Oh brother. YYC will be what it will be; YVR will be what it will be. YVR will always be the far superior international gateway, what with its larger and more diverse population and, more importantly, its advantageous western geographic position. YYC will clearly outstrip it in domestic growth for the foreseeable future but it'll never be the international draw that YVR can provide. Postcards can almost tell the whole story from a tourist's POV. From a controller's perspective, with the parallel opening next year, it'll be interesting to see if YYC can catch and possibly surpass YVR in the coming years in terms of aircraft movements (and I'm referring to those that actually utilize pavement, not water). Should be good fun.
[Edited 2013-07-24 06:28:31]
Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
YYC is similar to what DEN is in the United States; geographically isolated major city which happens to be a perfect connecting point for East to West traffic. With that being said, YYC will always be a major player in Canada. It will be interesting to see how AC's introduction of the 787 will affect YYC. Will be see more destinations to Asia to places like PEK from YYC? Perhaps. Only time will tell. One thing's for sure, YYC's red hot economy isn't showing many signs of slowing down.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting Noise (Reply 51): YYC is similar to what DEN is in the United States; geographically isolated major city which happens to be a perfect connecting point for East to West traffic. |
Very deceiving. But having flown YVR-YYC on both AC and WS, and also having flown BUR-DEN, SAN-DEN, SEA-DEN, SFO-DEN, SJC-DEN, and LAX-DEN on OO and UA -- I can say they are *not* the same.
For instance, San Francisco to Denver is 965 sm and you get breakfast or lunch in the front of the plane.
However, YVR-YYC is only 426 sm (half the distance) and the FAs actually have to hustle to get the drinks carts out of the aisles.
Thus, in a business sense, there's no reason why YYC couldn't do Trans-Pacific service. In a social sense, YYC is even *less* diverse than DEN is -- thus no demand.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 52): Very deceiving. But having flown YVR-YYC on both AC and WS, and also having flown BUR-DEN, SAN-DEN, SEA-DEN, SFO-DEN, SJC-DEN, and LAX-DEN on OO and UA -- I can say they are *not* the same. For instance, San Francisco to Denver is 965 sm and you get breakfast or lunch in the front of the plane. However, YVR-YYC is only 426 sm (half the distance) and the FAs actually have to hustle to get the drinks carts out of the aisles. |
I meant it more in the sense that the purpose of a YYC hub is similar to the purpose of a DEN hub. I was not comparing YYC's distance to the Pacific ocean to DEN's distance to the Pacific. Not deceiving at all if you read my post properly.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
Lots of good points that have been well covered, but I just want to shed some light on something that was missed in the talk of YVR vs. YYC as a better hub location. Calgary gets a good chunk of connecting traffic from Saskatchewan, even if it means a slight backtrack. WS has more daily seats and flights from YXE/YQR-YYC than to even YYZ. Additionally, if you look at the distances from YQR/YXE to places like SAN, LAX, SFO, PHX, and LAS, YYC is actually a much better connection. So while YVR is certainly a superior O&D market and connections to destinations like Hawaii and pacific routes, YYC has a large catchment area not only around Alberta, but also Saskatchewan which is is the only economy in Canada that rivals Alberta's growth.
If we're talking Asian populations, the numbers I'm looking at has YYC with a much larger percentage of Asian residents... Doesn't necessarily mean it warrants more transpac flights overpassing YVR, but the population isn't insignificant.
| Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 52): In a social sense, YYC is even *less* diverse than DEN is -- thus no demand. |
If we're talking Asian populations, the numbers I'm looking at has YYC with a much larger percentage of Asian residents... Doesn't necessarily mean it warrants more transpac flights overpassing YVR, but the population isn't insignificant.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
There are rumours out there of a new long haul route; seasonal, that would serve YEG and YYC on one of the legs.
Guess away!
Guess away!
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting saloman (Reply 54): Lots of good points that have been well covered, but I just want to shed some light on something that was missed in the talk of YVR vs. YYC as a better hub location. Calgary gets a good chunk of connecting traffic from Saskatchewan, even if it means a slight backtrack. WS has more daily seats and flights from YXE/YQR-YYC than to even YYZ. |
YYC is likely a superior domestic hub, while YVR is a better airport for international connections.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
What would be interesting to know is the percentage of people traveling to YVR from Asia for business versus leisure purposes, and how that compares to Asian travelers going to YYC.
Back in the late 1990s, I went on vacation to Calgary and Banff. Half of the coach cabin out of ORD and an AA MD-80 was an Asian tour group. It seemed that anywhere we went in Calgary and Banff, there was one, if not two tour buses with Asian tourists.
So, I suspect that YYC is more a tourist destination for Asain travelers, while it probably gets more business flyers out of the U.S., in part, because a number of oil companies have Canadian headquarters in Calgary.
Back in the late 1990s, I went on vacation to Calgary and Banff. Half of the coach cabin out of ORD and an AA MD-80 was an Asian tour group. It seemed that anywhere we went in Calgary and Banff, there was one, if not two tour buses with Asian tourists.
So, I suspect that YYC is more a tourist destination for Asain travelers, while it probably gets more business flyers out of the U.S., in part, because a number of oil companies have Canadian headquarters in Calgary.
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- Hawaiian763
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting c172akula (Reply 55): There are rumours out there of a new long haul route; seasonal, that would serve YEG and YYC on one of the legs. |
| Quoting ckfred (Reply 57): Back in the late 1990s, I went on vacation to Calgary and Banff. Half of the coach cabin out of ORD and an AA MD-80 was an Asian tour group. It seemed that anywhere we went in Calgary and Banff, there was one, if not two tour buses with Asian tourists. |
| Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 58): Got my bets placed on either China or South Korea. Don't see any new flights to Europe out of YYC or YEG |
Didn't KE used to have a flight to YYC a few days a week during summers? Wouldn't surprise me to see something like this return.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting saloman (Reply 60): Didn't KE used to have a flight to YYC a few days a week during summers? Wouldn't surprise me to see something like this return. |
Sure did! JAL and ANA also had charters years back around that time. I had quite a few shots of those aircraft here in YYC when they were around, even managed to work my way in to the flight decks of each of them a few times.
Photo © Shane Walker
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting miaskies (Reply 6): Doesnt WS codeshare with AA on many routes? YYC - MIA, makes perfect sense if that partnership still exists. |
WS I believe they also codeshare with DL now and the partnership between AA and WS may not be in force anymore, but I don't know for sure.
| Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 5): Very excited to see Miami-Calgary. Awesome news. |
I thought that Western Canada went more to places like western Mexico and Hawaii.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting brilondon (Reply 62): WS I believe they also codeshare with DL now and the partnership between AA and WS may not be in force anymore, but I don't know for sure. |
AA is WestJet's main U.S. codeshare partner; but yes, WestJet also codeshares with Delta.
| Quoting brilondon (Reply 62): I thought that Western Canada went more to places like western Mexico and Hawaii. |
But they also love Florida and go to Florida in very large numbers, both Miami and Orlando.
a.
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- Viscount724
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- Viscount724
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting ckfred (Reply 57): So, I suspect that YYC is more a tourist destination for Asian travelers, while it probably gets more business flyers out of the U.S., in part, because a number of oil companies have Canadian headquarters in Calgary. |
China now has major investments in several Canadian oil companies, for example Husky Energy with headquarters in YYC, one of Canada's largest integrated oil companies. Several of their senior executives are Chinese, including both the CEO and Chairman. The company has been 70% controlled by HKG billionaire Li Ka Shing for several years. They also have exploration activities in several parts of Asia.
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- abrelosojos
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
Good move by WS. It will be interesting to see how their network grows now that they lost one of the smartest network planning managers I know.
Saludos,
Alex
Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
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- Viscount724
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 66): Good move by WS. It will be interesting to see how their network grows now that they lost one of the smartest network planning managers I know. |
That was a year ago.
http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswir.../press_releases/2012/07/30/AQ48660
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- Thenoflyzone
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 66): Good move by WS. It will be interesting to see how their network grows now that they lost one of the smartest network planning managers I know. |
The words "smart" and "manager" seldom go hand in hand. He must be one the exceptions i guess.
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting Noise (Reply 49): As long as the Oil & Gas Industry remains hot the potential to surpass YVR will always be there. Alberta has roughly 800,000 million fewer people than BC yet it already has a larger GDP (not to mention a sky-high GDP per capita). Indeed, Alberta is the economic powerhouse of the west. If the growth in Alberta continues and the Oil & Gas remains hot, I am positive that we'll see YYC surpass YVR in passenger enplaned/deplaned within 10-20 years. |
I've yet to understand the connection between the oil and gas industry and an exponential growth in traffic. Sure Calgary is home to most of the large companies, but that doesn't generate huge amounts of air traffic. In today's business climate it's just as easy, and much cheaper, to skype/have virtual meetings instead of flying to Houston etc. Sure there is a portion of the traffic that otherwise would not be there, but not nearly enough to overcome 3-4 million passengers a year. What you're forgetting is that BC has a robust natural resource sector as well, especially as timber prices continue to climb. The amount of money in proposed and under construction LNG terminals on the coast rivals activity in the oilsands. Not to mention the effect increased production in the US is having on crude prices. All economics aside, YYC is a busy airport, but it will never catch up, or surpass YVR.
What will be interesting is how AC will utilize YVR & YYC once the 787's come online, and how the Encore vs Jazz/Sky Regional battle plays out.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting ANM604 (Reply 70): I've yet to understand the connection between the oil and gas industry and an exponential growth in traffic. Sure Calgary is home to most of the large companies, but that doesn't generate huge amounts of air traffic. In today's business climate it's just as easy, and much cheaper, to skype/have virtual meetings instead of flying to Houston etc. Sure there is a portion of the traffic that otherwise would not be there, but not nearly enough to overcome 3-4 million passengers a year. What you're forgetting is that BC has a robust natural resource sector as well, especially as timber prices continue to climb. The amount of money in proposed and under construction LNG terminals on the coast rivals activity in the oilsands. Not to mention the effect increased production in the US is having on crude prices. All economics aside, YYC is a busy airport, but it will never catch up, or surpass YVR. |
Those oil companies DO generate a large amount of air traffic, although I'm not sure they are included in the total numbers. There are multiple companies at the south end operating to the oil sands and northern BC. The company I work for, North Cariboo, operates 7 Dash 8s, 7 B1900s, 9 B200s and a BAE146. With more aircraft on the way including 2 RJ100s this fall. Most of these aircraft are operating 2 flights a day out of YYC. On top of that Canadian North, Enerjet and Flair operate many flights for Cariboo with B733/4/7 as far east as YYT. The latest I've heard is North Cariboo is 3rd busiest in YYC behind AC and WJ.
Canadian North also operates their own charters up the oil sands, Suncor has their own flight department with 3 CRJ900 and a 200, Regional 1 with Dash 8-100/300s, Sunwest with Dash 8-300 and many B1900s and 200s and multiple jets.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting ANM604 (Reply 70): What will be interesting is how AC will utilize YVR & YYC once the 787's come online, and how the Encore vs Jazz/Sky Regional battle plays out. |
It seems to me like AC are going to be consolidating their fleet slightly, with a Boeing widebody fleet and a toss-up on the narrowbodies (I'd say CSeries, and maybe MAX-8, -9 or A32x for busier routes)
YVR will remain the Pacific hub, hopefully with a few extra destinations considering the extra 7 a/c (37 788s to replace 30 763s), and we'll probably see some 789s ordered to replace the A330s as well, though likely after the narrowbody replacement.
Encore may spark a price war, but more likely things will remain stagnant as both airlines try to shovel people into their networks. WS may find themselves longing to increase codeshares, join an alliance or introduce intercontinental service of their own to compete against AC's intercontinental product, although the latter of these would be quite a significant change in business plan.
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- abrelosojos
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67): That was a year ago. http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswir.../press_releases/2012/07/30/AQ48660 |
= John was a big loss. I was referring to this:
Live, and let live.
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- abrelosojos
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RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67): That was a year ago. http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswir...48660 |
= John was good. A bit old school CP, but good. I wonder why he left for VX though. I was referring to this guy:
http://news.silobreaker.com/intervis...ine-strategy-5_2266933702183354421
| Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 68): The words "smart" and "manager" seldom go hand in hand. He must be one the exceptions i guess. Thenoflyzone |
= Haha. Mostly agreed. Though, WS and most others are not run like AC where everyone is a "manager" to prevent unionization.
Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting opethfan (Reply 72): It seems to me like AC are going to be consolidating their fleet slightly, with a Boeing widebody fleet and a toss-up on the narrowbodies (I'd say CSeries, and maybe MAX-8, -9 or A32x for busier routes) |
I've been predicting, based only on comments we have seen in the press from AC executives, that the carrier will phase out the Embraer 190s and replace the older Airbus narrowbodies in the main AC fleet with a mixed order of C-Series and Airbus NEO A320s and A319s, starting with the A320s as they are the oldest. We already know A319s are going to Rouge and the A321s were introduced just a little over a decade ago.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
What would replace the AC's E-jets?
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
And are all the A319s going to Rouge?
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
| Quoting Noise (Reply 78): And are all the A319s going to Rouge? |
These are my educated guesses based on the few comments I have seen in the press. The fleet currently has 35 A319s and the stated plan is for Rouge to have a fleet of 12 A319s by the end of the next winter season. Comments about the eventual fleet plan of Rouge have been "up to 30" A319s.
RE: WS Releases Winter 13/14 Schedule, Adds YYC-MIA
Guys... This thread is about WS's schedule, not AC's future fleet order. Lets try to keep it on topic.
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
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