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readytotaxi
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Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:27 pm

This seems to have had little interest, EADS & RR have drawn up plans for a small airliner that would produce 75% less carbon dioxide. Its propulsion would work similar to the Toyota Prius.

Source : Sunday Times. UK

It is called the E-Thrust project. The goal to transport 120 passengers for a flight of 2h 30m.
The planes propulsion is provided by 6 electrical fans along the back of the wings, a large engine powered by bio fuel would generate power which is then stored in an on board battery, the bio fuel would be made from micro-algae which contains eight times less hydrocarbons than kerosene.
EADS says that it will be ready to take to the skies in 18-20 years time.
Your thoughts?
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brilondon
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:53 pm

This could be the future of air travel as we know it. Sounds like the 100 seat aircraft that is what will be required to replace all those regional aircraft. It would be expensive to operate as the fuel would be expensive to purchase as it would be the only airliner to operate with such a fuel. That would be one of my reservations, and may be a detraction for airlines who would operate such aircraft.
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LH707330
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
The planes propulsion is provided by 6 electrical fans along the back of the wings, a large engine powered by bio fuel would generate power which is then stored in an on board battery, the bio fuel would be made from micro-algae which contains eight times less hydrocarbons than kerosene.

What is meant by "eight times less hydrocarbons?" Do they plan to have a less carbonaceous molecule structure, or will it basically resemble kerosene and that number reflects a reduction in life-cycle CO2 output that someone in marketing pitched as "less hydrocarbons?"
 
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Aesma
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:29 pm

I think it's just because it's carbon taken out of the atmosphere (or output of a plant burning something).

The only way hybrid makes sense is if less energy is consumed overall, the source of that energy doesn't matter much, by that time "biofuel" might be in the same ballpark as kerosene. If using traditional (improved) turbofans/turboprops is as efficient, then no need for hybrid. Hybrid in cars works because a car engine/gearbox can't be efficient at all speeds, an airplane doesn't really have that concern. On the other hand weight (of engine, batteries, etc.) is much more of a concern.
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DocLightning
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:05 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Hybrid in cars works because a car engine/gearbox can't be efficient at all speeds, an airplane doesn't really have that concern. On the other hand weight (of engine, batteries, etc.) is much more of a concern.

Actually, it does. Engine size is dictated not by cruise thrust but by takeoff thrust. It's difficult to design an engine that is equally efficient at takeoff thrust and cruise thrust. This gets around that problem by using electricity at cruise and combustion at takeoff. Electric motors are more efficient across their power range than combustion engines of any sort.

Another option would be simply to use a fuel cell to crack the biofuel and electrochemically produce electricity for an electric fan motor. I just wonder whether they will be able to make the drive units small enough.

Currently, a drive unit of that power (of a sort that would be mounted on a ship) looks like this:


With higher frequencies and voltages, I'm sure they can be made smaller, but to put out the kind of power-for-weight performance that an airplane requires, we need some advances.
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TempestDriver
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:40 pm

Battery technology is not up to this kind of use and may never be. Airliners become more efficient as their average density decreases, which is largely why an A380 is more efficient than a 747-8; if you add batteries you reduce the aircraft's density and efficiency goes out the window. More than anything else I expect that airliners of the future will burn different fuels rather than carrying around loads of batteries. Airbus received a far more realistic idea via their annual ideas competition this year, which involves carrying alternate fuel in pods under wings.
 
planemaker
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:12 am

Since no one has linked to any official info, below is RR's press release:

Rolls-Royce works with EADS on advanced hybrid distributed propulsion concept for future airliners

Tuesday, 18 June 2013

Rolls-Royce and EADS are showing a new power concept for advanced future airliners at the Paris Air Show this week, which could help reduce CO2 emissions, make less noise and dramatically reduce fuel burn by the middle of the century.

Such an airliner would be powered by a serial hybrid propulsion system, which is similar in concept to the technology found in a growing number of energy efficient motor cars. Propulsion is provided by six electrically-driven fans distributed along the wing span in clusters of three.

A single, large advanced gas turbine generates electrical power which is stored in an advanced energy storage system that could be based on Lithium-air energy storage technology. During climb the distributed fans draw power from the energy storage system, but during descent, they act like wind turbines to generate electrical energy which re-charges the batteries.

For the megaWatt range power levels that an electrical distributed propulsion network requires, a new high-power superconducting electrical system will have to be designed and validated based on cryogenic cooling at temperatures as low as -252ºC.

A major benefit of the distributed propulsion system is that it can be integrated into the airframe's structure to maximise aerodynamic efficiency and optimise the airflow around it. This reduces the aircraft's weight, drag and the amount of noise it makes.

Ric Parker, Director for Research & Technology at Rolls-Royce, said: "The conceptual airliner with the E-Thrust distributed propulsion architecture demonstrates the sort of futuristic thinking backed by solid research and emerging technologies that will lead to a real step-change in airliner design. This in turn would result in a significant reduction in the environmental impact of aviation."

A model of the E-Thrust concept aircraft and its innovative power system can be seen within the EADS Innovations Works exhibit (EADS Pavilion, Chalet row A) at the Paris Air Show. The E-Thrust concept is part of the on-going Distributed Electrical Aerospace Propulsion (DEAP) project which is co-funded by the UK's Technology Strategy Board and, in addition to Rolls-Royce and EADS Innovation Works, involves the Universities of Cranfield and Cambridge.

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http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/eads-e-thrust.jpg
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http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/eads-e-thrust-7.jpg
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http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/eads-e-thrust-10.jpg
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whiplash
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:09 am

Looks like something out of a beautiful dream.   
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cmf
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:34 am

This is just the natural continuation of what they displayed two years ago.

"It was developed by Siemens, EADS and Diamond Aircraft of Austria with a goal of reducing fuel consumption and emissions by 25 percent. It carries a serial hybrid drive that turns the aircraft's prop with a Siemens 70kW electric motor. An onboard 40-hp Wankel rotary engine provided by Austro Engine serves as a generator (only) and kicks in to keep the batteries, provided by EADS, fed."
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...paris_air_show_estar_204867-1.html
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Francoflier
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:47 pm

The ideas of batteries and aircraft seems unlikely at best. There will have to be leaps and bounds in battery technology before they're light enough to not incur severe payload restrictions.
Advanced fuel cells are probably the way to go if they are to fly electric airplanes.

I'd much rather see more research done in the field of alternate and sustainable liquid (or gas) hydrocarbon fuels instead.
Wide scale algae based production for instance.
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Avi8r747
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:09 pm

I think the door on the model needs to be bigger   
 
planemaker
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
The ideas of batteries and aircraft seems unlikely at best. There will have to be leaps and bounds in battery technology before they're light enough to not incur severe payload restrictions.
Advanced fuel cells are probably the way to go if they are to fly electric airplanes.

I'd much rather see more research done in the field of alternate and sustainable liquid (or gas) hydrocarbon fuels instead.
Wide scale algae based production for instance.

They are talking about mid-century so lots of time to have "leaps and bounds." In fact, BMW already expects to have Lithium-air batteries powering some of their eCars before 2020.
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Aesma
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Actually, it does. Engine size is dictated not by cruise thrust but by takeoff thrust. It's difficult to design an engine that is equally efficient at takeoff thrust and cruise thrust. This gets around that problem by using electricity at cruise and combustion at takeoff. Electric motors are more efficient across their power range than combustion engines of any sort.

Sure, but the system will not be 100% efficient either. Then depending on how the batteries are charged before take-off, it might make even less sense (dirty coal fired power plant anyone ?).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
planemaker
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
Then depending on how the batteries are charged before take-off, it might make even less sense (dirty coal fired power plant anyone ?).

First, as per RR's press release, the time frame is around the "middle of the century." Coal fired plants will be few and far between (if any) by then. Second, the Li-air batteries are charged by "a single, large advanced gas turbine powered by bio-fuel. In addition, during descent, the distributed fans "act like wind turbines to generate electrical energy which re-charges the batteries."
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
cmf
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
Sure, but the system will not be 100% efficient either. Then depending on how the batteries are charged before take-off, it might make even less sense (dirty coal fired power plant anyone ?).

How about reading the articles    25% less fuel is big. Doesn't matter that they don't reach 100% and there is no suggestion about coal fired plant even though it likely would be both more efficient and less polluting than jet engines.
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spink
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RE: Paris Airshow. "The Hybrid" Airliner

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:08 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
The ideas of batteries and aircraft seems unlikely at best. There will have to be leaps and bounds in battery technology before they're light enough to not incur severe payload restrictions.
Advanced fuel cells are probably the way to go if they are to fly electric airplanes.

Graphene SuperCaps/batteries will provide not only the power capacity required in the weight required, they will also have the capability to almost fully charge within a typical plane turn around time. In fact the limitation with charging speeds for graphene batteries will be having a charging infrastructure/wiring that can charge at the speed you want.

The bigger issue for a serial hybrid airplane is not the battery tech but the engine tech required. Currently there isn't a field that requires high power output electric motors that are extremely light weight. It is a bit of an emerging field.

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