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m11stephen
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 48):
As mentioned above, AEGS employees do not receive flight benefits and the airline's career site is very clear about this. I agree that, if not for the flight benefits, I have no idea why someone would put themselves through the stress and general thanklessness of working in the airline industry for $10/hour.

I know several Eagle agents who do nothing but ground handle UAX flights and the DO get American flight benefits... I'm not sure whose flights the AEGS agents work...
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
OB1504
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 50):
I know several Eagle agents who do nothing but ground handle UAX flights and the DO get American flight benefits... I'm not sure whose flights the AEGS agents work...

I think they generally handle auxiliary services like wheelchair pushers. Glad to hear the Eagle agents receive travel privileges.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
Average CEO compensation has increased 1000% since 1950. Companies aren't doing a 1000% better so we are way over paying for executives

Wow good point, its one reason the US is where it is today... almost bankrupt..    a race to the bottom
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 37):

UA is the master of RJs. I am not surprised 70% of the flights are now non-mainline.

Not surprising when you consider the fact that airlines have wanted to increase frequency but cut capacity over the past 20 years. What you have to accept, although difficult for fanboys, is that within the domestic sphere, legacy carriers are mostly marketing organizations that primarily serve the largest business markets and mega tourist destinations like Florida and Vegas. Other than that, the regional carriers are doing thheavy lifting for the majors.

In the meantime, it is truly a shame that UA is cutting so many mainline jobs. I believe this has happened many times before at AA/NW/DL as well within the past 10 years, and it will happen again in the future. This is just another smashing down of the American worker so as to enrich "investors", which include banks managing 401k portfolios and the wealthy, such as airline executives. Capitalism has its benefits for the golden handful.
 
n7371f
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:50 pm

I thought TUS was farmed out a few years back. United had changed the ticket counter backdrop from UA to UA Express as well.

I also find it interesting that GEG continues to be mainline staffed with a meager 2 flights to DEN. Not even 10 years ago, UA was running 4x SFO, 2x ORD and 3x DEN.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 53):
smashing down of the American worker so as to enrich "investors"

Do you know who the largest institutional investor in the United States of America is?

California Public Employees Retirement System CALPERS for short. The pension funds and 401ks that workers desperately cling to are often the same ones pushing for more efficiency and more profit, which in some cases does put people out of work. Capitalism works for more than just the golden few. "A rising tide lifts all boats", quality of life in the USA today is far better than it has been at almost any point in the past.
 
COSPN
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:30 am

I thought CALPERS was going broke paying out 100,000 a year ,,payments to thousands of retirees that knew who to milk the system.. It amazing how one generation will stick the next with a huge bill..
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 54):
I also find it interesting that GEG continues to be mainline staffed with a meager 2 flights to DEN. Not even 10 years ago, UA was running 4x SFO, 2x ORD and 3x DEN.

Same for BOI. But they seem to switch 1 ORD with mainline seasonally.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
airbazar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting TW870 (Reply 13):
There is a lot of talk in the media about "restoring the middle class" and "creating jobs". This is one clear, specific example of where the middle class jobs are going. With this deal you will take 250 jobs that pay a relatively decent wage, and replace them with jobs that pay far less.

I do not, however, want to make a negative comment about the actual people who work at outsourced stations, as I see subcontracted customer service agents do efficient, smart work all across the United system.

and yet you're saying that they make less money. Unless you have proof of that you shouldn't make that assumption.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
No, America overpays its executives. It's not a market based system but one that is based off of cronyism. All of these guys serve on each other's boards and collectively decide they are worth far more then they really are.

If you think America overpays executives, then its even more critical the airline industry follow along and not be left lagging with competitive pay, especially for mid-level management as otherwise it will continue to fall ever further behind in its ability to attract and retain talent.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 49):
Delta Global Services, so far as I am aware, are wholly owned by Delta Air Lines. DGS rampers whom I've met have told me that they make $10-11 an hour, and have online flight privileges only -- that is, they can fly standby at the employee rate only on DL or the airline they happen to be handling, and when they do, they are far down on the standby list.

$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

You could get raises, but by the time you got the raises, the mainline carrier would decide to hold an RFP for the contract, a new company would come in and take over the contract and you'd reset your seniority and pay with the new company.

Contractors are terrible for employees whether the employees of the contractor realize it or not. There is no security whatsoever, benefits are garbage, and the contractors rotate out enough to keep pushing you at the bottom of the payscale.
 
OB1504
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

How long ago was this? I'm very grateful that my particular job function is covered by a living wage ordinance and I can count on $13.82 per hour.
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
You could get raises, but by the time you got the raises, the mainline carrier would decide to hold an RFP for the contract, a new company would come in and take over the contract and you'd reset your seniority and pay with the new company.

That has happened quite a bit where a contract was re-upped for bid and the company who won it wanted to re-hire the staff at a "starting" much lower wage, instead of where there was previously being paid. Makes it bad for the employees who wanted to stick it out. That's the downside of all of this. You can't keep good people who know the job and the systems like that.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 61):
How long ago was this? I'm very grateful that my particular job function is covered by a living wage ordinance and I can count on $13.82 per hour.

I understand the MIA and maybe SFO have a different starting scale. sCO used to have it (for years 1 thru 4) but met in the middle years and everybody topped out the same rate. Is this rate for DGS or DL Ready Reserve?
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
iad51fl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:42 am

What upsets me most about this... is how they state the new handler will re-hire some of the affected staff but at starting wages. Then expect them to use the knowledge obtained during their time with the contracted carrier to work the contract. I have even seen some contract handlers hire laid off workers, give them supervisor positions.. then cut the position once they have trained all of the contract handlers staff.

I know a guy in KAVL who has bounced between 3 ground handlers dealing with the same carrier. Each time getting placed at the bottom of the list, with poor pay and even split shifts.

Contract handlers never will be better than the carriers own staff as they have nothing invested in the operation of the airline. I have worked for both airlines and handling companies and the handling companies were some of the worst ran companies I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

When you pay a person just a little more than minimum wage, change their schedule every week with 2 days notice, give them a quick training period where you pencil whip all the sign offs... you get uncaring and uninvested workers.

CE
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Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 63):
I know a guy in KAVL who has bounced between 3 ground handlers dealing with the same carrier. Each time getting placed at the bottom of the list, with poor pay and even split shifts.

Some comedian used to have a saying "Here's your sign". If it was that bad, he should've moved industries.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 63):
Contract handlers never will be better than the carriers own staff as they have nothing invested in the operation of the airline. I have worked for both airlines and handling companies and the handling companies were some of the worst ran companies I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

That's an awfully extreme statement, don't you think? Certainly, there are good and bad stations, both company handled and outsourced. When NW outsourced in 2006 or so, the outsourced stations were pretty uniformly lousy. But when flying US today, I'd rather deal with Piedmont or ZW stations that US mainline stations. The staff are almost uniformly nicer and often more competent.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:24 pm

Well 45 additional stations are being evaluated by the company for financial and operational performance and decisions to be made to outsource or continue in-house staffing. Sounds like a big tidal wave of outsourcing is about to hit.

This company sucks. Smisek and company is a joke.
 
ouboy79
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 66):
Well 45 additional stations are being evaluated by the company for financial and operational performance and decisions to be made to outsource or continue in-house staffing. Sounds like a big tidal wave of outsourcing is about to hit.

This company sucks. Smisek and company is a joke.

The industry isn't one you can retire in anymore, unless you are in mid/upper management and have a nice parachute attached.
 
azstar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:30 pm

It's a downward spiral at UA. The more they outsource flying to regional carriers and replace experienced customer service personnel with the lowest bidder, the more high fare frequent fliers avoid the airline altogether. The executive geniuses have decided that this is a good business plan.
 
rising
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
If anything airlines need to pay much more to get the best and brightest out of US business schools and be able attract talent away from other industries.

It's been my experience that the best talent is not motivated by the money.
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
 
ouboy79
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting rising (Reply 69):
It's been my experience that the best talent is not motivated by the money.

IMO, culture and quality of the business trumps money any day.
 
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malaysia
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):
From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?

Yes same priority as mainline DL (parents would also bump a DGS front line worker) and also all DL ZED/ID benefits

But I do not know if things have changed since then, I heard benefits were worse than before?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 65):
I'd rather deal with Piedmont or ZW stations that US mainline stations. The staff are almost uniformly nicer and often more competent.

Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
N908AW
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes same priority as mainline DL (parents would also bump a DGS front line worker) and also all DL ZED/ID benefits

But I do not know if things have changed since then, I heard benefits were worse than before?

That is correct. DGS supervisors and higher have standard Delta flight benefits...whereas frontline DGS boards below regional employees (not pass riders). I also believe they board equal to buddies on OO/EV. So this is quite a step down for those ex-Regional Elite people.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.

I don't necessarily disagree, but most of the regional handling at smaller stations in the US is by "real airlines," not the likes of Swissport.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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KGRB
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 43):
This has created issues in some cities where the contractor ground handles multiple companies. I flew UA out of ATW recently, and the inbound flight on EV landed early and they did everything right. However the ground handler in ATW is DGS, who also handles Delta. Delta had a DTW flight departing at the same time the UA flight got into ATW. DGS staffs the station to handle both carriers, so all the people in ATW were busy handling the DL flight. Because of this the EV flight had to wait 20 minutes to get marshalled into the gate. The outbound flight to ORD ended up being delayed as a result of this, and I nearly misconnected in ORD as a result. And in a lot of smaller stations where one ground handler ends up winning all the ground handling contracts...this is becoming the norm.


I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience flying out of ATW! This station has been understaffed since the Regional Elite-to-DGS transition and the turnover rate, like most DGS, stations is quite high. As a result some days can be more challenging than others. I don't think I was on duty for this particular flight (an aircraft waiting for 20 minutes for a gate would definitely stick out in my mind), but I doubt the reason that the DTW flight left first was some kind of DL loyalty. I believe that most of us here put as much effort in handling the UA product as we do with the DL product.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):

From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?


You are partially correct; ZED/interline travel is now available to all DGS employees (as it was with Regional Elite), but non-supervisory personnel do fly at a lower standby priority and don't have Delta badges.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 54):
I thought TUS was farmed out a few years back. United had changed the ticket counter backdrop from UA to UA Express as well.


With this latest rebranding, UA has done away with 'United Express' airport signage. It all says 'United' now, regardless of the operator.
First flight: NW DC-10 MKE-MSP December 1996
Most recent flight: DL/9E CRJ-900 LGA-MSN January 2020
 
COSPN
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:38 am

Is that even Legal ??

not to nitpick but ...one example ..."outsourced" min wage employee puts wrong AOG small parts box on a scheduled flight to fix the broken part on a grounded flight.. but the part he send out is the wrong one   . the Plane is grounded for another 21 hours, at an International Location ?? how much did that cost United ? 20,000 more or less for the 10 to 20 hours it took to get it right... sometimes its not smart to outsource some things.. and it is difficult to do the accounting there is no way they will tag the vendor for those costs, so United "eats it" ..but this is just an Example of "you get what you pay for".. also many of the managers of some of these vendors were fired form Airlines or other ground service providers for exactly the same thing.. also there is extra layer of managers the United managers looking over the vendor managers looking over the low wage Employees ?? One of those groups should go, to save money... so in this case there are about 3 or 4 managers 2 vendor 2 United then the Employee does not make $ sense...and If they determine want to fire him after 50 or 60 hours of Investigations ($4000 to $5000) in Managers time..then " who cares" he/she can easily get another Job making $8 per hour..so Emp looses the $8 per hour job and United is out about 25,000 for the day..

[Edited 2013-08-05 01:55:35]

[Edited 2013-08-05 01:58:19]
 
deltal1011man
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Handlers can be held to a host of high performance standards, and face everything from penalties to eventual loss of the contract if they don't uphold service delivery.

except that they aren't.
but they can be.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):

Provided that the customer-facing employees (CSRs and such) are adequately trained on the airline's systems, policies and procedures to service customers, especially during IRROPS. It's a lose-lose situation at stations with primarily regional ops and poorly-trained outsourced staff above the wing, as those operations are generally more susceptible to delays/cancellations for ATC and weather issues.

nah thats not needed.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
DGS

I hate the company. its like cancer.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
Well has it come to no mainline employees will ever work for an airline besides pilots and flight attendants.

thats the point. (and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.) UA has shown with the last TA they are ready to completely outsource everything. If you guys let them then you just killed it for everyone. Please don't screw up like the mechanics. (thanks to UA and AA....10x AA.....the chances of heavy airframe work every being done in house ever again is probably gone.)

but its not like yalls unions are doing anything. (of course the .gov won't let anyone walk in more)

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):

IIRC MQ has a huge ground dept. I believe OO does also.
Comair use to have gound contracts all over then it went to RHS and now i think most of it was picked up by DGS. Gah i hate that company.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 22):
DL has there own employees at ALB, IIRC

uh no. Probably DGS.
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
IIRC MQ has a huge ground dept. I believe OO does also.
Comair use to have gound contracts all over then it went to RHS and now i think most of it was picked up by DGS. Gah i hate that company.

From what I understand, OO ground employees are getting squeezed and having to take paycuts to match DGS and Eagle. Pretty soon, they will be the two biggest (domestically), and a new "race to the bottom" begins by who can do it the cheapest.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
thats the point. (and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.) UA has shown with the last TA they are ready to completely outsource everything. If you guys let them then you just killed it for everyone. Please don't screw up like the mechanics. (thanks to UA and AA....10x AA.....the chances of heavy airframe work every being done in house ever again is probably gone.)

That's why that TA had to be turned down. It would have been worse for the entire industry. We have to hold the line on scope. Otherwise we all will be gone sooner or later. I for one rather go down fighting..... It's just not about us, every other workgroup (well, maybe not the pilots) will be affected.

I still don't like the idea of giving money away to your direct competition.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
I hate the company. its like cancer.

And it's spreading fast. And Eagle is trying to match them every step of the way on the race to the bottom.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
(and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.)
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
but its not like yalls unions are doing anything

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value? Would you have been better off using that money to pay for your kid (yourself) to go to college?

That's my question, regardless of the good/evil debate, do you believe the dues are worth it?

[Edited 2013-08-05 07:39:39]
 
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mercure1
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:27 pm

What is this animosity against ground handlers in US?

3rd party handling is even bigger outside US, and where certainly one don't view them with the same negative light.

Some major airports are even virtually 100% vendor handling where the home hub carrier even does not have its own staff.

From an airlines point of view there often is no compelling case to maintain own staff for such basic (and rather unskilled) repetitive duties can be contracted out.

The US is simply catching up to what much of the world has been doing for decades.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
except that they aren't.
but they can be.

Then shame on the airlines for not managing their vendors.
mercure f-wtcc
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 79):
What is this animosity against ground handlers in US?

3rd party handling is even bigger outside US, and where certainly one don't view them with the same negative light.

Some major airports are even virtually 100% vendor handling where the home hub carrier even does not have its own staff.

From an airlines point of view there often is no compelling case to maintain own staff for such basic (and rather unskilled) repetitive duties can be contracted out.

The US is simply catching up to what much of the world has been doing for decades.

Because it is a whole lot different here. The aviation industry here in the US is heavily unionized. That affects non union carriers as well, because of the closeness of pay between each carrier. It is governed by the Railway Act, which is why that is hasn't been decimated like other unions. It's about the lack of pay and benefits of the contractors. And stability. You are as only good as your next contract. Read most of the above comments in this thread and you will understand why the hatred. Especially losing your job to some contractor who pays their employees squat with the high turnover.

I understand that for all of the international flights, there are mainly done by ground handlers. Mainly widebody flights. I assume that they pay much better than what the contractors pay for domestic flights. Which are mainly regional jets and some mainline. And I'll bet overseas, they pay more or at least a salary you can live on.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
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mercure1
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:28 pm

It seems that US would be ideal place in world for things like 3rd party airport handling. You have worlds largest service industry base, you have basically the freest labor markets, you have easy barrier of entry for business if you want to form something like a handling company, and you have a huge potential market to service.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
The aviation industry here in the US is heavily unionized.

And you don't think its so in Europe for example? Even a bread baker can be a social collective member.

But yet, vendor airport services are thriving.

The EU even created legislation to ensure even more competitive handling landscape by breaking up formerly near-monopoly handling situations in some counties where you only had a few companies to chose from.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
You are as only good as your next contract.

But is that not heart of competition in any business/industry?

Airlines every day are out fight each others for customers, so why cant they also have flexibility with their own business needs and have companies fighting to earn their business back from airlines in return?

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
It is governed by the Railway Act, which is why that is hasn't been decimated like other unions.

Just by its name, it sound like something from the 1900's, not from the 21st Century.

The world has changed. One side you expect airline to compete in difficult global market against competitors large and small, but at same time you tie one hand behind its back, and say sorry you cant have the flexibility to employ staffing as appropriate.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
losing your job

Sure losing job no fun, but at the end an employee needs to have "value" to the company.

Most airport handling positions are lower skill levels. Maybe value of that position is more closer to $10, not $20 the airline employees member making now?

One thing I realize long time ago, no one is ever underpaid in open market. One received the compensation that society and market place on the service you deliver. Its things like union agreements that distort the valuation of this service.



Anyhow, From what I read it seems the 6 stations mentioned are rather small for United. Its most probably simply not economic to have own staff for such scale. They say they achieve 35% savings by going to service vendor. How can you blame them? If you could save 35% on your business expenses, would you not do the same? (especially when UA airline business is difficult enterprise and have profitability issues).
mercure f-wtcc
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 26):
I can only speak to CVG, but I remember hearing a rumor that they were canning mainline just long enough to kill the mainline ground staff at CVG. There was something in the contract that if no mainline flies to a station for x time, they can dump the mainline handlers and go with an outsourced crew. According to said rumor/theory, they can bring back mainline in some limited capacity and just have it handled by these outsourced staff.

I hope this is true, I'd love seeing mainline UA back at CVG.
 
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KGRB
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 75):

Couldn't a mainline employee make the same mistake? I take plenty of bag claims in ATW because a mainline ramper in ORD put the bag on the wrong flight.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
DGS

I hate the company. its like cancer.

I usually respect your posts, but I really don't like your trashing of DGS. There are many DGS employees that are great at what we do, so don't put us in the same category.
First flight: NW DC-10 MKE-MSP December 1996
Most recent flight: DL/9E CRJ-900 LGA-MSN January 2020
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Having worked extensively in the ground handling world, I can tell you ground handlers can provide better performance than inhouse staff many times.

I disagree with that. There are pluses and minuses on both sides but as far as employee productivity, morale and longevity working for a contractor fares far lower than working directly for the airline.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
brilondon
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 9):
Why does everyone assume it goes to the lowest bidder? Usually it is not the lowest bidder that wins in these things, but there is compromise between CSat, Cost, operational integrity etc. Most stations have 4 bidders with a range of prices and UA has relationships with most major ground handlers in the US so they know what results they can expect from each.

I agree, these are not always the lowest bidder situations. But also when all things are compared, the lowest bidder usually wins out and is competitive when all things are equal.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
It seems that US would be ideal place in world for things like 3rd party airport handling. You have worlds largest service industry base, you have basically the freest labor markets, you have easy barrier of entry for business if you want to form something like a handling company, and you have a huge potential market to service.


  

I agree, I believe the US is indeed and ideal place for such service providers at the airports. Not just for airlines, but for private companies and consortium to run facilities if not an entire airport. We already have a few examples of this.

For whatever reason it has taken a slower time for them to come of age and grow in scale.

One thing I am pretty certain we will also see is companies like Delta and AMR to divest themselves eventually of the handling business also, with these ventures be run by as standalone companies. We've seen this also overseas in many examples were the airlines have dropped such non-core services and sold them off, such as Swissport, SATS, GlobeGround, etc which are no longer tied to their one time airline parents.

As mentioned some of the worlds largest and best reputation airlines contract out handling even at their hub airports quite successfully and no longer need to carry the labor burden on their books.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
m11stephen
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
Most airport handling positions are lower skill levels. Maybe value of that position is more closer to $10, not $20 the airline employees member making now?

  Being a CSA, or ramp agent, is not a skilled position. The only real "skilled" frontline positions in the aviation industry are pilots and mechanics.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 87):
 Being a CSA, or ramp agent, is not a skilled position. The only real "skilled" frontline positions in the aviation industry are pilots and mechanics.

Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
dlramp4life
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
As mentioned some of the worlds largest and best reputation airlines contract out handling even at their hub airports quite successfully and no longer need to carry the labor burden on their books

How efficient would a outsourced hub like ATL,ORD, or DFW work? Look I have backed up outsourced stations here before and I understand what DGS and AE do but there is a limit on how much labor can be done by a third party company. I worked for a third party company in a G4 hub and everyday was a new cluster.

Besides how much are these companies pay employees in Europe? Because in the US the pay is usually not that good. The company I worked for was paying 9 an hour when I started, they lowered it now to 8.50 or 8.75..
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Well if you let market supply/demand determine the pay for many airport positions in the US, I suspect they could likely fall, as they are large pool of people that can and are willing to work such jobs.

The lower the skill and education requirements, the lower the barrier for entry and the larger group of potential workers.

Its defying market realities to ask for $20 in a job that in reality might not be worth more than $10.

Nature might be cruel, but unless an employee brings something of higher value to the table, the proposition of earning relative high wage is simply unrealistic.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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NWAESC
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 22):
DL has there own employees at ALB, IIRC

uh no. Probably DGS.

AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
COSPN
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Yes somehow I doubt Euro Rampers are making $8 per hour.. with no health care
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
How efficient would a outsourced hub like ATL,ORD, or DFW work?

Why should it not work. Its simply scale.

Just like how the carriers to break their hub handling into different teams whether by terminal, concourse, work area etc, the same thing would be done with a handler.

If AA can handle DFW today, a future AA Ground Services, or ACME ground services would follow the same working model.

Its truly not rocket science.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
m11stephen
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Pretty much anyone can do the job... CSA and ramp agents (and F/As for that matter but that's really not relevant to this discussion) are in the same category of workers as retail sales persons, restaurant staff, receptionists, etc.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
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mercure1
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
Besides how much are these companies pay employees in Europe? Because in the US the pay is usually not that good.

Its not that high in Europe either. Its certainly lower than what an airline would pay for self employees.

Also with high social cost in Europe, it benefits airlines not to have much staff. Contracting is a double benefit as it reduce your direct labor cost, but also reduces your social tax obligations in many cases.

Having a vendor relationship is often cleaner. No need to deal with 1000's of employees. Simply a single point of contact with vendor management instead and a bill at the end of the month. If you dont like the service, you put the contract up for bid.

Most European airlines utilize handling agents at outstations these days, and some do so also at their home airports. Also very common in middle east and far east now also carriers to utilize vendors to service their activity.

If things were so bad some claim, this would never have gotten to the size it has. Globes top airlines in customer service openly embrace such working relationships.
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ouboy79
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 90):
Well if you let market supply/demand determine the pay for many airport positions in the US, I suspect they could likely fall, as they are large pool of people that can and are willing to work such jobs.

The lower the skill and education requirements, the lower the barrier for entry and the larger group of potential workers.

Its defying market realities to ask for $20 in a job that in reality might not be worth more than $10.

Nature might be cruel, but unless an employee brings something of higher value to the table, the proposition of earning relative high wage is simply unrealistic.

Many people would be drawn to the job because of benefits. Let's be realistic. The ramp jobs, and even CSAs in the airport, are going to put their bodies through a lot of repetitive work that does lead to OJIs. In order to keep people in those positions you need to pay a fair wage and also mix it with benefits. So how many outsourcing firms provide free flights, a quality low deductible insurance plan, and a wage that would at least cover the most basic living expenses?

Value goes both ways. Yes the employee must bring value to the company, but if the company doesn't bring value to the position it is going to be filled with crap talent that will provide crap performance. I'm not saying $20 is justified, but at some point you can go too low.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 94):
Pretty much anyone can do the job... CSA and ramp agents (and F/As for that matter but that's really not relevant to this discussion) are in the same category of workers as retail sales persons, restaurant staff, receptionists, etc.

Exactly how much experience do you have working an airline ramp or manning the counter? Especially after a diversion event or mass cancellations. Enlighten us.

Honestly the amount of training that goes into knowing the systems and dealing with unique situations on the fly probably make the entry level airline employee a bit more skilled than you typical waiter. When the stuff hits the fan experience and the ability to take care of the customers becomes number one. How well do you think a situation where a few flights cancel is going to be handled with a bunch of low experience outsourced agents?

I'm curious that you would even open the door to link inflight/FAs to the same level as a waiter or receptionist. I am really interested in hearing your direct experiences with the job functions and knowledge requirements of these positions and how you arrived at the conclusions you have.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
I'm not saying $20 is justified, but at some point you can go too low.

The airline compensation scheme has long been "underpaid, but overcompensated" in the sense that your take home pay may be less than market, but your overall comp is generally higher. But now we're getting to the point again where both are above market, at all levels of the company, not just at the airport.

Even before it was "why would I leave my job for a 5-10k raise elsewhere when I used 30k worth of flight bene's last year? Plus 401k matching, plus good healthcare, etc."

[Edited 2013-08-05 15:54:55]
 
azstar
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:09 pm

Union wages are not the cause of most airlines problems. Legacy airlines are bloated, inefficient organizations which require managerial overhaul from top to bottom. However, it's easier to cut costs by simply whacking a few hundred employees at the bottom. It's immediate gratification. According to Forbes Magazine, the most profitable companies are the most efficient and well managed. They generally don't have the lowest labor costs. Southwest Airlines is a good example. IIRC the CEO makes around $400,000, and I guarantee he doesn't have a chauffeur driving him around, or a penthouse apartment paid for by the company. On the other hand, United CEO probably makes a couple million in salary, plus millions in stock options, and perks that cost the company millions. There are probably a few hundred executives that also make millions in salary, plus thousands who make six figure salaries, as well. I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year. Can you say he's worth it? Lee Iacocca, the former CEO of Chrysler once said "I don't mind paying union wages because they're the people buying our cars."

[Edited 2013-08-05 16:10:05]
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year.

I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

-m

  

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