N908AW
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
I wondered how long it would take before this comment showed up, PHX will be seeing more high temp days as our planets climates continue to change, decades from now it'll be more than 2 a year, that is realism.

I think you are monumentally underestimating how much worse the NYC hubs and ORD are in terms of weather. Phoenix, on average, records 36 days per year of precipitation. LaGuardia records 119. One out of three days.

In terms of reliability there are probably not too many hubs that are more consistent with weather than PHX. They don't get snow. They quite literally get less rain than any other hub in the U.S. They don't get the storms that the southeast hubs get except for a few weeks in the summer during "monsoon season." They don't get hurricanes. They have the occasional haboob, and have a handful of windy days sprinkled around, but that's about it.

Plus, I think the hub landscape right now proves that the big three/four airlines are willing to put up with unreliable hubs if the revenue is there.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
The A330 can do in excess of MTOW off all runways except 06L/24R at 33 degC out of LAX nil wind std pressure. I do not have PHX in the database, it will do 228 t out of RUH which has around 850 ft higher elevation, and 230 t out of ONT which is slightly lower at 43 degC nil wind std pressure. It will do over 235t at 40 degC in ONT.

ONT may be the better proxy for PHX in terms of elevation and temperature. It looks like RUH has a lot more runway to offset higher elevation - and I don't have the training to address those effects specifically. ONT would let me avoid the complications so I appreciate that reference.

I was just trying to frame the loss of carrying capacity from PHX (a little farther to NRT, a little higher, a lot hotter on summer average) compared to LAX.
 
777fan
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
737 fleet was certified to max 121 degrees.

I'm assuming that applied to their 732s which probably needed a runway as long as the Bonneville Salt Flats; what is the current rating for most NG variants (a la what WN and UA run in/out of there)?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
Sounds like a reason, any carrier should think about using PHX as a big hub of operations.

I'm guessing cost and demand are probably 1 and 1a on the list of considerations.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 31):
According to the local news, some foreign carriers ha to push departures back into the evening, because of the heat, bit no specific airlines were mentioned. More than likely, this would have applied to BA, VA, Condor or KAL.

Oh the horror of having to spend a few extra hours in Las Vegas! Pretty sure even the A-gates in T1 are more exciting than wherever most people are returning to.

777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 52):
Oh the horror of having to spend a few extra hours in Las Vegas! Pretty sure even the A-gates in T1 are more exciting than wherever most people are returning to.

I have actually won money on the airport slot machines at LAS during a delay/ cancellation......the wheel of fortune game  
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 53):

That seems to be the game that keep on giving...I know of several people winning good money on it!
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
CWAFlyer
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 19):
I would have thought that airlines and manufacturers would have figured out how to certify for those times when temperatures exceed 50C. They've had since 1992 or whenever it was when PHX set its record and the airport closed for half day. I remember it well. I was biking to work! Figure that out, and PHX is no worse for hub operations than any other challenging weather situation elsewhere.

The ISA +35 limit for the RJ's has to do with avionics and other instruments that are EFIS type. Not about lift or engine performance.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:32 am

I remember working the ramp for several years in LAS. When it was 110 outside, it was easily 125 on the tarmac. I know for a fact that I wouldn't last 8 hours on the ramp in those temps today.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
D L X
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25):
I wondered how long it would take before this comment showed up, PHX will be seeing more high temp days as our planets climates continue to change, decades from now it'll be more than 2 a year, that is realism.

PHX will still never have as many heat delays as EWR has snow delays and as SFO has fog delays and as DFW/IAH/STL/ORD has thunderstorm delays and as DCA has President flying nearby delays, and I could go on.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 26):
They had to depart 7L full length instead to take advantage of a 0.9% grade downhill while arrivals were landing 25L.

WOW!!

I'm sure that would have been a pretty amazing sight. I'm going to be on that flight in a couple weeks, so I now I'm going to have to pay attention to the temperature forecast.
 
rampart
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 53):
I have actually won money on the airport slot machines at LAS during a delay/ cancellation......the wheel of fortune game

The ONLY time I've come away with more money than I came in with at Lost Wages was at the airport. But not much: afforded a lavish dinner one time, and lavish meant I could get an appetizer and a beer along with dinner.   

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 48):
It reached 119F at PHX yesterday afternoon, that kind of temp is rare but not unheard of. June into July is typically the hottest time of the summer with many days getting to 110 or more. I have to say that global warming has nothing to do with this heat we are having, its a desert and it gets hot here, we didn't even breach the record high of 122 set back in 1990. I have lived in the PHX area for some 20 years and I remember many days that were in the 110-115 range.

   Probably true. However, if the frequency of these extreme temperatures increases (more per year, more records broken per time), that would probably be a global warming signal. Will take a few years or more to set this year's anomalies in perspective, though we already have the previous 20 years in perspective, for instance.

-Rampart
 
Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:05 pm

How much more of a penalty do the CRJ-200s take as opposed to the CRJ-900s? I have read that the CR2s are less capable during any form of weather or oddity.
I call the dusty desert my home. :)
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:18 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
So PHX gets grounded for 2 hours a day, maybe 3 days a year. How many days is ORD or EWR not in a ground delay/stop?

IROPS at such airports as EWR, BOS, DCA,LGA,JFK,MDW,ORD,SFO to name a few are when there is no thunderstorms, lightening, or fog!

Quoting divemaster08 (Reply 43):
And the temps on the ramp can feel a lot hotter with all the movement going on down on the ramps. We down here get temps just around 90F, but down on the ramp in the beating sun, its well over 100!
And in much of the country throw in a nasty dose of humidity. Here in Baltimore (BWI) the added humidity with the heat can have a heat index from 115 degrees and higher. Temps in the 90's with humidity levels exceeding 40%! Our rampers keep GAtoraide in business. I give them props. Though I workout, myself on the ramp would be the stuff of a bad B-Movie comedy blockbuster!


I wonder also how the Packs handle this temperature change. Could be in risk of getting ducts overheating also with these mad temps!

I've noticed on 717, 737 and back in the day 727 flights the pacs will be turned off or down on takeoff but for a very short time. Now, if we are talking about ground air then we are dealing with an entirely different animal. At BWI, the ground air more often then not is DOA.

[quote=ozark1,reply=45]And the temps on the ramp can feel a lot hotter with all the movement going on down on the ramps. We down here get temps just around 90F, but down on the ramp in the beating sun, its well over 100!
See my sage comments noted above.
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ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:36 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 55):

Quoting rampart (Reply 19):
I would have thought that airlines and manufacturers would have figured out how to certify for those times when temperatures exceed 50C. They've had since 1992 or whenever it was when PHX set its record and the airport closed for half day. I remember it well. I was biking to work! Figure that out, and PHX is no worse for hub operations than any other challenging weather situation elsewhere.

The ISA +35 limit for the RJ's has to do with avionics and other instruments that are EFIS type. Not about lift or engine performance.

Which also in the case of PHX (1,100' field elevation) also means ISA is not 15*C but slightly below 13*C...

the limit hits at slightly under 48* C or roughly 118.4* F
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
B757capt
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

The fleet is now capable of 126 degrees F.
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lightsaber
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:51 am

Does everyone realize how *expensive* it is to flight test an aircraft at hot and cold conditions? The A380 had to chase cold temperatures and *repeat* cold weather certification to reduce its minimum cold temperature.

The same is true of hot or cold temperatures. Planes must proves sans passengers the extremes. The *only* exception I'm aware of are antarctic flights with the BT-67 (turboprop conversion of the DC-3) and that is because lives can be on the line if its too cold to fly and the only way to find out if the plane can take it is to continue with the flight. (But that is all researchers and thus subject to signing the waiver.)

And also true of cross wind certification... No extrapolation outside of the tested box allowed. It must be proven.

Also, does anyone have a link to CRJ performance with temperature? I didn't find them quickly Googling... (Thanks in advance.)

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Thread starter):
US Airways has stopped RJ flying in PHX as of 1500 due to high temperatures as CRJ performance charts stop at 117.7 degrees. It is currently 118 at PHX.

Oops! Sort of amusing.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
I think -40 is the CRJ's lowest certified operating temperature.

Now that is ironic...

Quoting cornutt (Reply 4):
Is it a function of engine power or lift that makes them not able to fly at these temperatures?

I'm curious to that too... the CRJ, IIRC, has a higher wing loading, so it could be that the takeoff performance deteriorated too much to make it worth certifying... But I speculate.

Quoting ely747 (Reply 14):
Why is this the case? One would assume performance charts of all plane makers are standardized by the ICAO.

  

You are required to certify to > 7,000ft (I forget what is the exact altitude) and to 86F. Everything above 86F (30C) is gravy... Now, few if any airlines will buy a plane not certified to 114F (45.5C), but few will have the need.

Pratt typically designs engines to 125F, but that is their 'standard work.' No ICAO requirement. Why 125F? Its simply too rare to see above that. (Something like 99.99% day in the hottest place on Earth, Death Valley. Yes, I'm aware of the debate of invalidated data from Libya... )

Quoting rampart (Reply 19):
I would have thought that airlines and manufacturers would have figured out how to certify for those times when temperatures exceed 50C.

Why for all airliners? Oh, they engineers aim for 125F (51.67C) or 50C, but that is a goal. Temperatures above 114F are very rare in aviation and to certify that temperature one must fly in that temperature! Apparently Bombardier tested 117.7F and said 'good enough.' Judging by their sales, so did their customers...

Lightsaber
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:15 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 57):
PHX will still never have as many heat delays as EWR has snow delays and as SFO has fog delays and as DFW/IAH/STL/ORD has thunderstorm delays and as DCA has President flying nearby delays, and I could go on.

Absolutely true. I am sure EWR, JFK, BOS, ORD have more snow delays alone than PHX has weather issues every year! Plus its only a few hours till it cools off its not like the airport is closing. In February that one storm cancelled over 4,000 flights at EWR, LGA, JFK and BOS alone! PHX actually has good weather for a hub.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting b757capt (Reply 2):
All CRJs have been grounded. They are not certified to fly above temps 117 (48C) and higher.
Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 8):
To the best of my knowledge -40C and ISA+35(ish) are the temp limits for most airliners. I'm sure some have different limitations but in my experience these seem to be common numbers.

Would turbo-props fare any better in these excessive heat weather conditions?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting b757capt (Reply 62):
The fleet is now capable of 126 degrees F.

How?!? That is 1F above most engines/tires certs.

I'd like to know more. Seriously. My employer has parts on the engines and that is HOT!

Links please...

Lightsaber
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Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 65):

Mesa operated several Dash-8s in PHX for flights to Yuma and Flagstaff, among a few other destinations, so I would imagine they function fine, but I don't know the specific limits.
I call the dusty desert my home. :)
 
opethfan
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 65):
Would turbo-props fare any better in these excessive heat weather conditions?

According to some posts higher up, the issue isn't engine related but avionics. If the avionics on a prop such as a Dash 8 or ATR-72 are the same, then the same limits would apply (theoretically).
 
KarlB737
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting opethfan (Reply 68):
the issue isn't engine related but avionics.

My thinking was centered on if less lift might be required during the hotter conditions on the typical turbo-prop. Since they require less runway for takeoff during normal conditions I felt that might assist their value in these excessive conditions.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:31 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 40):
Hey, I was just being silly. I damn near spit out my beer when I read that, not because I don't believe you but because that's incredible!

I didn't look up the wind for that day, but considering it was September, it was probably a strong, hot wind from the Northeast.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 47):
catastrophic earthquakes (LAX, SFO, SEA)

Also, Labor Unrest at LAX has partially disrupted ground access twice in the last few years.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
PSAjet17
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:40 pm

I contacted Bombardier and received the following from the Director CRJ Programs:

OAT limits for Take-Off and Landing on all CRJ products is ISA + 15 Deg.C. At sea level, this is 50 Deg. C (or 122 Deg. F).
For airports at higher altitudes, there is a correction for ISA for every 1,000 feet of Pressure Altirude, it’s about 2 degrees per 1,000 ft. of altitude.
So for an airport at 1,000 ft. of Pressure Altitude, ISA would be 13 Deg. C, and the maximum Take-Off temperature would be 48 Deg. C. (or 118.4 Deg.).
At Pheonix (KPHX) which is at 1,135 ft. (aerodrome) I would use 48 Deg. C.
 
studedave
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RE: Too HOT For RJ's IN PHX

Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 21):
No but 120F is an issue for the rampers. Pretty hard to expect people to function at a hard work pace at those temps for extended periods of time.

But the US NAVY does it everyday in the Gulf-- with major humidity to boot!!!
The best 'adventure' is when you are on a Carrier and have the catapults adding to it.
Been there, done that- more times then I'd like to think about, thanks!!!




StudeDave
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