David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly, even if there but for the grace of god go I. We know our responsibilities, and those who don't uphold them shouldn't have them.

Talk about apples and oranges. How often do lawyers have 30 seconds to make a critical decision and not have hours or days to back out once they've had time to think about it? I don't know whether or not I should be surprised that a lawyer wouldn't want to know the full facts before declaring a verdict.

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):

Precisely. I don't think anyone has said the crew didn't make mistakes yet there are some who seem to think crew mistakes are all there is to this accident. Let's just keep sacking "incompetent" crews and see how much that advances aviation safety.
 
Norcal773
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
In all honesty, 385 hours is just about enough knowledge to kill yourself with out having the experience to see it coming.

Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
The pilot making an assumption that turns out not to be correct doesn't mean the system failed. It could be he turned on the heater in the back thinking the A/T was set as it should for all we know

That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
The NTSB comments shortly after the crash of OZ 214 did pretty much blame the pilots in the opinion of most people.

Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

Quoting David L (Reply 46):
The fact that some have interpreted that information to mean that it was pilot error with no significant contributing factors makes me pretty relieved that they're not responsible for flight safety.

It also gives some merit to what ALPA's complaints are.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly

I'd imagine that any lawyer who tried to convict someone based on a very limited set of evidence when they knew more was forthcoming would find themselves in a lot of trouble with their bar association, yes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 51):
Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?

No, but you come across with a tone of arrogance. That type of attitude has killed many pilots, especially low time ones when they get into situations they think they can handle but really can't. You keep stating that we are all closing ranks around the Asiana pilots when in fact that isn't true at all. Most of us are looking for the answer to the more important question of why this crash happened and not how it happened. How it happened is the least important answer. What we can learn from this crash is more important. Your lack of understanding of this concept shows you really have no idea how safety works at airlines. I would suggest you pick up a textbook on the subject of aviation safety and/or accident investigation.

I haven't read anything here that suggest pilots want to see these guys absolved of all responsibility and returned to duty. None of us want that because we all want professionalism in the cockpit because we take pride in our work. We also often ride on these aircraft enough to make frequent fliers look like first time fliers so we have a vested interest in making sure only competent pilots are at the controls.


I have nearly 7,000 hours but I don't consider myself an expert but rather an experienced and knowledgeable student. Expertise isn't a destination you arrive at but rather a goal you strive for but never reach.

A truly professional pilot admits that he/she doesn't know everything and that there is always room for improvement or something else to learn.



Oh and on a side note if you really get upset when ALPA does something like defend drunk or incompetent pilots (which I hate ) then you truly have no one to blame but the lawyers. They help the terminated employee sue the crap out both the company and the union the second after termination. There have been times when I wanted to see a pilot fired and stripped of their license, however if the best defense isn't provided a pilot by the union then they sue and they'll win and get their job back anyways. So in all honesty you should really blame the lawyers for the "union protection" you don't like.
 
airtechy
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:46 pm

All I would ask is that the "professional pilots" return to this or another thread and comment when we have the final report to comment on. The ones from AF447 were very interesting.

I have never read an accident report where pilot error was highlighted that didn't have some "causal effect" also mentioned and I've been reading accident reports since the mid sixties. Often times it also comes with yet another recommendation for a "warning message/bell/tone" to indicate to the pilot that he has screwed up. There will always be causal effects.

Also, the last I checked this was not a "professional pilots" forum although we have a lot that post here. Expect to see some criticism .... deal with it. In all honesty, I only have about 1,500 hours and the biggest plane was a King Air, but if you had handed that plane off to me configured correctly at 2000 feet, I think I could have landed on that runway.....under those conditions. After all, even a C150 comes with an airspeed indicator.

AT
 
Norcal773
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

Not necessarily.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

To clarify, the NTSB never blamed the pilots. If someone got that out of their news conferences, they made their own conclusions.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
No, but you come across with a tone of arrogance.

Same way you did so touche'. Classic example of superiority complex claiming I'd kill myself just because I only have 385 hours. I am sure you had the same amount of hours at some point and yet here you are. My initial post was a reply to Throttlehod's comment claiming I have zero experience on a 777 thus I shouldn't speak on the subject which is moot really because having experience on any aircraft doesn't give anyone a leg up on the subject of discussing the cause of the accident. I don't think anyone has told anyone how to fly an airplane on this thread but you pilots have a habit of using that line a lot even when it's irrelevant to the subject.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
You keep stating that we are all closing ranks around the Asiana pilots when in fact that isn't true at all.

Not all, but some...and you weren't even one of them so chill out.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
Your lack of understanding of this concept shows you really have no idea how safety works at airlines. I would suggest you pick up a textbook on the subject of aviation safety and/or accident investigation.

And your lack of general knowledge in differentiating between me criticizing ALPA and aviation safety in itself is appalling. Read and understand first before making as ass out of yourself, not sure how you're connecting the dots between me saying the pilots effed up and airline safety in general.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 51):
Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?

Nobody has until they do.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 54):
In all honesty, I only have about 1,500 hours and the biggest plane was a King Air, but if you had handed that plane off to me configured correctly at 2000 feet, I think I could have landed on that runway.....under those conditions.

I'd bet the Asiana pilots felt the same way. Yet the crash still happened, so while we all might like to think that we would have done better, we don't have nearly enough evidence to make an educated statement about that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Pihero
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:23 pm

I have followed these threads since the beginning, and I confess that they are quite an entertaining in-depth look at the A.net contributorship.

The first comment I’d make is about what is now called *Hindsight Bias * : We know the outcome of the accident, we have a few facts released by the NTSB and we feel quite free to join in the feeding frenzy and tear apart these crew ( even better when it is an *alien* group of people )… The obvious question I’d like to ask is obviously : ” How does that attitude contribute to improving flight safety ? “

I can’t fail but be amused with the fact that people in this forum don’t seem to have a clue on what is really involved : This crew have done thousands of approaches and landings, on several types of airplanes, a lot of them in VMC, and apparently have done so without any mishap whatsoever.

People also forget – or don’t seem to know – that all pilots have a Bible called the FCOM / FCTM in which the standards for every maneuver are discussed at length in order to promote flight safety in the guise of the airline *Flight Standards* leading to what we call SOPs.

People also ignore – or don’t want to consider – the events in the environment of this approach : What did the ATC clear them for ? How did the geometry of the approach change 1/- with ATC instructions (the 6° descent prior to stabilization ) ; 2/-visual estimation of height over water + radio altimeter information in these conditions.

People don’t have a clue on the characteristics of this cockpit : Was PM still in the *monitoring mode* when he left his Flight Director on – against all known SOPs - ? What FD mode was he in ? and was he conscious of the fact that the T7 didn’t have any speed protection below 400 ft when the divergence between Vref and the IAS became significant ?

There is an underlying problematic misconception in this thread : If an expert – be he/she a surgeon, a racing driver, a nuclear station engineer, a pilot … makes a mistake, it is *obviously* evidence of lacking skill, vigilance, consciousness, airmanship… That misconception is both very simplistic and wrong.
As a matter of fact, the main question should be : if pilots of the same skill and experience were to face a similar situation, would they be vulnerable to making the same kind of errors that led to the accident ?... and if so, WHY ?

As usual, the NTSB will identify the errors made by the crew, discuss the human factors that could have affected them, but will stop short of drawing conclusions that link the errors to the underlying causes. It will be up to the OEM and the airlines’ training departments to take the necessary measures.
Contrail designer
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
I am sure you had the same amount of hours at some point and yet here you are.

Yes I did, but I didn't have your attitude. I was far more humble.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
Classic example of superiority complex claiming I'd kill myself just because I only have 385 hours.

Not a claim, a warning. You come across as a know it all. Arrogance like that kills people



You clearly don't understand aviation safety based on these comments:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
The pilot making an assumption that turns out not to be correct doesn't mean the system failed. It could be he turned on the heater in the back thinking the A/T was set as it should for all we know
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 40):
The Problem with your 'facts' in regards to this accident is they're based on another accident, the TK crash.

What safety experts look for are trends. If there is a rash of accidents involving a similar circumstances then perhaps there is a connection. It could be poor training techniques or perhaps there really is an issue with the auto throttle software. The issue must be explored to prove it is unrelated instead of just assuming it isn't like you are doing.

AGAIN, that doesn't excuse the fact that the pilots made an error or absolve them of responsibility.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
Read and understand first before making as ass out of yourself, not sure how you're connecting the dots between me saying the pilots effed up and airline safety in general.

Explain to me how then saying the pilots "effed up" improves airline safety? It is true but that doesn't help anything because there are always other factors.


If you were in charge of airline safety CRM never would have been invented, TCAS wouldn't be in aircraft, and GPWS never would have come to be. Everything would have been "pilots effed" up let's ridicule them and move on. That type of attitude misses the opportunity to learn from mistakes and improve safety. Again no one is saying the pilots should be excused what we are asking is the far more important question of why the error was made.

Until all the facts are available, the question of why can't be answered accurately.
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):
As a matter of fact, the main question should be : if pilots of the same skill and experience were to face a similar situation, would they be vulnerable to making the same kind of errors that led to the accident ?... and if so, WHY ?

Perfectly stated
 
DashTrash
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
Oddly, pilots as a professional group seem on this forum more and more to be a group of professional excuse-makers skilled in letting themselves off the hook and assuming that they are never to blame.

Professional pilots on this forum visit with the realization that we aren't well liked. Check any labor / management thread or any thread discussing one of the labor unions.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):

That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

My take is no, unless other crews flying the same system have trouble identifying it's position.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):

Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

The NTSB does assign blame. That blame my lie on the crew, fatigue, weather, aircraft maintenance, etc, but it is blame.

ALPA was spot on with this statement. While it is common that information is disseminated to the public before the final report is out, in this case that information has been pretty damning. With this particular instance they should have kept it quiet.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
And serve as an illustration that so-called "pilot error" often involves a multitude of contributing factors, some of which need to be addressed regardless of pilot competence. I don't see pointing that out as a problem.

This thread is making one distinction very clear. Professional pilots who post here do not directly blame pilots for this accident and try to find and understand other contributing factors. That's all good and goes with the territory. Customers, on the other hand, expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. Is this too much of an expectation from the flying public?

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
I'm not excusing the lack of poor airmanship demonstrated by these Asiana pilots. Airspeed management is flying 101. However the investigation shouldn't end there and other contributing factors, like perhaps this potential auto-throttle issue, should be explored since there might be a negative safety trend developing. Perhaps further investigation reveals that there is a problem with the software or perhaps it reveals that Asiana is training their pilots to be over reliant on automation. Who knows, but I hope any and all human factors issues are explored by investigators.

All of you armchair experts seem satisfied with blaming the pilots and not entertaining the idea of contributing factors. If that was the prevailing attitude amongst the real safety experts then this industry would never see safety improvements.

This is a good summary of what's going on in this thread. Who in his right mind would not want to learn from this accident?!? Who even said that and where? At the same time, why is it a heresy to say that pilots might have messed up? My clients expect me to do my job right and I have every right to expect the same from the pilots whose customer I am.

And what does it even mean "armchair experts" here on A.net? Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here. No one here has access to the NTSB investigation, so this is all speculation be it from pilots or us "bad-wishers".

Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):
We know the outcome of the accident, we have a few facts released by the NTSB and we feel quite free to join in the feeding frenzy and tear apart these crew ( even better when it is an *alien* group of people )… The obvious question I’d like to ask is obviously : ” How does that attitude contribute to improving flight safety ? “

Again, who said we should just blame the pilots and leave it at that? This notion of how bunch of us don't care about aviation safety is a self-serving blame game pilots came up with so we feel really bad we even dare to question someone's skills.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Customers, on the other hand, expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. Is this too much of an expectation from the flying public?

This statement doesn't contradict this statement:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
This thread is making one distinction very clear. Professional pilots who post here do not directly blame pilots for this accident and try to find and understand other contributing factors. That's all good and goes with the territory.

And to clarify this, I am directly blaming the pilots for the error because they got too slow. However I want to know why they made this error. The answer could be as simple as they made a mistake and that seems to be the answer that the A-net crowd is satisfied with. There is a big resistance to even consider other contributing factors that lead to this error.

I'm not satisfied with the a-net answer because all the pertinent information hasn't been released yet and there could be a deeper reason why this error was made. It could be that there is deficient training or perhaps over reliance on the automation company wide. If that is the case it must be corrected so that you the customer flying from point A to point B knows you do have a competent trained pilot.

I'm not saying that is what happened, just an example of a possibility. We will not know until all the facts are gathered and analyzed. Deciding that this was simply pilot error eliminates the possibility of further exploration of contributing factors and could perhaps leave the problem uncorrected which could lead to another accident.

I point to the evolution of CRM as an example of looking at contributing factors leading to accidents and how correcting them can greatly improve safety.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here.

Which is why I'm saying don't jump to conclusions until all the facts are gathered.

[Edited 2013-07-20 16:40:52]
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:01 am

The phrase 'PILOT ERROR' should be stricken from the language.

IF the plane was working normally, and they and thousands of other pilots have flown much more difficult approaches with successful landings, what was different this time?

I am no apologist but pointing fingers does nothing to prevent another accident. These guys didn't drive the thing into the ground on a lark or a suicide mission...it looks like they screwed up so how do we prevent screwups like this from happening again?

That's the job of the NTSB and should really be what anybody who flies is concerned about and is how flying gets safer.

Was it bad or ignored CRM, distraction, glare, too much automation, not enough automation ,or all or some or none of these? Why should any pilot have to be told by the machine that they are too low mere seconds from landing? Hell, the ground is right there out the window for all to see. It sounds too far fetched to possibly be true...but it happened, and it's happened before...but WHY...?

There's that damned pesky question again. What started the chain of events that led to the accident? How were links added? What kept the chain from being broken. The accident event sequence possibly started before this flight even took off

Just think...if one event in the long series that created this accident could have been avoided and prevented it, how often have aircraft been only one link away from tragedy....but survived? Think of what we could learn from all of those almost accidents. Unfortunately, any landing you can walk away from is a success so most of those lessons probably go unlearned by others. Instead, we have to learn our lessons from actual tragedies.

If lynching these guys would make flying safer, then let's string them up. Hell, I'll get the rope...but I really don't think that would do one little thing to improve safety.

What went wrong and how to fix it is more important than who gets blamed...

...as always, in my opinion.
What the...?
 
Pihero
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Again, who said we should just blame the pilots and leave it at that? This notion of how bunch of us don't care about aviation safety is a self-serving blame game pilots came up with so we feel really bad we even dare to question someone's skills.

Problem is you don't have much to defend yourself ; Comments like "Pïlot error. period. / Pilot effed up. / passengers expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. ...
...it goes all into the problematic misconception I referred to.

I don't know how long you've been in this forum. There is a repetitive characteristic : thousands of posts of speculation and blame... until the official report is published. Then you'd be lucky to have 50 posts ( AF447 is the excep^tion that confirms the rule, but in fact the feeding frenzy kept going on as people weren't happy with the way the report was written ).
So, pleeeaase, I know bull when I see or read one.

Yes, pilots make mistakes. The best of us do . The role of those involved in flight safety is to put enough safeguards to minimize the extent / results of these mistakes : CRM is evolving everyday and so are technological improvements.

To illustrate my points, on both the human aspect of an error and how it's effect was reduced, I'd take Captain Sullenberger's Hudson ditching.

Nobody on this forum ever noticed that after the birdstrikes, Captain Sullenberger made a big mistake : He immediately called for the QRH referenced "DUAL ENGINE FAILURE" check-list. It's a five-page, multiple branching check-list which is fairly complex to deal with.

The problem was he lost his F/O to execute all the items of that procedure, run the risk of losing further systems - hydraulics come to mind - as the F/O went into shutting / relighting the running engines... etc... Had the crew taken the time to read the ECAM, they would have discovered that the engines were still running, albeit at a low thrust - one at sub-idle.

As his quick decision of ditching into the Hudson river was the new project and strategy, he would have the F/O execute the ditching check-list, just the 13 lines of it ; they would have kept on having good synergy and the F/O could have advised him on two important points : landing with full flaps and "Ditching " switchlight depressed...

As it happened, Captain Sullenberger's made-up-as-it went-along procedures worked on that day : the touch-down wasn't too hard at that high speed and that high a nose-up attitude and everybody survived.

We come again to the *hindsight bias* : everybody survived. Period. The pilot did a sterling job. Period. Let's pass on...

Did he do everything right ? Or shall we just forget all about the circumstances ?
Fortunately for aviation safety, quite a few training departments I know have made it their job to analyze what really happened.

That Captain Sullenberger is a rather exceptional pilot shouldn't hide the fact that at the very least he made things a lot more complicated for himself than they should have been.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here. No one here has access to the NTSB investigation, so this is all speculation be it from pilots or us "bad-wishers".

The huge difference is that the professional pilots on this forum have - almost unanimously - refrained from blame, be it on the pilots, the aircraft or the green little men. They've also refrained from speculations as there are very few facts to base a theory on... Fact as : *factors leading to the accident*.
The USALPA doesn't say anything different.

To be perfectly honest, pointing at some perceived civilisation criteria, lack of training, resistance to CRM... etc... to me is quite obscene.

Just my two cents.

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:50:20]

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:55:31]

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:57:52]
Contrail designer
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
Just think...if one event in the long series that created this accident could have been avoided and prevented it, how often have aircraft been only one link away from tragedy....but survived? Think of what we could learn from all of those almost accidents. Unfortunately, any landing you can walk away from is a success so most of those lessons probably go unlearned by others. Instead, we have to learn our lessons from actual tragedies.

This is what programs like ASAP are for. It allows pilots to self-disclose minor mistakes with out fear of retribution from the FAA or the company. These are mistakes that could easily be the start of a series of events that lead to an accident.

The amount of data generated, and the negative safety trends identified have proven invaluable. There is simply no way to definitively prove how many accidents programs like this or the development of other safety things CRM have prevented but I can promise you it is a lot.

The success of something like ASAP goes back to the idea of learning from mistakes (in this case small, inconsequential ones) in order to identify potential problem areas and potentially break an accident chain before a tragedy occurs.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 65):

I never heard of ASAP....good to know....thanks.
What the...?
 
norcal
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 66):
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/

It is very similar in concept to the ASRS system used by general aviation.
 
Norcal773
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 58):
Not a claim, a warning. You come across as a know it all. Arrogance like that kills people

Funny you said that because you sound like those pilots nobody wants to fly with. The my way or the highway kinda pilots. You could learn a lot from the likes of respected pilots like Pihero, Philsquares, 76er, mandala499 etc although I haven't seen him in a while. Anyways, not worth it going back and forth with you so it is what it is.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 940
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 62):
We will not know until all the facts are gathered and analyzed.

I don't remember saying that "the investigation should be closed as I believe this is a pilot error and we shouldn't learn anything from it". Sorry if I'm reading too much into what you guys post here, but I see this subtle accusation in most of the pilot messages here.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 64):
The huge difference is that the professional pilots on this forum have - almost unanimously - refrained from blame, be it on the pilots, the aircraft or the green little men. They've also refrained from speculations as there are very few facts to base a theory on...

Pihero, first off, thanks for taking time to write a long and detailed response. My impression was that pilots were speculating away from a possible pilot error and into other factors for collegial reasons, but looking back I think I will read these messages with a different pair of glasses. I got a sense of where you all are coming from and if I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 64):
Problem is you don't have much to defend yourself

Some of these are not mine and I don't want to be an advocate of all the "customers".

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
What went wrong and how to fix it is more important than who gets blamed...

I agree.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:31 am

Looks like 'some pennies are dropping' in South Korea:-

"South Korea plans to tighten aviation rules and could consider allowing airlines to hire more foreign pilots as the crash of an Asiana Airlines Inc. (020560) jet raises concerns about the nation’s safety regulations.

"The government will draw up the stricter rules in about three months after studying regulations on the training of pilots, cabin crew and maintenance personnel, said Kwon Yong Bok, director general of aviation safety policy at the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport. A committee comprising aviation industry and government officials will meet next week to review the current rules, he said in an interview yesterday.

"Three people were killed while more than 300 survived after Asiana’s Boeing Co. 777 crashed at San Francisco International Airport on July 6, the first fatal airline accident in the U.S. since 2009. U.S. crash investigators are examining the manual flying skills and cockpit teamwork among the pilots of Flight 214 as they probe reasons for the accident."


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...les-in-3-months-after-asiana-crash

"SEOUL, South Korea — Asiana Airlines of South Korea said Monday that it would increase training for its pilots after the crash of one of its Boeing 777 jets at San Francisco International Airport.

"Asiana will give special safety training, including an enhanced program for visual approaches and automated flight, to all of its pilots. It said it would also strengthen its training programs for those switching to a new type of jet, a senior executive said in a presentation to the South Korean Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport."


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/bu...ana-to-bolster-pilot-training.html

And this is 'unofficial' - but nevertheless electrifying if true:-

"We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

"This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued to fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was."


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3041469/posts
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 68):
Funny you said that because you sound like those pilots nobody wants to fly with. The my way or the highway kinda pilots.

Your opinion I guess, but like I said before I'm always looking to learn something new:

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
A truly professional pilot admits that he/she doesn't know everything and that there is always room for improvement or something else to learn.

but I guess my admittance that safety and expertise are moving targets makes me a "my way or the highway kinda of pilot."  Yeah sure
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 68):
You could learn a lot from the likes of respected pilots like Pihero

Ironic, considering his viewpoint on this matter and mine are pretty much identical....

[Edited 2013-07-20 22:37:07]
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash

Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:01 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 69):
My impression was that pilots were speculating away from a possible pilot error and into other factors for collegial reasons

You're not the only one to be doing that, but the problem with that impression is the thinking that looking at other factors excludes pilot error, when that's not at all the case - the other factors are what led to the pilot error, and ultimately it's going to be through dealing with those factors that we work to reduce the likelihood of future similar errors. It's not a one-or-the-other proposition.

It's very likely the crew made some mistakes here, and obviously should be held responsible for them. But fairness requires that they only be held responsible for what they actually did wrong, not labeled with blanket criticisms based on incomplete information. And since we don't yet know exactly what they did wrong, I'm very hesitant to lay any responsibility at their feet for the moment - there will be plenty of time for that once we know more about what actually happened. If that's considered looking after one of our own, so be it, though I'd venture that most people, pilots or not, would want to be treated that way if they screwed up at work.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 69):
I got a sense of where you all are coming from and if I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

The sentiment is much appreciated, thanks.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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