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jourdan747
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Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:40 am

The LA Times reported a LearJet got tagged by gangs in Van Nuys. The link below shows the article and pictures.
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76657482/
 
prosa
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:39 am

The police are all worried about a breach of airport security, but it's entirely possible that the tagger was an airport or FBO employee with authorized access to the location.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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zkojq
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:04 am

Something similar happened to a RAAF Boeing C-17 that was parked overnight at Whenuapai airbase a few years ago.

http://www.adf-serials.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=1116 (scroll down a bit).
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LAXintl
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:48 am

Frankly surprised things like this don't happen more often at GA airports.

With many fields being wide open, and those with fences having often many dozen access points its really not that hard to wonder onto the field.

Reminds me a bit about kids accessing the BA engineering base at Heathrow a few years back and climbing onboard a 747.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:34 am

Although I hate graffiti, that plane now looks better than some recent airline liveries.

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skywaymanaz
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:52 pm

I could be wrong about this but I believe if it happened at an airport that makes it a Federal crime. That could get interesting if true.
 
bennett123
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:01 pm

IMO, graffety is a much under rated crime.

My understanding is that they indicate gang territory.

Consequently, if not challenged, then they will lead to other forms of criminality.
 
srbmod
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):

Frankly surprised things like this don't happen more often at GA airports.

With many fields being wide open, and those with fences having often many dozen access points its really not that hard to wonder onto the field.

More and more of them have put up additional fencing around the aprons or upgraded the fencing (at least at publicly owned GA airports). In the past, many would typically have a perimeter fence and that was it at many GA airports. If there were any fences between the area the public could access it might be a chain link fence at a height you might see in someone's backyard. I remember the small GA airport near where I lived as a teenager and in order to gain access to the airfield area (which included a small warbird museum on property), you had to walk through the FBO offices and they were always cool about letting folks walk around the airport (This was over 20 years ago and the folks that used the airport were a pretty tight-knit group of folks and if you looked out of place, you'd get questioned [something that happened to us one day when myself, my stepdad and his dad went over there to check out the warbirds parked on the other side of the airport] and once they figured out you weren't up to anything bad, they were cool.). The smaller privately owned airports probably cannot afford additional fencing or security and that is where the proverbial hole in the fence is likely to be, but those airports are like small towns and everyone looks out for one another.

Looking at VNY on Google Earth, they have the usual safeguards against unauthorized access to the airport grounds. The thing is that chain link fences can be climbed, even with barbed wire or razor wire on top of them. Some areas of the airport have fencing that is more of a deterrent because the fence rails are spaced far enough that they cannot be climbed. Some airports have stayed with chain link fencing, but have a concrete wall as the foundation, which puts the starting point of the fence much higher, making it tougher to climb onto to fence. Now whether the person (or persons) behind this tagging climbed a fence or somebody left a security door or gate open (malfunctions happen with mechanically driven gates) or perhaps worked at the airport (or knew someone who did) remains to be seen.
 
n92r03
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:52 pm

How did they come up with the $100k in damage amount?

I'm thinking a couple gallons of enamel reducer, a box of clean rags and some elbow grease and your done. Of course that is only for the painted surfaces, but seriously, what else is really damaged?
 
pugman211
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:01 pm

Well you have the cost of repainting. The cost of replacement windows (I don't know if you can clean them without damaging them). The cost of the aircraft being out of service/storage charges etc etc. Plus that will probably be a worst case scenario.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 9):

How did they come up with the $100k in damage amount?

I'm thinking a couple gallons of enamel reducer, a box of clean rags and some elbow grease and your done. Of course that is only for the painted surfaces, but seriously, what else is really damaged?

The damage is quite extensive.

The entire plane will have to be repainted - which will include removal of a lot of the metal in places like the tail, door and wing root. Windows will likely have to be replaced, which is also a very expensive process.

All this must be done by a facility/ company certified to work on such aircraft - and is not cheap.

Also, the 'value' of the plane is probably understated. A $2.3 million Lear 60 would be a 20 year old aircraft. One that is 10 years old or less would be a 7-8 million dollar aircraft.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:59 pm

If they used off the shelf spray paints, it can easily be removed with a variety of solvents without damaging the finish, since the Lear would be painted with a two-part polyurethane like Jet-Glo or Alumnigrip. Even MEK won't touch polyurethane. Windows are more of an issue, but I would wager mineral spirits and a little careful elbow grease will take care of that safely.
 
pugman211
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:05 pm

But, if that was your aircraft, would you be happy with that kind of repair? ? I know I wouldn't be.
 
_AA_777_MAN
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:06 pm

This has nothing to do with gangs, I see no gang signs there. Its just a tagging name of the person who wrote it. Taggers want their names seen everywhere thats why they target trains, bilboards, rooftops and now planes.
 
srbmod
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting _AA_777_MAN (Reply 14):

This has nothing to do with gangs, I see no gang signs there. Its just a tagging name of the person who wrote it. Taggers want their names seen everywhere thats why they target trains, bilboards, rooftops and now planes.

From the article:

Quote:
Police believe gangs are responsible for a graffiti attack on a $2.3-million Learjet in a secure area of Van Nuys Airport.

LAPD has dedicated gang units in multiple parts of their jurisdiction that include databases that include known gang-related tags (as well as non-gang tags in case they turn out to be a new set in that area), as well as the street names of members of various gangs. Looking at the graffiti, it was done to "honor" someone whose street name was "Flame". The if the police are saying its' gang-related, then it likely is considering they keep an eye out for this sort of stuff.
 
cargolex
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):

My understanding is that they indicate gang territory.

Sometimes, but not all that often. Most of the time graffiti in America is just the product of bored young artists or people with no other outlet. I use the term "artist" lightly there because most graffiti isn't "art" it's just tagging.

Growing up in New York City in the 1980s, when everything was covered in graffiti, and being from the Bronx and having been involved with the art world, I can see some merit in some forms of graffiti. An entire class of serious artists, like Jean Michel Basquiat and Keith Haring, came out of the Graffiti world. But this particular example is just vandalism.

My guess is that the reason for tagging the jet is personal bragging rights. Back in the 70s and 80s, the more difficult the place to tag, the more street cred the artist got. Tagging a jet in such an elaborate an extensive manner involves alot of planning and risk.

But my guess is whoever "Flame" is, it won't be long before the cops get him or her, because this is very high profile and somebody has to know who this is.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):

Consequently, if not challenged, then they will lead to other forms of criminality.

I'd also dispute that, although today's circumstances may be different than those of the 70s and 80s.

Graffiti is a quality of life crime. It tends to only happen frequently in blighted places where nobody is watching or where the authorities don't have the resources to deal with low level crimes.

Obviously, any place like that is going to have other, more serious crimes going on. But that correlation isn't causation. Graffiti doesn't cause more crime, but it is an indicator of where crime levels might be or where they were recently.

Back in 1980, when Hip-hop DJ's would play in parks in the Bronx, they'd hook their systems up to power jacked out of a street light instead of lugging expensive and heavy car batteries along. You couldn't do that today - the police would arrest you. It's clearly vandalism. But back then, that was so insignificant a crime that it simply didn't warrant the police coming out to deal with it. Not with 3000 murders a year and all kinds of other craziness going on. In that environment, Graffiti flourished - because there simply wasn't anybody enforcing the law. Cracking down hard on the big crimes meant that police had more time and resources to pursue the small crimes, which in turn ended NYC's epidemic of Graffiti. I'd argue that some very important things were lost in that transition but overall, it was a change for the better.
 
wanderlustlax
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 6):
Honestly, I would have semi expected this from the Occutard types, not some LA street gang....

That very well may be the most nonsensical thing I've read on here lately. Huh??
 
BrouAviation
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 9):

I'm thinking a couple gallons of enamel reducer, a box of clean rags and some elbow grease and your done. Of course that is only for the painted surfaces, but seriously, what else is really damaged?

A few weeks ago, PH-TXI (Citation Mustang) was abused by graffiti-'artists' during the night at Rotterdam (RTM). It is owned by a financial institution which didn't want to pay for storage so it was stored outside with covers. The crime happened during the night.

Repair will be tens of thousands of dollars. A little spray came on the windshield and some windows, which means they all need replacement because the stuff can't be removed without touching vital coatings applied to the glass.

It is not that difficult to cause 100K damage to a multi-million jet.

Frankly, I would be furious as owner and I am sure the insurer will have some not-so-friendly conversations with RTM authorities. RTM is a commercial airport with quite some passenger services - such a security breach is a biggie there.
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
turn720
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting wanderlustlax (Reply 17):
That very well may be the most nonsensical thing I've read on here lately. Huh??

I think what he is saying is that "occupy" people hate big corporations and one percenters and went out of their way to tag a corporate jet.
Being a local LA guy I've seen these taggers at work and most of them are not your stereotypical gang members. A lot of them are white middle class kids looking for a good time...or a cause.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting Pugman211 (Reply 13):
But, if that was your aircraft, would you be happy with that kind of repair? ? I know I wouldn't be.

What would you expect? A complete repaint and overhaul?

If the mentioned processes remove the paint completely and doesn't damage the aircraft, how is that not satisfactory?
 
DrColenzo
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
What would you expect? A complete repaint and overhaul?

In my opinion, leave the plane as it is - adds character like the dents on my Nissan.

Quoting wanderlustlax (Reply 17):
Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 6):
Honestly, I would have semi expected this from the Occutard types, not some LA street gang....

That very well may be the most nonsensical thing I've read on here lately. Huh??


I doubt it is a street gang in LA and I agree with turn720, most taggers are middle class dudes/dudettes (white or otherwise) who want to get their name known and let's face it, painting a jet in a 'secure' airports is a pretty darn audacious way of doing that.

Slightly off topic, but since living in the UK I found the 'gang thing' quite amusing; I live in a new city north of London and a lot of kids in a certain age ground copy the gangster chic from the US and claim to be hard nosed types 'on da streer' to induce middle class fear - I just state that I grew up near Philly and have seen the real deal there. Seriously, if they pulled that nonsense on a whim in that city they'll be dead in 45 minutes!
 
MEA-707
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:19 pm

Can't it be an inside job from a disgruntled employe or friend of the owner of the jet, or security staff who want to make a point that they are understaffed?
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
jetstar
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:48 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 11):
If they used off the shelf spray paints, it can easily be removed with a variety of solvents without damaging the finish, since the Lear would be painted with a two-part polyurethane like Jet-Glo or Alumnigrip. Even MEK won't touch polyurethane. Windows are more of an issue, but I would wager mineral spirits and a little careful elbow grease will take care of that safely.

I totally agree, if the airplane was painted in a polyurethane coating, which almost all corporate jets are painted in, then removing the spray paint from the painted surfaces would be easy, just like maxpower said.

Alumigrip paint and its cousins are virtually indestructible, they were designed to withstand synthetic engine oils and Skrdrol hydraulic fluids, both nasty stuff and quite damaging to enamel and lacquer paints. Both the Lockheed JetStars and the Gulfstream 2 I worked on were painted in Alumigrip and nothing affected the paint on these airplane. In fact sometimes to remove stubborn bug splatters, I found a little MEK on a rag the best bug cleaner out there, and it had absolutely no effect on the paint. You could spray both enamel or lacquer paint remover on Alumigrip and it would not touch the Alumigrip paint, so removing spray paint from the painted surfaces on the LearJet should be an easy job.

Jet passenger airplane windshields are normally made from a glass laminate, but the Learjet windshield is made from Plexiglas, a single piece that is molded to shape and is over one inch thick. If I remember way back 40 years ago, one of my Chief Pilots had a piece of a Learjet windshield mounted on a wooden block given to him by a LearJet sales rep after he had a sales meeting with my Chief Pilot and I think that the Plexiglas was about 1 ½ inches thick.

Almost every LearJet I have seen sitting on a ramp had removable signs on the inside on either side of the windshield stating “Do not clean the windshield”. This is to prevent some overly accommodating flight line personnel from cleaning the windshield after the airplane has been refueled, not realizing that the spray and rags they use to clean glass windshields on other corporate jets could do thousands of dollars in damages to the Plexiglas windshields of LearJets.

In my maintenance days I have polished many windshields to remove slight surface crazing and scratches, there are even polishing kits available which has all the grades of polishing compound and pads needed to do the job. Its all hand work, a machine buffer can get the windshield to hot and cause deforming, but it was a lot cheaper to hand polish a windshield than to replace one.

Most side windows are acrylic, like Plexiglas and can be polished out as well. At trade shows I have seen before and after examples of cloudy and crazed acrylic windows that have been polished out and returned to service so removing surface spray paint from these side windows, it could probably be done right on the airplane like the windshield.

Personally I think that the airplane owner is trying to get a free paint job out of the insurance company or the airport operator out of this.

JetStar
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:12 am

Heck I think it looks OK... and graffiti certainly makes sitting at a railroad crossing a lot more interesting. Seeing the variety of 'artwork' rolling on by. Some of it is really elaborate.
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maxpower1954
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting Pugman211 (Reply 12):
But, if that was your aircraft, would you be happy with that kind of repair? ? I know I wouldn't be.

I worked in an aircraft paint shop in the 1970s and I have restored including the painting three of my own vintage aircraft; a Stinson 108, Cessna 170 and 172. So yes, I would be happy with that "repair".
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 21):
Can't it be an inside job from a disgruntled employe or friend of the owner of the jet, or security staff who want to make a point that they are understaffed?

Could be anything. But looking at the picture in the original link, whoever did that has clearly sprayed graffiti before. Looked too "professional" to be just some random person with a beef. So, if this insider spends his/her free time spraypainting stuff, then I suppose so. But I find that to be unlikely.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
Stackhouse007
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Frankly surprised things like this don't happen more often at GA airports.

I agree completely. Working at a smaller GA field, the security is minimal to none. We constantly have to keep shutting our hangars because people start roaming around the airport looking around. In all honesty, someone could walk right up to our side gate and walk in and no one would ever know and we get corporate jets like this Lear.

It does bug me that the guy in the video makes a comment about security around America's airports like it ever changed at the smaller GA fields..
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Skydrol
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:10 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 23):
Heck I think it looks OK... and graffiti certainly makes sitting at a railroad crossing a lot more interesting. Seeing the variety of 'artwork' rolling on by. Some of it is really elaborate.

Yeah, the "FLAME" tag looks pretty good there... I'd leave it. The rest... meh.

This video shows a similar aircraft painting process performed on a Dash 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Jy-6OFJsc




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b747400erf
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:45 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 20):
I doubt it is a street gang in LA and I agree with turn720, most taggers are middle class dudes/dudettes (white or otherwise) who want to get their name known and let's face it, painting a jet in a 'secure' airports is a pretty darn audacious way of doing that.

Not in Los Angeles, at the busiest GA airport in the world, in an area known for gangs. There was gang specific writing and no middle class white dude would be dumb enough to risk a prison sentence in an airport. They tag sides of buildings or freeway overpasses.
 
jourdan747
Topic Author
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:37 am

Anyone know who's Learjet that was?
 
slider
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:32 pm

Despicable.

What a shame when vandalism and gang activity spills over to the aviation world, and at a bizjet mecca like VNY besides!

I'd certainly ensure camera coverage around all ramp apron and hangar areas...
 
DualQual
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):


If the mentioned processes remove the paint completely and doesn't damage the aircraft, how is that not satisfactory?

Unfortunately with all things aviation, everything has to be approved. However this damage is repaired it has to be a fed certified process. It may very well have to be a complete repaint.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
srbmod
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting jourdan747 (Reply 29):

Anyone know who's Learjet that was?

From the article:

Quote:
The incident took place between 2 and 2:23 a.m. Sunday, causing an estimated $100,000 in damage to the Learjet Model 60 registered to an aviation company in Malibu, according to the sources, who asked not to be identified because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

None of the photos shown included any part of the registration, so it would be a bit harder to figure out who the a/c belongs to. If the photo search wasn't currently on the fritz, you might be able to pull up some possible leads that way and check the registrations on the FAA site.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 30):

Despicable.

What a shame when vandalism and gang activity spills over to the aviation world, and at a bizjet mecca like VNY besides!

I'd certainly ensure camera coverage around all ramp apron and hangar areas...

Maybe it will make people take property crimes like this more seriously...and no matter how you cut it, grafitti removal costs someone time and money!   
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
srbmod
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:33 pm

Now that the photo search is working again, I think I may have the plane based on the images from the article.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages



A quick check of the registration on the FAA website shows that the a/c is listed as being owned by Des Aviation LLC out of Malibu, California (which meshes with the mention in the article of the a/c being registered to a company in Malibu).

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=898PA
 
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alberchico
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:04 am

You want to see some serious aviation tagging check this out:

http://museedelta.free.fr/images/evenement/concorde_tag.jpg

Poor Concorde  
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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Moose135
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 34):

You found it! This news story includes a photo showing the N-number on the nacelle...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...=news/local/los_angeles&id=9171535
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
foxxray
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:46 am

It happened a few years ago at the Paris heliport, one helicopter (an AS350) has been graffitied and a few months before (or later ? I don't remember), the Concorde at ORY was also graffitied.
 
jourdan747
Topic Author
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RE: Gang Graffitied Plane At Van Nuys

Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:12 am

Any updates if they caught FLAME?

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