Air India Plan San Francisco And Madrid

777way · Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:06 pm

According to a section of AI website that is not allowed to be linked on the forum, they plan to add SFO and MAD next year, also listed in there are former destinations Zurich, Nairobi and Jakarta, besides Rome, Milan, Moscow and Sydney, all as proposed routes except SYD which starts later this month.

G500 · Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:14 pm

San Francisco with a stop where??

Their DEL-FRA-LAX service did very well, I wonder why it went away? They should look at LAX as well

as739x · Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):

Non-stop. They have been talking about this for a while. DEL-SFO is around 6700nm, well within the range of the 788.

LAXintl · Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Yes this is actually a bit old. The RFI news has been out for a little while.

At the end, I seriously doubt AI open more than a couple of the 9 stations they list and are seeking price information for.

AeroWesty · Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
they plan to add SFO and MAD next year

This is incorrect, as pointed out in the previous thread on this topic which was deleted last night. MAD and SFO appear on a fuel tender, which is freely viewable on Air India's website, as a possible future destination without giving a date in which it may start.

Don't believe a single word about any definite plans to serve these two destinations.

comorin · Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:30 pm

That's good news for a lot of folks in the Bay Area. Are all these flights 787?

goacom · Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Given Air India's horrific reputation in terms of reliability, I doubt they will get any significant business traffic from the Bay Area.

Viscount724 · Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
San Francisco with a stop where??

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
Non-stop. They have been talking about this for a while. DEL-SFO is around 6700nm, well within the range of the 788.

It's about 300 nm shorter than HKG-JFK/EWR.

bioyuki · Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:14 pm

Quoting goacom (Reply 6):
Given Air India's horrific reputation in terms of reliability, I doubt they will get any significant business traffic from the Bay Area.

Ehh, AI's business class hard product is competitive enough that I'm sure they won't have too many issues filling 18 seats a day for those looking for the only nonstop option to Delhi.

Too bad they never got their stuff together to get into *A...if they were in *A, they'd have zero issues filling J class out of SFO.

lightsaber · Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
Non-stop. They have been talking about this for a while. DEL-SFO is around 6700nm, well within the range of the 788.

Which would be the appropriate size.

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 8):
Ehh, AI's business class hard product is competitive enough that I'm sure they won't have too many issues filling 18 seats a day for those looking for the only nonstop option to Delhi.

At what yield? AI needs to improve their service consistency. I think they could make this route work, but they are one of many airlines that must improve consistency.

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 8):
Too bad they never got their stuff together to get into *A...if they were in *A, they'd have zero issues filling J class out of SFO.

Most airlines entering an alliance get everything done in 30 to 60 days. Well within the 90 day time limit. I know many focus on how the July 31st deadline should have been extended... But that was after 42 months!

Lightsaber

Viscount724 · Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Quoting bioyuki (Reply 8):
Too bad they never got their stuff together to get into *A...if they were in *A, they'd have zero issues filling J class out of SFO.

Most airlines entering an alliance get everything done in 30 to 60 days. Well within the 90 day time limit

Much longer than that (at least a year) in many, probably most, cases, usually due to changes needed in IT systems etc.

Do you have a few examples of airlines entering one of the 3 major alliances that officially joined within 90 days of their membership being approved? I can't think of any.

[Edited 2013-08-05 16:38:37]

Coal · Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting goacom (Reply 6):
Given Air India's horrific reputation in terms of reliability, I doubt they will get any significant business traffic from the Bay Area.

A lot of people today have to go India - SIN - ICN - SFO on SQ. If they can introduce non-stop India - SFO I am sure many people would opt for this option.

On another note, CGK doesn't surprise me. Many Indians are coming here to take part in the booming economy, especially in the mining sector (though that is now slowing down with China slowing down). Some Indians I have spoken to here in Jakarta actually find it much easier to do business in Indonesia than in India. Quote: "At least in Jakarta you know exactly how to bribe and how much to give. In India, you never know whether you'll also have to bribe the janitor, and how much!".

Cheers
Coal

willzzz88 · Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:54 am

Coal,

Is there still a Indian fascination with SQ or are the other ONE-STOP options like JL or ANA via NRT, KE/OZ via ICN, CA via PEK, MU via PVG and CZ via CAN or CX via HKG would be faster.

I'm not an expert on the India route from the West Coast (I fly to only East Asia) but wouldn't the most efficient in terms of one-stops be the best? (This includes EK via DXB or Europe via the majors).

I guess price plays a BIG factor on some of these flights too.

AeroWesty · Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
At what yield? AI needs to improve their service consistency. I think they could make this route work, but they are one of many airlines that must improve consistency.

Don't tell me you've fallen for this hokum, too. There are NO definite plans for AI to serve any of the destinations listed in the OP. They are listed for bids on AI's website for refueling services at various proposed, online, and diversionary airports, about a dozen in all. It's taking a fishing expedition and trying to make something of it.

Coal · Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:30 am

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 12):
Is there still a Indian fascination with SQ or are the other ONE-STOP options like JL or ANA via NRT, KE/OZ via ICN, CA via PEK, MU via PVG and CZ via CAN or CX via HKG would be faster.

From what I have seen in the last few years flying SIN-ICN-SFO and also SIN-HKG regularly (the latter continues to SFO), the pax are usually 1/3 Indian.

AI also code-share with SQ on SIN-HKG/ICN-SFO.

Cheers
Coal

AirIndia · Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 14):
From what I have seen in the last few years flying SIN-ICN-SFO and also SIN-HKG regularly (the latter continues to SFO), the pax are usually 1/3 Indian.

EK's flight DXB-SFO is full of Indian IT workers and their families. EK's connection is very popular with the bay area workers...

lightsaber · Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Do you have a few examples of airlines entering one of the 3 major alliances that officially joined within 90 days of their membership being approved? I can't think of any.

I stand corrected. I searched for examples and most were about a year. 9W made a point they could join in 30 days and I mistook what was probably a bad quote for typical.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
It's taking a fishing expedition and trying to make something of it.

Agreed. But let's do the thought exercise. The issue is the low premium SFO to India.

I personally think AI is in deep trouble...

Lightsaber

AeroWesty · Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:14 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
But let's do the thought exercise.

No problem with that. My view is do it in a thread designed for that topic. Doing it here simply encourages others to create threads which are wildly inaccurate. Topics have titles for a reason.

MIflyer12 · Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
DEL-SFO is around 6700nm, well within the range of the 788.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
It's about 300 nm shorter than HKG-JFK/EWR.

'Within range' doesn't mean economically viable at current fuel prices and reasonably anticipated yield.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
At what yield? AI needs to improve their service consistency. I think they could make this route work, but they are one of many airlines that must improve consistency.

LAXintl · Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:08 pm

Finding passengers wont be the issue. SFO has an ample market size for an India link. The question is more at what price point.

Historically AI does quite well in the US load wise, but the desi traveler tends to be anything but a high yielding one, which is why routes especially the ULH nonstops have struggled so much. Also, much of business component from SFO will be ones travelling on corporate discounts, so even that portion wont be the highest yielding.

However even if AI returns to California, airlines like EK, LH, SQ, etc will still be very popular options as travelers to any point besides DEL still require a connection. I know many that certainly prefer to do it outside India to reach their final Indian destination.

[Edited 2013-08-06 09:21:34]

IrishAyes · Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:22 pm

I cannot imagine that the Spain - India market has any promising yield potential, especially with the Spanish economy in the gutter right now.

goacom · Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Finding passengers wont be the issue. SFO has an ample market size for an India link. The question is more at what price point.

I would tend to agree with Laxintl on this. I do not see the business traveler taking AI's direct flights over indirect options offered by the asian or middle eastern competitors. AI has an extremely tarnished reputation and most blue chip companies do not even give their employees an option of booking on AI. The fact that it is not part of any alliance will also reduce its appeal. At most AI will get very price sensitive clientele. If AI prices its services at a premium, it can expect very low load factors. There has and will not be any fundamental changes at AI until it is allowed to completely break free from government "patronage" at the top and its "employed for life" public sector employees at the bottom. Just the fact that AI has recently acquired some new government subsidized aircraft does not change this fundamental truth. I tend to shun AI for personal travel even it is available at a significant discount, because of my recent experiences with it, not to mention the trouble I would be with my spouse for choosing AI!

airbazar · Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 12):
Is there still a Indian fascination with SQ

SQ serves 6 cities in India. EK serves 10. By contrast JL and KE serve only 1 city and CX 4.
I wouldn't call it fascination as much as market penetration.

SCQ83 · Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 20):
I cannot imagine that the Spain - India market has any promising yield potential, especially with the Spanish economy in the gutter right now.

Emirates, Qatar and Turkish have expanded in MAD lately... in fact EK entered the Spanish market after the recession (and now they fly two daily to MAD and one daily - soon A380 - to BCN).

Anyway, I agree a MAD-DEL does not make any sense. Business, VFR or tourism connections between Spain and India historically have been and are minimal. And because of the massive expansion of EK/QR/TK... that even threaten direct flights Europe-India in way better established markets... I can't see the point for those flights now. Spain-India connections are way cheaper and more convenient than ever before (not long ago, the only way to go from Spain to Delhi or Mumbai was via LHR, CDG or FRA... now you have EK with two daily flights and tons of daily Indian destinations/frequencies a short hop from Dubai - and add QR and TK -).

aarbee · Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 15):
EK's flight DXB-SFO is full of Indian IT workers and their families. EK's connection is very popular with the bay area workers...

Yeah but EK provides 9 other destinations (apart from Delhi) in India. So getting an international product on the connecting flight and the reliability associated with them.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
However even if AI returns to California, airlines like EK, LH, SQ, etc will still be very popular options as travelers to any point besides DEL still require a connection. I know many that certainly prefer to do it outside India to reach their final Indian destination.

Precisely.

lightsaber · Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
Topics have titles for a reason.

Agreed. And it is possible, if only a thought exercise because of:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 18):
'Within range' doesn't mean economically viable at current fuel prices and reasonably anticipated yield.

That is the likely outcome. SFO is notorious for poor premium yield. And too much will depend on AI's connecting experience. That is something they still have to improve.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
However even if AI returns to California, airlines like EK, LH, SQ, etc will still be very popular options as travelers to any point besides DEL still require a connection. I know many that certainly prefer to do it outside India to reach their final Indian destination.

Quoting goacom (Reply 21):
because of my recent experiences with it

I personally know *zero* individuals who like flying AI. I know dozens who will never fly them again... And I live in LA! I must know 50 people who regularly fly to India. I hear about UA, LH, AF, EK, AA/OneWorld/BA, and a few others... It just occurred to me I know no one who has flown AI in the last year...

Lightsaber

legacyins · Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
SFO is notorious for poor premium yield. And too much will depend on AI's connecting experience. That is something they still have to improve.

I'm confused about this statement. SFO has poor premium yield in general from ALL carriers or are you referring to AI having difficulty making this route work yield wise for being ULH?

SonomaFlyer · Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 26):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
SFO is notorious for poor premium yield. And too much will depend on AI's connecting experience. That is something they still have to improve.

I'm confused about this statement. SFO has poor premium yield in general from ALL carriers or are you referring to AI having difficulty making this route work yield wise for being ULH?

BA wouldn't be running double daily 744s if there was poor premium yield. I think he was referring to the fact that this flight will be difficult for AI given the fact most folks flying there bargain hunt and fly econ rather than a large flow of business traffic.

The business traffic coming out of the Bay Area would be unlikely to jump over to AI until/unless they get their act together and also join Star, OneWorld or SkyTeam.

IrishAyes · Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:52 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 23):
Emirates, Qatar and Turkish have expanded in MAD lately... in fact EK entered the Spanish market after the recession (and now they fly two daily to MAD and one daily - soon A380 - to BCN).

That is because the EK, QR, EY and TK are largely becoming the worlds biggest and most powerful connecting hub airlines over DXB, DOH, AUH and IST.

These airlines are also profitable and their governments are largely pro-airline. They are also investing in airports with the infrastructure in place to stay ahead of the curve.

In India, and with Air India, none of the similarities are there. As such, AI will have to rely largely on O&D from Spain to India.

as739x · Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
That is the likely outcome. SFO is notorious for poor premium yield.

Just curious what you mean by this. On what carriers?

SYDBCN · Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:59 pm

Market DEL-BCN is larger, at least O&D it would male more sense

However I still do not see them in Spain anytime soon, TK, EK, QR can fill the needs of India -Spain traffic.

I could see AI combining MXP and BCN, as a tag or triangular route, a 787 maybe...but even then... not sure...

nomorerjs · Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:08 am

Any word of an ORD-BOM flight? Someone could make this work, I would think.

777way · Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:43 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 20):

PIA have also downgraded BCN from 772 to an all economy class A310.

sankaps · Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 8):
Ehh, AI's business class hard product is competitive enough that I'm sure they won't have too many issues filling 18 seats a day for those looking for the only nonstop option to Delhi.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
At what yield? AI needs to improve their service consistency. I think they could make this route work, but they are one of many airlines that must improve consistency.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Finding passengers wont be the issue. SFO has an ample market size for an India link. The question is more at what price point.

Based on the nightmare I am experiencing trying to get info to process a simple date change on a business class ticket DEL-LHR-DEL that was booked directly on airindia.com, I am not sure AI has figured out how to handle higher yield passengers. To summarize:

1. Changes cannot be made on the web

2. Call centers give conflicting information based on who you get to speak to

3. Change fees cannot be paid on the phone or online, have to visit a ticket office physically within *3 hours* of making the change to pay for it

4. No one seems to know for sure whether the date change will result in a fare change: Call center told me to email AI's ecommerce dept as the booking was made online, the ecommerce dept referred me to a Mumbai ticketing email ID, and the Mumbai ticketing people told me to call the call center! So a full circle, and still no answer!

5. Perhaps due to my numerous calls and emails, someone has messed around with the booking and it is no longer viewable on airindia.com!

AI needs to figure out that succeeding in the airline business involves more than shiny new airplanes and fanciful new routes. They need to get the basics of the "plumbing" in place first!

[Edited 2013-08-07 02:26:52]

thekennady · Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 31):

I heard AI may have been looking at this. They need a codeshare partner out of ORD. And with AI already daily to DEL, and TK, EY, QR, as well as EU carriers all offering connections to BOM, is there really more room for a ORD-BOM route? UA seems content with EWR-BOM, as Connecting pax can be funneled through EWR along with a strong O&D demand.

[Edited 2013-08-07 03:58:59]

comorin · Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):

OK, I'll take the bait and respond:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
I am not sure AI has figured out how to handle higher yield passengers.

Um, Air India's focus customer is the man on the street, usually a person who cannot afford to fly.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
1. Changes cannot be made on the web

That is because the transaction database in stored on a large, single-user excel sheet somewhere on "the Cloud'.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
2. Call centers give conflicting information based on who you get to speak to

That is an example of personalized service. See, no 'bots handling your call!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
3. Change fees cannot be paid on the phone or online, have to visit a ticket office physically within *3 hours* of making the change to pay for it

A little 'Indian Humor". AI does not have any ticket offices, so you are on your own.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
4. No one seems to know for sure whether the date change will result in a fare change: Call center told me to email AI's ecommerce dept as the booking was made online, the ecommerce dept referred me to a Mumbai ticketing email ID, and the Mumbai ticketing people told me to call the call center! So a full circle, and still no answer!

And so you banged your phone down in frustration? Another win for AI!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):
5. Perhaps due to my numerous calls and emails, someone has messed around with the booking and it is no longer viewable on airindia.com!

Eternal optimist! Given the circumstances, I would have gone with a paranormal explanation.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 33):

AI needs to figure out that succeeding in the airline business involves more than shiny new airplanes and fanciful new routes. They need to get the basics of the "plumbing" in place first!

1. What is 'succeeding' really mean?

Depends on your metrics...

2. Could we please not use the word 'plumbing' in matters relating to the subcontinent? I have been in BLR a year and awaiting PTSD. In every 'modern' office building here is a door marked "Men" that dared not be open...

hohd · Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
I personally know *zero* individuals who like flying AI. I know dozens who will never fly them again... And I live in LA! I must know 50 people who regularly fly to India. I hear about UA, LH, AF, EK, AA/OneWorld/BA, and a few others... It just occurred to me I know no one who has flown AI in the last year...

Lightsaber

That does not mean anything. Considering that AI does not fly from LAX. Not many would choose AI if they do not even fly there. The other airlines you mentioned, all fly from LAX. I know some who fly to ORD to catch the flight to DEL or HYD, especially HYD.

sankaps · Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 35):
Um, Air India's focus customer is the man on the street, usually a person who cannot afford to fly.

Quoting comorin (Reply 35):
That is because the transaction database in stored on a large, single-user excel sheet somewhere on "the Cloud'.

Quoting comorin (Reply 35):
A little 'Indian Humor". AI does not have any ticket offices, so you are on your own.

Quoting comorin (Reply 35):
And so you banged your phone down in frustration? Another win for AI!

Quoting comorin (Reply 35):
2. Could we please not use the word 'plumbing' in matters relating to the subcontinent? I have been in BLR a year and awaiting PTSD. In every 'modern' office building here is a door marked "Men" that dared not be open...

Comorin -- I was going to respond to your comments, but then on reading further I realized you were simply yanking AI's chain!

Pathetic state of affairs as far as the behind-the-scenes "plumbing" is concerned, isn't it? Uh oh, there's that 'p' word again!

(PS, for the benefit of others: AI does still have city offices, only in places like London they are no longer located on prime areas, it is now located here in a suburban office block)

CaliAtenza · Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:25 am

AI needs to be put out to pasture; its sad..but it has to be done: http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...dreamliners-alone-cannot-save.html

comorin · Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 38):
AI needs to be put out to pasture; its sad..but it has to be done:

My friend, when the oil wells run dry and the airline industry has returned to dust, Air India will still be flying. India's GDP, one day expected to even surpass China, will not feel the pinch. The real India, the India of huddled masses and elderly family, need this airline. As a political entity, AI will survive.

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