on the Lima route, they often had weight restrictions and bumped passenger seats for cargo. Grapes, Mangoes, Artichokes, and Avocados round out the top 5 exports which all need to be sent via air freight to the US.

steex · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the other cities mentioned be big on freight?

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
good point

Most of those other routes are also bigger on high yielding business pax, so DL tries to prioritize aircraft with a better BE product most of the time. The A330s have just begun mods, so they may not be ideal candidates.

airbazar · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the other cities mentioned be big on freight?

I'm not sure they do but aircraft utilization definitely plays a role. It's worse on those other cities. You need 2 planes to operate SCL/GRU/GIG/EZE, but only one for LIM.

simairlinenet · Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
When DL had the 767 on the Lima route, they often had weight restrictions and bumped passenger seats for cargo.

Indeed, until Delta began its international expansion during bankruptcy, LIM was the only longhaul 764 destination--because it had more cargo capacity than the 763s.

MIflyer12 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:02 pm

From a WSJ article just last year, 'The World's Oddest Air Routes,'

Cargo can also support mainstream flights. Delta flies 22 tons of asparagus on many of its flights from Lima, Peru, to Atlanta.

"http://>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...90444657804578050781305169460.html

juanpedro · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:16 pm

Most of Peru's gold exports leave the country on Delta - not much by volume but lots by weight!

yellowtail · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 7):
Most of those other routes are also bigger on high yielding business pax, so DL tries to prioritize aircraft with a better BE product most of the time.

With regard to LIM...nothing other than cargo drives the aircraft choice there. Every single LIM-ATL flight goes out with a full belly.

steex · Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 12):
With regard to LIM...nothing other than cargo drives the aircraft choice there. Every single LIM-ATL flight goes out with a full belly.

I don't doubt that - my comment was more aimed at the question "why not the 330 on other South American routes?" as opposed to "why the 330 to Lima?"

YYZAMS · Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:00 pm

A few years ago I was bumped off this flight when it was 767-400 LIM-ATL. I was told that I could go on the flight if I had carry-on only, but if I checked a bag I wouldn't get on. The other option was to send my bag Delta cargo by going to the cargo depot. Fortunately, I spoke some Spanish and had to send it cargo. It was only about 70usd, but I had to pick up my bag at the cargo hangar at my location. Of course this is when I was a nonrev.

usflyer msp · Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:04 pm

When I flew to LIM in 2009 it was a 777, so the 330 is actually a downgauge....

1337Delta764 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:15 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 9):
LIM was the only longhaul 764 destination--because it had more cargo capacity than the 763s.

I presume you mean the only international 764 destination; the 764s were used on ATL-HNL which is just as long as several transatlantic routes.

drerx7 · Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:27 pm

The same reason that the first cross-fleeting at UA/CO was UA 763 on IAH-LIM...cargo.

davescj · Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:40 am

As various aircraft go into mods, I suspect we'll see a bit of moving of aircraft around.

Dave

roseflyer · Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 15):

When I flew to LIM in 2009 it was a 777, so the 330 is actually a downgauge....

DL occasionally upgraded to a 777 during peak cargo season since the 767 would routinely leave cargo and go out with empty seats due to payload limitations.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 17):

The same reason that the first cross-fleeting at UA/CO was UA 763 on IAH-LIM...cargo.

I think it was one of the first international routes to be cross fleeted due to cargo demand.

Thenoflyzone · Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 9):
LIM was the only longhaul 764 destination--because it had more cargo capacity than the 763s.

Yes, but the 764 had balance issues out of LIM, issues the 763 didn't have, which is why it didn't last long.

in the 764, large pallets are carried only in the forward bin, which are usually very heavy, explaining the balance issues. It was not uncommon to leave 25 business class seats open for the return to ATL on the 764.

See: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions? (by Transpac787 Dec 31 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-06-28 19:47:56]

SVA402 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:29 am

So on that note, why does American have such limited service to LIM? Being (by far) the largest US carrier to South America, why is lima mostly 757s with a few 767s? Much of American's route structure was first started by Braniff, and made its way via several airlines (namely eastern) to AA, and Braniff had a very large Lima presence, including a crew base. I'm curious what happened to that background.

deltadudejg · Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:38 am

With a 767 your only able to load LD-3s into the forward compartment, and cargo/bag cans into the rear because of the door configuration. The A330 allows LD-3s to be placed in both forward and rear, plus it is a little more versatile for different size LD-3s in both holds.

mayor · Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:20 am

Quoting deltadudejg (Reply 22):
With a 767 your only able to load LD-3s into the forward compartment, and cargo/bag cans into the rear because of the door configuration. The A330 allows LD-3s to be placed in both forward and rear, plus it is a little more versatile for different size LD-3s in both holds.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can load LD-3s front OR rear on a 767, however, they take up the space that would normally be occupied by two LD-2s, with wasted space as a result.

BTW, of those other cities mentioned, I believe that SCL (at least seasonally) ship quite a few salmon to the U.S.

Quoting juanpedro (Reply 11):
Most of Peru's gold exports leave the country on Delta - not much by volume but lots by weight!

I know, we used to get them coming into SLC, once or twice a week, back before I retired.

MaverickM11 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:33 am

Quoting steex (Reply 13):

I don't doubt that - my comment was more aimed at the question "why not the 330 on other South American routes?" as opposed to "why the 330 to Lima?"

Lots of cargo, not a lot of premium traffic. The DL 332 carries lots of cargo, and has one of the lower % premium seats--the non flat bed 332 is 13% BE, while the zillion 767 longhaul configs are 15-17%+/- and don't carry as much cargo. For the longer haul markets SCL/EZE/GIG/GRU, the BE cabin is much more critical than LIM.

[Edited 2013-06-28 22:38:24]

Thenoflyzone · Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting deltadudejg (Reply 22):
With a 767 your only able to load LD-3s into the forward compartment, and cargo/bag cans into the rear because of the door configuration.

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
Unless I'm mistaken, you can load LD-3s front OR rear on a 767, however, they take up the space that would normally be occupied by two LD-2s, with wasted space as a result.

OK. first, dont talk about LD-3 containers when the 767 is designed for LD-2s, and dont mix up pallets with containers.

The 767-300/-300ER/-400ER come standard with a LARGE cargo door in the front right and a STANDARD cargo door in the rear right. There is also a bulk cargo door on the rear left. A standard cargo door in the front is optional on the 767-300 and 400.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sebastian Sowa

Now, the 767 is designed for LD-2 containers, and these can fit side by side either in the front or in the rear cargo compartments.

Pallets, on the other hand, (which tend to be bigger and heavier than an LD-2 container) can only be loaded in the front from the LARGE cargo door.

the 763 can hold 4 pallets in the front, or 16 LD-2 containers plus some bulk. In the rear, it's 14 LD-2s and/or bulk.

This also explains why the 764 had balance issues out LIM. Combine the extra lenght of the 764 with the fact that pallets only go in the front, and you understand what i was talking about earlier.

As for LD-3s, they should fit in the front or the rear, but obvioulsy it's not ideal for the 767, since you will lose space for properly fitting LD-2s.

Hope this helps.

Look at pages 34 and down.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/767sec2.pdf

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-06-29 08:11:04]

DL_Mech · Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:10 pm

They're rare, but some 767-300ERs were built with a small forward cargo door.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Groot

Thenoflyzone · Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 26):

yes, it was optional. Didn't know of any operator of the kind until now

Thenoflyzone

mayor · Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 25):

Well, before you berate me again.......there have been cases where it WAS necessary so send an LD-3 out on a 767.....for instance, a shipper loaded container that was going beyond a gateway via L-1011......happened to us quite often in SLC. Amazing what happens in the "real" world as opposed to what's printed in manuals, etc.

AR326 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:14 pm

I don't know about some of the other South American destinations, but DL also send an A330 to EZE

questions · Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:42 pm

Didn't DL fairly recently state they are interested in acquiring several more wide body aircraft. Could they be looking for second hand A330s for this purpose?

1337Delta764 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 30):

Didn't DL fairly recently state they are interested in acquiring several more wide body aircraft. Could they be looking for second hand A330s for this purpose?

Or UA's 764ERs, which DL can buy for much less money than any A330 on the market.

flyiguy · Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 3):

When I worked at UA at IAD, PEK was always full of freight inbound from PEK but outbound was full of empty LD3s and stacks of pallet boards.

FLY

Tan Flyr · Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
Grapes, Mangoes, Artichokes, and Avocados round out the top 5 exports which all need to be sent via air freight to the US.

Not quite all Roseflyer..being in that business, most of the heavy, less perishable and less expensive fruit goes by vessel to Philadelphia/ Wilmington, or Long beach, CA. Avocados, and Table Grapes (contra seasonal to California) arrive by vessel from numerous ports in Chile..and grapes, Apples and pears from Argentina as well. Mangos from Brasil all arrive by vessel also. Asparagus is fairly perishable and expensive, and the food service trade for that item is pretty demanding.

Believe it or not, retailers less so. Controlled or Modified atmospheres in newer high-tech refrigerated sea containers make long distance shipping of these items (and others) by vessel a better economic choice. Cherries and berries from Chile & Argentina will continue to be flown to the US during their respective seasons.

The airlines will continue to do well with that business. We just wish that AA would put at least 1 767 rt daily on MIA-SJU for expedited shipments of those items from California. maybe after the merger someone will see the money they have left on the cargo table on that route.

CV880 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 25):

the 763 can hold 4 pallets in the front, or 16 LD-2 containers plus some bulk. In the rear, it's 14 LD-2s and/or bulk.

Can also hold LD-8 containers/FQA (LD-8) pallets which are equivalent to double wide LD-2's, The FQA pallets can also fit in the rear of the 763 or 764, but in the 764 the aft weight is still never enough to compensate for 5 (P96) fully loaded pallets in the front. Flights that I have worked on both DL & HA (before 2005) utilized the LD8's liberally, esp when the 50# bag weight restrictions were not in effect. We always used LD-8's for HA 767's.

FlyASAGuy2005 · Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting juanpedro (Reply 11):
Most of Peru's gold exports leave the country on Delta - not much by volume but lots by weight!

And GDL! I've seen upwards of 22,000lbs of gold come out of a DL 757.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
Yes, but the 764 had balance issues out of LIM, issues the 763 didn't have, which is why it didn't last long.

in the 764, large pallets are carried only in the forward bin, which are usually very heavy, explaining the balance issues. It was not uncommon to leave 25 business class seats open for the return to ATL on the 764.

See: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions? (by Transpac787 Dec 31 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-06-28 19:47:56]

Interesting topic!! THat CALMSP guy was very adiment in his thinking that DL just didn'tknow what they were doing. I didn't have access then but I do now. Balance and MLW is usually the primary issue when a flight out of LIM is payload optimized. On the days when Business doesn't sell very well, they will pack the forward hold until it bursts. Problem with this is that you can't add much more wight upstarts in Business Elite. And since coach is already booked full, no non-revs.

I ALMOST got left behind in NRT for this very reason last year. I was the very last to be cleared and the almost didn't give me a BE seat and the front went out with 8 or 9 open.

rwy04lga · Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 35):

That's what's keeping me from going there. I've heard that certain cargo ops are closed on ...day, so it's easier getting out that night on Delta. Can anyone confirm/deny/provide other options?

FlyASAGuy2005 · Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 36):

You're still talking about LIM right? Or NRT?

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