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mozart
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Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:11 pm

I am trying to understand the cargo flying of these airlines.

Is the following correct:

ACA - no more freighter planes. Last thing they had was one (or more?) MD11s leased from World in World colours, but that contract was terminated some years ago.

Qantas - no freighter planes until now, but one (or more?) Atlas 747-400F operating exclusively for Qantas Cargo. But I understand that contract is terminated and QF will introduce own cargo planes in QF colours into its fleet. Which route will they fly?

Air New Zealand - ??
 
skipness1E
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Didn't I see and post on this very thread last night? Why was it deleted???
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 1):

Didn't I see and post on this very thread last night? Why was it deleted???

Probably not the thread your referring to but it's certainly been discussed.

First Qantas Freight 737F Unveiled, 744F Soon (by na Aug 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:32 pm

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
ACA - no more freighter planes. Last thing they had was one (or more?) MD11s leased from World in World colours, but that contract was terminated some years ago.

AC has a long history of flying all cargo aircraft to even before the DC-4M. That was to continue with the order for B777Fs.

However, it was decided that the lower deck freight capacity of the B777 is sufficient to satisfy demand, and the order for B777Fs was switched to passenger ships. Presently, there are no all cargo aircraft at AC, but ... one does occassionally see a route flown by the B777 with half passenger loads, or cheap cheap airfares, and wondering why ... the answer lies in the lower deck, with tens of thousands of kilos of freight.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:33 pm

I think you're correct re AC. They only do belly cargo right now, and with the 77L/W fleet, they can haul quite a lot. There was a leased MD-11 a few years back (Gemini, I think) but gone now. When the 777 order was announced, there were 2 777LRFs included, but later cancelled.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
Air New Zealand - ??

NZ converted one of their DC-8 to freighter.


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Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
AC has a long history of flying all cargo aircraft

Indeed, AC has also operated at a time a single DC-9F and three B727-100F.


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PanHAM
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:58 pm

You do not need freighters to run a cargo division. Marketing the belly capacity of the passenger fleet will do it.

This can be handled by a department of the airline or by a subsidiary company. The latter serves a number of advantages, for instance can they market the belly capacity of other carriers as well.

A good example is Leisure cargo which started as the freight division of LTU and was inherited by Air Berlin which spun off this operation, still owning it (I would have to update my information what the current status is).

However, they handle a good number of carriers, either wholly or country wise.
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 5):
Indeed, AC has also operated at a time a single DC-9F and three B727-100F.

Yes, it started with the Bristol Freighter. That was replaced with a "Cargoliner" all cargo version of the DC-4M2. Then an all cargo Vanguard, (no cargo door, but no seats either ... odd). They also were the first customer of the DC-8-50 Jet Trader, and operated them in various configurations from all cargo to all passenger.

In addition to the DC-9Fs and B727-100Fs, they also operated DC-8-63Fs and DC-8-73Fs. There were also combi versions of the B747-200 and -400.

Did I miss any? Because of Canada's geography, freight has always been important. With the loss of the Canada Post contract, it appears less important domestically, and more important internationally.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:09 pm

Qantas didn't really have any cargo aircraft of their own till a few years ago when a B763 was introduced on the SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD route. QF owns Australian Air Express which is an Australian domestic cargo airline using dedicated cargo BAe146, B733 and B763. Qantas Freight is about to add a B744ERF (ex Jade Cargo currently sitting in Majove) and possibly another 2-3 B744s. QF also leases a Polar B744 but this lease will be ending once the B744ERF arrives.
The BAe146 and B733F are painted in Australian Air Express colours, B763F in QF Freight colours

http://www.qantas.com.au/qfreight/qfe/fleetequipment/aircraft/au/en


NZ doesn't have any dedicated cargo aircraft now. All freight is via the cargo hold of passenger services

[Edited 2013-08-22 06:10:48]
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:29 pm

Even a classic freight forwarder can operate freighter aircraft, example is Panalpina with 2 ACMI operated Atlas 747-8F.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
Did I miss any? Because of Canada's geography, freight has always been important.

In North America no passenger airline has even a remote chance to operate freighter aircraft and turn in a profit. That business model was destroyed by Mr Smith when creating Fedex and with UPS following suit. They have their canadian operations and partners . Besides that freighters operate in niche markets only like in the Northern Territories etc., sames as in the USA with Alaska or dedicated ops like the mainly YIP based automotive flights.

They take the bread crumbs left over by the duopol FX/UPS.

[Edited 2013-08-22 07:27:39]

[Edited 2013-08-22 07:41:36]
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
There was a leased MD-11 a few years back (Gemini, I thin

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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
However, it was decided that the lower deck freight capacity of the B777 is sufficient to satisfy demand, and the order for B777Fs was switched to passenger ships. Presently, there are no all cargo aircraft at AC, but ... one does occassionally see a route flown by the B777 with half passenger loads, or cheap cheap airfares, and wondering why ... the answer lies in the lower deck, with tens of thousands of kilos of freight.


Which I think explains the 77W to SCL & EZE. Not sure the pax loads justify it, but the backhaul is pretty substantial. Also GRU, which went from 763 -> 77W.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
Yes, it started with the Bristol Freighter. That was replaced with a "Cargoliner" all cargo version of the DC-4M2. Then an all cargo Vanguard, (no cargo door, but no seats either ... odd). They also were the first customer of the DC-8-50 Jet Trader, and operated them in various configurations from all cargo to all passenger.

There's a story, not sure how apocryphal, about the Bristol. TCA pilots lands in (then) IDW and is walking across the ramp to the cargo terminal and is stopped by an AA captain. Inquiry is : "You fly that thing here ?" TCA guy responds, "Yes, just came in from Toronto". AA pilot says; "You make it yourself ?".

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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 1):
Didn't I see and post on this very thread last night? Why was it deleted???

The thread was moved to tech/ops. I guess the OP didn't notice and started a new one instead, which might be moved to tech/ops too if there is any consistency. And my answer will be deleted too for not being on topic, probably...
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:23 pm

That's annoying, I thought my post was really good too  
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:30 pm

I think Air Canada had either freighters or combi pretty much throughout its history until the end of the contract with World save for a brief period between the retirement of the last 747-400M in 2004 and the arrival of the World MD11 in 2005.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
There was a leased MD-11 a few years back

From 2005 to 2007 under an ACMI contract with World.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
one does occassionally see a route flown by the B777 with half passenger loads, or cheap cheap airfares, and wondering why

Some passenger aircraft have decent economics as freighter. A few years back, when fuel was a bit cheaper, Cathay was flying a passenger A330 in the middle of the night sans customers, carrying only DHL freight.
Today still, Finnair gets so much freight business from BRU that once a week, an A340 operates one of the two daily HEL-BRU vv rotations instead of the usual A320 solely for the cargo volume.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
In addition to the DC-9Fs and B727-100Fs, they also operated DC-8-63Fs and DC-8-73Fs. There were also combi versions of the B747-200 and -400.

Did I miss any?

To my knowledge they only used one DC-9F, unless some of the DC-9-15RC they acquired from CO were also used in some cargo services. Otherwise those you cited, including the Jet Trader, were their fleet of cargo hauler.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):
To my knowledge they only used one DC-9F, unless some of the DC-9-15RC they acquired from CO were also used in some cargo services

They had one DC-9-32CF, that was used exclusively as a freighter. Then they had the 8 DC-915s, 7 -15Fs and one -15RC.

While the -15s were used mostly in an all Y 75 pax version, there were two -15s that were painted in Air Canada Cargo paint schemes as was the -32CF. Other than sitting on the top of Toronto T1 on my bicycle, I was not there, so I can't really confirm that the -15s ever flew freight.

I do have one publicity picture of a DC-9-15F in Air Canada Cargo colours with the cargo door open and the seats removed ... that's as close as I can assume it flew freight.

(The early -14s were all passenger, without a cargo door.)
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Then they had the 8 DC-915s, 7 -15Fs and one -15RC.

They were in fact all -15RC (Rapid Change) built and convertible to cargo. Depending on the source they are either labeled as DC-9-15F (RC) or simply DC-9-15RC. The only other baby DC-9 version with a cargo door were the -15MC built for Tree-Top Airlines.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):
To my knowledge they only used one DC-9F, unless some of the DC-9-15RC they acquired from CO were also used in some cargo services

They had one DC-9-32CF, that was used exclusively as a freighter. Then they had the 8 DC-915s, 7 -15Fs and one -15RC.

As far as I know, and based on several fleet lists, all 8 DC-9-15s acquired by AC from CO in 1972/73 were -15RCs with main deck cargo door. They were operated in both passenger and all-cargo configurations at various times. I don't think the cargo venture lasted very long. All were sold to Air Florida between 1977 and 1981.

Same aircraft in all photos below. It appears to still be active at age 46 (delivered to CO June 1967).


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The -32CF was acquired from U.S. supplemental/charter carrier Overseas National Airways in 1973 and was sold to Southern Airways in 1977.


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[Edited 2013-08-23 13:27:38]
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
Presently, there are no all cargo aircraft at AC, but ... one does occassionally see a route flown by the B777 with half passenger loads, or cheap cheap airfares, and wondering why ... the answer lies in the lower deck, with tens of thousands of kilos of freight.

Where the ESAD allows I believe AC is hauling up to 24t on the 77W and 18.5t on the 77L on a volume limited basis. They are probably doing better than this hauling "wet" fruit and vegetable products like asparagus and grapes out of Sth. America.
In my view the 777 series and A346 have revolutionized the belly cargo business. Typically the incremental fuel cost is as little as .30c to .50c a kg.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
They were in fact all -15RC (Rapid Change) built and convertible to cargo. Depending on the source they are either labeled as DC-9-15F (RC) or simply DC-9-15RC.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
As far as I know, and based on several fleet lists, all 8 DC-9-15s acquired by AC from CO in 1972/73 were -15RCs with main deck cargo door.

I was looking on an Air Canada fleet list, and they show a conversion date from -15RC to -15F, with one of the 8 never being converted. I am going to assume the "conversion" was an Air Canada internal thing (as it was on an Air Canada publication I was looking), nothing official as yes they all came from CO with cargo doors, and that 7 of them flew freight and passengers, while one remained passenger only.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
Qantas Freight is about to add a B744ERF (ex Jade Cargo currently sitting in Majove) and possibly another 2-3 B744s

I believe this is the aircraft QF Freight will receiving soon 
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:13 am

Apparently that picture is of CF-TOP at YUL in 1972 and it was purchased on May 9, 1972.

I don't know how accurate this is, but in A History Of Airlines In Canada, the author mentions that the DC-9-15RC were brought in to replace the Vanguards that had been used until October 1971 for passenger service and until May 1972 for cargo.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:09 am

There are probably some cheap 747-8Fs to picked up for someone in the need of a dedicated freighter. It is a notch above the 744ERF really.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 21):

I believe this is the aircraft QF Freight will receiving soon

Maybe the 2nd or 3rd proposed aircraft, I thought the first was L/N1416? and been parked in the desert since it was built in 2009.

Quoting sweair (Reply 23):
There are probably some cheap 747-8Fs to picked up for someone in the need of a dedicated freighter.

Like where? Yes there were a few early build 747-8Fs that were a bit overweight but they are in service aren't they?! And a couple in the desert for NCA since the older 744s are paid off, but they will fly for NCA when the market improves most likely or the 744s are due for heavy checks.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 22):
I don't know how accurate this is, but in A History Of Airlines In Canada, the author mentions that the DC-9-15RC were brought in to replace the Vanguards that had been used until October 1971 for passenger service and until May 1972 for cargo.
AC only converted one Vanguard for cargo use and it wasn't an ideal freighter as it lacked a main deck cargo door. It could only handle cargo that would fit through the standard passenger doors. And it had very brief service in that role with AC.

It was similar to a couple of DC-4M North Stars that were similarly converted for cargo use (but without a cargo door) in their last few years in TCA service.

[Edited 2013-08-24 13:49:36]
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
AC only converted one Vanguard for cargo use and it wasn't an ideal freighter as it lacked a main deck cargo door. It could only handle cargo that would fit through the standard passenger doors. And it had very brief service in that role with AC.

I guess the author must have mixed up data or got some wrong since I've found the following short news regarding the DC-9-15 acquisition and their purpose.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%202521.html?search=Air%20Canada
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
AC only converted one Vanguard for cargo use and it wasn't an ideal freighter as it lacked a main deck cargo door. It could only handle cargo that would fit through the standard passenger doors. And it had very brief service in that role with AC.

It was similar to a couple of DC-4M North Stars that were similarly converted for cargo use (but without a cargo door) in their last few years in TCA service.

I think you have to remember the intent of cargo only domestic airplanes in Canada at the time. I don't think they had much demand for anything other than small packages. Granted, a large cargo door and pallets would be easier, there didn't appear to be a need. At the time, BEA was already converting their Vanguards to all cargo with a large cargo door.

I had the opportunity to walk through the all cargo Vanguard of AC, when it was in the hangar. The forward half of the forward galley was still there, as was one of the aft lavs ... everything else was removed. There was a central aisle, with "cages" in long rows on either side. It looks like these were used for "sorting", as mail and packages were added and removed at each stop. The main use of the aircraft were long multi-stop flights across Canada. Flights like YUL-YVR with 10 stops, or YYZ-YYT with 10 stops were not uncommon.

I never saw the inside of the all cargo DC-4M. I am going to guess it was much the same, as it was doing the same thing. The Pilot AOM for the TCA DC-4M, shows that version as just an empty cabin, with one aft lav.

Air Canada, at the time, was the sole air carrier for Canada Post.

As a side note, I was incorrect above with the marketing names of the aircraft. The cargo DC-4M was the "Flying Merchant" and the Vanguard was the "Cargoliner".
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
I had the opportunity to walk through the all cargo Vanguard of AC, when it was in the hangar. The forward half of the forward galley was still there, as was one of the aft lavs ... everything else was removed. There was a central aisle, with "cages" in long rows on either side. It looks like these were used for "sorting", as mail and packages were added and removed at each stop. The main use of the aircraft were long multi-stop flights across Canada. Flights like YUL-YVR with 10 stops, or YYZ-YYT with 10 stops were not uncommon.

That's a very interesting part of history. Sorting mail in the air. I would never have thought about it.
 
mozart
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:22 pm

What would be typical stops on a 10 stop journey from YYZ to YYT?
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 29):
What would be typical stops on a 10 stop journey from YYZ to YYT?

The 10-stop reference was a sllight exaggeration, but the 1962 timetable has a daily 6-stop Vanguard (passenger) operating YYZ-YUL-YQM-YHZ-YQY-YJT-YQX-YYT.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:44 pm

Qantas have had freighters for a while (737-400's) but they were operated by AAE. Qantas has ended that partnership and have been operating the flights for just over a month now with this bad boy making its first daylight to BNE the other day

clicky for photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lanceb83/9578960555/

[Edited 2013-08-25 15:46:54]
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 29):
What would be typical stops on a 10 stop journey from YYZ to YYT?

YYZ-YOW-YUL-YQB-YFC-YSJ-YQM-YHZ-YQY-YJT-YQX-YYT.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
The 10-stop reference was a sllight exaggeration, but the 1962 timetable has a daily 6-stop Vanguard (passenger) operating YYZ-YUL-YQM-YHZ-YQY-YJT-YQX-YYT.

It was not an exaggeration, and you wont find it in a timetable, as it was a freight flight. Much like you wont find these published: YUL-YOW-YYZ-YXU-YAM-YQT-YWG-YQR-YXE-YYC-YEG-YVR. YYZ-YOW-YUL-JFK. or YUL-YOW-YYZ-YXU-ORD.

These were all pairings in my Father's Vanguard bidding package from 1967. The Vanguard Cargoliner flew from 1966 until the retirement of the type at AC.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):

It was not an exaggeration, and you wont find it in a timetable, as it was a freight flight.

I guess they took the cargo flights out of the timetable at some point. A 1961 timetable shows the North Star "Flying Merchant" flights.
 
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I guess they took the cargo flights out of the timetable at some point. A 1961 timetable shows the North Star "Flying Merchant" flights.

Yes, the later 60s timetables only showed those freighters that also carried passengers, and only in a combi configuration. Like the DC-8-54JT. Even then you had to be a sleuth to figure it out.

I am thinking though, that these Vanguard Cargoliner flights that I mentioned may not even have sold space as "freight", only flying specifically for Canada Post. At some point during this time, AC lost its "exclusivity" in carrying mail in Canada. Then all other Canadian airlines were allowed to bid on carrying mail ... I am sure the lanscape, (and use of the Cargoliner) changed from that point, as carrying mail in the belly of a passenger aircraft would have been far more efficient.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:10 am

Qantas also has a 763F. I saw it yesterday in SYD.
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:49 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 35):
Qantas also has a 763F. I saw it yesterday in SYD.

The aircraft VH-EFR operates the triangular SYD-CHC-AKL-SYD SYD-AKL-SYD services.


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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 35):
Qantas also has a 763F. I saw it yesterday in SYD.

The aircraft VH-EFR operates the triangular SYD-CHC-AKL-SYD SYD-AKL-SYD services.


Isn't that aircraft owned and operated by another carrier for QF?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:56 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
Isn't that aircraft owned and operated by another carrier for QF?

Yes, however that other carrier, Express Freighter Australia, is a subsidiary of QF.

http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-767/vh-efr/vhefr.html
 
brilondon
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 5):
Indeed, AC has also operated at a time a single DC-9F and three B727-100F.

Here is another AC cargo aircraft:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...d=117394bbe37edad270d6572218d6b9db

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 28):

That's a very interesting part of history. Sorting mail in the air. I would never have thought about it.

That was just an extension of the railway post office car that the railroads had back in the day. It was more efficient to sort the mail en route and ready to be distributed at the destination than to have the processing done at the origin or destination.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 34):
I am thinking though, that these Vanguard Cargoliner flights that I mentioned may not even have sold space as "freight", only flying specifically for Canada Post. At some point during this time, AC lost its "exclusivity" in carrying mail in Canada. Then all other Canadian airlines were allowed to bid on carrying mail ... I am sure the lanscape, (and use of the Cargoliner) changed from that point, as carrying mail in the belly of a passenger aircraft would have been far more efficient.

And in the early? mid? 70s, Canada Post implemented postal codes and automated sorting, which was far more efficient than hand-sorting (and impossible to install on an aircraft).
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 28):
Sorting mail in the air. I would never have thought about it.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 39):
It was more efficient to sort the mail en route and ready to be distributed at the destination than to have the processing done at the origin or destination.

I am not so sure that is what happened. There were no "passenger" facilities left on the aircraft in the Cargoliner configuration. The F/A jumpseats were a part of the galley module (they were actually inside the aft half of the two galleys), and that part was removed. There were no "bulkhead" jumpseats like today, as AC's Vanguards had airstairs occupying the entry vestibules.

Also, in the emergency operations section of the AOM, there is no mention of "passenger considerations" in the Cargoliner version, like there is in the passenger version.

Some of the legs were only 20 minutes long, of which probably less than 10 minutes or so was above 10,000'.

I am going to guess the sorting was done on the ground, and maill bags were quickly placed in the respective cages, and removed from respective cages during the ground time. Something like:

At YOW, the YOW cage full of mail bags was emptied. Then, YUL, YQB, YHZ, etc. bags were added to their respective cages, to be emptied when they get there. Then a load agent walked through adding up the bags/positions for weight and balance.

Unfortunately, my Dad has passed away, and with that a valuable reference resource. This kind of operation is the type of thing we used to talk about over a beer .... the odd minutia of airline flying in the 1960s.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 39):
Here is another AC cargo aircraft:https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...d=117394bbe37edad270d6572218d6b9db

It was already mentioned.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
They also were the first customer of the DC-8-50 Jet Trader, and operated them in various configurations from all cargo to all passenger.
 
xjet
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:58 pm

Looks as if QF have decided to cancel adding its own 747F...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...reighter-plane-20130903-2t2nf.html
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting XJET (Reply 43):
Looks as if QF have decided to cancel adding its own 747F...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta....html

Too bad, however not surprising. Even LH Cargo is not growing for the time being but about to simply replace older aircraft with newer ones.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 11):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
However, it was decided that the lower deck freight capacity of the B777 is sufficient to satisfy demand, and the order for B777Fs was switched to passenger ships. Presently, there are no all cargo aircraft at AC, but ... one does occassionally see a route flown by the B777 with half passenger loads, or cheap cheap airfares, and wondering why ... the answer lies in the lower deck, with tens of thousands of kilos of freight.


Which I think explains the 77W to SCL & EZE. Not sure the pax loads justify it, but the backhaul is pretty substantial. Also GRU, which went from 763 -> 77W.

Exactly especially perishable cargo. A mass amount of berries, fruit and vegetables are shipped to Canada this way. Chile is a major source allowing fresh fruit at almost the same price in the January and February as local fruit in the summer.

Despite the loss of Canada Post, who now sends via whoever and along with the Purolator packages on their aircraft/routes, I think AC Cargo is doing quite well with South America, China and still to Frankfurt. I was told by a pilot that the B763 to Tel Aviv takes off at maximum weight most days with cargo left behind. If that is still true you might see a 787 put on to take additional cargo lift.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 45):
I think AC Cargo is doing quite well with South America

In another thread I've read that AC is sending the 77W to SCL (IIRC or was it LIM?), because of its cargo capacity.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air Canada Cargo, Qantas Cargo, Air NZ Cargo?

Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:30 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 45):
I was told by a pilot that the B763 to Tel Aviv takes off at maximum weight most days with cargo left behind

I believe it. Max payload on this sector for a typical timetable day for a 763ER is about 26t ,fuel burn ~54t. Of this payload freight would be ~6t A 788 on the route would offer a max volume limited payload of ~34t with a fuel burn ~ 51t. Freight would be about 13 to 14t.
This series of airplane is going to change the whole character of the air freight industry with its ability to carry double what its predecessor could carry. It is truly going to take a round out of the dedicated freighters in my view. The incremental fuel cost is a little as 30 to 50c a kg depending on range.

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