Fastphilly
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SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:34 am

Hello folks, I'm wondering if you guys familiar with SFO during the early 1980's can answer me these questions since I wasn't old enough back then to know the ins and outs of flight ops.

First, living near the flight path in upper San Bruno I always remembered in the afternoon and evenings most domestic traffic used the 28's for departures. It's been quite a long time now that domestics depart on the 1's no matter what time of day it is. I had a view of the runways from my bedroom window (paradise as a child) in the early 80's and can vividly remember morning domestic departures using the 1's and afternoon/evening using the 28's including international heavies which has never changed. Any idea why the 28's have been ditched for domestic departures compared to those early 80's days?

Also, can you please tell me where Pan Am flew the SFO 747SP traffic?

I remember seeing KE, CI, and CAAC operating 747SPs from SFO but those destinations are easier to identify obviously.
 
timz
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:46 am

Presumably west winds tend to come up in the afternoon, but my recollection is that runways 1 were usual for flights light enough for them, then as now. No doubt people in SSF disliked the noise then, same as now.

PA 5 to HKG left noonish as I recall, and sometimes? Always? PA 6 continued HKG-SFO-JFK.also noonish. Don't recall how often PA had a SYD-SFO nonstop 747SP, but likely the return was after dark?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):
Also, can you please tell me where Pan Am flew the SFO 747SP traffic?

It varied by date.

SFO-HKG was always a SP.

Also LAX-AKL/SYD often had a SFO tag on the SP

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):
Any idea why the 28's have been ditched for domestic departures compared to those early 80's days?

Taxi time and focus on fuel burn. Why go to 28s when performance off 01s is adequate.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
as739x
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:25 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):
Any idea why the 28's have been ditched for domestic departures compared to those early 80's days?



The 1's have been the primary calm wind departure runways for domestic departures for as long as they have been around. There was a thread a few weeks back about even a 747 of PanAm that had to use the 1R for departure in the late 70's and had an almost a horific outcome.

The 1's have been primary for domestic for noise abatement ,as you obviously know they launch over the water. You get a lot of 28 departures this time of year with the afternoon winds picking up around 1500 to 2000.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
SFO-HKG was always a SP.



I believe Tokyo was also a SP destination at the end.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
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Aaron747
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Thread starter):
Any idea why the 28's have been ditched for domestic departures compared to those early 80's days?

They haven't been - it's just that, as others have said, when the winds are blowing through the San Bruno gap down the 28s at 20+ knots with gusts well over 30, it's not really suitable to running departures off the 1s.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Fastphilly
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:21 pm

Did Qantas fly the SP to SFO in the early 80's? Since the departures were at night I could never confirm if it was a 742 or 747SP.
 
Qantas59
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:05 pm

Qantas did fly the SP-38 to SFO when they had the SYD-SFO nonstop 1987-1990.
Cheers.
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phishphan70
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 3):
There was a thread a few weeks back about even a 747 of PanAm that had to use the 1R for departure in the late 70's and had an almost a horific outcome

Any link to that thread? With a length of 8,646', i'd be interested in seeing where that plane was headed and get an idea of fuel load on board. I have watched countless NCA and KE 747F's (200 and 400) taking off from 1R, and my guess is they are headed to LAX or ANC empty, because they always lift off like a rocket!
 
as739x
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:10 pm

It was headed to Tokyo and had a late runway change (1971)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_845

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl_wXfSwRzM Quoting phishphan70 (Reply 7):
I have watched countless NCA and KE 747F's (200 and 400) taking off from 1R, and my guess is they are headed to LAX or ANC empty, because they always lift off like a rocket!

NCA use to have mid-afternoon departure to LAX that used 1L. That was a blast to see! Unfortunately both NCA and KE arrive from LAX now and continue to Asia from here.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
timz
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:09 am

I've got a slide of a JL 744 departing 19L, presumably to Tokyo, and a Tower 747 to JFK off 19R.
 
as739x
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting timz (Reply 9):

Got ya beat buddy. Have a video on my iPhone of a SQ 77W departing 19R last winter. Taken from the Bart Garage. My jaw dropped when he lined up on 19L and didn't taxi across to 19R.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Fastphilly
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting phishphan70 (Reply 7):
because they always lift off like a rocket!

Not lately. It seems NCA has a lower climb rate similar to other 744 ops taking off from the 28s these days. I remember JL flights on their 747s were steep climbers too.

That Pan Am that used the 1s must have been empty or was on a short hop to LAX because having a view of the runways from my bedroom window from 1983-1985 747's would use almost every bit of the 28s length on takeoff.
 
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legacyins
Posts: 1960
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 11):

A quick search on google or yahoo will tell you that the PA was a 747-121 and the route was LAX-SFO-NRT with 218 paxs and crew.

1R is 8648 ft in lenghth and I have seen KL 744, AF 744 and JL 77W take off from that runway. If the winds are favorable and the weight is right, a large aircraft would have no problem using 1R.
 
Fastphilly
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RE: SFO Departure Patterns

Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:59 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 12):

I agree and yes I have seen KL 744s use 1R on several occasions but I'm almost positive the 744 fully loaded can utilize less runway for takeoff compared to the first generation 747s fully loaded.

I don't know all the technical details, but as a youngster when the SPs, 747-100 and 200's took off their climb rate was much more shallow compared to their 744s brethren.

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