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OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:13 pm

Hello all,

Part 3 has become quite long. Subsequently part 4 is being created in order to make it easier for members to find new information and to continue the discussion of this unfortunate event.

Part 1 can be found here: OZ 777 Crashes At SFO (by FlyDeltaJets Jul 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Part 2 can be found here: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 2 (by moderators Jul 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Part 3 can be found here: OZ 777 Crash Part 3 (by moderators Jul 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)


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Our thoughts go out to all onboard the aircraft.

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PHX787
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:18 pm

So we have a grand total of 2 dead...... someone on the other thread said 3...... this article has some good up to date information

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...rline-crash-san-francisco/2495099/
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PanAm1971
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:19 pm

I just heard the ATC recording from the event. Who is the tower controller on the recording? A total pro. Impressive.
 
trnswrld
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:24 pm

^^^ I thoight the same thing and agree 100%. I know he was just doing his job but he sounded VERY good during that time when he probably just witnessed a triple seven bite the dust. Congrats to an amazing job by everyone involved including the flight crew!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:24 pm

I wonder where the initial thread on this crash is linked. It's had 546,000 views since it was locked, and it's still the #1 thread on the a.net home page 20 hours after it was started.
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jgarrido
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:34 pm

Acording to USA Today Asian's CEO has ruled out mechanical failure. That'll save the NTSB some time.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...ncisco-airport-boeing-777/2496275/

[Edited 2013-07-07 07:35:03]
 
na
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...rline-crash-san-francisco/2495099/

Those graphics, and especially the line drawings are awfully crude, and the 777 is obviously a 767.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
So we have a grand total of 2 dead...... someone on the other thread said 3...... this article has some good up to date information

I like how the infographic at the top of the article describes the tail as "sheered off." It's good to see that proofreading is a valued function at major publications. Speed above accuracy, right?

The same infographic shows that the actual flight path deviated considerably from the filed flight plan. If this is correct, I'd like to hear from our professional pilots here as to what, if anything, this means.
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Web500sjc
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 5):

No that is just the CEO trying to save face, and say that the airplanes are safe because they are maintained, the CEO only knows that an airplane crashed and the names of all on board. I'll wait for the NTSB to release their report before the actual cause is confirmed.


My opinion is it takes a bit more then botching a landing to land 400 feet short of the threshold and a full 1400 feet short of the touchdown zone.
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multimark
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 3):
^^^ I thoight the same thing and agree 100%. I know he was just doing his job but he sounded VERY good during that time when he probably just witnessed a triple seven bite the dust. Congrats to an amazing job by everyone involved including the flight crew!

Cabin crew or flight crew? At this point we don't know if it was pilot error, so a bit premature to congratulate the flight crew IMHO.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 9):
Cabin crew or flight crew? At this point we don't know if it was pilot error, so a bit premature to congratulate the flight crew IMHO.

Given various first hand testimonies I've read so far, it seems like the mix of Korean and Thai cabin crew did a bang up job, helping people evacuate despite being badly injured themselves and blocking compromised exits, one of them getting injured in the process of keeping panicked passengers away from opening the exit.

Flight crew on the other hand, I'm not clear on what happened during the last minute or so of the flight before impact. Its way to early determine anything yet, and the NTSB will shed light on that soon enough, I'm sure.
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CF-CPI
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:04 pm

We have word now that the two fatalities were 16-yo Chinese students who were traveling as part of a larger group of 25. They were found outside the aircraft. With the rear pressure bulkhead appearing to be attached to the fuselage, I'd be curious as to whether these two students were really thrown from the plane during the crash sequence. Though some witnesses reported people be forcibly ejected during the crash, I'd like confirmation, and a clearer picture of just what openings in the fuselage would allow this. The reports that I read did not indicate exactly where the two were seated, or whether the whole group of students were seated together.
 
squad55
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:05 pm

Interesting photo from the NTSB from inside the aircraft. Looks like some of the seats broke off inside?

http://inagist.com/all/353779808527872000/


Squad
 
SA7700
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
I wonder where the initial thread on this crash is linked. It's had 546,000 views since it was locked, and it's still the #1 thread on the a.net home page 20 hours after it was started.

Hi Westy,

You can access that thread by following this link:

OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 1 (by FlyDeltaJets Jul 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,

SA7700
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chrisnh
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 7):
No that is just the CEO trying to save face, and say that the airplanes are safe because they are maintained, the CEO only knows that an airplane crashed and the names of all on board. I'll wait for the NTSB to release their report before the actual cause is confirmed.

The CEO has decided that he needs to throw SOMEONE under the bus...crew of this flight or maintenance back home. In my view, he ought to let investigators do their jobs because, politically, he just created a problem within his company by commenting as he did.

[Edited 2013-07-07 08:10:49]
 
famfflores
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:12 pm

These grass marks appears to be caused by the right wing tip, immediately after 1st contact with seawall. Plane should have been already a little to right, with left wing higher than right, before crash. see blue arrows.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 13):
You can access that thread by following this link:

Oh I realize where it is, I was just wondering aloud where outside of a.net the thread is linked. To have over half a million hits since it was locked, far more than the subsequent threads, seems odd.
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RayChuang
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm

I think it appears the problem is more and more that of pilot error, in my humble opinion.

What could have saved the plane was maybe a three-axis GPS guidance system, which should provide accuracy in regards to longitude, latitude and (in this case) especially altitude to at least within 30 feet (my guess is that GPS receivers on airplanes should accuracy within 15-20 feet). When properly programmed in, a 777 should have able to land completely automatically with pretty good accuracy just by going with GPS signals from at minimum six satellites. If the flight crew of OZ 214 tried to land the plane manually by essentially visual guidance, that might explain why the plane had such a steep final descent and the pilots couldn't get the plane to accelerate before impact, in my humble opinion! (And I do mean in my humble opinion.)

(By the way, remember a proposal many years ago from the FAA that allowed airliners during final descent to use a steeper angle during the first part of the descent then level off to a lower descent rate as the plane approaches the runway threshold? This accident is (in my opinion) why that whole idea is not a good one, even though it helped in noise abatement.)
 
houstondallas
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
I wonder where the initial thread on this crash is linked. It's had 546,000 views since it was locked, and it's still the #1 thread on the a.net home page 20 hours after it was started.

Reddit
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:19 pm

NTSB has this Twitter picture of Greg Smith working with the two recorders of OZ214.

Let's see what they find, I guess we can expect a preliminary report very son...

https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/353891249230585856/photo/1

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jbmitt
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 14):
The CEO has decided that he needs to throw SOMEONE under the bus...crew of this flight or maintenance back home. In my view, he ought to let investigators do their jobs because, politically, he just created a problem within his company by commenting as he did.

I think it is more as an act of humility and they aren't pointing fingers. There is a picture floating around of the Asiana executives bowing at the news conference. I would imagine it is more of a cultural thing, not seen in the States.
 
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Aesma
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
What could have saved the plane was maybe a three-axis GPS guidance system, which should provide accuracy in regards to longitude, latitude and (in this case) especially altitude to at least within 30 feet (my guess is that GPS receivers on airplanes should accuracy within 15-20 feet). When properly programmed in, a 777 should have able to land completely automatically with pretty good accuracy just by going with GPS signals from at minimum six satellites. If the flight crew of OZ 214 tried to land the plane manually by essentially visual guidance, that might explain why the plane had such a steep final descent and the pilots couldn't get the plane to accelerate before impact, in my humble opinion! (And I do mean in my humble opinion.)

They had a radio altimeter and even the normal altimeter is an easy one since the airport is literally at sea level, if they didn't follow the instruments they had, I don't see why they would have followed a GPS.
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Mir
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
What could have saved the plane was maybe a three-axis GPS guidance system, which should provide accuracy in regards to longitude, latitude and (in this case) especially altitude to at least within 30 feet (my guess is that GPS receivers on airplanes should accuracy within 15-20 feet). When properly programmed in, a 777 should have able to land completely automatically with pretty good accuracy just by going with GPS signals from at minimum six satellites.

If the cause of this crash really is that the pilots couldn't fly a visual approach without electronic aids (and I'm NOT saying that it is - we'll have to wait for solid evidence on that), the solution is not to provide more electronic aids, it's for pilots to get better at flying visual approaches without them. It's not rocket science - they're fairly easy to do, but they do require some practice every so often. The practice of requiring crews to use maximum automation does degrade basic flying skills - looking out the window at a runway, figuring out the proper glidepath, and flying it is one such skill. That trend needs to be reversed, because at some point a pilot might actually find themselves in a position where they need to put an airplane on a runway safely without any help. If that means handflying a visual approach to get a feel for what the sight picture looks like (with a glidepath indicator for backup if it's there), then so be it. There's no reason that a mere absence of a slope indicator should lead to an accident.

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sq_ek_freak
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 20):
I think it is more as an act of humility and they aren't pointing fingers. There is a picture floating around of the Asiana executives bowing at the news conference. I would imagine it is more of a cultural thing, not seen in the States.

Yep. Asiana's CEO and the entire board bowed down and apologized to their passengers, crew, relatives and the Korean people today for the accident in San Francisco.
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rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:46 pm

Lets see if this summarizes the wreckage information.

The plane hit the rock embankment at the water's edge. Exactly what hit is unknown, but

1) The rear pressure bulkhead is split like an orange with seams between the leaves of the bulkhead open and the bottom of the bulkhead and possibly part of the rearmost cabin floor exposed.

2) The empennage after of the bulkhead came apart very quickly.
-- The colored vertical stabilizer section visible in the videos is 40-50 feet long and includes almost 1/4 of the top of the rear fuselage curve still attached. It traveled less than 500 feet from the impact point.
-- Both horizontal stabilizers are visible also less than 500 feet from the impact point - in pieces about 25-30 feet long
-- The APU is between the stabilizers - about 50-100 feet closer to the water
-- Most of the tail cone is located right near the water edge.
-- There is some debris in the water, but very little.
-- What some folks identify as right wing scrape marks are visible on the ground just clear of the service road along the water's edge.

3) The main fuselage skidded down the runway. There is no evidence it tumbled, flipped or even spun around 360 degrees. But it might have happened.
-- The main fuselage is located left of the runway about 200-250 feet and appears to be pointed about 15-20 degrees off the runway magnetic heading of 283.5
-- There is a very visible twisted skid mark - presumably from the nose gear - along the runway exiting the runway surface about 1/2 way between the threshold and the aircraft final location.
-- Both engines are located near the aircraft - but separated from their mounts
-- One engine is located next to the fuselage just forward of the wing root
-- The other engine is located across the runway and a couple hundred feet of the main wreckage. Far to the right of the wreckage by 400 to 500 feet.
-- I don't think anyone has positively identify which engine is which. The assumption is the engine next to the fuselage is the right engine
-- One of the main landing gear is located near the tail control surfaces in the blast pad area. I have seen nothing to indicate where the other gear is located, but the images suggest it might still be under the left wing.
-- The nose gear was visible under the nose before all the fire fighting efforts

4) The fire was largely post-crash and does not appear to have involved any ruptured fuel tanks.

5) The two deceased bodies were found 'on the runway alongside the aircraft' according to SF FD statements. That would rule out the young girls having been thrown out of the aircraft if it is correct.

6) The passengers evacuated quickly. And human nature being what it is - many grabbed their valuable nearby items/ luggage. Many also stopped to record videos and take pictures rather than seeing if their fellow passengers needed assistance.

7) The SF FD head said last night that some of the passengers were "coming from the water" when the first fire trucks and other emergency vehicles arrived on scene. She did not say anyone was in the water, or that anyone went to the water. Only that the people had run far enough away from the aircraft that they had to come back to the rescuers. Every direction a passenger would run away from the aircraft except toward the terminal would be toward the water from that location.

8) There is no ATC audio of the pilots declaring an emergency, calling for a go around, reporting a problem or anything before the crash. The audio on youtube and vaiours sources include two different Skywest pilots who were close to landing on 28R and 28L announcing their go around (duh!! obvious!!) which stepped upon a transmission from the OZ aircraft. The go around announcements are in clear native English - and the ATC tapes show the OZ crew did not speak in those voices.

9) The ILS for both 28R and 28L was OOS - the pilots should have been briefed before this flight that the ILS was out.

10) There is confustion if the PAPI was out of service, or if the PAPI was damaged/ destroyed by the crash.

11) SFO was moving the runway threshold back a few hundred feet down the runway from the water to increase the safety zone between the touchdown point and the water. That is why the ILS was out of service.

12) The images on Google Earth/ Google Maps / Bing Maps are about 18 months old - and show the threshold at its old location much closer to the water.

13) There was a UA B747 stopped on the parallel taxiway south of the runway - pointed toward the arriving aircraft, waiting for the OZ aircraft to land before it could make the 180 taxi turn and takeoff. That crew obviously saw the impact, and some passengers on the UA plane certainly would have seen the wreckage skidding past. That plane sat there for almost three hours before a tug was allowed to turn the aircraft around and pull it back down the taxi way to the terminal. I've seen nothing definite about the passengers and crew of the UA plane. If they were disembarked and bussed back to the terminal, or sat there the whole time. Neither the passengers or the crew would have been able to see the fire fighting operation or much of the rescue work.

[Edited 2013-07-07 08:53:47]
 
oldeuropean
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
I don't see why they would have followed a GPS.

Also considering the fact that the civil version of GPS isn't very accurate. They should go for Gallileo, which is more precisely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_%28satellite_navigation%29
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AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting houstondallas (Reply 18):
Reddit

Ahh, that would do it, thanks. The wild, wooly interwebs!

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 23):
Asiana's CEO and the entire board bowed




Very dignified and respectful.   
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PHX787
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
3) The main fuselage skidded down the runway. There is no evidence it tumbled, flipped or even spun around 360 degrees. But it might have happened.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
-- There is a very visible twisted skid mark - presumably from the nose gear - along the runway exiting the runway surface about 1/2 way between the threshold and the aircraft final location.

Now these seem to rule out- to me at least, excuse me for arm-chairing NTSBing - but i don't think there's much visible evidence that the aircraft went upside down. It spun though laterally about 300 degrees, which direction I cannot tell. From the looks of it, it probably spun starboard-ways as it slid into the grass on the left side of the RWY.
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moo
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 25):
Also considering the fact that the civil version of GPS isn't very accurate. They should go for Gallileo, which is more precisely.

That depends on a *lot* of things - you can get GPS accuracy down to centimetres very easily, F1 cars are tracked around the race tracks down to 1cm accuracy across the four corners of the car (you can literally see a cars back end step out through the GPS data alone).

If an airport puts a differential GPS station at the end of each runway, there's absolutely no reason they couldn't have the same accuracy.
 
trnswrld
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:03 pm

I guess I meant cabin crew at this point since we are still unsure what happened with the pilots. IMO it's either they made very bad mistakes and caused a triple seven to crash, or they did an absolutely amazing job keeping that plane mostly in one piece and onto the pavement with relatively minimal fatalities.
 
PHX787
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 26):

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 23):
Asiana's CEO and the entire board bowed




Very dignified and respectful.

I'm guessing this is an asian thing- apologize when faced with controversy to prevent further controversy from escalating, even when it is not their fault....or even if this crash turns out to be from non-pilot, mx, or what have you reasons. I highly respect this motion by the OZ board. Lets just hope this doesn't damage OZ's rep. They're a wonderful airline. My buddy flew them last week back to the states and they said they were absolutely wonderful
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yvphx
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:13 pm

It may have been talked about in previous locked threads, but based on pictures of how the aircraft hit the sea-wall; it appears quite a bit "right" of center line.

Is this something normal to occur at SFO, or is this something else the NTSB will factor into the investigation? It appears to me that with that tracking to landing, even if it was accident free, the right mains may have contacted the dirt off of the runway. Others thoughts?
 
atomsareenough
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 19):
NTSB has this Twitter picture of Greg Smith working with the two recorders of OZ214.

They look to be in pretty decent physical condition, at least from the outside. Hopefully that means the data is intact.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):

The UA 747 pilots were supposed to get out before OZ214 but the had to do something and told tower they had to wait... Did that flight get cancelled? I'd imagine the pilots might have been shaken up with a crash in front of them.
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Guillermo
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
What some folks identify as right wing scrape marks are visible on the ground just clear of the service road along the water's edge.

In my opinion, those marks belong to the right engine touching ground. As they are huge, to let the wing tip touch the grass would imply that the wing should be too much tilted to the right, hence the other wing should be completely in the air at that point, in that case the airplane wouldn't remain "almost" in one piece as it did due to consequent violent impact with the ground. Not to mention that they are not so far to the debris line as should be considering the great half wing span.

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
If the cause of this crash really is that the pilots couldn't fly a visual approach without electronic aids (and I'm NOT saying that it is - we'll have to wait for solid evidence on that), the solution is not to provide more electronic aids, it's for pilots to get better at flying visual approaches without them. It's not rocket science - they're fairly easy to do, but they do require some practice every so often. The practice of requiring crews to use maximum automation does degrade basic flying skills - looking out the window at a runway, figuring out the proper glidepath, and flying it is one such skill. That trend needs to be reversed, because at some point a pilot might actually find themselves in a position where they need to put an airplane on a runway safely without any help. If that means handflying a visual approach to get a feel for what the sight picture looks like (with a glidepath indicator for backup if it's there), then so be it. There's no reason that a mere absence of a slope indicator should lead to an accident.

  


Regards.
 
atomsareenough
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
11) SFO was moving the runway threshold back a few hundred feet down the runway from the water to increase the safety zone between the touchdown point and the water. That is why the ILS was out of service.

The threshold had already been moved (displaced 300 feet) a few weeks ago.
 
rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting yvphx (Reply 31):
even if it was accident free, the right mains may have contacted the dirt off of the runway

The impact point was about 65-75 feet right of the center line. The runway is 200 feet wide with an additional 50 foot wide blast protective pavement on each side. The gear are 85 feet apart. So the right MLG would have set down 107.5 feet right of the centerline (75+42.5) right on the edge of the runway, but within the paved protection area. The left gear would have been 30 feet or so right of the centerline.

However, the debris path and what looks like a possible scrape mark of the bottom of the fuselage is straight - not trending to the right.

Some have suggested that this would have been the result of a crab angle which had the nose gear / cockpit aligned with the centerline and the rear of the aircraft crabbed to the right.

That would be a guess. No one knows exactly where the aircraft was located.

The plot of the track from the FlightAware shows the plane dead on the centerline.

Another guess is that the crew yanked the yokes back, pitching the nose up high, and the tail low - because they through they were too low. That would have turned what would have been an embaressing short landing on the blast pad into a major crash by pushing the back of the plane down to make contact with the seawall/ ground.

That a tail strike was not unavoidable, but caused by crew actions.

That when the crew pulled back, the plane stalled and fell off to the right, which caused the movement.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:32 pm

Referenced postings lost due to previous thread being locked.

1...Oxygen IS flammable! If only you could ask the Apollo 1 crewmembers.

2...Displaced threshold appears to have been lengthened, as evidenced by the apparent painting of new markings and the blackening of the old markings.
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7BOEING7
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 25):
Also considering the fact that the civil version of GPS isn't very accurate. They should go for Gallileo, which is more precisely.

737 has a GPS system that provides up and including autoland capability -- that's accurate. The 777 didn't as of a couple of years ago because of the capabilities of the airports it flies into.
 
etoile
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 5):
Acording to USA Today Asian's CEO has ruled out mechanical failure. That'll save the NTSB some time.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...ncisco-airport-boeing-777/2496275/
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
No that is just the CEO trying to save face, and say that the airplanes are safe because they are maintained, the CEO only knows that an airplane crashed and the names of all on board. I'll wait for the NTSB to release their report before the actual cause is confirmed.

Neither of those statements is quite right, since the CEO is being careful. The USA Today article quotes the Asean CEO as saying, "For now, we acknowledge that there were no problems caused by the 777-200 plane or engines."
 
rc135x
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 37):
1...Oxygen IS flammable! If only you could ask the Apollo 1 crewmembers.

Oxygen is NOT flammable. It is an oxidizer that enables other substances to burn. You cannot set fire to pure oxygen. In the Apollo fire the oxygen-rich atmosphere accelerated and intensified the combustion of interior flammable materials. I believe any basic chemistry text or a variety of credible web sites will demonstrate this chemically.

[Edited 2013-07-07 09:49:52]
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
User avatar
flylku
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
If the cause of this crash really is that the pilots couldn't fly a visual approach without electronic aids (and I'm NOT saying that it is - we'll have to wait for solid evidence on that), the solution is not to provide more electronic aids, it's for pilots to get better at flying visual approaches without them.

Here, here!

My flying friend who was a UA 744 Captain hated it when something would change during the arrival and a young FO would have his head down reprogramming the FMS. "Keep your head up and fly the airplane," he would say. While that is debateble what is not were his stick and rudder flying skills. We would fly his Taylorcraft (taildragger) around the patch. The next day 400 people were in his care on their way to NRT. Land the 744 without glideslope or VASI... heck yes.
...are we there yet?
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 am

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 20):
I think it is more as an act of humility and they aren't pointing fingers. There is a picture floating around of the Asiana executives bowing at the news conference. I would imagine it is more of a cultural thing, not seen in the States.

My first thought is that there may have already been some phone calls/ communications between OZ officials and the flight crew which would lead him to that conclusion......
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
calisam
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:53 pm

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Here's a photo I took around 5:30am, the scene is unreal


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Amir Salehi



[Edited 2013-07-07 09:55:25]
 
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7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting Guillermo (Reply 34):
In my opinion, those marks belong to the right engine touching ground. As they are huge, to let the wing tip touch the grass would imply that the wing should be too much tilted to the right, hence the other wing should be completely in the air at that point, in that case the airplane wouldn't remain "almost" in one piece as it did due to consequent violent impact with the ground. Not to mention that they are not so far to the debris line as should be considering the great half wing span.

  


If you can't make a manual landing in VMC conditions after watching the autopilot or the other pilot do it day after day you don't belong at the controls of anything with people in it. On a nominal 3 degree glide path, on speed with your seat set where it should be, the runway will be the same place in the window day after day -- when you fly a visual approach you know where the runway should be, just put it there.
 
awthompson
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:54 pm

No-one as yet, apart from myself at post 48 in thread 2 has commented on this photo:

http://twitter.com/stefanielaine/status/353591123958173696/photo/1

(Copy and paste this link into your browser if photo does not show here.)

This photo appears to show the accident unfolding with the crash aircraft not yet having come to a stop and just before the scene was shrouded from view by a cloud of dust.
This is the earliest of all the photos yet available of this accident.
As I have described in thread two, the starboard wing appears to be high in the air, almost as if a cartwheel was prevented by the integrity of the port wing which did not separate.

Commenting on the two fatalities found outside the aircraft, it appears to me that the two 16 year old girls were likely together on a double seat unit at the rear which was ejected from the aircraft, possibly from a compromised floor or via the split open rear pressure bulkhead. I believe we will find that there is severe damage to the rear cabin/galley/toilet area and that various parts have been ejected from there. The pressure bulkhead is severely damaged in this photo:

http://news.kron4.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/asiana1.jpg
 
multimark
Posts: 454
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 33):
The UA 747 pilots were supposed to get out before OZ214 but the had to do something and told tower they had to wait... Did that flight get cancelled? I'd imagine the pilots might have been shaken up with a crash in front of them.

Apparently there was a wait of 3 hours before a tug could tow them back to the gate, then I assume the flight was cancelled.
 
b2319
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:41 am

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 37):
1...Oxygen IS flammable! If only you could ask the Apollo 1 crewmembers.

100% wrong. Oxygen supports combustion.

PS, I am a Chartered Chemical Engineer.

Regards

B=2319
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
1) The rear pressure bulkhead is split like an orange with seams between the leaves of the bulkhead open and the bottom of the bulkhead and possibly part of the rearmost cabin floor exposed.

We must not be looking at the same photos. I only see the upper ~40% of the bulkhead remaining, with the lower ~60% missing entirely. Don't rely on overhead shots.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
There is no evidence it tumbled, flipped or even spun around 360 degrees

The skid mark from the nose gear (first with tires attached, then just the axle) is shaped like a sine wave, which is consistent with a 360. The strut itself is visible near door 1R. No wheels left, just the axle and steering actuators.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4

Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 45):
Commenting on the two fatalities found outside the aircraft, it appears to me that the two 16 year old girls were likely together on a double seat unit at the rear which was ejected from the aircraft, possibly from a compromised floor or via the split open rear pressure bulkhead.

Hard to see how two seats (and only two seats!) could have been ejected from a cabin that mostly stayed intact. The opening in the bulkhead is well behind the last row of passenger seats, and there should be lavatories and galleys in between.

Looking at the seatmap posted in the previous thread, the most likely candidates are seats 42A and B:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Asiana/Asiana_Boeing_777-200_ER_B.php

Alternatively, perhaps the girls were helped out of the aircraft by others, or got out themselves, but subsequently died of their injuries? I have not seen any info stating that the girls were found strapped inside, or along with, their seats.

What is remarkable about this crash, is that everybody got out in a matter of minutes, despite more than half of the people on board being injured. Quite conceivably, those who helped the injured people out, may also have carried two dead or dying girls out...

[Edited 2013-07-07 10:34:57]

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