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KarlB737
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:41 pm

The ABC affiliate is maintaining live coverage here:

Courtesy: WBMA-TV

http://www.abc3340.com/story/21985714/watch-abc-3340-breaking
 
xjet
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):

In some places an ILS is simply impossible due to the fact that they are line-of-sight radio transmitters. If an ILS is available I would say 99% of the time it is used to backup the visual approach. If there is no ILS most aircraft have the ability to use a computer generated path. The planes I fly were built in the early 80s and we have that capability and use it on every flight.

One of these days ILS systems will be replaced by precision GPS approaches. I think since the Asiana crash there is a large focus on ILS systems. Personally, I see no shortage of navigational aids that are available to pilots flying int he US airspace system. Having said that, I understand the reasons we are discussing it more often.
 
TwoSixLeft
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:47 pm

How devastating for the families of the crew. I hope they are able to find support and some small comfort during this difficult time.

Quoting as77w (Reply 111):
AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/14/302328...rgo-jet-crashes-in-birmingham.html

I'm always hesitant to accept the "earwitness" accounts of an accident, especially in the immediate aftermath. It is so easy to make oneself believe that any sound was really a sign of impending disaster. I certainly made a very similar mistake in my pre-avgeek days.
NX37602. "Well, the airplane seems to be fairly successful."
 
BWI5OH
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:50 pm

Tragic indeed. In cases like these, I always think about their families and last co-workers who said "have a safe flight" or "See you next time", but there is no next time. I think about the hurt they must feel. I have a friend who works at UPS/SDF in MX, so I know this has to weigh heavy on his conscience. God bless their souls and may they rest in peace. I hope their family, friends and co-workers can find calm in thier lives one day.
"It's all fun and games until the cops show up"
 
winstonlegthigh
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

That usually means investigators can safely rule out the plane being on fire before crashing.
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
 
Avi8r747
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:54 pm

A sad day for UPSers. May the crew find peace. I am just thankful it wasn't my family member flying.
 
PHX787
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:54 pm

That looks brutal   Not a good summer for the transportation industry at all....prayers to those on board and condolences to their families.
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apfpilot
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting as77w (Reply 111):
AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

That is almost always found to be false.

Quoting xjet (Reply 114):

One of these days ILS systems will be replaced by precision GPS approaches. I think since the Asiana crash there is a large focus on ILS systems. Personally, I see no shortage of navigational aids that are available to pilots flying int he US airspace system. Having said that, I understand the reasons we are discussing it more often.

LPV approaches are the best.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
crazyro
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:58 pm

Here's a photo James Spann posted on Facebook of the crash site. Photo by @lcomarde

 
Mir
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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 89):
Just my personal opinion, but I think the flightaware tracks are absolutely not reliable in this situations.

   Especially the altitude readouts in a climb or descent.

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
What is the downside of requiring ILS approach if available? Serious question. Reduced throughput through elimination of dual runway ops?

Reduced flexibility and capacity.

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
Could you require use of ILS approach while maintaining visual separation rules in VFR conditions?

You could require the crew back up a visual approach with ILS data, and many operators (including mine) do. That at least gives you glidepath information even if you're not flying the ILS groundtrack all the way in (you'll join it eventually, but probably closer in than you would on an actual ILS approach).

I would add, though, that such a requirement has its origins as a means to avoid aligning with the wrong runway at an airport, not as a glidepath aid.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
spacecadet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 92):
Flightradar24 was reporting the same thing. Plus look at OZ 214, that track was pretty accurate.

My understanding (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if it was using a mode S transponder and being tracked by someone with a mode S receiver, then altitude and vertical speed info on Flightradar 24 should be very accurate, and "realtime" (I'm sure there's still a tiny delay). This is the same info the air traffic controllers would have, and they have it specifically to help avoid accidents.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

So who knows!  

Who knows, yeah, but at this point those accounts mean precisely zero. The NTSB interviews a lot of people and only gives credence to eyewitness accounts if there's a pattern, and it agrees with physical evidence. Early eyewitnesses you see on TV almost always report fire and "sputtering" either because their memory's faulty or because they just want to be on TV. More often than not, someone who genuinely believes they saw fire actually saw the airplane's landing lights (at least, that ends up being the only explanation, because usually there was no fire).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
jreuschl
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:11 pm

What kind of flight schedules do UPS pilots have? Do they fly the previous evening into SDF, hang around, then fly again to another airport?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:11 pm

Hope this was not the Onboard carried Cargo causing it.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tp1040
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:14 pm

Terrible event for the people involved. The photos show tremendous damage to the cockpit, even though it "appears" intact.

They also show a lot of impact damage to power lines and trees. The elevation seems to be much lower and well short of the hill that the fuselage is resting.
 
crazyro
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:18 pm

 
comorin
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 114):
Hope this was not the Onboard carried Cargo causing it.

Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 114):
The elevation seems to be much lower and well short of the hill that the fuselage is resting.

Picture 7 of this slideshow shows how low the aircraft must have been when you see the impact.

http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=1

[Edited 2013-08-14 08:26:20]
 
dispatcher
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Wow, these guys were clipping power lines almost a mile from the approach end of the runway.
 
olliejolly
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Very sad to hear this...
Those images look pretty awful.
 
tp1040
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:27 pm

Looking at a Google image of BHM, 18 looks to be rarely used. Maybe it is used more for GA.

Could the pilots had a situation where they had to use 18? Was 6/24 closed?
 
planespotting
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
What kind of flight schedules do UPS pilots have? Do they fly the previous evening into SDF, hang around, then fly again to another airport?

According to flightaware, the aircraft originated in Mexico City and landed at SDF a little after 1 a.m. I would imagine this particular crew either flew in from a different outstation ahead of the accident flight or started their day with the BHM flight. Since SDF is the only pilot base for the A306, if they didn't start at an outstation they would have began their trip in Louisville at some point during the night prior to the accident flight.
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kc135topboom
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:45 pm

UPS A-306F, N155UP.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/14...r-alabama-airport/?test=latestnews

Unfortunately both pilots did not survive. Since the nose and forward fuselage broke off and skidded away from the main wreckage, and was not on fire, I can only assume they died from impact injuries, or they were dead before the crash.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:53 pm

Eye witness reports, particularly when properly interpreted by expert investigators have been and are invaluable. All the good witness needs do is remember what they saw, and leave interpretations to investigators and a-netters.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
UA787DEN
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:55 pm

A300F4-622R, CN 851, PW4158s. Barely 10 years old.
According to flightaware it dropped from 30,000' in just over 15 minutes. Quite varied too. At one point was doing 2,000'-3,000' Vertical Feet per minute, by the end only 600.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 121):
if they didn't start at an outstation they would have began their trip in Louisville at some point during the night prior to the accident flight.

Would MEX-SDF-BHM be too long on the clock time? I know SDF-BHM is pretty short but what about MEX-SDF?

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing./quote]
They might have. Anyone got the transcripts?

[quote=tp1040,reply=120]Could the pilots had a situation where they had to use 18? Was 6/24 closed?

It looks like they were making about 175 degrees heading until right near the end when they turned to around 235. Trying to avoid stuff on the ground or a last ditch attempt to put it on 24? Or out of control?
 
mcoatc
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:59 pm

Firstly, my condolences to the crew and their families. As others have already said, this has not been a great run for commercial aviation over the last year or so, and today things have obviously gotten worse.

My question here is in relation to runway in use. I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

Clearly, 18 would not have been requested by the crew, and the METAR wind at the time certainly did not seem to require it. Was 24 undergoing maintenance? Was the weather some have speculated in the area a factor?

The reason that I ask is because if 6/24 was closed on short notice, unexpectedly (FOD found, asphalt failure), you may have a situation where an otherwise stellar crew suddenly had an approach that no one had planned on shooting. While that in and of itself should not be deadly, add fatigue to the mix and it's possible.....possible.....something was not programmed/set up/briefed properly and we are looking at the resulting undershoot.

And, it may have absolutely nothing to do with this at all. Anyone from BHM or with local knowledge that can speculate?
 
gulfstream650
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:04 pm

I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
 
spacecadet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:30 pm

Just saw someone on TV (possibly the mayor of whatever town this happened in?) saying that initially they thought the debris field was contained but that now they have reports of damage and debris to several houses nearby. Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
UA787DEN
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 127):
Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.

Reports are saying debris was spread over a half-mile away from the crash site through residential areas in Birmingham.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 126):
3 hrs 32 mins

Thanks! So though its unlikely the crew did MEX-SDF-BHM, they could've. (Or a crew could've done SDF-MEX-SDF, though that might be getting tight if in-air delays.)
 
Western727
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.

I wonder about this, too. I don't see any posts above about LiveATC.net. Has anyone had the chance to find and listen to the crew's radio contact with the ground? I'm deaf...hence my inquiry. Thanks in advance.
Jack @ AUS
 
planespotting
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):
I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

The route of flight was basically due south from SDF (so almost directly aligned with the runway). Also, there was little to no wind to speak of at the time of landing, or any reason to even conduct an instrument approach. The crew should have been able to see the runway coming out of 7500 feet (METAR said OVC075), with minimal cloud interference beyond that (also said SCT010). So there was no technical need to fly a precision approach.

Now, talk to a flight instructor or someone else doing primary training, or take a human factors class, and they'd probably tell you that flying in the middle of the night during prime fatigue hours might necesitate a few additional safety considerations to ensure safe completion of the flight, including using a precision approach.

However, these guys were pros, and flying (and landing) in the middle of the night is their bread and butter. I'm not going to second guess their decision to take the straight in visual or LOC approach to 18.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
UA787DEN
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 129):
I don't see any posts above about LiveATC.net

BHM isn't up on liveATC as far as I can tell and Atlanta Center has been down for a month. Checking Memphis and Indy...
 
apfpilot
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 111):

My understanding (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if it was using a mode S transponder and being tracked by someone with a mode S receiver, then altitude and vertical speed info on Flightradar 24 should be very accurate, and "realtime" (I'm sure there's still a tiny delay). This is the same info the air traffic controllers would have, and they have it specifically to help avoid accidents.

That is correct Flightradar uses ADS-B derived data for quite a few of the airplanes. ADS-B gets position information from the GPS and is very accurate.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
spacecadet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 128):
Reports are saying debris was spread over a half-mile away from the crash site through residential areas in Birmingham.

But "away" in which direction? Was it debris scattered from the impact or was it debris falling from the plane as it descended? That's what I don't have a sense of.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
xjet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):

These are all great questions. There was work going on north of runway that has had the glideslope on runway 24 out of service since the 2nd of August. I think it is some trenching being done. It's possible that 24 was unavailable at the time, although I didn't see a NOTAM. That said, short term runway occupation by men and equipment don't always require a NOTAM if it will only make the runway unavailable short term.

There was weather to the west, but I don't think it was close enough to have affected the arrival. I hate to speculate but the only logical thought I have had is that the crew needed the plane on the ground quickly for some reason....

[Edited 2013-08-14 09:53:04]

[Edited 2013-08-14 09:57:40]
 
UA787DEN
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 133):
But "away" in which direction? Was it debris scattered from the impact or was it debris falling from the plane as it descended? That's what I don't have a sense of.

I imagine some from the clipping of trees and power lines but I don't know if some else fell.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 90):
Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?

before you say more perhaps you might investigate the causes and see what the crew may have been up against.
 
4holer
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 127):
Just saw someone on TV (possibly the mayor of whatever town this happened in?) saying that initially they thought the debris field was contained but that now they have reports of damage and debris to several houses nearby. Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.

Well there is a house very close to slide 11 of this slideshow of trees clipped:
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=11
(from)
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 117):
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=1

Which is located here on Google, which you can navigate up and around from... http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tarran...f16rvxyA&cbp=12,300.27,,0,2.13



[Edited 2013-08-14 10:00:02]

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:02:20]
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
AA777
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 122):
I can only assume they died from impact injuries, or they were dead before the crash.

RIP to the crew.

...The fuselage being intact the way it is wouldnt support, to me, the idea of a nose-first impact due to pilots being incapacitated... though I suppose the plane could have hit belly first like AF447 did.

Very sad. I hope they find answers soon.

-AA777
 
xjet
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 136):

Yup... How many non-normal checklists end with "Land at the nearest suitable airport"?
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.

I don't know they didn't. There isn't a ATC release of information that I know of.

My theory is still that there was a fire on board or some other mechanical failure they were working with. A 25,000 foot drop in 12 minutes is a very fast descent and I trust the FlightAware data enough on that to think that is significant.

Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18. And if winds were so minimal that it didn't matter which runway, they probably would have chosen 24 - like they did the day before.

Something was wrong, really wrong.

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:01:46]
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 140):
Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18. And if winds were so minimal that it didn't matter which runway, they probably would have chosen 24 - like they did the day before.

If it's within limits and it would save you time, why not take 18 when coming from the north, rather than getting vectored around for 24?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Western727
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:08 pm

This one is saying there was no distress call from the crew:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...ane-crash-20130814,0,7674571.story

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 140):
Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18.

Yes, but 4 kts. 4 kts of tailwinds on a 7,100' rwy, I would think, is easy to do with an A300. Still:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):
My question here is in relation to runway in use. I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

So...I'm inclined to agree with suseJ772 in speculating that something was wrong.
Jack @ AUS
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 141):
If it's within limits and it would save you time, why not take 18 when coming from the north, rather than getting vectored around for 24?


Because...
  1. The vector is very minimal (see: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../history/20130813/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM)
  2. Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
  3. Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
  4. Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
  5. And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Western727
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting audioace87 (Reply 86):
I'm surprised they were landing on 18... Having spotted at BHM for a while seems like all I ever saw landing on 18/36 was GA traffic. Otherwise it was landing and taking off from 6/24...
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

Thanks, folks. Starting to look (to me, anyway) like something was indeed wrong.
Jack @ AUS
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
Because...
The vector is very minimal (see: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../history/20130813/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM)
Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

I was just throwing out a suggestion as to why they used 18, not saying why they did. Unless you're a UPS pilot, I doubt you can answer if most of what you allege is true for this operation.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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enilria
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting xjet (Reply 102):
In some places an ILS is simply impossible due to the fact that they are line-of-sight radio transmitters. If an ILS is available I would say 99% of the time it is used to backup the visual approach. If there is no ILS most aircraft have the ability to use a computer generated path. The planes I fly were built in the early 80s and we have that capability and use it on every flight.
Quoting Mir (Reply 110):
Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
Could you require use of ILS approach while maintaining visual separation rules in VFR conditions?

You could require the crew back up a visual approach with ILS data, and many operators (including mine) do. That at least gives you glidepath information even if you're not flying the ILS groundtrack all the way in (you'll join it eventually, but probably closer in than you would on an actual ILS approach).

I would add, though, that such a requirement has its origins as a means to avoid aligning with the wrong runway at an airport, not as a glidepath aid.

So, I'll restate my question. What is so bad about what Mir's company is doing except require it? You require pilots use a precision approach solution, if available, in VFR conditions while maintaining visual separation rules?

Interesting bit of trivia, but that doesn't make it a bad idea does it?
 
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1002
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 142):
This one is saying there was no distress call from the crew:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...story

I'll hold off on that since the quote is attributed to a spokesman for the mayor. If the NTSB were saying that, I might take it a little more seriously.

Also, it says no distress call was made to the tower, not to Atlanta Center. Yes, I usually know Departure/Arrival/Center would then coordinate with Tower, but there could have been some miscommunication, or someone wasn't at there post when they should have been, etc...

Also, if the issue were more mechanical, there could have been something preventing the call, or they were on the wrong frequency (which was an issue with UPS 6 because of the smoke). So I don't think the "no-call" at this time detracts too much from my current theory, but it is interesting.
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1002
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 145):
I was just throwing out a suggestion as to why they used 18, not saying why they did. Unless you're a UPS pilot, I doubt you can answer if most of what you allege is true for this operation.

Three out of my five reasons have nothing to do with UPS. That being said, I wasn't saying your opinion wasn't valid, just explaining why I thought it was unusual. Particularly reason #5 would go with your logic (of saving time) to use 24 - regardless of UPS SOP.

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:28:27]
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flyingturtle
Posts: 5916
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:28 pm

To

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 136):

and others:

I just found it a strange coincident that in the past four years, six widebodies have crashed - for different reasons, of course. Somehow this hasn't happened in the years before.

I know that the reasons for the crashes are different, and that three of them can be attributed to pilot error - with a higher or lower certainty.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
UA787DEN
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:59 pm

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 147):
So I don't think the "no-call" at this time detracts too much from my current theory, but it is interesting.

I agree it is quite interesting. I would like to hear Atlanta Center/Approach ATC records during the steep descent.

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