Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
skyguyB727
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:45 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 41):
The airline portion will be dead. But the ground handling division will expand. And as of now they are still under the AMR umbrella. I don't know what the new merged corp. name will be, but they won't give it up if it is profitable.

Back in the mid to late 1990s, AMR had a ground handling division called AMR Services. Their sole purpose was to provide outsourcing services to other airlines.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:12 am

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 150):
Back in the mid to late 1990s, AMR had a ground handling division called AMR Services. Their sole purpose was to provide outsourcing services to other airlines.

And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 151):

And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.

I would have said the same thinga year ago but hinesight is always 20/20. I would have never guessed th DL would dissolve Regional Elite (basically folded into DGS), oust Comair, shutter Pinnacle only to save them in BK, buy them out and rename them.

I can see AA holding onto Eagle..for now (at least the ground portion).
What gets measured gets done.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 151):
And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.

Eagle is a decent regional/ground handler to work for. From what I've heard pay starts out at $9 something an hour and tops out at $15 an hour. That is good pay for the skills and abilities required to work as a CSA/ramp agent.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 148):
I used to work as a station agent for American Eagle for $9.00/hour and, while the job could be stressful at times, there honestly was not a whole lot of skill involved in the work unless you moved up as one of the managers or supervisors. In my opinion, the contractor pay should be based on the size of the operation or schedule as, the larger the schedule, the greater the work load and complexity of the job. Otherwise, $9.00/hour for working 1-2 dailies in Williston, North Dakota is completely fair.

  It's not a difficult job. People need to stop trying to make it into something its not.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) .

$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous. No wonder labor costs are so high. $15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous. No wonder labor costs are so high. $15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.

Read his post,

Quoting COSPN (Reply 153):
the old s/CO managers pay scales


Operative word MANAGERS
 
OB1504
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
Eagle is a decent regional/ground handler to work for. From what I've heard pay starts out at $9 something an hour and tops out at $15 an hour. That is good pay for the skills and abilities required to work as a CSA/ramp agent.

   NK has a similar pay rate for their CSAs, as does AA for their phone agents.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:02 pm

And I forgot about the varia

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) .

$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous.

Not really. The operative words are "for a top scale (A-scale) agent" working "lots of overtime" which can happen during the summer and the holidays. Those are periods where there is plenty of overtime to get if you want it. Some people "live" (for a better term of the word) at the airport picking up hours when we are shorthanded and OT is plentiful. Some people give up hours as well. Works for all parties involved. The company is happy and the agents are happy.

Not everyone working up and downstairs are topped out. Many people are on the "B" scale and getting plenty of overtime as well. That's one of the good things about the job, as well as the flexibility to make your own schedule if you are creative. So everyone is not making 75K.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
$15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.

Maybe in some areas of the country, but in the major cities, it is not.

As I said in my previous post #149, rates / wages will definitely go up. All of these smaller handling companies will be consolidated and the biggest will survive, (note: I'm singling out DGS and AE because they are wholly owned by their respective airlines) and they will have to get a fair rate from the airline, and they won't get whipsawed. The airline can only lowball them so much. Especially once the economy gets better. The costs of flying will as well.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 156):
As I said in my previous post #149, rates / wages will definitely go up. All of these smaller handling companies will be consolidated and the biggest will survive, (note: I'm singling out DGS and AE because they are wholly owned by their respective airlines) and they will have to get a fair rate from the airline, and they won't get whipsawed. The airline can only lowball them so much. Especially once the economy gets better. The costs of flying will as well.

Wages will not go up and there will be no reason to... There will ALWAYS be people who want to work around the airport and be around airplanes and the vast majority of people (Those with a h.s. diploma and no criminal record) are qualified for the position.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 156):
Maybe in some areas of the country, but in the major cities, it is not.

Once again, this is NOT a career. If you want to spend your whole life in the CSA/ramp agent position that's your choice but don't expect to live comfortably. It's an entry-level position. It's more suited for students, retirees, and people whose spouses have a great job and don't need the money.

These ground handlers are probably the way of the future. WN recently announced that it was going to start outsourcing, UA looks interested in outsourcing more stations and AA recently outsourced many CS positions as well. It's just not economical to have agents making $22-25 an hour when there is someone out there willing to do the job for $9 an hour.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:03 pm

Why stop at outsourcing these type of jobs? How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr. I say everything under the sun should be done by third party vendors. That way more people would be apt at more varying jobs due to needing three jobs to obtain a good living.
I am obviously being sarcastic here, but i don't see why so many are on the 'why not outsource' bandwagon.

[Edited 2013-08-09 13:05:39]
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:06 pm

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 158):
Why stop at outsourcing these type of jobs? How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr.

Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:18 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 159):
Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.

That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 160):
That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.

They do this "sort of" with those robot surgeries.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 159):
Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.

  

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 160):
That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.

The side effects of outsourced airline ground crews are far, far less than that of outsourced medical professionals.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 158):
How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr. I say everything under the sun should be done by third party vendors. That way more people would be apt at more varying jobs due to needing three jobs to obtain a good living.
I am obviously being sarcastic here, but i don't see why so many are on the 'why not outsource' bandwagon.

Already happening to an extent in the medical field... Ever had an X-ray read by someone in India?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
skyguyB727
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:45 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
Honestly the amount of training that goes into knowing the systems and dealing with unique situations on the fly probably make the entry level airline employee a bit more skilled than you typical waiter. When the stuff hits the fan experience and the ability to take care of the customers becomes number one. How well do you think a situation where a few flights cancel is going to be handled with a bunch of low experience outsourced agents?

The job also includes security issues, proper dangerous goods handling, knowledge of ticketing and fare calculations, knowledge of meteorology, and a general interest/knowledge of aviation. It takes a lot more skill than scanning barcodes at the supermarket. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully uninformed.
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:01 pm

I am under the impression airlines don't pay well no matter the position. I interviewed with F9 for a position and they offered me $42k. Got offered a job with Rolls-Royce for $90k and a far better benefits package. Both jobs had nearly the same education and experience requirements. Airlines will have trouble competing with other companies for technical talent if they are offering far less in compensation than non-airline companies.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 164):
The job also includes security issues, proper dangerous goods handling, knowledge of ticketing and fare calculations, knowledge of meteorology, and a general interest/knowledge of aviation. It takes a lot more skill than scanning barcodes at the supermarket. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully uninformed.

There may be a fare amount of material to learn but it's hardly difficult to learn. You are spoon fed everything in training. You can become fully trained as a CSA/ramp agent in three weeks. I worked with a few people who were 18 years old and literally right out of high school.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:14 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 166):
There may be a fare amount of material to learn but it's hardly difficult to learn. You are spoon fed everything in training. You can become fully trained as a CSA/ramp agent in three weeks. I worked with a few people who were 18 years old and literally right out of high school.

That's where the "pencil-whipping" comes in. But sooner or later it will catch up you, and you can get seriously hurt out there. Practical OJT, and constant training of procedures and standards keep you safe out there.

What I don't understand is why some people on this board begrudge us for what we do and get paid? Now I don't understand the animosity. That's one of the problems with this country. Please don't tell me I make too much money. When I got hired, I knew what the market would bear and weighed everything before I took the job. And my pay went up and down and up. Of course the bean counters and execs say we make too much. They want more money for them. There are still other workgroups who don't have JCBA's yet. Why is that. We may be the biggest group in number, but not the costilest. We earn our money every day. We all lived thru the BK's and the bad management. We sacrificed and took cuts and furloughs. We did what we were asked to do.


Quoting m11stephen (Reply 157):
Wages will not go up and there will be no reason to... There will ALWAYS be people who want to work around the airport and be around airplanes and the vast majority of people (Those with a h.s. diploma and no criminal record) are qualified for the position.

Yes it will when the economy gets better. How in the hell are these companies going to make money and a profit? And get the employees to work for them? As I said, the airlines set the rate and price, not the companies. And airfares WILL GO UP. Not down. Even the regional pilots are waking up from their "Shiny Jet Syndrome" and finally dealing with the issue of "whipsawing". That's why the airline division of American Eagle is about to die. They refused that bad deal, and they are about to be gone. But of course someone else will took a bad deal (Pinnacle). Sure, people may want to work around planes and it's exciting at first for some, but why is turnover built in? After a couple of months, they want to quit. I've seen it happen. Especially in the winter time. There's more money to be made at an airport shop than freezing your butt out there on a cold ramp, or having a bunch of screaming passengers at you during IRROPS.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 111):
You're absolutely correct. If an executive screws up a 10-K he may wind up fired or in court. If a ramper screws up a bag count, his error could cause fatalities!

I would think that the ramp agent miscounting the number of bags unless they really can't count won't bring a plane down. They may be stupid but not that stupid. I have never heard of a plane being brought down by an inaccurate bag count.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:57 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 167):
Yes it will when the economy gets better. How in the hell are these companies going to make money and a profit? And get the employees to work for them? As I said, the airlines set the rate and price, not the companies. And airfares WILL GO UP. Not down. Even the regional pilots are waking up from their "Shiny Jet Syndrome" and finally dealing with the issue of "whipsawing". That's why the airline division of American Eagle is about to die. They refused that bad deal, and they are about to be gone. But of course someone else will took a bad deal (Pinnacle). Sure, people may want to work around planes and it's exciting at first for some, but why is turnover built in? After a couple of months, they want to quit. I've seen it happen. Especially in the winter time. There's more money to be made at an airport shop than freezing your butt out there on a cold ramp, or having a bunch of screaming passengers at you during IRROPS.

Comparing airline ground crews to airline pilots is apples and oranges. It takes year to become a pilot, it takes week(s) to become an agent. There will *ALWAYS* be people who want to work at the airport, always. That is never going to change. I've never heard of an airline not being able to fill an open customer service, ramp or for that matter flight attendant position. There is and will be a shortage of pilots. Their is an incentive for airlines to retain pilots because if a pilot quits they aren't always going to be able to fill that position. If an agent quits there are twenty people kicking down the door to take that position.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 167):
What I don't understand is why some people on this board begrudge us for what we do and get paid? Now I don't understand the animosity. That's one of the problems with this country. Please don't tell me I make too much money. When I got hired, I knew what the market would bear and weighed everything before I took the job. And my pay went up and down and up. Of course the bean counters and execs say we make too much. They want more money for them. There are still other workgroups who don't have JCBA's yet. Why is that. We may be the biggest group in number, but not the costilest. We earn our money every day. We all lived thru the BK's and the bad management. We sacrificed and took cuts and furloughs. We did what we were asked to do.

The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:21 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 138):

I was until you said that and made me LOL

you
are
welcome
 
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 132):

well few things
1) for whatever horse crap stupid reason they(DGS) do have a PPR. (I don't know if they have a 6-digit Delta Employee number though)
2) Let me ask you, had you been working the ramp for Delta and they came to you and said no more health care, no more paid time off, less take of pay and no 401K.....exactly how good of a job would you have done? Don't even feed me the line of crap about it being understandable or any of that junk.
3) again, thanks for being part of the problem. I on the other hand hope you don't end up getting Mexicoed or DGSed

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):

The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

Really? Delta probably does more work in house than any airline now and pays its AMTs the highest

and just made nearly 1 billion in a quarter. They saved an amazing 250M OVER FIVE YEARS! to send the HMV(or D-checks) out of house and close two bases. So what you're telling me is that if that work was done in house it would take 2 billion in profit away for 50 million bucks?

And if cost were so high why do we do work for other airlines? Ask LAN chile, they have been more than happy to send their 767s to ATL for heavy checks.

they don't do work in house because, for whatever reason, they listen to people like yourself. Doing work in house isn't cool. No matter how much it cost.


and finally, how is it that its the union fault? Delta isn't union........
 
COSPN
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:38 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
I've never heard of an airline not being able to fill an open customer service, ramp or for that matter flight attendant position

And that, my friend, is the operative word: major AIRLINE. Not contract company.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

DL is non union. And we (sCO) was non union until 2011. And that is the "market rate" for all of the airlines. So don't blame the unions. DL (and AA) can outsource and have a group of employees on a "C" scale, because they OWN their handling company. DL will have the second highest rate after WN. WN has the highest pay for all of their positions. Now there barking about labor, but I'll bet one thing; they won't try and screw over their employees. And they haven't been in BK either. When AA and US merges, US people's pay will go up to meet parity with AA's people (and AA is going thru BK with 5 billion in the bank)

Quoting COSPN (Reply 171):
How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..

And that is only after a 10 year top-out.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

So back in 1998 I had applied, and interviewed with AA to do ground. They were offering something like $9.25 starting if I remember right. So removing the blaming unions thing, if we just look at inflation, I would need to make $13.25/hr today to have the same purchasing power I did back then. What is the rationale to to expect people to not ask for higher pay for starting positions when the cost of everything else has gone up? Gas back then was just under a $1 per gallon, today well over $3...which of course impacts everything else. I'm just not seeing the common sense anymore if expecting people to be able to start off at the wage level they did 15 years ago. You can only expect people to do grunt work at low wages for so long, especially considering the impacts it will have on their body.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 172):
WN has the highest pay for all of their positions. Now there barking about labor, but I'll bet one thing; they won't try and screw over their employees. And they haven't been in BK either. When AA and US merges, US people's pay will go up to meet parity with AA's people (and AA is going thru BK with 5 billion in the bank)

Most of what I've seen publically posted on the union pages for WN is that the cost adjustments are likely going to come in work rules, overtime, job classifications, etc...not so much outsourcing or pay cuts. Granted some smaller stations are eligible to be outsourced, but I want to say that is just underwing or at the very least there will be a WN employee (or two) on site to ensure it isn't fully left in the hands of a 3rd party.
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:25 pm

I wonder what types of people they will get at such low pay ? How reliable will these people be ? Will they flip out when IROPS come about ? I was talking to the lady @ Subway and she was telling me how hard it is to get people to show up on a daily basis . Some do not even call in ,just don't show . I'm sure Subway's wages are not far off from what UA is offering,plus the stress of dealing with people as a CRS and loading/unloading bags.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 171):
How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..

Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

.....as baseless as it is.
So who tapped you to classify it as such? Just because you don't need to waste time and $$ to get a seemingly useless degree at an overpriced university?
However, I do know many a lowly ramp agent that have degrees in varying fields, so they are all not uneducated dolts.
One question though: What do you care anyway if someone feels or would want to do this indefinitely?
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 176):
However, I do know many a lowly ramp agent that have degrees in varying fields, so they are all not uneducated dolts.
One question though: What do you care anyway if someone feels or would want to do this indefinitely?

There are McDonalds cashiers (not that there is anything wrong with working there) who have bachelor's degrees... It is not necessary or required for the ramp agent position. I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 177):
There are McDonalds cashiers (not that there is anything wrong with working there) who have bachelor's degrees... It is not necessary or required for the ramp agent position. I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.

Yet you continue to ignore that a ramp agent is going to have more impacts to them physically than a person as Mickey D's. Certain jobs with risks come with additional benefits. Being exposed to the elements and having to lift several thousand pounds of bags every day can take a toll on the body. Shouldn't that be rewarded with a little bit higher pay over someone putting together my McDouble?
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:11 pm

Well perhaps the UPS/FedEx driver position is a good area to try to vendor out. I mean anyone can drive and drop off packages I think. I bet this would save a lot of $$ for those companies.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 168):
I have never heard of a plane being brought down by an inaccurate bag count.

Air Midwest 5481. Had the plane not been overloaded, it likely would have been recoverable.

I would also point to the Alaska Airlines flight that had an explosive decompression because a ramp agent hit the fuselage with a belt loader and didn't report it.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 177):
I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.

I would love to hear your views on what constitutes a "non-entry level position", why, and just how many of those jobs are available... and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

I would also like to hear on what you think of outsourcing aircraft maintenance. Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four? What about outsourced regional pilots? Don't they deserve to have a liveable wage and be able to support a family?

And comparing a McDonald's cashier to a CSA or ramper proves that you haven't worked as any of them. There is simply no comparison.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
beachbum1970
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:24 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would also point to the Alaska Airlines flight that had an explosive decompression because a ramp agent hit the fuselage with a belt loader and didn't report it.

I believe this incident happened AFTER the Alaska Airlines ramp was contracted out to Menzies.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:37 pm

Yes. You are correct. Alaska Airlnes Flight 536. It happened right after Menzies took over the ramp.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 170):
2) Let me ask you, had you been working the ramp for Delta and they came to you and said no more health care, no more paid time off, less take of pay and no 401K.....exactly how good of a job would you have done? Don't even feed me the line of crap about it being understandable or any of that junk.

Sounds like a ready reserve.....
 
crj900lr
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
Air Midwest 5481. Had the plane not been overloaded, it likely would have been recoverable.

Possibly, but it was a combination of improper loading and counting of bags and bad contract maintenance on the horizontal stabilizer.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

Once again, anyone is absolutely free to make a career being a bag loader for US Airways Express, just don't complain when you have a sudden epiphany that that $9.00/hour position isn't going to cover your bills if you have a family. Entry-level positions are lower-skilled, bottom-end of the company positions, they're not meant to be "career-making" positions, they exist to do a basic job which demands a lower skill set. Those with talent rise up in the company, those who can't hack it quit and move on.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four?

It's not an arbitrary question of "should they". How many other workers are out there with the same skill set? How much are they willing to work for? 30-35 years ago most could lead a comfortable middle class life with just a high school diploma...heck you could still do alright even without that. Times change however, many more people have high school diplomas that it's now common place and college degrees are now the new standard. Bottom line, I repeat, if you want a "liveable wage", you need to develop a skill set and personal value proposition for the company that sets you above entry-level status.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:06 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 185):
Those with talent rise up in the company, those who can't hack it quit and move on.

LOL if only that were true.   Majority of the time its politics. My last company I was tapped to go from supervisor up to operations manager. There were significant issues in the business though that I had said needed addressing (hence one reason for the promotion) but it would only happen if I agreed to replaced my existing boss who would have been fired if I accepted (the regional VP and them didn't get along being the VP was an idiot to put it nicely). I gave notice and told them to have fun. They've gone through about 5 people so far at the OM position since I left 2 years ago.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 185):
It's not an arbitrary question of "should they". How many other workers are out there with the same skill set? How much are they willing to work for? 30-35 years ago most could lead a comfortable middle class life with just a high school diploma...heck you could still do alright even without that. Times change however, many more people have high school diplomas that it's now common place and college degrees are now the new standard. Bottom line, I repeat, if you want a "liveable wage", you need to develop a skill set and personal value proposition for the company that sets you above entry-level status.

People continue to ignore one major component of ramp folks, and somewhat to the same extent the counter CSRs. The job includes a fair amount of labor with lifting bags. This eventually leads to physical issues and perhaps OJIs. This raises the risk a bit compared to other entry level positions at an airline. IMO, someone on the ramp should have a higher wage than someone who is solely inside at the counter or in a res center taking calls. Yes it is still entry level, but it is a higher risk position that will cause physical impacts to that person. This is why you can find workers in distribution centers for Walmart, Costco, etc making $20/hr. The physical labor and the operation of the machinery (tugs and such on ramp, forklifts in the warehouses).

Today I agree that you need some college education, if you don't have the work experience already built up, to get ahead of basic front line work. Is a bachelors degree the new standard? No. We aren't to that point yet. We are past the point though we just a HS degree can get you a good job. Of course in my days of hiring folks, I'm taking the person with 5-10 years experience over some fresh new college grad with zero experience.
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:18 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would also like to hear on what you think of outsourcing aircraft maintenance. Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four? What about outsourced regional pilots? Don't they deserve to have a liveable wage and be able to support a family?

I am unfamiliar with what it takes to become an aircraft mechanics but I'm pretty sure (Correct me if I'm wrong) it takes more than three weeks of training to become one... I've never worked in maintenance so I'm not one to judge that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would love to hear your views on what constitutes a "non-entry level position", why, and just how many of those jobs are available... and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

If you'd like to google "SVP ranges" you'll be able to see categories and what constitutes a unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled position. Also, if you'd like to Google "Entry-level position" you'll get a definition and see that being a CSA/ramp agent fits the description perfectly.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
And comparing a McDonald's cashier to a CSA or ramper proves that you haven't worked as any of them. There is simply no comparison.

Once again I worked as a CSA for nearly two and a half years. I have worked a variety of jobs during my life (food service, retail, etc.) and being a CSA was by far the easiest job with the best benefits.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
I am unfamiliar with what it takes to become an aircraft mechanics but I'm pretty sure (Correct me if I'm wrong) it takes more than three weeks of training to become one... I've never worked in maintenance so I'm not one to judge that.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
If you'd like to google "SVP ranges" you'll be able to see categories and what constitutes a unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled position. Also, if you'd like to Google "Entry-level position" you'll get a definition and see that being a CSA/ramp agent fits the description perfectly.

I Googled both and found an unsourced Wikipedia article on "Entry-level position" (the rest were job listings), and SVP referrs to how much training is required to acquire average performance in a specific job function, not whether something is "entry level" or not.

BTW, aircraft mechanics and pilots are considered "skilled" jobs according to your links... and yet we continually see their outsourcing.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
being a CSA was by far the easiest job with the best benefits.

Ah, so now the standard is a subjective measure of "easiness", relative to the subjective worth of the benefits.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:45 am

Question:
If all these entry level ramp/csa jobs were to be outsourced everywhere, what would replace them as the entry level job at airlines? Secretary at the HQ?
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:27 am

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 190):
If all these entry level ramp/csa jobs were to be outsourced everywhere, what would replace them as the entry level job at airlines? Secretary at the HQ?

Administrative positions, IT, marketing...I'm sure there is plenty of "overpaid" positions that can be outsourced.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 188):
Ah, so now the standard is a subjective measure of "easiness", relative to the subjective worth of the benefits.

I was a bit shocked by the comment that a ramper was the easiest job. I guess it depends on where you are and how many flights. I would imagine a ramper in Arizona or Texas in the Summer, Chicago and New York in the Winter...would all probably disagree.   The CSA side inside is definitely not easy once a flight cancels and you have 100 people screaming and yelling. Sure you can train the basics in a few weeks, but it is going to take much to develop the skills to handle complex and unique situations. People seem to lose perspective when they move away from the front lines into the cubicle jungle.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 191):

I was a bit shocked by the comment that a ramper was the easiest job.

He was referring to being a CSA as the easiest job he's ever had.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 191):
The CSA side inside is definitely not easy once a flight cancels and you have 100 people screaming and yelling. Sure you can train the basics in a few weeks, but it is going to take much to develop the skills to handle complex and unique situations.

Not to mention the computer skills needed.

I just find it pathetic that people would actually want others to be poor, as some sort of punishment for not moving up the corporate ladder.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 192):

I just find it pathetic that people would actually want others to be poor, as some sort of punishment for not moving up the corporate ladder.

I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 186):

LOL if only that were true.

It's very true, there is management in airlines throughout the industry that have started off as rampers, CSA's or flight attendants for example. I should have also qualified that people working in these types of lower-skilled entry-level jobs can also leave and move up in other companies/industries in good part because of the work history and established work ethic they built up at the entry-level.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 186):
The job includes a fair amount of labor with lifting bags. This eventually leads to physical issues and perhaps OJIs. This raises the risk a bit compared to other entry level positions at an airline.

It isn't a major component at all. Again, just because it can be labor intensive (and believe me, from experience I know it can be) does not equate to increased skills, even throwing an agility test at candidates, the number of people willing and able to do the job is still quite large. Mining and working in rock quarries have always been extremely labor intensive and dangerous yet still comparatively lower-paying. However, when you have a shortage of people willing to do the work, your starting price goes up as were seeing with a lot of these oil and gas jobs in North Dakota.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 194):
I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?

I've been wondering this. When the government sets the minimum wage, why do they not have an inflation measure baked in? Seems silly not to.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 193):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?

It's up to the airline really, but I don't think it should be federally or union mandated as, if the price of the job remains the same over time (i.e. the supply and demand for that labor force doesn't shift), then the wages naturally would keep up with inflation. If not then the supply or demand for the work must have changed.

My position is basically that airlines should be free to pay what they see the position as worth to them. On the other hand, as I said previously, I do believe that the financial benefits from a happy, efficient work force aren't something to be ignored and that airlines who only seek out bottom-of-the-barrel workers will be naturally punished via lower-productivity, high turnover and souring customer satisfaction resultant from an unhappy work force.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 195):

My position is basically that airlines should be free to pay what they see the position as worth to them. On the other hand, as I said previously, I do believe that the financial benefits from a happy, efficient work force aren't something to be ignored and that airlines who only seek out bottom-of-the-barrel workers will be naturally punished via lower-productivity, high turnover and souring customer satisfaction resultant from an unhappy work force.

There are 4 "major" airlines that will be left: AA, UA, DL, and WN. The first three are heavily outsourced to minimum wage workers, and fly to many places that WN doesn't.

The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition. There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14628
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition. There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).

If there is no real competition, why do airlines who fly the same route see different--sometimes radically different--average yield? Customer service almost has to be part of that answer. For me, it's certainly a reason that keeps me away from certain hubs on some carriers as well as a reason that keeps me on my preferred carrier, and I buy well more than 50 percent full fare tickets.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:46 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition.

Of course there's real competition, there will always been some markets a certain carrier will have the greatest market share in, but for the majority of the US population there is a lot of direct and indirect competition. The market isn't static either.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).

If we're going strictly by volume, yes, most only care about price. But as Cubsrule indicated, the most profitable segment of the traveling public are the ones who do care about customer service. If you live in Columbus, OH and UA is constantly mishandling your bags, delaying your flights and giving you a surly attitude, you could easily switch to AA or DL, United will then most definitely feel the pain if enough of those high yielding travelers switch over.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS

Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

Living comfortably is only relative to what you determine your needs are to live comfortably. My living comfortably is different than your living comfortably.

[/quote]Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.[/quote]

If you are complaining about your lot in life you only have yourself to blame as you made your choices and really trying to blame others for your lot in life is stupid.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 194):
I've been wondering this. When the government sets the minimum wage, why do they not have an inflation measure baked in? Seems silly not to.

Governments like to trot out the minimum wage card during elections. Actually there is a correlation between rising the minimum wage to unemployment as companies that hire out at minimum wage often find it hard to stay in business when they are forced to raise the minimum wage they pay.

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:24:06]

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:25:00]
Rush forever Closer To My Heart

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos