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Viscount724
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 35):
VS is posting a loss. What's wrong with them? Should they just join an alliance? Star Alliance maybe?

With DL now owning 49% of VS, VS joining Star Alliance is unlikely.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 40):
Oh you mean UA has the right to fly HKG-LHR nonstop????

Yes, UA has unrestricted 5th freedom rights from anywhere in the EU due to the Open Skies agreement. US-Hong Kong is also Open Skies so they have the same rights from HKG. However it would still have to be a 5th freedom operation, meaning a continuation of a flight to/from the U.S.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting solnabo (Reply 6):
As a Airbus fan the 380 in VS livery looks bloody awful

It is not a very attractive livery--too plain. But no one would ever call the A380 a pretty airplane.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
Canceling is not easy because they will lose their deposits, but they could swap it for another aircraft type maybe.

I would love to see DL take up the slots but in reality I don't see that happening. Airbus in the past has proven to be very flexible. When NW cancelled their A340 orders, literally at the last minute, Airbus simply switched the deposits to the A320 order. Boeing tends to be less flexible and I have heard that they just have to forfeit the deposit if they cancel. Boeing does not like "white tails." NW picked up two former Braniff 747-200's that were never delivered very cheap because Boeing wanted to get rid of them.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
by738
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:30 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 45):

...and GLA for from April to October
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 51):
But no one would ever call the A380 a pretty airplane

No but awesome, breathtaking, staggering, mighty, regal... all spring to mind.

Surely at peak time of the day, LHR-JFK would warrant an A380. LAX, SFO and HKG all, as others have said, feel like they'd support a VS A380 too.

The combination of A380 and 787 would give VS the flexibility of frequency where it matters and the draw of the A380 where loads can support it. A380 prestige maybe, but the public do like to fly it.
come visit the south pacific
 
anstar
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 47):
Oh I didn't know that LHR is 24 hours!

It is not... and in fact VS only have one arrival slot before 6am which is the SYD/HKG arrival... all other arrivals are after 6am.. with the first usually the V4 from JFK.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:57 pm

I highly doubt Virgin have anything to worry about from Norwegian offering long haul...

Norwegian only have eight 787's on order, and most of these are already assigned to operate from Oslo and Stockholm to the likes of Bangkok, New York and Fort Lauderdale. There is also mention they are going to start similar routes from Copenhagen. If they choose to fly long haul from Gatwick they probably have no more than one or two to spare.

I would imagine they would be keen to fly similar routes as they do from Scandinavia to the likes of Bangkok and New York.

I don't think any of the Caribbean islands have an open skies agreement in place to let other international carriers operate between the UK and Caribbean. Also many of the islands are heavily reliant on BA and VS to provide that vital link to the UK, as they no longer have their own airlines operating to London, I am unsure they would want to grant Norwegian permission to fly to London, if it means jeopardising the current airlines on the route.
 
tjh8402
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 46):

I said LHR... I didnt include LGW as I dont believe the 380 was ever planned to go to LGW.

I was answering:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 40):
As of today (Northern summer 2013) where does VS fly its B 747-400s to?


You had already covered LHR. Being an Orlando resident, I know they fly them into here, so I figured I could offer that information.

Quoting anstar (Reply 46):


Given that MCO has been seeing a daily 744 and 330 from LGW recently, wouldnt be too much drop in capacity if it were to go 2 x daily A350-1000 would it?

According to MCO's flight schedule on their website, 4 days a week its only 1x 744 from LGW, 2 days its 744 A330 and one day its 2x744, so only two days a week does 2x A35J provide a similar seat count. From MAN it's 333 6 days a week and a 744 4 days (one of those days being the one without 333 service). Any guesses as to how an A35J seating configuration for VS would compare to their 744s? Maybe a 787 A35J would provide the capcity they're looking for. I still think this route is a good fit for a high density 78J...medium range, low yield, (I'm guessing) low freight traffic...etc
 
skipness1E
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 40):
As of today (Northern summer 2013) where does VS fly its B 747-400s to?

There are two fleets, LHR based and the beach fleet based at LGW.
Current B744 routes from LHR are :
VS001 LHR-EWR
VS005 LHR-MIA
VS007 LHR-LAX
VS019 LHR-SFO
VS045 LHR-JFK
These are operated by G-VFAB, G-VHOT, G-VBIG, G-VWOW and G-VROC, the three oldest and two youngest in the fleet.

MAN has one based B744 operating MAN-MCO/LAS/BGI. (They also currently have a based A330.)
GLA has the weekend GLA-MCO, again split with the A330

That leaves LGW which has a fleet of six aircraft from G-VAST, G-VXLG, G-VROS, G-VGAL, G-VLIP, G-VROM and G-VROY. (G-VTOP was returned to the leasor recently, just after being resprayed in the new livery....)
These operate daily to
VS015 LGW-MCO
VS027 LGW-MCO (split with the A330)
VS043 LGW-LAS

Some of the VS029 LGW-BGI is also B744 but that leaves

LGW-ANU/BGI/UVF/HAV/MBJ/CAN/GND, all at less than daily. There is no pressing need for the A380 anywhere on the network, especially to JFK/EWR where frequency is essential.
 
1400mph
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:30 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 57):
There are two fleets, LHR based and the beach fleet based at LGW.

Just so you know...

- 'beach fleet' is a phrase coined by staff working at LGW for British Airways' long-haul ops at the airport pre VS's arrival.

Please, continue........
 
skipness1E
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:31 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 58):
- 'beach fleet' is a phrase coined by staff working at LGW for British Airways' long-haul ops at the airport pre VS's arrival.

Pre 1985?
 
1400mph
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:14 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 59):
Pre 1985?

No - just pre VS's arrival into the Caribbean LGW market.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:39 pm

2018 now....

"Virgin, an initial customer for the Airbus flagship plane, has ordered six and “deferred them yet again,” Virgin Atlantic Chief Executive Officer Craig Kreeger said today at the Royal Aeronautical Society in London. The double-decker jet is now due in 2018 rather than 2017, he said."

“It’s hard but not impossible to see a world where we want to take the aircraft,” Kreeger said. “It’s not a clear choice.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...onitors-boeing-787.html?cmpid=yhoo

tortugamon
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:06 pm

With the DL stake, I for one do see VS taking these 380's.

We all know LHR is slot constrained, and the only real growth possibility is bigger aircraft. DL will want VS to be cost competitive on Trans Atlantic, so I see tem being taken by VS, especially if they get their finger out and fully tie the knot with DL/Skyteam.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 62):
We all know LHR is slot constrained

But that might change with a 3rd runway.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
But that might change with a 3rd runway

Is it worth contemplating which will come first, a 3rd runway @ LHR, or VS 380's @ LHR ?
 
fcogafa
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:38 pm

They must have some great exemptions written into the contract on this order to be able to continually defer delivery with presumably no penalty.

Are Airbus so scared of someone actually cancelling any A380 orders that they will do anything to avoid it? The dodgy orders seem to just sit there, forgotten about.
 
Scipio
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:18 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
But that might change with a 3rd runway.

Which will not be there until 2025-29, if ever.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23337754
 
GDB
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 65):
They must have some great exemptions written into the contract on this order to be able to continually defer delivery with presumably no penalty.

I think any serious fees would come if they actually cancelled them.
Hence the constant deferments, also it might be that Branson does not relish doing such a u-turn after all his noise about the A380 when he ordered them.
He does not do bad news.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:51 am

Delayed until 2018.

"Virgin, an initial customer for the Airbus flagship plane, has ordered six and “deferred them yet again,” Virgin Atlantic Chief Executive Officer Craig Kreeger said today at the Royal Aeronautical Society in London. The double-decker jet is now due in 2018 rather than 2017, he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...onitors-boeing-787.html?cmpid=yhoo

Who'll get their A380 first, Virgin, Kingfisher of Air Austral?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:05 am

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 68):

Why post the same quote and same article as in #61? I simply do not understand.

I think they will eventually order so long as Airbus allows them to push back. Not harm done and the A380 program needs everything it can get. I hope the orders will come through.

tortugamon
 
Confuscius
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:11 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 69):

Oops! I don't have my reading glasses. My vision is blurred because I've been on "other" sites...with pictures of a different nature.  
Ain't I a stinker?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 70):

Good enough that it is worth quoting twice. Have fun on the 'other site'.

tortugamon
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:50 am

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 62):
With the DL stake, I for one do see VS taking these 380's.

I think DL involvement is a double edged sword. The timing of this latest deferral speaks volumes. (Little tit bits being released drip by drip. Routes being cut and aircraft deferred etc) As where VS may have gone ahead 'gung-ho' for fear of being left behind DL's influence is probably more sobering.

In other words if the DL deal pans out it 'could' provide enough traffic but it's still very early days and DL rightly are waiting to see.
 
sxb
Posts: 90
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:53 am

Apologies, just realised that this was already posted.

There is an article in Flightglobal today about this.
In short: it's unlikely

"Speaking at the Royal Aeronautical Society in London, the airline's recently appointed chief executive Craig Kreeger indicated that the chances of the airline ever being an A380 operator were low."

"We have six A380s on order and have deferred them yet again," he said. "It's hard, but not impossible, to foresee a world where we operate the aircraft."

Kreeger says that the airline still has the option of operating the 550-seater in the future, but it's not "a clear choice" for Virgin.



Source: http://pro.flightglobal.com/news/art...ver-take-its-A380s-Kreeger-388432/
You will need a pro account

[Edited 2013-07-19 02:55:21]
SXB
 
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EK413
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:45 am

Virgin Atlantic Pushes Back Airbus A380 as Plan Uncertain

Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. has delayed taking delivery of six A380 superjumbos ordered from Airbus SAS (EAD) more than a decade ago as the U.K. carrier evaluates whether it still requires the world’s largest jetliner.

Virgin Atlantic, which placed a contract for the double-deckers in 2000, has “deferred them yet again,” with the first delivery now due in 2018 rather than 2017, Chief Executive Officer Craig Kreeger said in London.

“It’s hard but not impossible to see a world where we want to take the aircraft,” Kreeger said in response to questions at the Royal Aeronautical Society. “It’s not a clear choice.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rbus-a380-monitors-boeing-787.html

EK8413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
vv701
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 47):
Oh I didn't know that LHR is 24 hours!

Yes. LHR is open 24/7. However the LHR Night Time Quota is strictly (and complexly) controlled by Airport Coordination Ltd (ACL). Here is a link to the Heathrow page on their web site :

http://www.acl-uk.org/default.aspx?id=54

First note their statement:

"Heathrow airport is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, year round."

If you then scroll down to the "Local Guideline 1" paragraph and click on the "click here" guide at the end of that paragraph you can read details about the LHR Night Time Quota, that is flights with slots in the LHR night time period of 23:30 to 06:00.

The LHR Night Time Quota is almost exclusively used for long haul arrivals and because the Quota is determined each season by the cumulative aircraft noise from the permitted flights, it seems to me that it is just possible that the substitution of one or more modern, quieter aircraft, such as a 380 or 787, for older, noisier aircraft, such as a 744, might result in an increase in the number of scheduled arrivals allowed in the Quota period.

The existence of the LHR Night Time Quota explains how, for example, BA026, HKG-LHR is scheduled to arrive at LHR at 04:50. This is well within the 23:30 to 06:00 night time period.
 
1400mph
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:34 pm

Surely when the A380 has been knocking about for a while it will just be another plane like the 747. I mean its not 'that' big is it.
 
virgincrew
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:26 pm

I personally think the A380 orders will be swapped for A350 and the VS fleet will eventually become a B789 & A350 .

But I do think the A380 looks good in VS colours !


Hello Beautiful !!!
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:41 pm

I do wish we could get through a Virgin thread without a less than stunning photoshopped picture.

Nevermind we now get this one twice in the same thread !   
Flying around India
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 77):
I personally think the A380 orders will be swapped for A350 and the VS fleet will eventually become a B789 & A350 .

Yes. The important thing is that VS orders aircraft that best suit its needs whilst providing optimum return.

Now is not the time for any western carrier to engage in vanity projects. A la LH and the 748. (as much as I adore the 748)
 
GDB
Posts: 14069
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:34 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 79):
Yes. The important thing is that VS orders aircraft that best suit its needs whilst providing optimum return.

So why did Branson go and order it then? Spending the next couple of years making all sorts of claims about the cabin he was going to have and the usual snide comments about the UK airline which has actually now taken delivery of the A380.

Also, I have difficulty with the idea of LH being into 'vanity projects', doesn't sound like them.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 80):
So why did Branson go and order it then?

Who knows. I would imagine the thought of BA operating them and VS not probably played a part somewhere.

Quoting GDB (Reply 80):
Also, I have difficulty with the idea of LH being into 'vanity projects', doesn't sound like them.

I personally think that the LH 748's were originally intended for use as a sub fleet at LHR on the back of the BD slots.

As with VS and the A380 though times change.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 80):
So why did Branson go and order it then?

a few possible reasons... it was ordered whilst the Bermuda II treaty at LHR was still in force, when fuel was cheaper, before the massive increases in air passenger duty at UK airports, before Emirates became as big as it now has and before BA purchased BD, which provided VS with a lot of its feed traffic into LHR.





Quoting virgincrew (Reply 77):

I personally think the A380 orders will be swapped for A350 and the VS fleet will eventually become a B789 & A350

think you're right A350-1000 would replace the balance A346's and 747's nicely without the big increase in capacity that the A388 would provide.
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 82):
a few possible reasons... it was ordered whilst the Bermuda II treaty at LHR was still in force, when fuel was cheaper, before the massive increases in air passenger duty at UK airports, before Emirates became as big as it now has and before BA purchased BD, which provided VS with a lot of its feed traffic into LHR.

Yes but all those reasons are also reasons for BA to reconsider the A380 which they have not.

Surely it's about VS not being double daily anywhere at LHR except JFK and that's all about frequency. Since DL is even less of an issue. Unlike BA who can free up some slots by reducing frequency whilst still maintaining capacity.

All the A380 does for VS is increase unwanted capacity.

[Edited 2013-07-21 07:31:28]
 
GDB
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
Yes but all those reasons are also reasons for BA to reconsider the A380 which they have not.

Despite the obvious success of VS, they are a much smaller airline than the average person thinks, I've told many people their fleet size and they are usually surprised. Much of this of course is down to Branson's PR skills.
But when you think of that size and being a A380 operator, it is surprising he ever ordered them.

Make no mistake, it was a welcome order for Airbus and the UK, but i'm not surprised they've got cold feet.

With BA it's an entirely different situation, A380 was chosen after a long evaluation not ordered until Sept. 2007, though it was clear right from the start of the A380 program BA was an obvious customer.
But back in 2000/1 BA were not about to buy a new aircraft, back then, burned by being an early 777 operator, there was also a policy of not being a launch customer.

By 2007 the A380 as a type had flown, was able to prove it could meet the stringent LHR noise regs, unlike the as yet unflown 747-8i.
Another factor was that BA said that they were only going to order one new type of very large aircraft. So there is no prospect of BA ever ordering the 747-8i now.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see BA take the VS A380 slots, help to exit older 747's quicker but still retain the 7 BA options, though I'd be surprised - though pleased - if BA did eventually go to a 25 aircraft A380 fleet if those options were taken up.
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
Surely it's about VS not being double daily anywhere at LHR except JFK

err, LAX?
 
skipness1E
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 81):
I personally think that the LH 748's were originally intended for use as a sub fleet at LHR on the back of the BD slots.

REALLY? Where did that come from?
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:40 pm

Consider the next 10 years;
VS want to grow at 2% per year, in fact lets scale that down to 1.5% year on year, not particular ambitious. Over the next 10 years that adds up to 16% in total over 10 years. Are VS going to get 16% more LHR slots between now and 2023? Remember no new runway is possible until potentially 2030 being realistic.
If 'yes' they will get 16% more slots then they do not need the A380.
If 'no' then it needs very serious consideration.
What are the chances of mixed mode throughout the day? If that happened slot numbers could increase depending on how the newly created slots would be allocated.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 80):
Also, I have difficulty with the idea of LH being into 'vanity projects', doesn't sound like them.

As a great admirer of the later piston aircraft I was most impressed when LH spent the money to acquire three L-1649 Constellations, build a new hangar in Auburn, ME and then spend millions on the restoration to flight status of one of the airframes at their own expense using LH engineers. This is no small undertaking but will ensure that this beautiful aircraft will be around for many years to come. Call it a "vanity project" but I think it is preserving an important part of aviation history.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
GDB
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 88):
As a great admirer of the later piston aircraft I was most impressed when LH spent the money to acquire three L-1649 Constellations, build a new hangar in Auburn, ME and then spend millions on the restoration to flight status of one of the airframes at their own expense using LH engineers. This is no small undertaking but will ensure that this beautiful aircraft will be around for many years to come. Call it a "vanity project" but I think it is preserving an important part of aviation history.

They do good on heritage, I really meant LH in terms of choosing aircraft and in general.
 
vv701
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 87):
Over the next 10 years that adds up to 16% in total over 10 years. Are VS going to get 16% more LHR slots between now and 2023?

Why not?

Between end-March 2003 and end-March 2012, a ten year period, BA increased their LHR weekly slot holding from 3,602 to 4,198. That is a growth of 16.5 per cent. And it excludes the former BD slots that were not transferred to BA until 20 April 2012.

So if BA increased their slot holding by 16.5 per cent of a very much larger number over 10 years why could VS not increase its slot holding by a smaller percentage of a much smaller number over the next 10 years?

[The above slot numbers are taken from the seasonal reports on the Airport Coordination Ltd web site.]
 
1400mph
Posts: 1051
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RE: Will VS Ever Take Delivery Of The A380?

Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 90):
So if BA increased their slot holding by 16.5 per cent of a very much larger number over 10 years why could VS not increase its slot holding by a smaller percentage of a much smaller number over the next 10 years?

  

I don't want to keep slagging off VS but I think the answer to that is because they don't 'really' want to grow that significantly.

The slot 'moaning' is just a convenient card to play whenever they feel the need to object to something.

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