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JoeCanuck
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Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:00 pm

I had no idea this was even being legally disputed. I guess the gist is that airline customers are smart enough to work it out for themselves.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...e-over-747-8-advertisement-389223/

Quote:
Airbus has failed to convince advertising monitors to castigate Boeing for publishing claims that its 747-8
achieves better fuel burn per seat than the A380.
Two specific Airbus complaints about the advertisement - which appeared in Flightglobal publication Flight
International - have been dismissed by the UK's Advertising Standards Authority.
What the...?
 
evomutant
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:09 pm

The actual ruling:

http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudi...ed-Kingdom-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_215279.aspx

The readers digest version is that its not misleading because nobody in the industry takes a blind bit of notice of such adverts.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:18 pm

You can invent any fuel burn per seat mile on any airliner by picking a seating arrangement out of the blue sky.

What matters for the airline decision makers is useable cabin floor area. They decide the cabin fragmentation between premium and economy classes, seat width and pitch. Taking that into account, and using Boeing's own numbers, the 8% advantage roughly shifts 180 degrees to an A380 advantage. Not quite, but almost. It is an insult on airline decision makers to indicate that they don't know that.

Shame on Boeing for issuing such a silly advertisement.

Shame on Airbus (to a lesser degree) for even commenting on such a silly advertisement.

Kudos to the UK Advertising Standards Authority for not letting themselves into such a silly war on words between companies who are (supposed to be) professionals in the airliner business.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Richard28
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting evomutant (Reply 1):
The actual ruling:

thanks for the link

Its interesting to see some of the assumptions Boeing used in the comparison:

for the.."747-8, for First Class and Business Class, was 61 inches (155 cm) and 39 inches (99 cm) respectively whilst the published standard layout of the A380 had an 82-inch (208 cm) seat pitch for First Class and 61 inches for Business Class."

Boeing were hardly comparing apples with apples!!
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
Shame on Boeing for issuing such a silly advertisement.
Quoting Richard28 (Reply 3):
Boeing were hardly comparing apples with apples!!

They both do it. Airbus have released some doozers in their time too.
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Richard28
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):
They both do it. Airbus have released some doozers in their time too.

I'm sure thats true, but 39" seat pitch for long haul business class!!!?

has any airline got a J class product with this small a seat pitch in long haul?

[Edited 2013-08-07 13:50:57]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting evomutant (Reply 1):
The readers digest version is that its not misleading because nobody in the industry takes a blind bit of notice of such adverts.

I understand that OEMs do advertise to the public, although I have always wondered why. While some flyers do care what aircraft they are flying, most don't. It makes more sense to me that *airlines* advertise their fleet types to the public. "Fly United, we have the new 787 and you'll arrive feeling rested and relaxed!"

So why do the OEMs maintain so much public outreach?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):

Shame on Boeing for issuing such a silly advertisement.

I'm no fanboy but I disagree. All advertisements are a bit silly. So what? Did they say anything blatantly factually wrong? No.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
Shame on Airbus (to a lesser degree) for even commenting on such a silly advertisement.

Agreed. They have better things to be doing than swinging at pitches in the dirt.
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neutronstar73
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Even though these adverts are pretty ridiculous, it does make for some entertaining reading.

And even more so the comments by the respective employees of the companies, and by those on a.net.

It's just too bad they (Airbus and Boeing) are nowhere near as adept as these guys. Talk about great advertising:
http://brandmetta.com/add-off1/

And the print ads were similarly hilarious!

POST EDIT:

got this from AW&ST article referencing the ASA dismissal of Airbus' complaint:

"Given that the 747-8 is currently only operated by one passenger airline (Lufthansa), it is difficult to find independent operations data to verify the performance and cost claims made by Boeing and Airbus. However, one airline industry source with detailed inside knowledge of performance data for both aircraft on comparable routes and layout standards says there is hardly any unit cost difference between the 747-8 and the A380. Even so, that data does suggest a trip cost advantage for Boeing in excess of 20%, the official says. Unlike the unit cost figures, which appear to be off for both the Boeing and Airbus claims, the trip cost level would be relatively close to what Boeing markets for its largest aircraft."

[Edited 2013-08-07 14:15:41]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 5):

I'm sure thats true, but 39" seat pitch for long haul business class!!!?

has any airline got a J class product with this small a seat pitch in long haul?

It was the industry standard in 1988. Initial 747-400 deliveries averaged 40 inch business & 60 inch first seat pitch. SIN's 747-400s were originally delivered with 38'' pitch business class. When your airplane is as old as the 747, I guess it is ok to use some outdated standards when they make the product look good.
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kanban
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:36 pm

seat pitch is solely determined by the operator.. based on standard seat track strips.. while OEMs may talk about some ideal that supports ad campaigns, reality is never the same.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 7):
"Given that the 747-8 is currently only operated by one passenger airline (Lufthansa), it is difficult to find independent operations data to verify the performance and cost claims made by Boeing and Airbus. However, one airline industry source with detailed inside knowledge of performance data for both aircraft on comparable routes and layout standards says there is hardly any unit cost difference between the 747-8 and the A380. Even so, that data does suggest a trip cost advantage for Boeing in excess of 20%, the official says. Unlike the unit cost figures, which appear to be off for both the Boeing and Airbus claims, the trip cost level would be relatively close to what Boeing markets for its largest aircraft."

What do they mean by "unit cost" here?
 
Flighty
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:42 pm

The trip cost improvements are often not very dramatic. So, instead they cook up seat level, pseudo-quantitative advertising fluff. Their real mistake is feeding the fluff to actual airline planning audiences, who have no use for it. Other than the waste basket.

What really matter are cabin area and trip cost (including capital cost). That's it.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 10):
What do they mean by "unit cost" here?

Very roughly, it would have to be trip cost divided by cabin area (sq m). If the A380 has 20% more cabin, and costs 20% more to fly then unit costs are equal.

[Edited 2013-08-07 14:44:22]
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:39 pm

I'd say based upon the sales figures of the 747-800 the major passenger Airlines have already decided which is the best and most economic option on the market. That's probably the more illuminating standard of measurement rather than any marketing blurb.
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Thread starter):

Yes as you said airlines are working it out themselves, I did not see any win here for Boeing, they basically said no airline would use the numbers presented, it hardly endorsed what Boeing was using.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:17 pm

I just wonder why Boeing would make such claims. I guess I can kinda see why, but it's not like they'd be able to pull a fast one on carriers. They can say whatever they want, I'm sure Air France or whoever is gonna run their own numbers under their own configurations and determine what is best for them. The people that don't have those resources probably aren't buying a 747 or an A380.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 5):
I'm sure thats true, but 39" seat pitch for long haul business class!!!?

I believe nowadays that's called Domestic Economy Plus.  
Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
I'd say based upon the sales figures of the 747-800 the major passenger Airlines have already decided which is the best and most economic option on the market. That's probably the more illuminating standard of measurement rather than any marketing blurb.

I think the Boeing stuff is silly - why use such outdated cabin configurations? Having said that, I don't see how your assessment is any more "valid"? They use the numbers that they want to use, and you use the numbers that you want to use. In the end, it's about getting the outcome that you want.

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neutronstar73
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Yes as you said airlines are working it out themselves, I did not see any win here for Boeing, they basically said no airline would use the numbers presented

Umm, no that's not what the agency said. They said "We also considered [customers] were unlikely to make a purchase decision without seeking a great deal more information on the potential advantages of the [aircraft], based on their own specific requirements," it adds. "For these reasons we concluded that the [advertisement] was unlikely to mislead."

So an airline might rely on Boeing's numbers (or Airbus', for that matter) but most likely won't, since they all know the game.
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 16):

They still did not say they would use the information presented, they could have loaded the 748 with 560 seats in with 4 first class seats, and 6 j class seats and make statements that they carry more passengers in 3 class with lower fuel burn per seat. The statements are meaningless as they are not based upon real configurations.

Basically if Boeing wants to make a fool of itself in a trade publication, go for it. The seat pitch differences have been known for a long time, Airbus actually reduced the seat count on their marketing model to 525 seats to account for this. Lufthansa being the only airline to operate both have 526 seats in he A380, and 362 in the 747-8.

Now look at the cost per seat, Boeing claim in their model is costs the 747-8 $238600 to do the trip, with 362 seats, that is $658 per seat. They then claim the A380 trip cost is $62800 more (not that I agree with that), with 526 seats it is $572 per seat. The 747-8 has around 15% higher per seat cost in the LH configurations over that trip.

Nobody is buying the advertising claims.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
Shame on Airbus (to a lesser degree) for even commenting on such a silly advertisement.

Agree. Better to have left it alone rather than dignify it with a response.
And this is why.

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Yes as you said airlines are working it out themselves, I did not see any win here for Boeing, they basically said no airline would use the numbers presented, it hardly endorsed what Boeing was using.

Rgds
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15):
I think the Boeing stuff is silly - why use such outdated cabin configurations?

All of Boeing's ACAPs use these figures, so it could be for consistency across the various product lines. If they use the "outdated" figures for the 747-400 and "modern" figures for the 747-8, the 747-8 would seat less people even though it is a larger plane.

Now for knowledgeable folks like us, we understand why that is the case. But if you're some intern at a media outlet doing background data gathering and can't distinguish an A320 from an A380, a bigger plane seating less people is going to confuse the heck out of you. So by using consistent product numbers, Boeing can show a 747-8 is larger than a 747-400 even if no customer will ever use the 747-8 OEM configuration and no airline has used the 747-400 OEM configuration since the mid-1990s.

And as the UK Advertising Board noted, airlines use a blank cabin floorplan and put their own product in there, so it doesn't matter what type of cabin product dimensions the OEMs use because they're irrelevant to the customers.
 
Geo772
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:06 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 5):
I'm sure thats true, but 39" seat pitch for long haul business class!!!?

has any airline got a J class product with this small a seat pitch in long haul?

Kuwait Airways isn't far off, 61" F, 45" J and 32" Y.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
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neutrino
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):

I'd say based upon the sales figures of the 747-800 the major passenger Airlines have already decided which is the best and most economic option on the market. That's probably the more illuminating standard of measurement rather than any marketing blurb.

The more popular seller might not be the "best" product.
Look at the VHS vs Betamax and PC vs Mac marketplace wars for example.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
CXB77L
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:12 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
Lufthansa being the only airline to operate both have 526 seats in he A380, and 362 in the 747-8.

But they do not use a consistent product on board the A380 and the 747-8, and have a higher percentage of first and business class seats in their 747-8 than in the A380. It's still not an apples to apples comparison.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
Gingersnap
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting neutrino (Reply 21):

What is the best product is subjective to the needs of the customer and what they require. For this reason, any aircraft could be the "best" product with regard to what a customer needs. An airline like U2 for example would consider the A32X series to be the "best" product, whilst WN or FR would consider the 737 series the "best" for what they require.

Although as a personal side note, the PC is better than the Mac due to more extensive variability and the requirement to not spend over and above market value to have a decent system. But that's for another thread.
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KLAXAirport
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:28 am

To me it looks like the 748 is more popular with cargo airlines then passenger airlines. The 748 is just a new varient were as the 380 is a completely new aircraft. basically everybody already has 744's or 743's and thats enough. a need of a new varient isn't need right at the moment. Plus many airlines are still queing for there 380's meaning there are still a lot of orders to go, where as the 748 has less. But we'll just have to wait and see what the airlines deside.
 
waly777
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:49 am

This is interesting,

When Airbus made some interesting claims regarding the A330 being better than the 787 with regards to per seat costs (I can't remember the seat numbers used for that comparison)

or

the A350-1000 would be 25% better off than a 777W on a per seat basis..yet the 350-1000 was given 369 seats and the 777W 360 seats to achieve this claim, the same people criticising Boeing conveniently forgot to speak up against Airbus too.

It's all marketing at the end of the day, both manufacturers stretch the truth...though to what end exactly is beyond me as the people who buy the aircraft know the true capabilities.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
When Airbus made some interesting claims regarding the A330 being better than the 787 with regards to per seat costs (I can't remember the seat numbers used for that comparison)

I take it you mean this graphic, what is not correct about it when it was published ?

I take it you understand the A330 can lift more structural payload ?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/fleet%20planning/589a6d2d.png

N.B. It is not based upon 100% load factors.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
the A350-1000 would be 25% better off than a 777W on a per seat basis..yet the 350-1000 was given 369 seats and the 777W 360 seats to achieve this claim, the same people criticising Boeing conveniently forgot to speak up against Airbus too.

It was based upon 350 seats, slide 23

http://www.eads.com/dms/eads/int/en/...rther_pre_a350_xwb_launch_2006.pdf
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
fun2fly
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
It's all marketing at the end of the day, both manufacturers stretch the truth...though to what end exactly is beyond me as the people who buy the aircraft know the true capabilities.

That statement should end it all right there. Whatever is in print is meaningless as the general public is not going to run out and buy one. The airlines have some pretty high end analysts that take their own inputs: seat config, desired trip - airports, length, seasonality, etc. - and come up with what the costs mean to them. They are also viewing scenarios where airlines would take 3 772's on a route and turn them into 2 748's or 2 A380s vs. simply the A380 vs. the 748 which is the discussion here.

We all know that someone does not come in from reading a magazine in the john at XXairways and say "hey boss let's get a few of these because they read it has xx fuel burn."
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:45 pm

Wonder how much Boeing and Airbus pay for these ads that the ASA, in essence, says does not impact potential buyers.

Still interesting to see that Boeing's unit cost comparison is based on significantly different pitches between both aircraft. I wonder if they would have an issue if Airbus compared the A320 at 30 inch pitch and the 737 at 34 inch pitch....
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
All of Boeing's ACAPs use these figures, so it could be for consistency across the various product lines. If they use the "outdated" figures for the 747-400 and "modern" figures for the 747-8, the 747-8 would seat less people even though it is a larger plane.

My issue would come up when they compare it to a competitors product using a competitors standard seating configuration. At that point it becomes disengenuous at best.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 21):
The more popular seller might not be the "best" product.
Look at the VHS vs Betamax and PC vs Mac marketplace wars for example.

The A380 has clearly taken the VLA market. The contest isn't going to get any closer imho unless the A380 hits a major production snag somewhere. Were the 747-8i the better product, its doubtful that airlines would be turning their noses up to it. Note that "better" includes price.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
the same people criticising Boeing conveniently forgot to speak up against Airbus too.

While I get what you're saying, the reality is that there are always critics on a.net. You might feel that the fanboys were missing but more than likely it was just different people. I don't recall anything going unmentioned or uncriticized on here, though soemtimes its one group of fanboys doing the promoting and a different group of fanboys doing the slinging.

Just my two cents.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:06 pm

Well, the AW&ST comment is very enlightening: based on actual operation stats, the unit cost -- as actually flown at the same carrier -- is basically identical for the two aircraft.

That's actually good for Boeing, because it means there is no economy of scale for the larger aircraft. If you can fill the A380, it is money in the bank for you, but if the 748 is more the right-size for the route, you aren't losing anything on a per-pax-cost basis if you use it instead.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15):
They use the numbers that they want to use, and you use the numbers

No, I don't use any numbers at all. The airlines do. Their calculations and buying decisions not mine.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 21):
The more popular seller might not be the "best" product.
Look at the VHS vs Betamax and PC vs Mac marketplace wars for example.

But then again this is your own subjective assessment of "best". I'm not saying what's better. I'm saying the Airlines are deciding what is better (for them and their financials).
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:35 pm

If both aircraft were filled with economy passengers then you could fairly compare between the two. I believe that airbus would win that argument.
 
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PW100
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 22):
But they do not use a consistent product on board the A380 and the 747-8, and have a higher percentage of first and business class seats in their 747-8 than in the A380. It's still not an apples to apples comparison

I'd wager that there is (much) more product consistency in the LH A380-748 comparison, than in the Boeing A380-748 comparison. Although the LH case is indeed not a 100% apple to apple comparison, it is much closer than Boeing was using in their comparison between the two.

I'm waiting for an Airbus ad, where they put only 250 seats in a 748 . . .   
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astuteman
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
the A350-1000 would be 25% better off than a 777W on a per seat basis..yet the 350-1000 was given 369 seats and the 777W 360 seats to achieve this claim, the same people criticising Boeing conveniently forgot to speak up against Airbus too.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation if I may say so.
There are quite a few of us who work very hard to apply consistent logic to all of our arguments, whoever the manufacturer is. And many of the posters who've responded in this thread so far fall into that category as far as I can see.
There's no doubt there are some who fit the description you give.
But do you know what? This being A-net there are equally those who will behave the same way with a Boeing bias.
You conveniently forgot to mention them....  
Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
It's all marketing at the end of the day, both manufacturers stretch the truth...though to what end exactly is beyond me as the people who buy the aircraft know the true capabilities

Nailed it with this comment though.   

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):
While I get what you're saying, the reality is that there are always critics on a.net. You might feel that the fanboys were missing but more than likely it was just different people. I don't recall anything going unmentioned or uncriticized on here, though soemtimes its one group of fanboys doing the promoting and a different group of fanboys doing the slinging.

  

Rgds
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):

I mean they won this particular spat...but that kind of win doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't translate into sales...and since the airlines can see through the layers of bull droppings, it ends up being for nothing but PR noise.

It baffles me that either plane maker publically advertises at all...maybe it's a tax writeoff.

Regardless, I don't take any advertising claims by anybody, (Boeing, Airbus, laundry detergent, power tools, lettuce...anything), very seriously. Anybody who buys based on ads alone deserves what they get.

That being said, they can be very entertaining if treated like works of fiction.

As for the subject of fanboism...there's nothing wrong at all with rooting for a favourite. It only hurts credibility if one can't be even handed in comparisons. My favourite airliner of all time is the 727. I grew up flying on that beautiful thing...but is it the best today? I doubt it...except in the looks department...where it beats them all by a ton, and there's not even a close second....in my opinion.

Face it....we're all fanbois otherwise we wouldn't be on this site at all.
What the...?
 
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ssteve
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):

It baffles me that either plane maker publically advertises at all...maybe it's a tax writeoff.

Well, they could also paint the test airplanes plain white and give them terrible names like ZR49Q7X... but doing a minimum of general eyeball chasing seems reasonable.
 
707lvr
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:47 pm

At least the statistic that we've wanted to know in the first place, 121t vs 157t, seems not to be in dispute. So, for an equal number of pax, the old lady wins, and the youngster cuts into that with each added bag of mostly water.
 
evomutant
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:06 pm

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 38):
At least the statistic that we've wanted to know in the first place, 121t vs 157t, seems not to be in dispute. So, for an equal number of pax, the old lady wins, and the youngster cuts into that with each added bag of mostly water.

But it's a childish semantics game that has no bearing on real usage (and yes, Airbus do it too).

If you are carrying 2 people, a Ferrari 458 is more economical to run than a bus. The bus cuts into that with every extra person...
 
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 25):
It's all marketing at the end of the day, both manufacturers stretch the truth...though to what end exactly is beyond me as the people who buy the aircraft know the true capabilities.

And one could even add that A and B are very careful to make very truthful claims as they write up contracts with the various airlines, and very likely will specify what the various models will do for various routes. It is a mystery as to these 'ad' sorts of claims.
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 34):
I'm waiting for an Airbus ad, where they put only 250 seats in a 748 . . .

Hopefully you will wait in vain.

But should such a thing happen, then all A needs to do is to specify an 8,500 nm sector instead of the B picked 6,000 nm. Both planes would do that, but the 748i with a severe payload restriction (and possibly an extra belly fuel tank?) putting the seating capacity nearer the 250 figure than the 467 in the advert. (Something 300 to 350ish).

It just shows that they are two different planes, and not leveled competitors. In fact the nearest competitor to the 748i is hardly the A380, but rather the 773ER.
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 41):

Actually, the nearest compeitor for a 380, is a 380 from a competing airline. Will all that floor real estate be used for a few high profit first suites, or tons of Y, or three class...or 4? Airlines using the planes to compete on the same routes will probaby want to offer different products to stick out from the croud.

What the 380 offers better than any other aircraft are options.
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
I take it you mean this graphic, what is not correct about it when it was published ?

>>>> Politely refers to the Seat numbers used for both aircraft in that slide.

Qatar with a similarly configured aircraft seats 260 in the A332 & 254 in the 788 (despite the 787 having the new business class product with 80" seat pitch vs 60" in the A330).

China Southern seats 217 in a 3 class A332 and 228 in a 3-class 787......so yes, like i was saying earlier both manufacturers stretch the truth.

Your link isn't working but I do know for a fact that a 369 seat A350-1000 was used to make the 25% unit cost advantage.
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waly777
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):
While I get what you're saying, the reality is that there are always critics on a.net. You might feel that the fanboys were missing but more than likely it was just different people. I don't recall anything going unmentioned or uncriticized on here, though soemtimes its one group of fanboys doing the promoting and a different group of fanboys doing the slinging.

Oh I do agree that there are critics, but I find it interesting that certain people run to the front of the line when the opposing A or B camp does something and then are mysteriously silent when the supporting camp does the exact same thing.

I'd like to believe we're all adults on here and are capable of objective discussion.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 35):
That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation if I may say so.
There are quite a few of us who work very hard to apply consistent logic to all of our arguments, whoever the manufacturer is. And many of the posters who've responded in this thread so far fall into that category as far as I can see.

Unfortunately it is not a sweeping generalisation, i'm simply mentioning my observations. Yes, some people do try to be objective and I can acknowledge that.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 35):
You conveniently forgot to mention them....

Considering I was referring to this thread in particular, I did not forget to mention 'them'. When people do the same for Boeing, I speak up to0.

It is baffling that folks here are willing to make noise about an Ad that doesn't change anything regarding each aircraft's performance (which we are fully aware of) and will not affect the sales campaign of either manufacturer. My point is, if you're going to castigate one manufacturer, then be willing to do the same to the other who does the exact same thing.

Like I said, both manufacturers do the same thing and stretch the truth but I am pretty sure I haven't made any comments directly relating to an Ad that frankly doesn't change the fact regarding either aircraft's performance and certainly not about to start now as it is just an Ad and I take it for what it is.
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 43):
Qatar with a similarly configured aircraft seats 260 in the A332 & 254 in the 788 (despite the 787 having the new business class product with 80" seat pitch vs 60" in the A330).

China Southern seats 217 in a 3 class A332 and 228 in a 3-class 787......so yes, like i was saying earlier both manufacturers stretch the truth.

You chose airlines with 9 abreast in economy, Airbus was comparing 8 abreast like the 787 was originally marketed (please note Boeing used around 60" for first and 40" for business in this configuration). The fact the A332 lifts more payload I see is not in dispute.

http://theaviationspecialist.com/787-8_ia.gif

Quoting waly777 (Reply 43):
Your link isn't working but I do know for a fact that a 369 seat A350-1000 was used to make the 25% unit cost advantage.

Your "facts" are lies, since you are unable to follow the link, slide 23 is below. Again you will see they made clear the assumption it is 9 across in economy in this case.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/350xwb/Capture_zpsb7bc8472.png
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waly777
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
You chose airlines with 9 abreast in economy, Airbus was comparing 8 abreast like the 787 was originally marketed (please note Boeing used around 60" for first and 40" for business in this configuration). The fact the A332 lifts more payload I see is not in dispute

What Airbus was comparing isn't of particular concern to me. I was simply pointing out that in real world configurations, that slide and even figures as recent as last year from Airbus still suggest what that slide shows...when in reality pretty much all except ANA and JAL (who also have 9 abreast configs) use a 9 abreast config. Yes Boeing uses less seat pitch, however there are more seats in the premium classes than on Airbus using a higher seat pitch.

There is no dispute that the 332 lifts more payload, however this is like comparing the 77W to the 350-1000, the 777W will lift more payload....but more efficiently than the 350? definitely not.

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
Your "facts" are lies, since you are unable to follow the link, slide 23 is below. Again you will see they made clear the assumption it is 9 across in economy in this case.

Secondly my "facts are not lies", we do have the preliminary numbers and have crunched them. There is no way a 25% unit cost advantage exists btw a a 365 seat 77W and a 350 seat 350-1000.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...ng-minijumbo-idUSL5N0F829D20130703

With particular attention paid to this "Airbus's claim of a 25 percent per seat fuel advantage for the A350-1000 assumes a layout of 369 seats, rather than 350, and 360 seats for the 777-300ER, five fewer than advertised."

If you are in a position to, go ahead and request the numbers; if you know how to then crunch the numbers out for yourself on a few routes and see. The 350-1000 will be a phenomenal aircraft and will bring down unit costs by quite a large margin but nowhere near the 25% Airbus have stated.

[Edited 2013-08-08 22:10:34]
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 46):

The slide from Airbus was presented well before the first 787 entered service, it was presented back when Boeing was marketing the 787 with 8 across. Boeing was marketing the aircraft around 220-230 seats, this changed considerably during development.

The slide about the A350-1000 was presented back in 2006, if you google "A350 launch ppt" the first hit will be the presentation. They did not make the comparison as you can clearly see from the presentation with 369 seats.

I know where I work, the seat count difference between our 77W and A350-1000 is 3 seats using our exiting products, in both cases the number of seats installed are around 60 less the manufacturers marketing ongigurations. The A350-1000 burns about 1t per hour per engine less than the 77W, it basically burns less than today's A330-300. On a typical long haul sector the A350-1000 will take off with around 40t lower mass with the same passnger load, combination of lower empty weight, lower fuel load, and a shorter flight time. A large part of the recent per seat efficiency gains in the 787 and 77X come from increase in seat counts from 8 and 9 to 9 and 10 abreast respectively.

Not sure where you have crunched the numbers, however real airlines have, and real airlines that operate the 77W have already ordered the A350-1000.
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waly777
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:13 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
They did not make the comparison as you can clearly see from the presentation with 369 seats.

One little point, the slide doesn't mention what numbers the comparison is based on...it simply points to the three class configuration of each aircraft. You're assuming it is based on that, whilst I know for a fact that a 369 seat config was used to arrive at a 25% unit cost advantage and have directed you to a public source confirming this.

Anyway i'm not going to get into a back and forth, the numbers for each aircraft is known by the airlines and analysts. I am fully aware of what the 350-1000 will be capable of, but 25% unit cost advantage over a similarly configured 77W is a blatant lie as is the 747-8 having lower unit costs than the A380

Base point is both manufacturers stretch the truth with marketing and this does not in any way affect the capability of the advertised aircraft.

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
Not sure where you have crunched the numbers, however real airlines have, and real airlines that operate the 77W have already ordered the A350-1000.

In response to this, i'm not sure what your point is but 77W's are still being ordered today and yes indeed we have crunched the numbers in a real airline.
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tortugamon
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RE: Boeing Wins War Of Words...748 V. 380

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I understand that OEMs do advertise to the public, although I have always wondered why.

I think there is more going on than trying to sell airplanes to airlines. I think both sides take part in this war on words to generate patriotism/nationalism in their nation's/region's product. I personally hate it but if you aren't squarely in the middle on your view on each aircraft these types of wars push you to the side that you lean.

This is helpful to A & B when it comes to subsidies and protections and trade disputes and tax breaks and...Both sides are trying to convince the public because it is the public that votes and the politicians who decide weather or not to give incentives. And if they can convince a lazy airline that does not do the math for themselves, then great.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
I take it you mean this graphic

I love this graphic. When was the last time we had $2/gallon gas? A 24 seat difference is also not remote supportable. Hopefully we are all smart enough to see through all of this stuff going on on both sides.

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