Huge Charter From Ketchikan - Disabled Cruise Ship

jetfuel · Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:25 pm

The Celebrity Millennium is broken down in Ketchikan and the Cruise line is currently trying to book 15-20 737 sized jets to ferry passengers to Anchorage for the next 2-3 days. The cruise was scheduled to end in Seward (Anchorage) so the majority have flights booked from ANC.

itrade · Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:28 pm

I am sure DL will be up to the challenge. They did for the last major Carnival breakdown.

jetfuel · Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:33 pm

Was thinking about who would have planes available, thinking Alaska

SonomaFlyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:38 pm

I'm not sure any one airline will be able to handle that many people at that location all at once. It would likely be a combo of AS, UA and DL or something along those lines.

OA260 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:20 pm

This will be some operation. Sadly for the Millenium things seem to go from bad to worse. Its the second time this month.

modesto2 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:29 pm

I'm sure DL will be all over this mess. Their charter department moves quickly and as others have mentioned, they've already completed other disabled cruise ship rescues.

blueflyer · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:16 pm

Time will tell, but let's not forget that unlike previous instances, there is a looong empty leg to position the planes to/from base for Delta. If they have some crew flexibility, I could see Alaska Airlines sending a few aircraft that would otherwise have RON'ed in SEA, ANC or FAI.

Even Hawaiian Airlines might be just as likely. They have a plane sitting idle in SEA for almost 12 hours daily (they need extra crew of course).

Thinking outside the box, can the flying be outsourced to a foreign airline by a domestic airline? Air Canada, Air North and WestJet are pretty close too, if only they can find a US partner to contract with.

[Edited 2013-08-20 13:27:42]

wedgetail737 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
Time will tell, but let's not forget that unlike previous instances, there is a looong empty leg to position the planes to/from base for Delta. If they have some crew flexibility, I could see Alaska Airlines sending a few aircraft that would otherwise have RON'ed in ANC or FAI.

Even Hawaiian Airlines might be just as likely. They have a plane sitting idle in SEA for almost 12 hours daily (they need extra crew of course).

Thinking outside the box, can the flying be outsourced to a foreign airline by a domestic airline? Air Canada, Air North and WestJet are pretty close too, if only they can find a US partner to contract with.

Keep in mind that KTN is not a metropolis of an airport. 737's, MD-80's and 727's are about all KTN can handle. I don't think KTN has ground equipment to handle airplanes 757's or larger.

hiflyeras · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:36 pm

I don't think just anyone can fly into every airport in AS Air Limited (Kenya)">SE Alaska. JNU has special procedures and training and pilots must remain "current" to fly there. Not sure if the same applies to KTN. It could be that AS is their only option.

airnorth · Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:40 pm

Air North does a lot of charter work in as well, though their fleet is pretty small, they do have 732, 734, and 735's available, and they are real close.

AA737-823 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
Even Hawaiian Airlines might be just as likely. They have a plane sitting idle in SEA for almost 12 hours daily (they need extra crew of course).

It would be pretty hard to ferry a 717 all the way to Ketchikan from Hawaii, don't you think?

While Anchorage is A380 capable, Ketchikan is..... not quite as large.

alaskan9974 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:15 pm

AS7037, first of the extra flights? Doesn't look like a regular sched flight.

[Edited 2013-08-20 15:16:59]

KBJCpilot · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
Even Hawaiian Airlines might be just as likely. They have a plane sitting idle in SEA for almost 12 hours daily (they need extra crew of course).

It would be pretty hard to ferry a 717 all the way to Ketchikan from Hawaii, don't you think?

So much for reading comprehension. I don't think there is a HA 717 sitting in SEA every day.

rfields5421 · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:19 pm

Looking at Flightaware

There is:

SCX 8600 is enroute to Ketchikan sked to arrive this evening from MSP
BSK642 and BSK532 sked to arrive from AMA. BSK 642 is enroute from Miami to AMA.

calpsafltskeds · Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting alaskan9974 (Reply 11):

AS7037, first of the charters?

FlightAware shows a 1502 departure for the next three days to SIT with the AS7037 and AS7039 flight numbers. Rather doubt these are for the cruise ship issue.

ikramerica · Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 12):
So much for reading comprehension. I don't think there is a HA 717 sitting in SEA every day.

nor can a 767 or A330 operate this service. that's why it was a JOKE...

Sevensixtyseven · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:09 am

Could airlines ferry their RON aircraft up from YVR, SEA, GEG, or PDX? I think the 757 would be the perfect plane for this.

threeifbyair · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 14):
FlightAware shows a 1502 departure for the next three days to SIT with the AS7037 and AS7039 flight numbers. Rather doubt these are for the cruise ship issue.

Yeah, IIRC this is the regular AS 734 full-cargo flight.

With 2x 738 from Miami Air Int'l and Sun Country's 738, a few rotations of each plane to ANC (KTN-ANC is 775mi o/w) should be enough lift to get everyone repositioned. Roughly 500 passengers can be moved in each 3-plane rotation.

AS will already make money on this situation without even flying. Who else would have the equipment and crews to service a 737 on the ground in KTN?

hatbutton · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 15):
nor can a 767 or A330 operate this service. that's why it was a JOKE...

Why not? OGG is just shy of 7,000 feet and 767s operate from there to the west coast all the time. KTN's runway is 7,500 feet and they would only need to go to ANC. Not saying HA would operate this, but I believe they could if they wanted to.

ORDJOE · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting jetfuel (Thread starter):
15-20 737 sized

Why not get 8-10 widebodies instead, are is it just cheaper to get a bunch of 737s than a proportional amount of widebodies.

threeifbyair · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 19):
Why not get 8-10 widebodies instead, are is it just cheaper to get a bunch of 737s than a proportional amount of widebodies.

Availability, in 2 different ways.

1) SY and LL don't have anything larger than 738s. In the summer, the major scheduled airlines are running at high utilizations.
2) No ground equipment at KTN for widebodies.

I am slightly surprised that AS doesn't appear to be involved. Perhaps there wasn't a spare available, or the charter shops are bidding low.

sunking737 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 19):
Why not get 8-10 widebodies instead, are is it just cheaper to get a bunch of 737s than a proportional amount of widebodies.

Maybe lack of jet ways and stair trucks.??

rfields5421 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:42 am

At least the 1,900 passengers stranded in Singapore by the Sun Princess electrical problems have better options to get to Australia.

Quoting hatbutton (Reply 18):
Why not? OGG is just shy of 7,000 feet and 767s operate from there to the west coast all the time. KTN's runway is 7,500 feet and they would only need to go to ANC.

A key reason

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 20):
2) No ground equipment at KTN for widebodies.

But another issue is weight.

OGG is built for aircraft weighing up to 750,000 lbs, which KTN's runways are for 300,000 lbs weight.

hiflyeras · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:58 am

Finding an airline in the middle of summer with a/c AND crews available isn't all that easy. I'm sure AS was contacted but just didn't have the means to help out in the manner required.

Bacon907 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:00 am

I don't know about KTN but when I worked for AS in ANC there were certain airports that AS flew could only accommodate the -400 and the -700 due to limited ramp space. I don't remember which ones but they were taking steps to fix that situation due to the decreasing number of -400/-700 aircraft.

If I remember correctly....aside from a tow bar I think AS has stairs, GPU's, Biffy trucks, and equipment to handle ULD's.....so if there was enough ramp space and somebody wanted to.....they could handle some bigger aircraft.
If ya didn't want to send Cans with the aircraft......they could stack the bags the old fashioned way.....

yowza · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:01 am

Is there anything stopping a Canadian carrier from operating these flights? I'm sure WS has enough slack to fire up a few rotations.

YOWza

audioace87 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:17 am

What about some of the more private 737s from say Shared Aviation Services that are normally doing north slope flights for oil companies?

thrufru · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:22 am

Somebody mentioned Flightaware above, and I can confirm that Miami Air sent an aircraft with multiple crews for this mission. Fortunately, I'm on days off!

bohica · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting yowza (Reply 25):
Is there anything stopping a Canadian carrier from operating these flights? I'm sure WS has enough slack to fire up a few rotations.

It should be no problem as long as the flight lands in Canada.

The cruise departed Vancouver so some of the passengers may want to go back there.

sw733 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:46 am

At least 2 Miami Air 738s seem to be enroute now from Amarillo to Ketchikan. Can't imagine that route has been flown too many times before

SVA402 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:52 am

There are more problems than just runway length at play here. KTN can fit 2 AS 737s. There are 2 gates and potentially room for 1 airplane remotely, but not bigger than another 737. The only way from the runway to the ramp is up and down taxiways that are sloped and cannot accommodate a large aircraft like a 757 or bigger. See picture:

http://www.sitnews.us/1005news/102105/102105_KIA_cw.jpg

wjcandee · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:54 am

If DL doesn't have the availability, this is what companies like North American, Miami Air, Sun Country, etc. do very well.

[Edited 2013-08-20 18:54:40]

sw733 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:55 am

Could they park a couple planes on the taxiway and use the runway as a taxiway?

usxguy · Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:50 am

no, they need the taxiways to get to the runway. The terminal is actually BELOW the runway, so the taxiways slope down. Also, this is not a straight-in-straight out airport, so there are limits as to what can land there.

The ramp may have "2" gates, but there's only 1 jetway and its pretty must set for 737s. I don't think Alaska has any pallet loaders or air stairs that can get much taller than a 757.

From www.kinyradio.com:

Alaska cruise canceled after mechanical issues
BECKY BOHRER,Associated Press
JUNEAU, Alaska (AP) — Celebrity Cruises is canceling the remainder of a seven-night cruise to Alaska after mechanical issues forced the Millennium to return to port in Ketchikan.

The cruise line, in a statement, says passengers will receive refunds of their cruise fares. The cruise line also is offering future cruise certificates and arranging chartered air travel home.

Spokeswoman Cynthia Martinez says the ship was carrying more than 3,100 people, including 2,200 guests.

She says there is a mechanical issue with one of the ship's propulsion motors. The Millennium had an issue with the same motor previously.

A Coast Guard spokesman says the latest problem prompted the ship to return to port in Ketchikan on Sunday. Kip Wadlow says his agency late Monday ordered the vessel to stay put until the issue is fixed.

rfields5421 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 32):
Could they park a couple planes on the taxiway and use the runway as a taxiway?

The KTN runway is at 85 feet elevation on the north end, 89 feet on the south end. The terminal is at about 25 feet elevation.

There are taxiways which connect to each end of the runway and slope down to the terminal area at mid-field - approx. a 60 feet decrease in elevation. There are NO mid-field taxiways.

Frankly all the talk about needing larger planes isn't really necessary.

The airport can handle about two aircraft at the same time. Three aircraft in rotation can move the passengers out quite efficiently.

Here is another thing to consider.

The airport is located across the main channel from the town of Ketchikan - and there is NO bridge. Only an open deck ferry which also moves vehicles. (If you want to know why no bridge - research "Bridge to Nowhere" - yes - that was where it was planned.)

The passengers are quite comfortable in their staterooms on the ship. This is not a situation where the passengers are trapped without food, etc.

The ship has power, water, hot food, sanitation, etc. It is just a large, non-moveable hotel right now. The issue is mechanical with one of the engine pods. It does not impact passenger services.

prosa · Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:16 am

What really causes headaches for cruise lines is when ships on Caribbean cruises go out of service at any of the islands. A non-insignificant percentage of the people on these cruises refuse to fly, so other cruise lines have to be enlisted to return the stranded travelers to the home ports.

usxguy · Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:40 am

Here are a few images to help

and a VERY old picture

GentFromAlaska · Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:05 am

According to the ships agent in Juneau the Millennium is carrying 2038 pax on this voyage. http://juneauempire.com/

Here are the airport specifics http://skyvector.com/airport/KTN/Ketchikan-International-Airport or http://www.airnav.com/airport/PAKT

Ketchikan also holds the dubious title as being the rainiest city on the North American continent which many of you may remember as the the bridge to nowhere city. That bridge was suppose to connect Ketchikan to the airport. The airport is accessible by a short ferry crossing across the channel. Which I have made many times. It is roughly a 1:45 ride NNE of SEA on a 73X or similiar type aircraft.

Quoting SVA402 (Reply 30):
There are 2 gates and potentially room for 1 airplane remotely,

Are you sure about that. Its been a few years but I distinctly remember seeing two AS flights and two Mark Air flights at the terminal at the same time one evening.

GentFromAlaska · Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37):
the Millennium is carrying 2038 pax on this voyage

Not considering the amount of baggage alone. that's going to be about 15 people trips filled to the gills on a 73X or similar. because AS is the sole carrier in KTN their rampers are going to have two or three very busy days.

Perhaps the cruise ship will contract out a ramp crew and fly them up to help with the charters. And yes they can get a 757 into KTN and Sitka too.

The other thing the cruise ship could do if they are thinking would be to fly something large including the 747 into Juneau and shuttle everybody up from Ketchikan to JNU. Juneau has landed the 747 previously and from time to time you'll see a U-S-A-F galaxy C-5A which takes up every bit of runway. The C-5 shook the windows in the downtown federal bldg with a departure down Gastineau channel as she lifts out. Now that's a spotter dream picture.

jetfuel · Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:40 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 38):
shuttle everybody up from Ketchikan to JNU

How??? https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Ketchikan+to+JNU&rlz=1C1ASUM_enAU525AU525&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

[Edited 2013-08-20 22:53:06]

usxguy · Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:50 am

and why? we don't have that many hotel rooms in this town...

Kaphias · Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 38):
and from time to time you'll see a U-S-A-F galaxy C-5A which takes up every bit of runway. The C-5 shook the windows in the downtown federal bldg with a departure down Gastineau channel as she lifts out. Now that's a spotter dream picture.

Sure is (was):
5A-Galaxy/1935124/L/" target="_blank">View Large 5A-Galaxy/1935124/M/" target="_blank">View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kaphias

I remember going on board one back before 9/11 when Juneau still had an airshow. Amazing aircraft.

Although it's fun to think about the possibilities in this situation, I think it'll end up being pretty simple: charter airlines shuttle passengers between KTN and ANC using a few 737s, with an AS ground crew. As someone mentioned, the bottleneck will probably be the airport ferry... but even that shouldn't be an issue.

thrufru · Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:58 am

Just saw our flight schedules for the next few days. We have two aircraft and four crews scheduled to operate turns to both YVR and SEA.

sw733 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Looks like a Sun Country 738 also arrived in from MSP last night, in addition to the 2x Miami Air 738s that came in from Amarillo that I mentioned earlier. Guess these are the charter departments that jumped early on this one!

rfields5421 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:57 pm

This is how someone gets to the airport

http://www.borough.ketchikan.ak.us/airport/airport_ferry.htm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 39):
How???

The Alaska Marine Highway System

http://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/map.shtml

GentFromAlaska · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 39):
How???

If you are referring to road access; the term shuttle takes on multiple meanings. In this region its air, sea or swim. Flying is of course the preferred. The State also operates many ferries one being a fast ferry which normally runs between JNU and Skagway which could be diverted and utilized in a crunch Its a 20 hour sail from JNU to KTN in the inside passage route . The ferries are on the State's emergency response doctrine.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 39):
I think it'll end up being pretty simple: charter airlines shuttle passengers between KTN and ANC using a few 737s, with an AS ground

KTN-ANC is probably the best. As stated above the cruise ship pax would have flown out of there anyways be it a few days earlier than planned. Multiple carriers do offer service to ANC for the cruise pax flights home or where ever the voyage embarked from YVR, SEA or even SFO. I don't think there are going to be a lot of non-rev seats out of ANC in the next few days.

tb727 · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 8):

I don't think just anyone can fly into every airport in AS Air Limited (Kenya)">SE Alaska. JNU has special procedures and training and pilots must remain "current" to fly there. Not sure if the same applies to KTN. It could be that AS is their only option.

It's not, I've gone in there with no special training. It's a different airport, that's for sure. I loved it!

hnl-jack · Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:04 pm

The approach into KTN down the channel can be very challenging and as noted the airport is quite small. Of today's aircraft, I can't imagine attempting an operation into there in something much larger than a model of the 737.

GentFromAlaska · Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 47):
The approach into KTN down the channel can be very challenging and as noted the airport is quite small. Of today's aircraft, I can't imagine attempting an operation into there in something much larger than a model of the 737.

Additionally you have up, down and sideways wind shear from the mountain(s) more so when a cold front passes over the panhandle region and on Gravina Island where the airports sits; and rain usually.

As I've said many times landing in S.E. Alaska that ride alone would have cost me $5 in a amusement park ride setting.

[Edited 2013-08-21 09:21:39]

jporterfi · Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 42):

Just saw our flight schedules for the next few days. We have two aircraft and four crews scheduled to operate turns to both YVR and SEA.

I just noticed on flightaware that BSK 645 is scheduled on a KTN-SEA run. I assume this is one of the BSA 738s that came in last night. Did Celebrity cruises decide to fly some passengers to SEA instead of ANC?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK645

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