DHstrike
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:04 am

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:33 pm

KLM is working to add Santiago, Chili to their network.
So far, written in pencil, 3x weekly, with their 77W.
All flights will stop in Buenos Aires. Signifacant change will be
the EZE schedules to facilitate the SCL will depart AMS in the evening,
arrive EZE in the morning LT, do the SCL trip, leave SCL around noon LT,
depart EZE around 16:00 LT for AMS, arriving AMS around noon LT.
Better connection times!
Lets hope they will write it in ink!
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:38 pm

These are some hot news!

So a tag from EZE, which would change to an evening departure from AMS, rather then than morning as it is currently.

I wonder if EZE is not performing as expected and these changes are deemed necessary. Apart from up-gauging to 77W, is EZE seeing any improvement in frequencies on the 3 weekly flights?
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:19 pm

Interesting. I wonder if EK/EY/QR/TK will add SCL as well at some point.

QR and TK fly to EZE via GRU and EK via GIG... I can see any of them decoupling the flights (terminus in Brazil) and adding SCL from EZE.
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:01 pm

If this is confirmed, it would be a clear sign that AFKL are willing to expand in Latin America (at the detriment of IB/IAG).

AF is launching PTY, in addition to KL daily service. KL has recently increased frequency to GIG, in addition to AF twice-daily service. AF is rumored to launch UIO in addition to KL service and now KL is rumored to launch SCL in addition to AF daily service.

The group synergy seems to be working well. From South America, the dual hub strategy means more flexibility and more connections not only to other European destinations but also to Africa, the ME and Asia. The South America to Asia market is one of the fastest growing in the Industry and IB seems unable to seize it.

In such a context, EY/EK/QR will also seek to expand in Latin America but this will be more complex than for AFKL because of the greater distance and the lesser O&D from their respective hubs. The task would be hardly easier for TK and even more complicated for SQ.

The economic slowdown in Argentina might be part of the reason why KL is adding a tag on its EZE service, just like AF has added MVD to EZE. But if AFKL were doing so badly in Argentina and if they were not confident KL would be successful in SCL, they would simply axe KL's service to EZE or decrease frequency.

Interesting times ahead !
 
Summa767
Posts: 1847
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 6):
AF is rumored to launch UIO in addition to KL service

I think that A340s would be suitable for UIO-CDG. I hope it happens!

But I wonder what KL has planned for the UIO/GYE operation.
Perhaps some sort of de-coupling, like IB has already announced?

Anyway, good to see AF-KL expand in Lat Am.

We have yet to see something about Colombia from KL, where recent reports indicate that AF-KL are looking at the possibilities. Currently AF operates a daily A340 to BOG.
What about CCS? KL abandoned soon after the merger with AF. Perhaps it's time to go back?
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting DHstrike (Thread starter):
KLM is working to add Santiago, Chili to their network.

If this news receives full go-ahead, it would be KLM's return to Santiago de Chile.

KLM has operated to SCL for many years in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's. The last AMS-SCL route was in the 1990's when KLM operated B747-200/300's routing:

- AMS-GIG-BUE-SCL-BUE-AMS 2x/week B747-200/300

The Rio de Janeiro stop was for technical reasons as the B742 cold not operate AMS-BUE non-stop with sufficient payload, the stop also included a crew change.

Previously KLM operated to SCL with DC10, DC8 and Constellations. The routings varied:

- AMS-ZRH-ROB-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC8
- AMS-LIS-GIG-MVD-SCL = DC10 (1984 KLM did not operate to BUE for political reasons)
- AMS-LPA-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC10
- AMS-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC10
- AMS-GIG-SAO-BUE-SCL = DC10

So the title should be KLM may return to SCL.
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 7):
I wonder what KL has planned for the UIO/GYE operation.
Perhaps some sort of de-coupling, like IB has already announced?
(...)
We have yet to see something about Colombia from KL, where recent reports indicate that AF-KL are looking at the possibilities. Currently AF operates a daily A340 to BOG.
What about CCS? KL abandoned soon after the merger with AF. Perhaps it's time to go back?

I have not heard or read anything about these possibilities, except KL is indeed evaluating BOG !
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:02 pm

Chile is booming some say:

Chile has seen booming exports, particularly in the mining sector of the economy. But unlike other nations with significant exports of commodities, Chile has successfully diversified its economy away from over-dependence on those exports while using property rights to avoid the destabilizing corruption and over-regulation that have afflicted “oil-cursed” neighbors such as Venezuela.

According to Caiman Valores, a prominent Latin American investment consultant:

Chile is an interesting investment location. It is stable, has solid regulations and low levels of corruption coupled with a particularly strong banking and finance sector…Chile is an important addition to any investor’s portfolio, providing geographic diversification along with access to probably the most advanced economy in Latin America.




On a side not.
I still don't understand why KLM left Tehran.
Load factor was above 90% any time I had seen them.
With some months at 95%.
Best of the middle eastern destinations. Or any other flights.
I just don't believe yields or profit on the route where less than on some other destinations KLM still operates.
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 11):
I still don't understand why KLM left Tehran.

Can it be because of the US embargo on Iran that could threaten their ops in the USA ?
IIRC, USA have passed a law forbidding any company trading with Iran to have any kind of activity in the US.
Please do correct me if I am wrong.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 11):
I still don't understand why KLM left Tehran.

The answer is simple as it can be found in the first sentence on the Wikipedia entry for the Iranian currency the Rial.

Quote:

'The rial (in Persian: ریال; ISO 4217 code IRR) is the currency of Iran and currently remains the world's least valued currency unit.'

KLM was selling tickets in local currency and could no longer exchange these funds to hard currency.

This situation can be tolerated as long as airlines are able to pay for fuel and staff in local currency in order to achieve a balance between local receipts and local expenses. But it is a regular occurrence for global airlines to withdraw services from certain 'currency' nations when no balance can be achieved. It is certainly not the first time for KLM to close a route for local exchange rate issues.
 
eastern023
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:31 pm

Santiago need more connectivity to Europe its an understatement. LAN/Iberia right now do a lot of the heavy lifting with AF as the only other alternative. I also hope this becomes an official announcement soon and it will go to complement AZ's plans to reopen SCL in two and a half years. SCL is still abandoned by Star Alliance carriers to Europe and the U.S. AC is the only Star Alliance North American carrier at SCL now. I am still floored that LH never reopened SCL.
AA will Rise Again!
 
LJ
Posts: 4993
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 9):
It is certainly not the first time for KLM to close a route for local exchange rate issues.

Indeed, KRT was axed for almost the same reason (okay the fact aid w.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 10):
Santiago need more connectivity to Europe its an understatement. LAN/Iberia right now do a lot of the heavy lifting with AF as the only other alternative.

Yet is an 1-stop service to SCL an option if you want to compete with LA or IB? I think not.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 1):
I wonder if EZE is not performing as expected and these changes are deemed necessary. Apart from up-gauging to 77W, is EZE seeing any improvement in frequencies on the 3 weekly flights?

It depends on how you see calling it an upgauge. EZE was supposed to go 4 weekly, but they cancelled that plan. Instead they get 3 weekly 77W, which is actually a downgauge compared to the initial plan.
 
eastern023
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 11):
Yet is an 1-stop service to SCL an option if you want to compete with LA or IB? I think not.

If they price the tickets right it could be a great seller, remember there is always the AF nonstop that I am sure will codeshare with KL for those who are willing to pay for the non stop. One stop from SCL is not a bad idea.
AA will Rise Again!
 
ogre727
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:43 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 11):

Oh.. I fly at least once a year to Santiago from Madrid where I live and even a two stop in KLM (would need to connect through AMS) is better in my books than Iberia. If the price is the same I would probably take KLM. LAN is too damn expensive, which is a shame.
I am between the devil and the deep blue sea
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 5):
The Rio de Janeiro stop was for technical reasons as the B742 cold not operate AMS-BUE non-stop with sufficient payload, the stop also included a crew change.

Did KL nolt have 5th freedom rights GIG-EZE? If so, the GIG stop wasn't only for technical reasons.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Did KL nolt have 5th freedom rights GIG-EZE? If so, the GIG stop wasn't only for technical reasons.

Yes, they did and they continue to have.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1300
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 7):
On a side not.
I still don't understand why KLM left Tehran.
Load factor was above 90% any time I had seen them.
With some months at 95%.
Best of the middle eastern destinations. Or any other flights.

Easy. The Netherlands belongs to the U.N. The U.N. has implemented sanctions against Iran. KLM, being a Dutch carrier, is subject to the sanctions and cannot serve THR.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting superjeff (Reply 16):

Lufthansa and others still fly to THR.


The currency reason might be the reason KLM has stopped the route.
But even then, most seats where booked by american- and canadian- and european-iranians and others from those nations and europe, and they would buy tickets in dollars and euro's.

The only differece I can think of between KLM and LH, as any internatinal political situation change will aply to both (I think), is that LH has more premium traffic to make up for whatever.

[Edited 2013-08-03 17:56:20]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 17):
Quoting superjeff (Reply 16):

Lufthansa and others still fly to THR.

Alitalia operates to THR.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:13 am

Alitalian operating to THR makes KLM dropping it even more strange.
You would think KLM has a much greater feed to AMS from the US Canada and EU than Alitalia.
And currency and political problems should effect them both, one would think.
Plus Alitalia is not in a good shape for many years now, and eventhough AF KLM has its share of problems, KLM is the stronger airline of the two...

So maybe Alitalia has stronger premium traffic.. maybe LH has too..
Or maybe must I'm missing key information here...

[Edited 2013-08-03 19:15:36]

[Edited 2013-08-03 19:16:03]
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:25 am

Quoting superjeff (Reply 16):

As does Germany... yet Lufthansa flies to Tehran........
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2968
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting DHstrike (Thread starter):
Chili

Chile, please.




.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 5):
The last AMS-SCL route was in the 1990's when KLM operated B747-200/300's routing:

Did the MD-11 ever operate at SCL during the 90s?




.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 10):
Santiago need more connectivity to Europe its an understatement. LAN/Iberia right now do a lot of the heavy lifting with AF as the only other alternative

I'm not clear about how the coming KL AMS-EZE-SCL 3x weekly may be competitive against AF CDG-SCL 7x weekly, LA SCL-MAD 7x weekly and IB MAD-SCL 7x weekly.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Mdutch
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:47 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:50 am

So the title should be KLM may return to SCL.
Quoting Azure (Reply 6):
If this news receives full go-ahead, it would be KLM's return to Santiago de Chile.

KLM has operated to SCL for many years in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's. The last AMS-SCL route was in the 1990's when KLM operated B747-200/300's routing:

- AMS-GIG-BUE-SCL-BUE-AMS 2x/week B747-200/300

The Rio de Janeiro stop was for technical reasons as the B742 cold not operate AMS-BUE non-stop with sufficient payload, the stop also included a crew change.

Previously KLM operated to SCL with DC10, DC8 and Constellations. The routings varied:

- AMS-ZRH-ROB-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC8
- AMS-LIS-GIG-MVD-SCL = DC10 (1984 KLM did not operate to BUE for political reasons)
- AMS-LPA-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC10
- AMS-GIG-MVD-BUE-SCL = DC10
- AMS-GIG-SAO-BUE-SCL = DC10

So the title should be KLM may return to SCL.

Not true.... KLM last flew SCL on 747-400 AMS-GRU-EZE-SCL-EZE-AMS in 2000......
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:33 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Did KL nolt have 5th freedom rights GIG-EZE? If so, the GIG stop wasn't only for technical reasons.

KLM has local traffic rights on:

- GIG-MVD
- GIG-BUE
- GIG-SCL

But as this was a one-way intermediate stop for operational purposes - note KLM operated BUE-AMS non-stop return, the airline could not offer passengers return travel. In addition demand for AMS-BUE-SCL was sufficient to fill the flight.

Quoting mdutch (Reply 22):
Not true.... KLM last flew SCL on 747-400 AMS-GRU-EZE-SCL-EZE-AMS in 2000......

What you are saying is that the KLM B744 also operated the route and made a tech-stop in Brazil on the outward journey due to payload restrictions.
 
KL577
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 11):
Quoting factsonly (Reply 9):
It is certainly not the first time for KLM to close a route for local exchange rate issues.

Indeed, KRT was axed for almost the same reason (okay the fact aid w.

ADD was cancelled for this reason. KL was no longer allowed to exchange Ethiopian Birr into Euros. Subsequently, it was not viable for KL to operate KRT on a stand-alone basis.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4095
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:52 am

The proposed SCL tag first and foremost indicates that KL is not able to fill the aircraft to EZE only. The addition of SCL adds plenty of costs related to increased utilization, additional cycles on the airframes involved and a crew change at EZE, all of which the airline apparently expects to recoup by the additional revenue SCL will be bringing. KL will also likely be able to improve yields on the route by shifting away from the southbound daylight pattern.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
I'm not clear about how the coming KL AMS-EZE-SCL 3x weekly may be competitive against AF CDG-SCL 7x weekly, LA SCL-MAD 7x weekly and IB MAD-SCL 7x weekly.

Both EZE and SCL should be seen as AF complements. Passengers can mix and match AF and KL sectors on all tickets anyway, so there will be a choice of 10 weekly flights to and from both destinations.
 
Mdutch
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:47 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 5):
The last AMS-SCL route was in the 1990's when KLM operated B747-200/300's routing:

- AMS-GIG-BUE-SCL-BUE-AMS 2x/week B747-200/300

What I was trying to say was that KLM operated 747-400 to EZE/GIG/GRU throughout the 90's and not 747-200/300.....  
 
eastern023
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
Did the MD-11 ever operate at SCL during the 90s?

It never did. The only european carriers that used the MD-11 to SCL in the 90's were Swissair and Alitalia. KLM had the 744 on the route as previously reported.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
I'm not clear about how the coming KL AMS-EZE-SCL 3x weekly may be competitive against AF CDG-SCL 7x weekly, LA SCL-MAD 7x weekly and IB MAD-SCL 7x weekly.

KL flight will not compete against AF SCL-CDG, but complement it. You can rest assured that the AF codeshare will be designated on the KL flight. So if you really think it, is SkyTeam response to OneWorld. As far as I know SCL is a great cargo and premium market.

Greetings from IAD
AA will Rise Again!
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:51 pm

Cargo will play a major role in a final 'Go-ahead' decision, herewith the current cargo flights SCL-AMS & BUE-AMS;

- dep. SCL 05:00 - arr. AMS 08:05+1 MP5711 aircraft M1F 21:05 hrs Tue (via UIO, MIA)
- dep. SCL 10:15 - arr. AMS 13:20+1 MP5712 aircraft M1F 21:05 hrs Wed (via UIO, MIA)
- dep. SCL 10:15 - arr. AMS 14:15+1 MP5713 aircraft M1F 22:00 hrs Thu (via UIO, MIA)
- dep. SCL 07:20 - arr. AMS 10:25+1 MP5715 aircraft M1F 21:05 hrs Sat (via UIO, MIA)
- dep. SCL - arr. AMS UC 1500 LAN Chile Cargo B777 Sunday


- dep. BUE - AMS MP 1164 Martinair Holland MD11 Sunday
- dep. BUE - AMS MP1156 Martinair Holland MD11 Tuesday
- dep. BUE - AMS MP1156 martinair holland MD11 Friday
 
Arcano
Posts: 2301
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 5):
KLM has operated to SCL for many years in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's. The last AMS-SCL route was in the 1990's when KLM operated B747-200/300's routing:

It ended with 744, and along history I'm sure as LH, it used both International Airports Santiago has had: ULC (Los Cerrillos) and SCL (Pudahuel)

In this photo, this SAS in Cerrillos is being served with KLM labelled catering

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Tancred



The good old days of SCL:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sebastian Popovsky

Quoting LJ (Reply 11):

Yet is an 1-stop service to SCL an option if you want to compete with LA or IB? I think not.

It's absolutely a wonderful alernative when you see the outrageous prices LAN is charging to almost everywhere in any decent weekday or time. Also good if we get (again) more options to EZE

Great news for SCL if this come true, now we are waiting LH and BA back and we're done...

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
eastern023
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:31 pm

So, let's keep our fingers crossed for an announcement. Sometime soon.

[Edited 2013-08-05 10:32:12]
AA will Rise Again!
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):

The proposed SCL tag first and foremost indicates that KL is not able to fill the aircraft to EZE only.

You may be to quick to judge here, as KLM has the B77W scheduled 3x/weekly on AMS-BUE-AMS in winter 2013, regardless of whether SCL comes on board or not. It is highly unlikely that KL would schedule a 425-seat aircraft on the route if it had difficulty filling seats.

Though I fully agree with your other points of the increasing operating cost and worsening aircraft utilisation of a SCL tag-on, the driver for a possible SCL return could well lie in the airline's need to find alternatives for the 4x/weekly MP MD11's that are currently scheduled on SCL-AMS and the 3x/weekly BUE-AMS MP MD11Fs.

In light of the cargo market and the need for cargo restructuring, the AF/KL group is reconsidering its extensive all-cargo fleet of AF B744F, B777F, KL B744ERF and MP B744F, MD11F. It could just be that they are working through several operating scenarios, that could just as well include:

- KL operates AMS-MVD-SCL, instead of AF CDG-BUE-MVD.
- KL and AF operate frequent B77W to both BUE and SCL to accomodate as much cargo as they can.
- Or keep the cargo flights in operation to BUE & SCL.

Ultimately market demand and overall costs and profits will dictate the outcome.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:40 am

It seems AF/KL wants to cover both Uruguay and Chile thru EZE and this could lead to allow interesting connections. I believe KL will be able to offer SCL and MVD thru EZE.

Could be the way to increase offer to SCL.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LJ
Posts: 4993
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:32 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 31):
You may be to quick to judge here, as KLM has the B77W scheduled 3x/weekly on AMS-BUE-AMS in winter 2013, regardless of whether SCL comes on board or not. It is highly unlikely that KL would schedule a 425-seat aircraft on the route if it had difficulty filling seats.

They are decreasing their offer as the initial plans were 4 weekly 772 to EZE in W13. The only reason why you don't see this downgauge is because it's the same as they did in W12 (and thus technically it's not a downgauge).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):
It seems AF/KL wants to cover both Uruguay and Chile thru EZE and this could lead to allow interesting connections. I believe KL will be able to offer SCL and MVD thru EZE.

You mean a sort of scissor hub? However, isn't it cheaper to use AR for such flights (unless there is cargo angle)?

Quoting factsonly (Reply 31):
In light of the cargo market and the need for cargo restructuring, the AF/KL group is reconsidering its extensive all-cargo fleet of AF B744F, B777F, KL B744ERF and MP B744F, MD11F. It could just be that they are working through several operating scenarios, that could just as well include:

If replacing MP flights to/from SCL/EZE is the plan I wouold assume use put the 74E on AMS-EZE-SCL.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 10):
Santiago need more connectivity to Europe its an understatement. LAN/Iberia right now do a lot of the heavy lifting with AF as the only other alternative.

Starting in December, IB will increase frequency and capacity on the MAD-SCL route to 10x weekly (A346). Also, both LA and BA have publicly expressed an interest in launching SCL-LHR with the 787s...

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
However, isn't it cheaper to use AR for such flights (unless there is cargo angle)?

Does AR even operate EZE-SCL?
 
factsonly
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
If replacing MP flights to/from SCL/EZE is the plan I wouold assume use put the 74E on AMS-EZE-SCL.


But we know that the KLM B744 does not have enough range to make AMS-BUE non-stop. The very reason why the airline operated AMS-GIG/GRU-BUE-AMS in the past. A B74E operating AMS-GRU-BUE-SCL-BUE-AMS would certainly be uncompetitive in the SCL market.

The KLM B772 and B77W have the range - with some cargo capability - to make AMS-BUE-AMS non-stop in both directions.
 
LH526
Posts: 1990
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:23 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 10):
SCL is still abandoned by Star Alliance carriers to Europe and the U.S.

Ecactly! Please bring back either LH or LX to SCL. With JJ out I don't really see Avianca or Taca as an alternative. Flying through central america adds quite some hrs to the routing as well.

Now with IB/LA/JJ and KL/AF Santiago is well overserved by both oneWorld and Skyteam and lacks a decent Star Alliance presence.

[Edited 2013-08-06 06:51:30]
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting LH526 (Reply 36):
Now with IB/LA/JJ and KL/AF Santiago is well overserved by both oneWorld and Skyteam and lacks a decent Star Alliance presence.

Actually Star Alliance strategy in South America and specially on the South America to Europe market is not clear. One can even wonder if they have any. Right now *A market share is 30% (2nd after ST 37%). This market share will fall to 23% after TAM joins OW (Source : http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...samba-salsa-tango-and-rumba-103061 ). Furthermore TP is to be sold and there is no certainty they will remain in *A. Meanwhile ST is rather aggressive and is opening new routes / adding frequency while OW is trying to keep up. LH/LX have not taken advantage of Copa's membership to *A, but KL and now AF have. LH/LX are not present in SCL,... This is all the more surprising as this market is growing.




Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):
It seems AF/KL wants to cover both Uruguay and Chile thru EZE and this could lead to allow interesting connections. I believe KL will be able to offer SCL and MVD thru EZE.

Could be the way to increase offer to SCL.

It can make sense as Buenos Aires is "ST territory". Per your statement, I suppose AF and KL have traffic rights between EZE and SCL/MVD. However I wonder how attractive will be the KL EZE-SCL service compared to AR. The latter has much more visibility for obvious reasons, it operates from AEP (much more centrally located than EZE) and offers many more frequencies than KL will. I am very skeptical about 5th freedom flights when there is already a well established competition.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 37):
Per your statement, I suppose AF and KL have traffic rights between EZE and SCL/MVD.

AF doesn't have traffic rights for EZE-MVD. I don't know for future KL service EZE-SCL, but I think AF had the rights when they were flying CDG-EZE-SCL (but I'm not 100% sure).

Quoting Azure (Reply 37):
However I wonder how attractive will be the KL EZE-SCL service compared to AR.

If KL has traffic rights, I think they will be very attractive, AR being such a joke and unreliable.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):

You mean a sort of scissor hub? However, isn't it cheaper to use AR for such flights (unless there is cargo angle)?

Yes, it is a sort of scissor hub.
In regards to AR, the problem is that AR divides flights between AEP and EZE.

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
They are decreasing their offer as the initial plans were 4 weekly 772 to EZE in W13. The only reason why you don't see this downgauge is because it's the same as they did in W12 (and thus technically it's not a downgauge).

Correct. KL started both EZE and GIG jointly. While GIG manage to be increased to 5x weekly, EZE remains the same.

Quoting Azure (Reply 37):

It can make sense as Buenos Aires is "ST territory". Per your statement, I suppose AF and KL have traffic rights between EZE and SCL/MVD. However I wonder how attractive will be the KL EZE-SCL service compared to AR

True. The problem with AR as i pointed out before is the fact that Aerolineas runs many of their short flights to MVD and SCL (if not all) thru AEP.
KL and AF will offer premium overnight service to Buenos Aires as well as service to SCL and MVD, which means AF/KL will compete for the 1 stop service from Paris and Amsterdam, the same as AR, LA and JJ offers.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 34):
Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
However, isn't it cheaper to use AR for such flights (unless there is cargo angle)?

Does AR even operate EZE-SCL?

No AR flights EZE-SCL, only from AEP.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
No AR flights EZE-SCL, only from AEP.

That's because AR/AU only have to deal with one competitor on the AEP-SCL route. Whereas on the EZE-SCL route they would have to compete with three carriers.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2968
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 37):
LH/LX have not taken advantage of Copa's membership to *A, but KL and now AF have

The problem is that Copa Airlines is currently operating flights on behalf of both KL [SkyTeam] and IB [One World]. The coming AF CDG-PTY will probably bear the CM designator as well by means of code-share cooperation.
Neither LH nor LX fly to Panama City at this time.




.

Quoting Azure (Reply 37):
LH/LX are not present in SCL,... This is all the more surprising as this market is growing.

LX ZRH-GRU-SCL 7x weekly suspended the [GRU-SCL] segment in 2009 and LH is code-sharing with TAM is such sector.
With that being said, LH/LX has no interest to operate at SCL by means of their own planes.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Arcano
Posts: 2301
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 41):
That's because AR/AU only have to deal with one competitor on the AEP-SCL route. Whereas on the EZE-SCL route they would have to compete with three carriers.

Yet they lose EZE as conexion point for Chileans, as once was on AR
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:27 am

AR and Skyteam partners could offer connections between SCL and *AMS, ASU, *ATL, BCN, BOG, CCS, *CDG, FCO, MAD, *MEX, MIA, SYD, VVI, etc. via EZE.
*Operated by other Skyteam carriers.

However, SCL already has non-stop/direct flights to ASU, ATL, BOG, CCS, CDG, MAD, MEX, MIA, SYD, VVI, etc.

[Edited 2013-08-06 20:40:21]
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:51 pm

Living in the north eastern part of Rotterdam as a kid growing up and pretty much having memorized KLM's timetable , I remember the DC-10's roaring overhead late at night on their way to Lisbon, the first leg of a long journey for these birds. Loved it.
 
eastern023
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: KLM To Santiago Chile

Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 45):
Living in the north eastern part of Rotterdam as a kid growing up and pretty much having memorized KLM's timetable , I remember the DC-10's roaring overhead late at night on their way to Lisbon, the first leg of a long journey for these birds. Loved it.

When visiting my grandparents in Chile, way back in the day KL 742 used to fly over our heads around 4am on its final into 17L at SCL. It will then turn around around 7am for the multi stop to AMS. KL later changed the arrival into SCL to mid morning returning to AMS around midday. I miss the old days.
AA will Rise Again!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos