Buffalo Air DC3 Crash Lands At Yellowknife

ykaops · Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:39 pm

Sitting.on Cdn North 445 for Edmonton..Buffalo Air DC3 just departed and lost engine.on take.off.. Made attempt at emergency landing...with non optimal results...aircraft extensively damagedhowever no.passengers or crew injuries.

louA340 · Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:47 pm

Oh wow, glad no one was injured. Did you manage to get any pictures?

KC135Hydraulics · Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:56 pm

Really! Do you have more information? Can you explain what happened? Also, do you have a link to a story?

Sounds like the loss of a classic plane... very sad.

ykaops · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:02 am

No..no pics yet..sitting.on a B737 200 in YZF when.it happened..capt said all ok. .but aircraft.likely write off..
Cant get pics due position.of the 737 here..accident occurred behind us.

Yflyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting ykaops (Reply 3):
but aircraft.likely write off..

I know the important thing is that everyone is ok, but that's sad that there will be one less beautiful DC-3 in the skies.

thomasphoto60 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:17 am

Thankfully, everyone is ok, and as others have stated a sad loss for us classic plane lovers.

On a side note, is the show still in production ?

L-188 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:25 am

At least there are still DC-3 frames out there.

Yflyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting ykaops (Thread starter):
Buffalo Air DC3 just departed and lost engine.on take.off.. Made attempt at emergency landing...with non optimal results...

I was just thinking about this a little more -- I know on any modern airliner losing an engine on takeoff should be a non-event; they're required to be capable of climbing to a particular altitude and returning to the airport for an emergency landing on the remaining engine(s). But being a 1930s design, was the DC-3 required to have the same sort of engine out capability as a modern airliner, or had those regulations not come into effect at the time?

rfields5421 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 7):
was the DC-3 required to have the same sort of engine out capability as a modern airliner, or had those regulations not come into effect at the time?

No - regulations have been updated since 1933.

However, an engine failure on takeoff for a twin prop is always a higher 'pucker' factor than a jetliner, but should be within the capabilities of the pilots. Though aircraft load weights and other factors may of course determine if a RTB is possible or just trying to find a flat spot to put down.

EDIT

Found a twitter feed on this incident - scroll down the 'Live News Feed'

http://www.cbc.ca/north/

Aircraft clipped trees and went down trying to land. One passenger reports being told to 'brace' right before impact.

No mention of engine problem but it is very early. OP bring in a aircraft of the same airline would likely have heard more details from pilot of his plane - as they wait for the airport to be reopened for departures.

[Edited 2013-08-19 17:41:51]

Viscount724 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:04 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 8):
Quoting Yflyer (Reply 7):
was the DC-3 required to have the same sort of engine out capability as a modern airliner, or had those regulations not come into effect at the time?

No - regulations have been updated since 1933.

However, an engine failure on takeoff for a twin prop is always a higher 'pucker' factor than a jetliner, but should be within the capabilities of the pilots. Though aircraft load weights and other factors may of course determine if a RTB is possible or just trying to find a flat spot to put down.

There's some discussion of DC-3 engine out performance in this 2010 Tech/Ops thread.
DC3 Engine Out Performance (by TravelAVNut Jun 21 2010 in Tech Ops)

ykaops · Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:36 am

Have heard that several of the pax have arrived at destination..not sure if on another Buffalo aircraft or alternate..good news for sure. Yes..they did clip a couple of trees and.now have heard gear was NOT down on purpose. Report will give details..i just wanted to let y'all know a classic bird may have met its day.
All the best to the Buffalo gang.. Keep up the good work supporting the North..

Yflyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
There's some discussion of DC-3 engine out performance in this 2010 Tech/Ops thread.
DC3 Engine Out Performance (by TravelAVNut Jun 21 2010 in Tech Ops)

Thanks! That thread was quite enlightening.

LGA777 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:34 am

Here is the first actual article I could find.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...9/north-yellowknife-air-crash.html

Is this flight still piloted by Buffalo Joe himself as the show depicts ?

Glad that all aboard seem to be okay.

Cheers

LGA777

F9Animal · Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:17 am

Glad to bear everyone is okay! Sounds like the flight crew did a darned good job! Had they hit the power lines, things might have ended differently.

Unflug · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:00 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 12):
Here is the first actual article I could find.

From this article:

Passengers have been told their bags will remain on the plane overnight as part of an investigation by the Transportation Safety Board.

Why do they need the passengers bags on the plane for the investigation? Sounds strange to me...

lapper · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:08 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 14):
Why do they need the passengers bags on the plane for the investigation?

I'm no expert but I would imagine it's to calculate the exact weight of the aircraft. Glad all are safe.

larspl · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:12 am

To weigh the bax and see if the A/C was overweight.

Unflug · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:53 am

Quoting lapper (Reply 15):
I'm no expert but I would imagine it's to calculate the exact weight of the aircraft. Glad all are safe.

Quoting larspl (Reply 16):
To weigh the bax and see if the A/C was overweight.

If this was the purpose they would have to keep the passengers for the investigation as well, wouldn't they? I'm quite sure that the passengers weigh more than the baggage.

AF1624 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 17):
If this was the purpose they would have to keep the passengers for the investigation as well, wouldn't they? I'm quite sure that the passengers weigh more than the baggage.

The point is to know if the crew knew the aircraft was overweight and ignored it, or if they didn't and something went wrong there.

When doing weight and balance you assume the passengers weights, you give them an average. The passenger number is known, so coming up with the weight is easy. It would be highly impractical to weigh every passenger before flight! This is why you don't need to keep the PAX on the airplane (if you ignore the the fact that it would be impossible anyway, for practical reasons. After all, it's false imprisonment!).

But the bags, though, and the cargo, is not assumed - it is actually weighed. So keeping them there allows them to do just that.

[Edited 2013-08-20 03:04:20]

BrusselsSouth · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:08 am

An A.netter was on board this very DC-3 on the day of the accident (though not on the accident flight)!

Glad everyone is OK.

Regards
BrusselsSouth

connies4ever · Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:10 pm

IIRC, YZF-YHY is the last scheduled DC-3 service in North America. I believe it's M-F. Certainly prominently featured on "Ice Pilots".

Glad that all souls are OK, but as noted in this thread, one less glorious DC-3, the "Gooney Bird".

Hopefully Buffalo Joe can keep his BP within tolerance !

northstardc4m · Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Hopefully Buffalo Joe can keep his BP within tolerance !

He seemed pretty calm in the interview on CBC i saw...

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
On a side note, is the show still in production ?

New season is scheduled for air this winter... might even be shooting now.

rfields5421 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 14):
Sounds strange to me...

No - it is completely normal and expected in any aircraft incident where the plane is not destroyed.

Pax have to wait for their bags/ personal belongings - for the very valid reasons mentioned above.

maxpower1954 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:26 pm

The CAA tried to ground the DC-3 as far back as 1952 - it didn't even come close to meeting Transport category standards of engine out performance, structural redundancy or stall behavior. The U.S. local service airlines cried foul because it was the only airplane they could afford to operate. By 1955 the government gave up and grandfathered it in. Today, the DC-3 is certified as a Normal category airplane, same as any modern light piston twin.

Having experienced an engine failure on T.O in a DC-3, I will report that particular airplane did much better than I would have hoped. But it was the straightest one in our fleet which makes a big difference in such a low powered airplane.

[Edited 2013-08-20 07:36:51]

maxpower1954 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:46 pm

Joe wasn't flying that day. Quote from the CBC story.

"The owner of the Second World War-era plane says it was built to endure some tough landings and his pilots did some quick thinking.

"Nobody got hurt. Nobody got shook up. They said it was quite smooth other than the very end; there was a little bit of a bump,” said Joe McBryan."

“I think the crew did a marvelous job under the circumstances. Mechanical problems do happen and it’s how you react to it. I think they reacted very well to it."

sibille · Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Seems to be the C-GWIR?
Could someone confirm the registration?

northstardc4m · Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting sibille (Reply 25):
Seems to be the C-GWIR?
Could someone confirm the registration?

Yes that's the reg, it's the only Buffalo 3 in that paint scheme.

Viscount724 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
YZF-YHY is the last scheduled DC-3 service in North America. I believe it's M-F.

Currently 6 days a week. No YZF-YHY flight Saturday and no YHY-YZF Sunday. The aircraft overnights at YHY.

MCOflyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:40 pm

I wonder if Justin Simle was the Captain or AJ Decoste. Would be interesting to know who the flight crew is.

KH

FLIEGER67 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:29 am

Guys, I was on the Monday morning service Hay River - Yellowknife operated also by C-GWIR and piloted by Joe himself. We had a really great time with Joe and the Buffalo people. So glad to follow that all staff and crew are ok. So terrible to follow the accident itself while boarding the Canadian North 732 for Edmonton. I have all the pics en detail but not sure if its good to show it here.

AirlineCritic · Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:02 am

Quoting FLIEGER67 (Reply 29):
I have all the pics en detail but not sure if its good to show it here.

Do show!

Also, a question: is it really the case that a DC-3 cannot fly properly/climb with an engine out? I'm trying to understand why an engine out would lead to hitting tree tops or a hard landing.

larspl · Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:51 am

affirm, a fully loaded DC-3 with an engine failure will not climb.

If you want a decent climb rate n-1 you need to limit the payload to about 12 passengers and restrict your fuel load to around 1/3.
In the days the DC-3 was designed an N-1 climb rate was not a certification requirement. And there were also not as many obstacles in the world.

maxpower1954 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:59 pm

Since the DC-3 is not a Transport category airplane, it must be flown similar to a light piston twin.

V1/V2/VR is 84 knots, regardless of weight, temperature or day of the week. Positive rate, gear up - accelerate to 95 kts which is best single engine climb speed (I always preferred 100 kts for a little more margin on the plus side). Then you make the first power reduction to METO - Maximum except for Take Off.

The up to ten second to accelerate to 95-100 knots is a dead zone. If you lose an engine here, there is not enough power to accelerate to best climb speed, you will get behind the drag curve and start to settle with no options other than to crash.

Link to the Air Service Berlin C-47 crash that shows what I'm talking about.

http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin-aktu.../Rosinenbomber-muss-notlanden.html

CP861 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:23 pm

Good that nobody was hurt; however, unfortunate events for these classics! Do you know whether the "Rosinenbomber" was ever fixed?

777ER · Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting FLIEGER67 (Reply 29):

Yes your totally allowed to post those pictures! Maybe even upload the photos to our database? Would you consider writing a trip report also?

777ER/Jason
Forum Moderator

ykaops · Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 pm

On a side note..

Buffalo Airways may fly the old generation aircraft types and some regulators and skeptics scoff at Joes attitude.towards "modernization", but Joe knows more about these classics than anyone in the world....period. If it aint broke dont fix it..Buffaloes birds havent been involved in a fatal accident as far as i can recall. Very few carriers in.the world today can make that claim. Keep em burnin n turnin Joe!!

connies4ever · Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting ykaops (Reply 35):
Buffalo Airways may fly the old generation aircraft types and some regulators and skeptics scoff at Joes attitude.towards "modernization", but Joe knows more about these classics than anyone in the world....period. If it aint broke dont fix it..Buffaloes birds havent been involved in a fatal accident as far as i can recall. Very few carriers in.the world today can make that claim. Keep em burnin n turnin Joe!!

Problem for Joe is, availability of Avgas is becoming a real issue for those operating piston types. Sooner or later, likely sooner, he's going to have to transition to turbine. Not just the Electras, but smaller stuff as well.