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m11stephen
Posts: 372
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
Exactly how much experience do you have working an airline ramp or manning the counter? Especially after a diversion event or mass cancellations. Enlighten us.

I worked as a CSA for nearly two and a half years... Can it be stressful? Sure, but it's hardly a difficult position.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
crj900lr
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 99):
I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

Exactly, no way your bringing in 6 figures at a small outstation.
 
dc10co
Posts: 141
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:43 am

Having started my career with a regional airline and crossing over to a mainline carrier, I can honestly say that there is a distinct difference in both the quality of the work and the caliber of persons working for each respective work group. Granted, there are good apples and bad apples in every place you work, and there are very many excellent professionals who work for regional carriers. However in general, much like executives, the higher salary and compensation package attracts better talent.

While the position does not require as much skill as it used to, there is still more to the job than just punching buttons and printing boarding passes. Do you really trust Joe Schmoe who got hired 3 weeks ago making $7.25 an hour to handle Dangerous Goods and be responsible for aircraft security? Is he really interested in providing you the best possible customer experience?

I do believe there is a place for mainline employees, but I also believe that there is a lot that we as employees need to do to make ourselves competitive. A lot of agents need to realize that they work for the company, not the other way around and that the company doesn't owe them anything. There has to be an agreement that is both cost effective for the company and beneficial to us front line coworkers.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Thank you!
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
F9Animal
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:43 am

Outsource leadership! Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs. Outsource management! Most are overpaid. Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current managers. Most say these are skilled jobs that deserve the inflated salaries..... However, their performance leads a company into negative cash flow. But, some of you will stroke yourselves here, telling everyone that you are an excellent manager, and a great leader, and that you deserve your salary. In the next sentence, you applaud outsourcing, and agree that a ramper shouldn't earn more than $10 an hour. The next sentence, you belittle unions, and so on. The reason workers in this industry go union is to protect ourselves from idiots who think they are valuable, think they are great, and see us as no value.

Many managers have jumped my outsourcing of management and leadership ideas. Why? If you blame a ramp workgroup as the reason for the companies loss, why not look in the mirror for a minute? What value has your management and leadership brought to the bottom line? Why can't your workgroup be replaced so easily, since your leadership workgroup is not cutting the mustard? Will you flash your Harvard degree at us, and the awards you have nailed into the walls of your office? Come up with why you deserve your job, and how hard you work? Illustrate pictures of yourself climbing the ladder? Pat yourself on the shoulder and tell the soon to be replaced workers that you were a major part of the airlines failure? Why don't you be held accountable for an airlines losses? You are part of the higher ladder, and defined by all as the upper ladder.

I suggest most of the leaders and managers step off the ladder, and accept the truth. The ramper or customer service agent are not the cause of losses. The cause of losses lie directly on those who make those big bucks. I have seen airlines like US Airways turn from losses, to gold, without outsourcing. Leaders like Doug Parker earn their salaries, and lead the company to profits. Leaders like Parker who prefer his stations staffed by his own, and even slipping his workers a sliver of gold when goals are met. Yes, Doug Parker is a good leader, and so are a handful of others. Corporate greed is what has become of the industry.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
commavia
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs.

I'm not pro- or anti- worker or management per se, but this comment is really not realistic.

In the airline industry as in the rest of the economy, it's really easy for the line worker to criticize CEOs and say they're overpaid, underworked, and could be easily replaced. In some cases, that may well be true. But painting with such a broad brush isn't accurate.

That's as laughable as the equally-ridiculous notion that all employees are simply numbers on a spreadsheet that can be easily replaced at will. Both statements are simply detached from reality. Gate agents don't have to stand up in front of a Board of Directors and an annual shareholders meeting and answer for the company's financial performance - they're job is often protected by a union contract and they can't be fired at will if shareholders aren't happy. Ramp workers don't have to sign and certify SEC filings under penalty of incarceration - nobody asks them to attest to the best of their knowledge that hundreds of pages of financial statements and legalese are accurate.

As the saying goes - "if it was so easy, everybody would be doing it."
 
F9Animal
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:20 am

While I agree with you.... There is common argument here. Ramp agents and gate agents do not have to stand in front of investors or sign off SEC documents. They do however have to sign off that the plane they sent out is loaded properly, and counts are accurate. These workers stand in front of the money that comes in, and handle the hardest part of running the airline. Investors and CEOs can't do that, nor would they ever step into a hostile enviornment without their bodyguards. Ground workers would be more than happy to be financially responsible, than be responsible for the integrity of the planes they send out every dag. I know I would rather stand in front of an angry board of directors, than an angry mob of passengers any day. Or, face a mob of very angry family members demanding justice because you miscalculated and placed their families in jeopardy.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
They do however have to sign off that the plane they sent out is loaded properly, and counts are accurate.

Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous. Sorry. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Maverick623
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):

Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper? We need to live and see the present. You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

Yep, let's just let the peons wither and rot.

How disgusting it is to think that people that perform necessary work shouldn't be allowed to make a career out of it, or make a liveable wage just because they don't have a college degree.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
Ramp workers don't have to sign and certify SEC filings under penalty of incarceration - nobody asks them to attest to the best of their knowledge that hundreds of pages of financial statements and legalese are accurate.

And ramp workers aren't asking for a 6 figure salary.

By the way, I do sign and certify documents that, if made in gross error and causes an incident, I could get fined 5 figures for (on top of losing my job)... assuming nobody is injured or killed... in which case I go to jail.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous.

Correct. One could lead to a nightmare of numbers and cause people losing money on what is essentially a gamble, the other could kill hundreds.

It's nice to know the value people place on themselves relative to what basically amounts to legal mumbo-jumbo that helps protect gamblers.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
commavia
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
And ramp workers aren't asking for a 6 figure salary.

So you're suggesting that a CEO with fiduciary responsibility for delivering value to shareholders and keeping a multi-billion-dollar corporation a going concern doesn't justify a six-figure salary? From my perspective, that kind of education, training, experience and responsibility more than warrants that kind of money - particularly at a company as complex as an airline.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
By the way, I do sign and certify documents that, if made in gross error and causes an incident, I could get fined 5 figures for (on top of losing my job)... assuming nobody is injured or killed... in which case I go to jail.

As I said. I was not making the point that CEOs do everything and line workers don't. The point I was making was quite the opposite - that both do meaningful and important work and have critical responsibilities. However, suggestions that one does everything while the other is replaceable is ridiculous - either way.
 
F9Animal
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:19 am

Signing an SEC form carries much less water than signing away on 147 lives. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.  
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 109):
Signing an SEC form carries much less water than signing away on 147 lives. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

Yeah but there are millions of people that can be thought to fill out and sign a load manifest.

A much smaller group to lead a multi-billion dollar corporations.

Its the same in every industry.

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N353SK
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous. Sorry. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

You're absolutely correct. If an executive screws up a 10-K he may wind up fired or in court. If a ramper screws up a bag count, his error could cause fatalities!
 
Maverick623
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:33 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

I am noticing that the excuses constantly change when an argument falls flat on it's face. One person claims that "unskilled" workers don't deserve a liveable wage, and we refute that. Then it becomes a claim that the importance of the work should determine wages. Then when that's refuted, it becomes the personal liability that should determine wages. When that's refuted, it becomes the rarity of a skill that becomes the deciding factor.

The reason we have the SEC, OSHA, unions, and minimum wages is because those at the top have a history of exploiting those at the bottom. So forgive me if I don't really care much for what they say labor is worth... because as we've seen in this thread, when all the BS arguments are deconstructed it comes down to them thinking people who do labor are worthless.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:36 am

To KGRB: First an apology. I sorry if I have offended you or any of your co-workers in any way. I didn't trash DGS. Read comment 76 by Delta1011man.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
I hate the company. its like cancer.

I just added that the cancer is spreading because after all of this, DGS & Eagle will be the two biggest domestic handlers, and if DGS puts out a bid, AE or someone else will undercut you guys and then what happens. I think the regional pilots are starting the results from all of the whipsawing. But there will be someone like the likes of Gojets that will undercut everyone, and that applies the same on the ground, including you and I. We don't need a race to the bottom.

My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
And you don't think its so in Europe for example? Even a bread baker can be a social collective member.

But yet, vendor airport services are thriving.

But in Europe, one can go on strike. And it seems that has happened frequently. Here in the US, we can't. The Railway Act prevents that. POTUS has to approve it as a "last resort".

Quoting brilondon (Reply 85):
I agree, these are not always the lowest bidder situations. But also when all things are compared, the lowest bidder usually wins out and is competitive when all things are equal.

About 98 percent of the time.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 95):
Also with high social cost in Europe, it benefits airlines not to have much staff. Contracting is a double benefit as it reduce your direct labor cost, but also reduces your social tax obligations in many cases.

Having a vendor relationship is often cleaner. No need to deal with 1000's of employees. Simply a single point of contact with vendor management instead and a bill at the end of the month. If you dont like the service, you put the contract up for bid.

The Wal-Marting of the air. That's why I refuse to shop there. Bring all wages downward. And you and I pay for all of the aftermath like health care; food stamps; lack of tax revenue due to sweetheart deals. That's the bottom line. I don't want to get into a rant about them here on this thread.

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year.

They don't get paid a lot for a small station. Neither the supervisors get paid a whole lot for all the stress they deal with. Definitely not 100K.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
Outsource leadership! Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs. Outsource management! Most are overpaid. Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current managers. Most say these are skilled jobs that deserve the inflated salaries..... However, their performance leads a company into negative cash flow. But, some of you will stroke yourselves here, telling everyone that you are an excellent manager, and a great leader, and that you deserve your salary. In the next sentence, you applaud outsourcing, and agree that a ramper shouldn't earn more than $10 an hour. The next sentence, you belittle unions, and so on. The reason workers in this industry go union is to protect ourselves from idiots who think they are valuable, think they are great, and see us as no value.

Thank You for those comments. The nerve of some people who don't want us to make some sort of living.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
I suggest most of the leaders and managers step off the ladder, and accept the truth. The ramper or customer service agent are not the cause of losses. The cause of losses lie directly on those who make those big bucks. I have seen airlines like US Airways turn from losses, to gold, without outsourcing. Leaders like Doug Parker earn their salaries, and lead the company to profits. Leaders like Parker who prefer his stations staffed by his own, and even slipping his workers a sliver of gold when goals are met. Yes, Doug Parker is a good leader, and so are a handful of others. Corporate greed is what has become of the industry.

Don't quite sing Parker's praises yet. He may have learned under Crandall (like Jeff has under Gordon - but he hasn't heeded anything that Bethune has done) but he still has a merger to do. But he wanted to get in front of the labor issue by dealing with AA's unions and getting MOU's. But he hasn't dealt with his own house yet. His own unions have to have deals too. And the US staff will want parity with their AA counterparts, which means pay raises. Let's see what happens first.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):
At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

Too bad we can't fail upward............
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
m11stephen
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:43 am

I really wish vendor/ground handler employees would receive flight benefits from the airline they contract with. DGS gets Delta benefits (As someone stated above) and Eagle gets AA benefits but that's about it. There are probably half a dozen (maybe more) ground handling companies in the US where employees get NO flight benefits. Flight benefits really don't cost the contractee (ie airline) anything and improve employee moral, performance and retention rates at the ground handlers. Once you've had flight benefits it's pretty hard to live without them!  
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
azstar
Posts: 448
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:35 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):
The Wal-Marting of the air. That's why I refuse to shop there. Bring all wages downward. And you and I pay for all of the aftermath like health care; food stamps; lack of tax revenue due to sweetheart deals. That's the bottom line. I don't want to get into a rant about them here on this thread.

I agree. And the owners of Wal-Mart are multi billionaires.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.

I'd have to agree.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 91):
AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...

B/W is DGS. They're actually pretty good, just like RDU.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 97):
Even before it was "why would I leave my job for a 5-10k raise elsewhere when I used 30k worth of flight bene's last year? Plus 401k matching, plus good healthcare, etc."

And "why would I leave my 8hr paying job and only work 4 to an 8hr paying job working 8". I'm sorry but I loved every minute I worked the ramp. There were days when I worked for what seemed like a full shift and I felt it at the end of the day. But then there were many days were I would work 2 or maybe 3 flights. Then there's the downtime between flights. You can't beat it.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):
My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

Let's not forget that UA is allowing this as well. They're paying DGS/AE (thus DL/AA).

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 114):
I really wish vendor/ground handler employees would receive flight benefits from the airline they contract with. DGS gets Delta benefits (As someone stated above) and Eagle gets AA benefits but that's about it. There are probably half a dozen (maybe more) ground handling companies in the US where employees get NO flight benefits. Flight benefits really don't cost the contractee (ie airline) anything and improve employee moral, performance and retention rates at the ground handlers. Once you've had flight benefits it's pretty hard to live without them!

Comes down to the airline itself. DL allocates what's called "vendor passes" to station managers to be given to the contractors. They are essentially buddy passes and have the same priority as regular employee buddy passes given the family and friends.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
On the other hand, United CEO probably makes a couple million in salary, plus millions in stock options, and perks that cost the company millions. There are probably a few hundred executives that also make millions in salary

Jeff's salary is publicly available. He has the highest salary in the company and it's $975k. There are no employees at the company with a 7 figure salary, not sure how many make more than 100k, but it's probably not as many as you think, afterall, the pilot group has many times over the number of millionaires that management does.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
I'm not pro- or anti- worker or management per se, but this comment is really not realistic.

You must be familiar with his posting history right? He's the same guy who rants on about arresting Sean Menke whenever people will listen. Better to smile, nod and go about your business.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

Saying that a ramper and a CEO aren't analogous isn't really "disdain and contempt." Both should be paid what the market will bear. If that's $10,000 for the CEO and $100,000 for the ramper, fine. If it's $10,000 for the ramper and $100,000 for the CEO, fine. My point was simply that it's foolish to compare the "value" of a ramper and a CEO because the jobs are so different. I'm not sure why that bothers people so.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Maverick623
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 118):
Both should be paid what the market will bear. If that's $10,000

This is what I'm talking about.

NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

And just so everyone knows, my comments were based on this crap:

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):

Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

Um... Nobody is making $10k/year in a full time job... If you worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage you'd gross $15,080 a year.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

As determined by your federal elected officials, that lower limit is: 7.25*40*50 = $14,500. Your mileage may vary depending on your state, in Illinois it's 8.25*40*50 = $16,500.
*Assumes you take 2 weeks unpaid vacation.

Do I think that is right? No. But lets not pretend that anyone who gets a UA pay-stub works for minimum wage.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1615
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value?

Over the course of 20 years, that union employee will make more than $22,500 more than someone working for a non-union employee in the same job.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Everyone is fine with paying someone else as little as possible. As long as it isn't them getting the shaft, it's ok.

Quoting commavia (Reply 108):
So you're suggesting that a CEO with fiduciary responsibility for delivering value to shareholders and keeping a multi-billion-dollar corporation a going concern doesn't justify a six-figure salary?

Six figures? Sure. The problem is when they get 7 or 8 figures largely by reducing the pay of the people at the bottom end of the scale.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
The reason we have the SEC, OSHA, unions, and minimum wages is because those at the top have a history of exploiting those at the bottom.

It's only class warfare when the people on the bottom start fighting back.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 118):
Both should be paid what the market will bear.

That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was. The problem is that one group has their thumb on the scale, skewing the numbers.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
Over the course of 20 years, that union employee will make more than $22,500 more than someone working for a non-union employee in the same job.

Proof? At 35 years that amount (much due to compounding interest) is over $55,000. Also, I believe union dues for the IAM are more like $850 for the average UA employee, not 600. At which point at 35 years you'd be out ~81,000.

I used an interest rate of 5% because this way I'm not giving you crazy numbers.

If you use the post-1929 crash average DJIA return on your money, 10.6% that means that a 35 year guy would have "paid" through lost wages and returns, $292,638, assuming an $850 per year due.

At 20 years, that figure is $57,653.

So someone who retires from the ramp at United after a full career will have "paid" the IAM over a quarter million dollars.

[Edited 2013-08-06 14:15:08]
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4337
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 68):
It's a downward spiral at UA. The more they outsource flying to regional carriers and replace experienced customer service personnel with the lowest bidder, the more high fare frequent fliers avoid the airline altogether. The executive geniuses have decided that this is a good business plan.

The company is bullying us into signing the next contact.

Union rep said the company is nothing short of pissed by the failure of the contract this spring/summer. The rep said because of that, they are now looking at outsourcing 45 stations. Sounds like retaliation to me....

I'm still voting no on the next contract if it is a similar piece of toilet paper they handed us earlier this year. I am not signing away on my job. Pay = Fine. Benefits = Fine. OT rules = Fine. Holidays = Fine. Authorizing the company to outsource thousands of jobs = Not fine.

I encourage all my brothers and sisters in the union to also vote no on this next TA, if it has the same or similar provisions for "job protection". Our union is not doing anything about this, but we can still vote it down.
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:11 pm

I agree. If the contract comes back as the same, it will be shot down again. They are retaliating against us because we overwhelmingly voted NO on that last TA. We would have kissed our jobs good-bye since there was no protection in it at all.

So they will go after the smaller stations now. Once gone, the hubs will be next. Thousands of decent paying middle class jobs gone.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14617
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was. The problem is that one group has their thumb on the scale, skewing the numbers.

If UA rampers--or whatever other workgroup--have done a poor job collectively bargaining, they have only themselves and their elected union representatives to blame.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

Surely, you're not suggesting that United Airlines should set the minimum wage, are you? "Minimum wage" could well be the answer to "what is the market rate?" -- but if that is the answer, the minimum wage needs to be set elsewhere.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
silentbob
Posts: 1615
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RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 123):
Proof?

The pay scales at non-union ground handling companies should be all the proof you need. hell, it's the entire point of this topic.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4447
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 am

I think it is time to work to rule. The union should also send a few warning shots at the top brass. I saw the contract offer UA made, and I would not have been amused. I certainly understand the workgroups frustration. Smisek may have iron balls, but the workers have iron bats.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:57 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value? Would you have been better off using that money to pay for your kid (yourself) to go to college?

um yes. United has made it clear what they want. If they didn't have the IAM they would just revisit the Delta plan in the 90s. Farm it all out. Delta saw it fail at a hub and stopped, United's management is clearly stupid enough not to care.
Now, we will have to see if the IAM gets its head out of its ass and gets a good contract. (I generally hate that union so I would be the one going for an In-house)

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
That's my question, regardless of the good/evil debate, do you believe the dues are worth it?

Yes. In almost every work group that is union they have SCOPE. Delta is building that pretty hangar in Mexico, my job could be gone tomorrow. They say they won't, but they said overhauls wouldn't go, Dallas had amazing numbers and tampa was safe now that dallas is gone.
they did all that within a year. Sadly I have to many coworkers who, apparently enjoy getting laid off and keep believe its the old Delta and because Anderson sits at Mr Woolman's desk he cares about his employees like Mr. Woolmen did.


And my problem isn't the company. They are out to make money, its labor's job to protect itself. Delta mainline ramp employees are doing a great job hurting themselves, they constantly allow ex mainline stations to be worked by a Delta company.
But UNION DUES OMGGGG I would be more than happy to go the route of United's mechanics, more money(IIRC its about 250 bucks a month AFTER dues), lower health care and more paid time off. They make more than a Delta mechanic before and after Union dues. (they do however allow way too much outsourcing but that is part of the way they look at things, long and drawn out, way OT....I'd be happy to explain more in a PM if you wish)

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 77):
From what I understand, OO ground employees are getting squeezed and having to take paycuts to match DGS and Eagle. Pretty soon, they will be the two biggest (domestically), and a new "race to the bottom" begins by who can do it the cheapest.

probably. Everytime you see a Delta mainline ramp employee make sure you thank them.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 79):
Then shame on the airlines for not managing their vendors.

happens.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 91):
AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...

I mean below. 9 times out of ten its done outside and by DGS

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
DFW work?

Ask your company. they gladly sent it to DGS when it was a hub. It took the merger to bring it back to mainline. sad

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 93):
Why should it not work. Its simply scale

again, ask Delta. It has been done. They have generally been going the opposite, ATL and CVG are all mainline, as is LAX.
MSP,DTW and LGA (no idea on JFK) are however still infected by DGS
They did however send Dallas to DGS. The plan was for the other three hubs to follow then slowly pick apart the network, kind of like cutting the head of a snake, but backed off. Could have been the fear of a union vote or could have been a complete failure.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):

And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

this.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):

My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

not part of DGS. Trust me, I'm with your brother. I'm pulling for yall but i have little faith in your Union
same for your maintenance side of the house.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

I'm qualified to be a lot higher than I am, but why would I want a job that will end up making me piss on the people below me. Thankfully I was rasied better. I wish more of y'all had parents that were worth a crap.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 116):
B/W is DGS. They're actually pretty good, just like RDU.

smh.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 116):

Let's not forget that UA is allowing this as well. They're paying DGS/AE (thus DL/AA).

Again its the employees and the government faults. We need more APAs and Eastern IAM and NWAMFAs and less ALPA, IAM, TWU and IBTs.
But the government has to let people walk. (but they don't care about the middle class, they have made it painfully clear.)

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 120):
Um... Nobody is making $10k/year in a full time job... If you worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage you'd gross $15,080 a year.

  really?
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3113
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:40 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
How disgusting it is to think that people that perform necessary work shouldn't be allowed to make a career out of it

You can make a career out of it if you really want to, just don't complain about the pay if you choose to remain in a lower-skilled position. If someone working as a cashier at Burger King doesn't want to make their career beyond being a cashier, why should I feel sorry for them when they complain about the crappy pay? That's not disgusting, that's life.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
or make a liveable wage just because they don't have a college degree.

If you don't take the time to invest in yourself (not just a college degree) to make yourself a greater asset to the company, then you're willingly putting yourself in a position of not being able to command a "liveable wage" salary.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
Correct. One could lead to a nightmare of numbers and cause people losing money on what is essentially a gamble, the other could kill hundreds.


...and one can only be done by a limited workforce of educated people and the other could be done by millions and millions.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

I have no contempt for them, only contempt at the idea that I should feel bad that lower-skilled workers receive correspondingly lower pay.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
One person claims that "unskilled" workers don't deserve a liveable wage, and we refute that.

You've done absolutely nothing to refute that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
And just so everyone knows, my comments were based on this crap:

It's not crap, what responsible person with a family to support refuses to better themselves or work to advance themselves to a higher-skilled position and then complains when, surprise surprise, they discover they're unable to support themselves at a lower-skill job?

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was.

Neither have input in the market rate, the market rate is determined by the number of people willing and able to do the job and the demand for the job.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 129):
I'm qualified to be a lot higher than I am, but why would I want a job that will end up making me piss on the people below me. Thankfully I was rasied better. I wish more of y'all had parents that were worth a crap.

Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them  
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:48 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them

don't think I said everyone does. Care to point out that point.

you mad bro?  
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 129):

smh.

So, they can't be good at what they do because they don't have a Delta PPR?
What gets measured gets done.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 124):
Our union is not doing anything about this, but we can still vote it down.
Quoting silentbob (Reply 127):
The pay scales at non-union ground handling companies should be all the proof you need. hell, it's the entire point of this topic.

Exactly, so how many of those stations has the union managed to protect? You pay them your dues, and they sell you out anyway.

Your real argument should be, what are the required qualifications for the job, then what does the average person at those quals make in the US. The difference between the two is the theoretical difference between them. I'd argue though that at this point all the union is trying to do is save its money makers with lots of membership (the hubs) and set the outstations adrift.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 128):
I think it is time to work to rule. The union should also send a few warning shots at the top brass. I saw the contract offer UA made, and I would not have been amused. I certainly understand the workgroups frustration. Smisek may have iron balls, but the workers have iron bats.

??? The union approved the TA same as management. Who do you think the real enemy is? Union brass make up half of the opposing force.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4447
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:32 pm

RDH3E, the top brass of the union can make suggestions until they are blue in the face. However, the members have the ultimate say. A union is only as strong as its membership. In this case, the membership carries the iron bats. UA leadership has pushed its workers hard.

This industry has unions, because the top brass of the airlines give its workers no choice. I fully support the workers of UA, and hope they get an offer worth accepting. Otherwise, Smisek may be facing a big showdown.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:36 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Investors and CEOs can't do that, nor would they ever step into a hostile enviornment without their bodyguards. Ground workers would be more than happy to be financially responsible, than be responsible for the integrity of the planes they send out every dag. I know I would rather stand in front of an angry board of directors, than an angry mob of passengers any day. Or, face a mob of very angry family members demanding justice because you miscalculated and placed their families in jeopardy.

I don't see how the screwing up of putting luggage on an aircraft and not being able to give weight figures with those bags that are weighed at the counter is the same as making the decisions that keep you employed. I could see how you think that you could be a CEO, but you by your posts have alot to learn about running a multi billion dollar airline. I am not saying that you are not bright but it is evident by what you say that you have not the education to run the airline and to make the decisions necessary to run the company. The baggage guy rarely if ever is the one answering questions after an accident. I have never seen that.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:40 am

If we're going to get outsourced anyway, what does it matter if we keep voting it down. If we signed the last one, we'd be outsourced right now.

The company cannot wait to outsource, they are literally salivating at the mouth to outsource. (While we are still profitable and have yet to realize full merger synergies and cost efficiencies)

So for us in the outstations:

Option 1) Sign the contract that encouraged outsourcing

Option 2) Keep rejecting contracts and get outsourced

I rather go down swinging and I encourage my fellow union brothers and sisters to continue voting down these short-sighted contracts that gut the airline of it's own employees while padding the pockets of investors and upper management. At least we can say we tried to fight for our jobs.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 135):
I don't see how the screwing up of putting luggage on an aircraft and not being able to give weight figures with those bags that are weighed at the counter is the same as making the decisions that keep you employed.

If you think the weight manifest comes from the ticket counter you are sorely mistaken. All cargo weight must be visually kept track of and verified (i.e. counting every bag in your head). Scanners are not used for W&B, only for tracking info. It is actually a pretty stressful job, keeping track of hundreds of bags and making sure they are accounted for in the correct cargo pit (and loaded properly to ensure the downline station can offload the bags in the correct order to get connecting bags to their connecting flight).

You also sign your name and accept personal responsibility for the weights you gave central load planning or the captain. So there is a little bit of responsibility with this job, despite what your assumptions are.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3113
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 131):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them

don't think I said everyone does. Care to point out that point.

Well that came off as what you were implying to me.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 131):

you mad bro?

I was until you said that and made me LOL  
 
COSPN
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:56 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 99):
I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

-m

I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) . That is fine if they show improvement of the station, but it is a waste of lots of money, if they run it the same"old" way as with out making things better.. time will tell, the 100K plus should attract some managers that can make improvements, and save the company money.. also many agents would never want to move up to manager positions because the pay was the same of less, and Zero job security, so many managers ans sups were hired "off the street" with no airline expertise..
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less

The cost-of-living-adjustment for Chicago vs Houston was somewhere around 25%. However, I would urge you to consider that the cost of paying people more because of chicago v houston is largely offset by the tax breaks the company gained by moving into chicago, so it's not quite the whole story to look at the top line figure, but you are correct, salaries are higher for "ex-cons" than they were before.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
100K plus should attract some managers that can make improvements

The average MBA grad with ZERO management experience coming from a top-10 school will make around 110-120k in the open market. UA pay can range from below market, to lower middle of the range. And that is not even for a manager, many people on the frontline don't understand the kind of pay that a good experienced manager can command. At other companies, a UA employee that makes 130k would make nearly 200k, and lots of UA folks have taken that trade over the years.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3986
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):
I understand the MIA and maybe SFO have a different starting scale. sCO used to have it (for years 1 thru 4) but met in the middle years and everybody topped out the same rate. Is this rate for DGS or DL Ready Reserve?

Swissport and Eulen America, as they hold contracts with Miami-Dade County. DL Ready Reserve is $11.07 at MIA and $11.02 at FLL, and Swissport market rate is about $9.50 at FLL.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

   Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.
 
azstar
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 141):
Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.



I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period. I fly from a location with both UA personnel, and contract personnel working together at checkin. I can tell them apart because they have different uniforms.

First situation. Originating flight was cancelled. Contract employee says "the computer has rebooked you" and proceeds to tell me I'm booked on a flight departing in 5 hours, with 3 connections, arriving at my U.S. destination the following morning. When I ask if there isn't something better, the response is "that's what the computer has you booked on". I persist and am met with a blank stare. The UA agent next to him says "come on over here", to which the vendor happily obliges. UA puts me on US Airways and in 5 minutes I'm off to check in with US Airways, arriving at my destination about an hour later than original.

Second situation. My origination flight is several hours late. The vendor hands me boarding passes for the original flights (which is definitely going to misconnect) and says nothing else. When I say "I'm not going to make my connection he says "they'll rebook you at the gate". The UA employee (in the process of checking someone else in) says "don't send him to the gate to be rebooked, do it now". The contract agent stands there for a minute, and says "see him."

There are UA employees who aren't so great, and vendor employees who are not so great, but, in my experience, the UA employees have more invested in the company and most will try to satisfy their passengers more than the vendor agents will.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 142):
I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period. I fly from a location with both UA personnel, and contract personnel working together at checkin.

Is it PIT, ROC, TPA or YVR? Those are the only 4 possibilities right now.
 
azstar
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 143):
Is it PIT, ROC, TPA or YVR? Those are the only 4 possibilities right now.

None of the above. I don't want to say where because I'm not intentionally trying to make anyone look bad.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 144):
None of the above. I don't want to say where because I'm not intentionally trying to make anyone look bad.

EGE perhaps? Sorry, I just have to pry it out of you. EGE is the only other place in the system that ML and Express employees work side/side. SAN has both, but they are separate lobby areas.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 145):
ML and Express employees work side/side. SAN has both, but they are separate lobby areas.

Didn't say ML and Express employees, was ML and 3rd party/vendor/outsource workers.
But then again, there is no such person as a United Express employee.....
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 146):

Didn't say ML and Express employees, was ML and 3rd party/vendor/outsource workers.
But then again, there is no such person as a United Express employee.....

Of course you know I'm referring to a vendor working UA/UAX flights. Let's not be pedantic here.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3113
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 141):
Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.

If that were to truly be the result, then UA would no doubt reverse course at the shareholders behest no less. I don't believe all contracted employees should be making the bare minimum, in my own opinion and observation there's definitely something to be said for the positive financial benefits of good morale and employees feeling strong internal and external equity.

I used to work as a station agent for American Eagle for $9.00/hour and, while the job could be stressful at times, there honestly was not a whole lot of skill involved in the work unless you moved up as one of the managers or supervisors. In my opinion, the contractor pay should be based on the size of the operation or schedule as, the larger the schedule, the greater the work load and complexity of the job. Otherwise, $9.00/hour for working 1-2 dailies in Williston, North Dakota is completely fair.

Quoting azstar (Reply 142):

I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period.

I don't think anyone is arguing that skill gaps between the two groups don't exist, but that's more a problem with UA quality assurance.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:37 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 148):
If that were to truly be the result, then UA would no doubt reverse course at the shareholders behest no less. I don't believe all contracted employees should be making the bare minimum, in my own opinion and observation there's definitely something to be said for the positive financial benefits of good morale and employees feeling strong internal and external equity.

But this is the issue. The ground handling business is now like the regional airline business a while back when the whipsawing began. There are so many operators out there (all headed up by former airline executives), that there must be a lot of money involved. Just like the RJ craze a decade ago, some companies got smart and saw that they could have their own operation so that they could service their smaller stations, and other airlines who needed handling work too. So you have a separate workforce working on a "C" scale. Saves money by having a mainline force and a contracted force. Now you have all the other local and international players involved, it seems like a mess of companies for all of the work. Now with very thin profit margins (the airlines set the rate/price for the service they want provided), these companies can't really pay anyone a decent wage. So "churn" is built into the business model. Just like the RJ pilots who are whipsawed, the people on the ground are getting whipsawed as well. But some of them (pilots) are finally waking up to all of this madness by consolidations. But of course there will be one or two operators who will jump at the chance to fly for poverty wages. So you have all of these companies like ASIG; Worldwide; G2; GAT; Menzies; Swissport all vying for the work. The larger companies who have the scale and mass can survive, but the smaller ones will probably merge or be bought out. Still not good for the employees. The problem is that the airlines call the shots on price and it is very hard to make money, because you as a "service provider" can't set the price for the service. And the quality of the work varies from vendor to vendor. So it is bad for the worker period. That's why it is a "race to the bottom".

I remember a bunch of years ago when we were hiring, people from the contractors on the ramp asked if we were hiring. So many of these people got easily hired (along with people from Chelsea), because they obviously had experience; passed background; and SIDA badges. And they are still with us today. They were very grateful to be hired, because of the low wages they were paid, and no benefits. Definitely a step up.

Bottom line is that the price of flying will definitely go up. It has to because from the air, to the ground, you will eventually have to pay more for labor. It will be an unsustainable model, if you don't.

[Edited 2013-08-08 16:47:57]
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!

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