Cathay Pacific To Announce New US Destination

crAAzy · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:15 am

Wow ... three class only. It this the only US flight where CX won't have F?

While it's wasn't a big secret and it's not the most exciting route given their presence in the NYC area already it does make the most sense when you consider they are opening up a new crew base in NY soon. However, another big congrats to them for their continued expansion in the US!

AF185 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:59 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 150):
Wow ... three class only

I am surprised no F, since EWR will be quite business O&D oriented for CX...

hz747300 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:59 am

Boring...

Seattle would have been better for me (yes, it is all about me--actually HKG-PHX would be much, much better), this route was already done on UA, and UA is cheaper and its product is not terrible even if their flight attendants are not the friendliest. UA is especially cheaper in biz class. Curious to see how this route does.

Will the A350 be able to do HKG-BOS nonstop?

a380787 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:19 am

just as I initially suspected, CX reserving F only for JFK side

AA767LOVER · Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:17 am

Yeah, EWR gets no respect.
I would have not have entirely ruled out BOS as there is quite a sizable Chinese population - BE SPECIFIC - not just Asian, but Chinese. 77W could easily do BOS-HKG nonstop or if you want a fifth freedom, throw in YYZ for measure. I'm quite sure American Eagle pax used to BOS-YYZ on RJs would be delighted to do BOS-YYZ on a 77W! I know I would!

MIA - For reasons already stated by others, the distance, cost opportunity, makes MIA unfeasible for the long haul. Arriving into MIA, how long would the plane have decent rest for? Where would they stop? YYZ is more likely than YVR. Shorter time layover, and shorter flying time would be more economical, but would take customers away from YYZ-MIA market on AA their oneworld partner. I would favor MIA if there actually a big enough demand.

SEA - Seriously, with the proximity to YVR, why would anyone consider flying SEA-HKG anyways? Is it much cheaper out of SEA than YVR? Also, the suggestion of a 343 frightens me. Worst econ seats. For a short hop from HKG-TPE is fine. But HKG-SEA is like saying, Gimme some hemmorhoids!

fun2fly · Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 149):
Daily 3-class 77W to EWR from 01MAR14.

CX890 HKG1700 - 2100EWR 77W D
CX899 EWR0150 - 0540+1HKG 77W D

http://airlineroute.net/2013/08/13/c...ar14/

Replacing one of the JFK flights or in addition to? Any JFK gauge changes as a result?

If it is an addtitional NYC flight, that's pretty impressive what CX has done in a short time in that market and AA and DL have to be shaking their heads for not starting one themselves and UA has to be upset they didn't add a 2nd or first class on the route. Marketshare leader is CX on that route!

NZ107 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:24 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 155):

Additional. No JFK flights are changing.

stlgph · Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:58 pm

and the destination is ........ Newark

oops already above.

nonetheless, nice addition to EWR

[Edited 2013-08-13 05:58:59]

adamh8297 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:35 pm

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 154):
I'm quite sure American Eagle pax used to BOS-YYZ on RJs would be delighted to do BOS-YYZ on a 77W! I know I would!

You could probably make a case to try a YVR tag-on for either BOS or MIA. YYZ would be a waste of a stop for an already well served market.

LAXintl · Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:09 pm

NYC - HKG sure going to be a busy market.

Between CX and UA, there will be 5 nonstops plus the 1 YVR one-stop

flyinghippo · Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting cha747 (Reply 146):
So have you been to Philadelphia's Chinatown or South Philly? The O & D for SE Asia connections are ginormous! The problem is that JFK has commanded this market. I'm sure bean counters have done the analysis, but I'm not going to be surprised if there is a PHL - SE Asia route sometime in the next 3-5 years. Who knew in 1989 that PHL would have such a robust transcon operation like it has today?!

Yes - I own a property there. It's peanuts when comparing to the Asian population in the tri-state area. Having a decent Asian population there is one thing, but having a good population that travels frequently is another, especially traveling in J and F, and Philly just doesn't have that.

This would give UA some BIG competition as CX's product (hard and soft) in all classes are superior than UA. People flying out of EWR surely welcomes another choice when flying to HKG.

chrisnh · Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:27 pm

Lots of deserved caterwauling about Newark winning this 'contest,' which had to be the most underwhelming outcome of all. A week-long contest is the right thing to do if people will say 'Wow!' at the end of it. But Newark? Yawn. Might have just as well announced it and be done.

Now, if Newark wins the first one-way nonstop to Mars, we'll all say "Wow! About time someone sent them packing!"

N62NA · Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 150):
Wow ... three class only. It this the only US flight where CX won't have F?

Quoting AF185 (Reply 151):

I am surprised no F, since EWR will be quite business O&D oriented for CX...

Quoting a380787 (Reply 153):
just as I initially suspected, CX reserving F only for JFK side

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 154):
Yeah, EWR gets no respect.

To all of the above I quoted.

This is just another example of how EWR is NOT a "premium airport" despite what a contingent on here argues. It simply isn't, thanks to UA keeping it cattle class.

It makes no sense to me how New Jersey, which is full of fortune 500 companies, doesn't rate F / premium services. I understand that hardly anyone living east of the Hudson river would prefer to use LGA/JFK, but that leaves at least a third of the NYC metro area underserved. I understand WHY things are the way they are (because of UA and legacy carrier decades old opinion of EWR as NOT a NYC airport). But I shake my head everytime another opportunity to bring EWR closer to par with JFK is missed.

wedgetail737 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 154):
SEA - Seriously, with the proximity to YVR, why would anyone consider flying SEA-HKG anyways? Is it much cheaper out of SEA than YVR? Also, the suggestion of a 343 frightens me. Worst econ seats. For a short hop from HKG-TPE is fine. But HKG-SEA is like saying, Gimme some hemmorhoids!

Actually yes...it probably would be significantly cheaper than YVR, considering all of the taxes the Canadians have to pay just of fly from point A to point B. SEA-HKG is most likely sustainable, but more with a smaller widebody like the A350 or 787. The 777-300ER or A340-300 would be more appropriate during the summer peak months...similar to what NH does on the SEA-NRT route.

I think we'll eventually find DL flying the SEA-HKG route with an A330-200. I don't think the 767-300ER has the legs for that flight. It could be a 777-200ER/LR.

Also, room at SEA's S-concourse during the peak international flight times is at a premium. The future shows an additional 4 or 5 gates in the A-Concourse allocated for international flights, but that's a bit down the road. I do think as more 787's and eventually A350's enter passenger service, I think SEA will see more and more international service over the next decade. That includes flights from south of the equator.

As much as CX's announcement for HKG-EWR was writing on the wall, I wanted to give SEA a little glimmer of hope for an earlier inauguration...kind of like NH's SEA-NRT route.

CX...SEA hopes to see you sooner rather than later!

airbazar · Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 151):
I am surprised no F, since EWR will be quite business O&D oriented for CX...

Most businesses do not allow F class. It makes sense.

STT757 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 162):
It makes no sense to me how New Jersey, which is full of fortune 500 companies, doesn't rate F / premium services.

Because most businesses use business class?..

SQ's EWR-SIN flight, which this sort of replaces, was all business class. Openskies which operates from EWR also is all business.

a380787 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 162):
It makes no sense to me how New Jersey, which is full of fortune 500 companies, doesn't rate F / premium services.

Not just NJ - F is a rare dying breed

Between NYC (largest city in north america) and Tokyo (largest city in the world), we have (in terms of F seats) :

8 seats on JAL
16 seats on ANA (2x daily)
0 seats on DL
0 seats on UA
16 seats on AA going to HND (lord knows how they're filling those)

On the best day, you have 40 paid F seats between 2 of the largest GDP cities in the world.

N62NA · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 164):
Most businesses do not allow F class. It makes sense.

I'm sorry (for those that don't live in the NYC area and are not familiar with the market). I should have been more explicit.

New Jersey has some of the wealthiest counties in the country. Wealthy people live there. Just like wealthy people live in Manhattan, on Long Island and in Westchester County and CT who all use JFK because it is more convenient for them than EWR.

The wealthy people in New Jersey would have to trek over to JFK if they want "premium service" on flights to LAX/SFO, or if they want to fly in an F cabin on most intercontinental routes because there is no F offered at EWR. If one wasn't aware of the history at EWR with respect to how airlines view EWR (as "second class" in the NYC market), then it would be puzzling as to why this very affluent market is denied F.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 165):
Because most businesses use business class?..

SQ's EWR-SIN flight, which this sort of replaces, was all business class. Openskies which operates from EWR also is all business.

Thanks for trying to lead us on a tangent, but my comment was not about Business Class, it was about First Class and the lack of it at EWR.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 166):
Not just NJ - F is a rare dying breed

It doesn't seem to be dying over at JFK. In fact, seems like it is being reborn with the new AA F product to LAX/SFO.

How does one explain the fact that EWR is the ONLY U.S. airport served by CX without F when CX isn't moving to cut F from any of the other U.S. airports they serve?

a380787 · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 167):
It doesn't seem to be dying over at JFK. In fact, seems like it is being reborn with the new AA F product to LAX/SFO.

AA is also planning to cut F from their entire 772ER fleet when refurbs are scheduled, which will be many of their European and Latin American services out of JFK

airbazar · Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 167):
New Jersey has some of the wealthiest counties in the country. Wealthy people live there. Just like wealthy people live in Manhattan, on Long Island and in Westchester County and CT who all use JFK because it is more convenient for them than EWR.

It may very well be the case but they're not paying for it or there would be more than this:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 166):
On the best day, you have 40 paid F seats between 2 of the largest GDP cities in the world.

Way too few F class seats even from JFK. I think CX knows what they're doing. Besides, if you're a NJ resident most like you're flying UA, not CX.

N62NA · Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 168):
AA is also planning to cut F from their entire 772ER fleet when refurbs are scheduled, which will be many of their European and Latin American services out of JFK

AA is using the 77W on JFK-LHR and JFK-GRU, so F will remain on those important international routes and likely will expand use of the 77W out of JFK. So F will remain an offering from AA ex-JFK intercontinental flights.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 169):
Way too few F class seats even from JFK. I think CX knows what they're doing. Besides, if you're a NJ resident most like you're flying UA, not CX

And you're flying UA because they are the only game in town, and now CX comes into one of the UA markets and what do they do? They offer the same lack of F that UA does out of EWR. Very disappointing.

flyinghippo · Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 170):
And you're flying UA because they are the only game in town, and now CX comes into one of the UA markets and what do they do? They offer the same lack of F that UA does out of EWR. Very disappointing.

But I consider CX's J class a step above UA's J class, so people flying out of EWR to HKG will have a second (better, IMHO) premium service to choose from.

N62NA · Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting flyinghippo (Reply 171):
But I consider CX's J class a step above UA's J class, so people flying out of EWR to HKG will have a second (better, IMHO) premium service to choose from.

No doubt it is an improvement over what EWR users had to choose from. But why does the airport serving the western half of the NYC metro area not rate an F cabin from CX when CX offers an F cabin on their flights from the airport serving the eastern half of the NYC metro area?

zeke · Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 172):

If they can fill the seats they will be offered, if not, they will not be offered. CX is not a charity, it cannot put on F class seats with the hope someone maybe able to pay the return F class fare. Overbooking in J and free F class upgrades makes no business sense, nor does it make sense to have empty seats.

And this is not the F class that is seen domestically, CX would call that premium economy.

flythere · Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):
I'm surprised DFW isn't being mentioned, being a major base of its OW alliance partner, AA. Flying to DFW would also plug into AA's network from there to Florida.

DFW would be the next one on CX's plan I would assume.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 23):
After losing AF, AZ, LO, QR, BR, MH, and SQ

Yes, you got the point! Not just SQ but also BR moving to JFK and MH withdrawn from US.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
A new city pair with daily 77W is services is a significant investment by the time 3 airframes, crews, ground service contracts etc are all in place. Now any company wanting to invest that sort of cash will want to see 10+% return on their investment, if they do not get that return, they may as well just invest the cash without having the risk exposure.

Very well-said. Starting a new intercontinental pair is really a huge investment, spare parts for the plane might be stored and a station manager/engineer had to be hired, etc. etc. But the synergy that bring in with the existing operations in JFK is just an icing on a cake for CX.

Quoting CX711 (Reply 126):
What about accessing MIA from Europe? I believe CX was granted rights to fly LHR to JFK which it never exercised, probably for commercial reasons.

I believe there is no point of serving MIA with one-stop given if CX's intention for MIA as a jumpboard to Latin America. There are plenty of existing one-stop options from HKG(or other East Asia cities) - Europe/MiddleEast - Latam.

[Edited 2013-08-13 20:29:53]

DolphinAir747 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:40 am

Wow, a great addition to EWR! Maybe we should consider changing the title of this thread or creating a new one.

STT757 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:53 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 175):
Wow, a great addition to EWR! Maybe we should consider changing the title of this thread or creating a new one.

Indeed, EWR has had an interesting history with Asian carriers:

Singapore Air (mid '90s to present)
Started out with a daily 744 via AMS to SIN, later switched to an all Business class A340-500.

Korean Air (mid-'90s through 2001 or 2002)
Daily 744 to Seoul via BOS

Malaysian (late '90s through ?..)
Originally through Dubai with a 772, then they changed the stop over before dropping the route.

Phillipines Air ('90s through?..)

EVA (mid '90s through 2012)
Originally a 744 via YVR, then nonstop 77W

Cathy Pacific 2014

I think I'm forgetting one?..

wedgetail737 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 176):
EVA (mid '90s through 2012)
Originally a 744 via YVR, then nonstop 77W

This route was through SEA, not YVR.

EWRandMDW · Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 176):
Daily 744 to Seoul via BOS

I think this flight made a technical stop in ANC. To my knowledge, KE has never served BOS.

adamh8297 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 178):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 176):
Daily 744 to Seoul via BOS

I think this flight made a technical stop in ANC. To my knowledge, KE has never served BOS.

Though the BOS Seoul fight was this triangle route SEL-BOS-IAD-SEL

N62NA · Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 173):
If they can fill the seats they will be offered, if not, they will not be offered. CX is not a charity, it cannot put on F class seats with the hope someone maybe able to pay the return F class fare.

And where is the evidence that CX hasn't got enough paid F pax on EWR-HKG? They didn't even attempt EWR with an F cabin!

superjeff · Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):
I'm surprised DFW isn't being mentioned, being a major base of its OW alliance partner, AA. Flying to DFW would also plug into AA's network from there to Florida.

Very true, especially since CX has some freight service at DFW, and since Qantas' route to BNE/SYD has been very successful.

tsnamm · Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:00 pm

I think a big question is how will this affect UA's EWR/HKG service?Could possibly become a 787 market perhaps?

STT757 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 182):
I think a big question is how will this affect UA's EWR/HKG service?Could possibly become a 787 market perhaps?

UA will eventually deploy either the 787-9 or A350-1000 on EWR-HKG.

tsnamm · Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 183):
UA will eventually deploy either the 787-9 or A350-1000 on EWR-HKG.

or bail out entirely ala EWR/IST?

STT757 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 184):

or bail out entirely ala EWR/IST?

They, through CO, have been on the route for 15 years. I think Hong Kong is more important to UA than IST which didn't last a year.

fun2fly · Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 183):
UA will eventually deploy either the 787-9 or A350-1000 on EWR-HKG.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 185):
They, through CO, have been on the route for 15 years. I think Hong Kong is more important to UA than IST which didn't last a year.

I thought there was discussion of 2x daily when the 788's came online in the CO years due to BF demand. Probably a good example of where the delay of the 788 allowed a competitor to move into their market? for this long of a route, makes sense to get one of the new gen a/c on it in short order to save fuel $.

STT757 · Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 186):
makes sense to get one of the new gen a/c on it in short order to save fuel $.

Not just the fuel savings, the passengers will benefit from higher humidity, lower pressure and noise. That should help after 16 hours.

CX Flyboy · Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 180):
Quoting zeke (Reply 173):
If they can fill the seats they will be offered, if not, they will not be offered. CX is not a charity, it cannot put on F class seats with the hope someone maybe able to pay the return F class fare.

And where is the evidence that CX hasn't got enough paid F pax on EWR-HKG? They didn't even attempt EWR with an F cabin!

There is actually considerable market research done prior to launching a flight. Airlines like Cathay do not just "try it and see". They have determined that the 3-class approach is better for EWR. Remember, that the 3 class seating is 340pax vs 275 only for the 4-class 77Ws. Thats a lot of extra seats and they must have determined that the 3-class plane was more appropriate.

N62NA · Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 188):
There is actually considerable market research done prior to launching a flight. Airlines like Cathay do not just "try it and see". They have determined that the 3-class approach is better for EWR. Remember, that the 3 class seating is 340pax vs 275 only for the 4-class 77Ws. Thats a lot of extra seats and they must have determined that the 3-class plane was more appropriate.

Thanks for the reply, though it is sad that EWRt is the only airport served by CX in the USA that doesn't rate a First Class cabin.

RyanairGuru · Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 167):
How does one explain the fact that EWR is the ONLY U.S. airport served by CX without F when CX isn't moving to cut F from any of the other U.S. airports they serve?

To be fair, most of the outbound premium traffic from New Jersey will probably fly UA due to being locked in through MileagePlus, corporate contracts etc. Inbound premium traffic HKG-NYC will be more skewed to JFK, due to broader global recognition as an "NYC" airport.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a market for CX at EWR, but I'm not sure that F would be the right product on this route.

What's more, as pointed out up-thread, there is a global shift away from F. That is a fact. The USA is, arguably, behind the ball on that, although the US carriers approach to F is different. In most other parts of the world carriers (including CX) don't upgrade passengers unless absolutely necessary (i.e. overbooking) because it devalues the premium product.

jfkgig · Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 179):
Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 178):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 176):
Daily 744 to Seoul via BOS

I think this flight made a technical stop in ANC. To my knowledge, KE has never served BOS.

Though the BOS Seoul fight was this triangle route SEL-BOS-IAD-SEL

I recall being on a KE flight around 2001 that went EWR-ORD-SEL.

a380787 · Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:56 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 189):
Thanks for the reply, though it is sad that EWRt is the only airport served by CX in the USA that doesn't rate a First Class cabin.

If CX ever opens up HKG-SEA, you can bet your car and house that it won't have F either.

The F traffic of NJ (i'm guessing the pharmaceuticals) aren't exactly HKG-bound since HKG has never been a major pharm center.

But I blame a lot of people's perception on their branding too. Instead of calling it "New York EWR" they brand themselves as "Liberty International" ... and forgot that many international pax aren't smart enough to associate "Newark NJ" as part of NYC metro.

anrec80 · Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 192):
But I blame a lot of people's perception on their branding too. Instead of calling it "New York EWR" they brand themselves as "Liberty International" ... and forgot that many international pax aren't smart enough to associate "Newark NJ" as part of NYC metro.

When a pax wants Y fare to NYC for $20 less, don't underestimate their ability to realize that.

Flightsimboy · Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:43 am

It's EWR.... The official announcement is on their website

Posted here

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5851257/

LAXintl · Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 194):
It's EWR.... The official announcement is on their website

Yes, welcome to the party. This was announced already one-week ago...

See discussions above..

Flightsimboy · Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 195):
Yes, welcome to the party. This was announced already one-week ago...

See discussions above..

A bit of a late arrival to the party...I had been following it and looks like I fell of the bus lol.....well EWR it is

BOACCunard · Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:29 am

Meanwhile, DL has announced SEA-HKG. Of course, it is on an A332 which is considerably smaller than anything CX has or probably ever will have.

STT757 · Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 197):
Meanwhile, DL has announced SEA-HKG. Of course, it is on an A332 which is considerably smaller than anything CX has or probably ever will have.

If CX wants to open up HKG-SEA I don't think DL would slow their plans down.

Viscount724 · Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 197):
Meanwhile, DL has announced SEA-HKG. Of course, it is on an A332 which is considerably smaller than anything CX has or probably ever will have.

But not much smaller in total seats compared to CX longhaul 3-class A333s which Seatguru shows have 242 seats. DL A332s have either 239 (old configuration) or 234 (new configuration), a difference of only 3 to 8 seats.

I realize CX wouldn't use the A333 on SEA-HKG.

[Edited 2013-08-22 15:26:40]

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