BGM Falls Behind ELM And ITH

YQBexYHZBGM · Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:35 pm

The following is an excerpt from today's online edition of the Binghamton Press & Sun-Bulletin:

http://www.pressconnects.com/article...seek-new-routes-Binghamton-airport

Quote:
While officials have their hopes set high, the Binghamton airport’s flight activity figures are still stuck in a recession-driven slump that started in 2008.

Enplanements — the count of the number of passengers boarding flights —dropped 15 percent at the airport between 2007 and 2012, according to a Press & Sun-Bulletin analysis of U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics data.

As a result, Binghamton’s airport lost its status as the busiest in the Southern Tier, dropping behind the Ithaca and Elmira airports in enplanements starting in 2009.

The five-year period also showed broad changes in route popularity at the Greater Binghamton Airport, with a 40 percent increase in Detroit-bound passengers and a 25 percent increase in enplanements on flights to Washington, D.C. Those gains were offset by a 33 percent drop in passengers flying to Philadelphia.

As much as I regret to admit it, the cause is less likely to be a "recession-driven slump" than an overall decline of Binghamton as a regional manufacturing center. Those industries ain't comin' back, either. While there are bright spots, including Binghamton University, Binghamton and Endicott are pale shells of what they were when IBM was still a major presence in the area.

I am surprised that BGM has dropped behind ELM and ITH in traffic, though, since it is a larger city. I believe that Allegiant's service to ELM is largely responsible. ITH has steady traffic thanks to Cornell University and Ithaca College.

I can tell you what I believe is responsible for the 33% drop in passengers BGM-PHL, though, and it's not the state of BGM's economy. News flash for you, US Airways marketing and operations departments: when you replace CRJs with DH8s, passengers like me will choose to fly via another hub with another carrier if we can. The one exception would be passengers whose final destination is PHL, which most people from BGM would generally drive rather than fly anyway.

I reject the notion that it's a question of props being more economical on short flights. US (Air Wisconsin) still operates CRJs on PHL-ABE -- a distance of only 48 nm! Say what you will, swapping a jet for a prop represents a downgrade of the status of the route in the airline's network, and passengers who have a choice will take their business elsewhere.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

timpdx · Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:54 pm

You are missing the big employer that is keeping ELM up there, its closest to Corning HQ.

I am not surprised the Southern Tier's 2 biggest airports are ITH and ELM.

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 1):
You are missing the big employer that is keeping ELM up there, its closest to Corning HQ.
I am not surprised the Southern Tier's 2 biggest airports are ITH and ELM.

Corning Glass does keep the Corning / Elmira economy afloat to some degree, but if appearances are any indication, Elmira is in even worse economic shape than Binghamton (not to mention its population is smaller).

BGM was formerly the busiest airport of the three, and was even served by Eastern and TWA at various times, not to mention sizeable operations under Mohawk, Empire, Commuter Airlines and Brockway / Air North.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

RL757PVD · Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:12 am

BGM has been behind ITH and ELM for years now, this is not news. In all reality, these airports will probably continue to hover around similar levels and jockey back and forth for position as each has their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

The massive drop in PHL #'s is not unique to BGM with ELM and ITH having similar or worse numbers. US is essentially committing suicide in these markets with their service offerings and reliability. Each one of these airports could sustain a daily CLT flight year-round.

I don't see any one of the 3 leaving the others in the dust anytime soon.

teneriffe77 · Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:15 am

One thing I've noticed about BGM is that it's in the middle of nowhere compared to ITH, ELM, SYR, and AVP. All of those other airports are next to a major highway while BGM is accessible by a country road which adds considerable travel time.

RL757PVD · Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting teneriffe77 (Reply 4):

One thing I've noticed about BGM is that it's in the middle of nowhere compared to ITH, ELM, SYR, and AVP. All of those other airports are next to a major highway while BGM is accessible by a country road which adds considerable travel time.

That's entirely perception.. I can be from my bedroom downtown to past security in 20-25 minutes,

ELM has arguably the best access being right off the highway, however it is 15-25 min from Corning or Elmira depending on where you are coming from. So really its just the same just a matter of perception.

People that are going to use BGM aren't going to use another airport because of a 10 min drive up a hill (with a 55 mph speed limit).

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:49 am

Not to mention lack of service from BGM to NYC-area airports. I know this has been discussed before, and sorry to disappoint folks who have never lived in the region and are just looking at a map, but NYC is NOT just a "quick easy drive" away. Either route to NYC (via Scranton or NY17) is a gruelling drive, and the location of the three major airports all but guarantees running into a traffic jam -- definitely NOT the sort of thing one wants to encounter when has a flight to catch.

Driving to SYR for more service options was worth it prior to 2001 when you could show up 20 minutes prior to departure, but those days are long gone. Now, driving to SYR to get a flight to JFK on B6 just doesn't make sense in terms of time, given the 70 minute drive BGM-SYR and pre-boarding time.

DL gave up on its BGM-JFK service far too quickly, and it was poorly scheduled to begin with. There needs to be an early morning flight for business travelers, and a late afternoon flight to connect to TATL flights that depart JFK between 6 and 8 p.m.

Things were better when Mohawk and Empire were still around. Being able to fly YUL-SYR-BGM on Empire was a real benefit.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

RL757PVD · Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 6):

Not to mention lack of service from BGM to NYC-area airports

There is no real O&D market there IMHO, its a drive market, I can be parked in Manhattan within 3 hours.

The only NYC type of service that could be supported would be a hub like feed like what ITH and AVP have with EWR.

As far as ITH-EWR goes, I dont know if it is still the case, but rumor has it, it was not performing well and the reason it stuck around was Schumer. I would guess it is doing a little better now with US no longer on LGA.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 6):
Mohawk and Empire

The post 9/11 era of 2002-2004 is ancient history to the airlines today, making Mohawk and Empire like dinosaurs.

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 7):
There is no real O&D market there IMHO, its a drive market, I can be parked in Manhattan within 3 hours.

I have rarely gotten through New Jersey on I-80 without traffic or construction related delays, particularly between the 80/95/Turnpike merge and the George Washington Bridge. And, while you may be able to arrive in Manhattan, I used to travel regularly between BGM and Long Island. So, if by some slim chance I made it through New Jersey and the GWB without major delays, my luck would run out on the Cross Bronx Expressway. If I were making the trip as a business traveler rather than for family visits, there is no question I would have flown. I certainly could not have reached JFK or LGA without hitting traffic delays.

Quote:
The only NYC type of service that could be supported would be a hub like feed like what ITH and AVP have with EWR.

There would be substantial feed in traffic to TATL flights from JFK, if the flights to and from BGM were scheduled to meet them. DL's were not. Not to mention connecting passengers to/from Florida and Myrtle Beach, which get significant traffic from BGM, even in the summer.

Quote:
As far as ITH-EWR goes, I dont know if it is still the case, but rumor has it, it was not performing well and the reason it stuck around was Schumer. I would guess it is doing a little better now with US no longer on LGA.

My cousin flew ITH-LGA with CO in November 2012; not sure if that flight is still operating. All three airports traditionally had connections to EWR.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

Burj · Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 8):
My cousin flew ITH-LGA with CO in November 2012;

That would have been on US not CO.... ITH lost that service when US and DL did their LGA/DCA slot swaps....

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 6):
Either route to NYC (via Scranton or NY17) is a gruelling drive, and the location of the three major airports all but guarantees running into a traffic jam -- definitely NOT the sort of thing one wants to encounter when has a flight to catch.

Actually they have FINALLY been making progress on RTE-17 as it s l o w l y turns into I-86. The bridge/bypass at Parksville (near Liberty) is a dream! But this only helps if you are going to the NYC area as a destination....as far as driving to LGA/JFK for a flight, you are right it can still be a nightmare. Having said that, if there are several people going there to catch an international flight it often makes sense to drive instead of flying to save money and minimize the risk of mis-connecting flights.

It would be interesting to compare pricing between the various airports. I am fairly price sensitive and over the years have noticed that once ITH got CO (now UA) service in addition to DL and US that prices became VERY competitive there, especially in relations to SYR. In fact it is not unusual now for people to drive down from the SYR area to catch flights from ITH....this would have been unheard of a few years ago.

One big plus for ELM is they have first class cabins/service on some Delta flights to DTW. For people with status who can get an upgrade, a little bit of a drive to ELM is well worth it to avoid time in a CRJ-200 or Dash-8!

MaverickM11 · Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:40 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 7):
There is no real O&D market there IMHO, its a drive market, I can be parked in Manhattan within 3 hours.

That plus I think ELM/ITH are also wealthier than BGM. ITH is just barely far enough that it makes more sense to fly.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 8):
My cousin flew ITH-LGA with CO in November 2012; not sure if that flight is still operating. All three airports traditionally had connections to EWR.

Either they flew US to LGA or CO/UA to EWR. ITHLGA is no longer operating; US dropped it in the slot swap and DL did not pick it up. ITHLGA was never very full outside of the couple peak student travel weekends, so I'm amazed it lasted up to the slot swap in the first place.

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting Burj (Reply 9):
That would have been on US not CO.... ITH lost that service when US and DL did their LGA/DCA slot swaps....

It's possible that the first leg was on a US (Piedmont) aircraft, but her ticket was booked on CO for ITH-LGA-PHL, where we both met up with one another to fly PHL-PHX on US. She definitely arrived from LGA on a CO DH8. Her initial check-in at ITH was handled by CO, and they didn't assign her a seat for the US flight to PHX, which was full. Luckily, she made it on at the last minute due to a no-show.

Quote:
Actually they have FINALLY been making progress on RTE-17 as it s l o w l y turns into I-86. The bridge/bypass at Parksville (near Liberty) is a dream!

Parksville/Cooley has never been a major source of delays.

Quote:
But this only helps if you are going to the NYC area as a destination....as far as driving to LGA/JFK for a flight, you are right it can still be a nightmare.

It most definitely is a nightmare. We tended to go via 17 rather than Scranton due to perennial construction delays across New Jersey, and the aforementioned GWB delays. But, six of one, half dozen of another... by going with 17 you can end up in massive tie-ups where 17 dumps onto the Thruway, or at the Tappan Zee Bridge, and then the Deegan and RFK/Triboro (to reach LGA), or the Cross-Westchester and Whitestone (to reach JFK). All in all, if you leave Tioga County (between BGM and ELM, south of ITH) at a reasonable mid-morning hour, you are guaranteed to hit one or all of these nasty bottlenecks at the start of the afternoon rush hour! I and several family members have had cooling systems (and our nerves!) boil over in delays on the Tappan Zee Bridge -- not fun! And, once work starts to replace said bridge, traffic on the Thruway will be backed up clear to ALB!

Quote:
Having said that, if there are several people going there to catch an international flight it often makes sense to drive instead of flying to save money and minimize the risk of mis-connecting flights.

I know people who have flown SYR-YYZ-YVR-NRT on AC to avoid having to deal with getting to JFK, and the flights via DTW being too expensive. Granted, SYR-YYZ on a Beech is not my idea of a great way to start a marathon trip like that, but I suppose it's a short enough flight, who cares.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

timpdx · Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:08 am

I remember Mohawk. They even did ITH BOS at one point.

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 12):
I remember Mohawk. They even did ITH BOS at one point.

Yep, but then Allegheny acquired Mohawk and dismantled most of their network, with the exception of flights to their hub at PIT. Commuter Airlines, hubbed at BGM, filled in the gap to some degree, although with small props rather than BAC 1-11s. Empire restored many of Mohawk's routes within NY State, but with less frequency, and Empire had fewer destinations outside NY State than Mohawk did. Then, of course, Piedmont acquired Empire, and only kept the SYR hub in operation for a fairly short time before dismantling it. In retrospect, I think Piedmont may have just bought out Empire to get its hands on their F28 fleet. Either way, they all ended up under US Airways sooner or later, but NY State has never had the same frequency or route coverage since.

-Al YQBexYHZBGM

jfidler · Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:22 am

Interesting information. I flew DCA-SYR on US last week to go to a meeting in ITH, because the direct flight to SYR was much cheaper than the connecting flight to ITH, even when factoring in the cost of a rental car.

SYR airport was modern, convenient, and had a decent offering of services for an airport of its size. I was pleasantly surprised. I wonder how the others in the area compare -- I have yet to visit them.

MaverickM11 · Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 12):
I remember Mohawk. They even did ITH BOS at one point.

US was doing that well into the early 2000s...BOS, IAD, PHL, PIT, LGA, something in upstate NY maybe too?

USAirALB · Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):

ITH/ELM/BGM all had US service to ALB prior to 9/11.

MCOflyer · Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:44 am

As someone who flew into the airport (ELM) regularly from 87 till 08, I will tell you most of the morning flights went out full. I flew MCO-PHL-ELM and noticed a few people from FL connecting to that flight. My favorite flights were when they were operated by the DC-9 or Fokker 100's in the 90's. From 2000-4 I flew on the Dash 8's and Dornier 328's. I'll tell you, the demand is there for a CR7 or CR9 service to PHL out of ELM.

KH

MaverickM11 · Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
ITH/ELM/BGM all had US service to ALB prior to 9/11.

Wasn't that on Commutair though?

Burj · Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 11):
Parksville/Cooley has never been a major source of delays.

Maybe not traffic delays, but slowing down and occasionally getting stuck at that stop light definitely took time!

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 11):
And, once work starts to replace said bridge, traffic on the Thruway will be backed up clear to ALB!

I cross the bridge pretty regularly and have been keeping tabs....there is a good chance that a replacement bridge will be built parallel to the current one which will (fingers crossed) minimized the nightmare....

Quoting jfidler (Reply 14):
SYR airport was modern, convenient, and had a decent offering of services for an airport of its size. I was pleasantly surprised. I wonder how the others in the area compare -- I have yet to visit them.

One big plus for SYR is they recently completed a very expensive renovation that created a central security checkpoint between the A and B concourses and (much to my glee) it has a line for elite/first class passengers! This is a HUGE plus!

However if you are coming to Ithaca it can not be overstated how super convenient it is to fly in/out of ITH!

I know this has been discussed quite a bit, but it always strikes me as odd (but fortunate for the consumer) that there are so many choices in a relatively small area for a relatively small population.

YQBexYHZBGM · Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:08 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 14):
SYR airport was modern, convenient, and had a decent offering of services for an airport of its size. I was pleasantly surprised. I wonder how the others in the area compare -- I have yet to visit them.

Glad to hear you enjoyed it, but recall SYR was once a hub, and has recently undergone a major renovation, as stated by Burj. The other three are quite small. I have not been to ELM's terminal building in some time, so I'll leave it to others to comment on the amenities there. ITH has the newest terminal building of the three. BGM's is the original buidling from 1957. Ceilings are low throughout. The airline check in and rental car counters have been renovated somewhat to appear like scaled-down versions of a larger airport. Overall amenities are minimal. Well into the 1980s, the entire terminal was basically a big open hall -- you could walk right over to the rear wall adjacent to the ramps without going through security.

-Al

Burj · Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 20):
ITH has the newest terminal building of the three.

The airport management has worked to try to make ITH a community asset and has done things like hosted art shows in the landside part of the terminal.

Landside there is a cafe with table and chairs that overlook the apron. There is another seating area that would not be out of place in many airline lounges.

Airside the cafe has setup a stand with coffee and snacks on the honor system for paying.
http://instagram.com/p/dcqvPfNTQq/

milesrich · Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 2):
Corning Glass does keep the Corning / Elmira economy afloat to some degree, but if appearances are any indication, Elmira is in even worse economic shape than Binghamton (not to mention its population is smaller).

BGM was formerly the busiest airport of the three, and was even served by Eastern and TWA at various times, not to mention sizeable operations under Mohawk, Empire, Commuter Airlines and Brockway / Air North.

TWA pulled out of BGM in 1966, and never served the airport with jet aircraft. Their final schedules had one flight each way, PIT-IPT-AVP-BGM-ALB-BOS with an L-749. In 1962, they operated another flight nonstop to BGM from PIT with an L-1049G. Eastern's service to BGM came from Colonial Airlines, and they operated Martin 404 and later Convair 440's, along with an occasional Connie on a route from SYR to DCA via BGM-AVP-PHL. I believe in the middle to late 60's before these routes went away in about 1970 with the Convair retirement, an Electra was used for one trip a day. Mohawk and Allegheny offered good service from Upstate NY to many destinations.

Until 1966, ELM was served by United who picked up the route from Capital. BUF-ROC-ELM-IPT twice a day with one flight operating IPT-PHL and another IPT-HAR-DCA before MDT-Olmstead AFB became Harrisburg's commercial airport. Eastern also served RDG as did TWA although the IPT-BGM service lasted a few years longer, and Eastern also served Lancaster, PA.

panam330 · Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting jfidler (Reply 14):
SYR airport was modern, convenient, and had a decent offering of services for an airport of its size. I was pleasantly surprised. I wonder how the others in the area compare -- I have yet to visit them.

The new central security area is wonderful - and had been long overdue. The fingers, as of the last time I flew through in early July, were still rather nasty and devoid of pretty much any decent concession. ROC, BUF and ALB all have MUCH nicer/newer terminals. We just never got lucky enough, I guess.

prosa · Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting Burj (Reply 19):
And, once work starts to replace said [Tappan Zee] bridge, traffic on the Thruway will be backed up clear to ALB!

I cross the bridge pretty regularly and have been keeping tabs....there is a good chance that a replacement bridge will be built parallel to the current one which will (fingers crossed) minimized the nightmare....

It is my understanding that the new bridge indeed will be parallel to the existing one and that there will be no lane reductions.
Which doesn't change the fact that driving from the Southern Tier to any of the NYC airports under even the slightest time pressure is a very risky proposition, as traffic jams can arise at any time. If you absolutely must make your flight you'd have to allow for a minimum of two hours in excess of the "normal" driving time.

Burj · Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:42 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 24):
Which doesn't change the fact that driving from the Southern Tier to any of the NYC airports under even the slightest time pressure is a very risky proposition, as traffic jams can arise at any time. If you absolutely must make your flight you'd have to allow for a minimum of two hours in excess of the "normal" driving time.

Agreed! One nice thing is that there is a large outlet mall near EWR so when I've flown out of EWR with officemates we just left REALLY early so there would be no stress if there was bad traffic OR go visit the mall for some shopping if we got there and had plenty of time...

USAirALB · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Wasn't that on Commutair though?

Yes, but US flew it first.

prosa · Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting Burj (Reply 25):
One nice thing is that there is a large outlet mall near EWR so when I've flown out of EWR with officemates we just left REALLY early so there would be no stress if there was bad traffic OR go visit the mall for some shopping if we got there and had plenty of time...

There's now a highly successful gambling casino at Aqueduct Racetrack just a couple of subway stops away from JFK. It might be quite useful, for the same reason.

YQBexYHZBGM · Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:08 pm

Does anyone see any hope for new destinations from any of the three airports?
Allegiant serving BGM-Florida, perhaps?
US from BGM to DCA to compete with UA's flights to IAD?

I've always thought a flight from BGM to YTZ or YYZ would do well, both in terms of origin / destination traffic and international connections. I've met plenty of people in the Southern Tier who view Toronto as an ideal shopping / sports / entertainment destination. But, given that AC already operates SYR-YYZ, I suppose they could just drive the extra 70 miles. Those flights are expensive, however, and they're on Beeches.

Are you listening, Porter Airlines?

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

RL757PVD · Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 28):

Does anyone see any hope for new destinations from any of the three airports?
Allegiant serving BGM-Florida, perhaps?
US from BGM to DCA to compete with UA's flights to IAD?

I think someone will eventually step in with BGM-Florida, whether its a G4 or a NK. G4 has shown a willingness to serve nearby airports. GRR and LAN are much closer than BGM and ELM, both served by G4.

Regarding DCA, markets like BGM do not get the luxury of competition on markets, heck, competitive markets for much larger airports like BUF ROC and ALB, the number of competitive markets can be counted on one hand.

For BGM the best opportunities are

CLT - absolute no brainer, this could be 2x daily, will serve a strong US FF base and complement the predominant north/south traffic flow from the region.

ORD - AA or UA, post merger, this may be another way to re-capture their FF base, or for UA to expand theirs via a large hub.

ATL - Long term I think ATL could be in the cards, for the same reasons as CLT regarding the traffic flows.

Those 3 plus the potential less than daily Florida service and I think you pretty much have the 10-year window covered, outside of those things within 10 years you need a wish and a prayer. I think that same list applies to both ITH and ELM.

YQBexYHZBGM · Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:35 pm

Any hope for BOS (mainly for TATL or New England connections)?
Mohawk, Commuter Airlines, and others have done it in the past.

-Al

RL757PVD · Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 30):
Any hope for BOS (mainly for TATL or New England connections)?
Mohawk, Commuter Airlines, and others have done it in the past.

Again, anything those airlines in the past have done is night and day different from the industry today.

The only way any southern tier airport will get BOS service is if BOS is a hub for someone if if 9K could manage to make it work (222nm is a stretch for them, not for the aircraft).

If 9K could do BOS-BGM I think it'd be a huge success.

Burj · Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:15 am

In terms of new routes.... It would be interesting to see if Delta would do ITH-LGA. With Cornell's new campus in NYC there could be decent O/D demand, and with Delta's hub at LGA, a ITH-LGA flight could help feed LGA from central NY....

Alas I don't know if they have the right aircraft for the route and a LGA slot might be better used for a different route.

It would be interesting if Delta could make a ITH or BGM or ELM to ATL flight work.

KCZG · Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:56 am

I never thought I'd see the day when there was this much interest in BGM. Anyway, here's my take on things up here (I've been working atop this hill for over 5 years now).

US- I can see us getting service down to CLT in the near future on either a CRJ or CR7. Hopefully 2X daily, one around 0545, and another early afternoon. As for the PHL flights, I hope we get the CRJs back soon. I miss the PSA jets, they ran for about a month last year for one turn a day, and only had a handful of delays. They're also a lot nicer inside than the ZW jets. Hopefully we could at least get the big Piedmont Dash 8-300s back again.

DL- With the phasing out of the CR2 fleet, I can see DTW going to 2X CR7 a day, the loads could certainly support it. Hopefully they'll throw us a bone and send a CR7 to ATL once or twice a day. I know about 5 FF who would jump at the chance to fly in F to either city. After all, the last time DL flew to ATL they were always packed.

UA- I can see UA adding ORD one of these days. It would be nice to get jets to IAD again, but we'll see what happens.

As for flying to JFK/EWR/LGA, I don't see it working out. We're just too close to the City. When DL tried it, they failed and pulled out altogether before the NW merger. On a regular basis we get forward bags from passengers who flew to one of those airports, filed a claim, and drove up here.

YQBexYHZBGM · Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting KCZG (Reply 33):
I never thought I'd see the day when there was this much interest in BGM. Anyway, here's my take on things up here (I've been working atop this hill for over 5 years now).

Cool, KCZG! In that case, I'll repeat my own post from https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5840190/, which described SNA as "America's Scariest Airport:"

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM:
I dunno about SNA, but I've often heard that my former home airport, BGM, is either thrill-inducing or scary depending on one's perspective. The approach isn't that complicated, but the airport is literally built on top of a mountain, with EMAS and huge approach light structures beyond the ends of the runways. Attain normal rate of climb or it's a long way down...

I didn't think of it until now, but in addition to the limited availability of unobstructed approaches if the airport had been built at a lower elevation, perhaps BGM was built on Mount Ettrick to keep it above the fog of "Gloom County!"

However, I've seen the airfield heavily fogged in as well, so perhaps not.

Greetings from a former Tioga County boy,
Al

kcrwflyer · Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Thread starter):
I can tell you what I believe is responsible for the 33% drop in passengers BGM-PHL, though, and it's not the state of BGM's economy. News flash for you, US Airways marketing and operations departments: when you replace CRJs with DH8s, passengers like me will choose to fly via another hub with another carrier if we can. The one exception would be passengers whose final destination is PHL, which most people from BGM would generally drive rather than fly anyway.

If you are implying that the passengers leaving BGM are picking other airlines because US went to a DH8 from a CRJ then BGM must still have too many seats in the market. You're talking about a flight that's all of 45 minutes on a DH1.

Are you telling me that the former US passengers were so afraid of the Dash 8 100 than they're instead opting for UA's Dash 8 200 down to IAD? I could side with you on this if another airline there was offering a superior plane or a premium cabin competing for the same traffic flows.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Thread starter):
I reject the notion that it's a question of props being more economical on short flights. US (Air Wisconsin) still operates CRJs on PHL-ABE -- a distance of only 48 nm! Say what you will, swapping a jet for a prop represents a downgrade of the status of the route in the airline's network, and passengers who have a choice will take their business elsewhere.

You're rejecting a notion that's been mathematically proven. That said, you still get jets on very short legs sometimes because they'd otherwise be sitting on the ground. Yes, people prefer jets over props. Anyone will bitch about a CR2 until you roll up a prop to the gate. Then everyone thinks they're boarding a 1950's designed machine simply because it has a propeller. In a very competitive market, I can see jets having an advantage over props in certain situations. BGM isn't one of those places. If the market for the service is there, they should be boarding whatever is bookable.

Quoting Burj (Reply 9):
One big plus for ELM is they have first class cabins/service on some Delta flights to DTW. For people with status who can get an upgrade, a little bit of a drive to ELM is well worth it to avoid time in a CRJ-200 or Dash-8!

That I can agree with.

Quoting KCZG (Reply 33):
After all, the last time DL flew to ATL they were always packed.

Why'd it go away?

KCZG · Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:51 pm

ATL went away because DL switched BGM over to JFK service which promptly failed, and they left the market. At one point they also flew to CVG as well, I just can't remember if this was during the ATL time frame or not. I'll ask some of the former Comair folks up here.

YQBexYHZBGM · Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:05 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 35):
If you are implying that the passengers leaving BGM are picking other airlines because US went to a DH8 from a CRJ then BGM must still have too many seats in the market. You're talking about a flight that's all of 45 minutes on a DH1.

Are you telling me that the former US passengers were so afraid of the Dash 8 100 than they're instead opting for UA's Dash 8 200 down to IAD? I could side with you on this if another airline there was offering a superior plane or a premium cabin competing for the same traffic flows.

Obviously, if the passenger's final destination is PHL or IAD, or if they wish to connect to other flights on US or UA, they will still take these flights even if they're props. But, if my final destination is west of DTW, I'll choose the DL flight on a CRJ over PHL and IAD unless the price difference is considerable.

Also, given that ELM, ITH, and SYR are in relatively close proximity, if one lives somewhere in the middle between them, as I did, one can choose one of the other airports to get a jet flight. For example, the last flight of the night into both ITH and BGM from PHL used to be a CR2, and they both left within 10 minutes of one another, often from adjacent gates. Now that the BGM flight is a DH8, I'd fly into ITH instead.

Granted, the difference in cabin amenities between a CRJ and a turboprop is minor in the case of the flights we're talking about here. In contrast, in Atlantic Canada, where the flight may be on a B1900D, there is a significant difference in cabin comfort. In that case, I have changed my schedule to get a flight on a CRJ or DH8 rather than a Beech.

I guess my aversion to props is mainly during thunderstorms and turbulent weather. Jets can get tossed around too (especially the smaller ones), but because they fly at higher altitudes even on short legs such as these, it's a little less harrowing.

Al

[Edited 2013-09-06 13:11:10]

Burj · Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:28 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 37):
I guess my aversion to props is mainly during thunderstorms and turbulent weather. Jets can get tossed around too (especially the smaller ones), but because they fly at higher altitudes even on short legs such as these, it's a little less harrowing.

I'll add that, fair or not, the reputation of turboprops in the area took a HUGE hit after the Colgan (Continental) crash near BUF... There are people who will not fly on anything other than a jet and are willing to drive further (ROC or SYR) to avoid turbo props.

YQBexYHZBGM · Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:02 am

Quoting Burj (Reply 38):
I'll add that, fair or not, the reputation of turboprops in the area took a HUGE hit after the Colgan (Continental) crash near BUF... There are people who will not fly on anything other than a jet and are willing to drive further (ROC or SYR) to avoid turbo props.

That too. The props -do- spend several minutes longer at altitudes where icing conditions are likely during the descent. In addition, while I'm not an aeronautical engineer, it would seem to me that hot bleed air from the engines that prevents ice from forming on the wings of the jet would be more effective than inflatable deicing boots that knock accumulations of ice that have already formed off the flight surfaces of the turboprop.

UPNYGuy · Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:31 pm

Those people that refuse to fly on anything other than a TP will not have any air service left to communities like ITH and BGM in roughly 10-15 years, coming from an upstate New Yorker.

YQBexYHZBGM · Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:07 pm

Quoting UPNYGuy (Reply 40):
Those people that refuse to fly on anything other than a TP will not have any air service left to communities like ITH and BGM in roughly 10-15 years, coming from an upstate New Yorker.

I think you're right, UPNYGuy. Between the end of Mohawk and the heyday of Empire when most of their flights were on F28s, these airports were served almost exclusively by props, and mostly older 1950s era models at that. Allegheny eventually introduced one or two daily flights to PIT on a DC9. After PI absorbed Empire, it was back to props (once again, many older models were still in service until the DH8s arrived), until there were finally enough CR2s in service to send them to smaller cities like BGM and ITH.

I will again paraphrase the magazine article I read in response to the crash of MQ 4184, due to icing on an ATR-72, in 1994: No one could have foreseen a time when rising fuel prices would bring an early end to the jet age. This incident happened before the introduction of the RJs, on what was normally a mainline route operated with jets. The introduction of the RJs forestalled the end of the jet age on non-mainline routes for a few more years, but it looks like we're there now, as the CR2s and ERJ-135s are pulled down for economic reasons. It's too bad.

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

Mainliner · Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting UPNYGuy (Reply 40):
Those people that refuse to fly on anything other than a TP will not have any air service left to communities like ITH and BGM in roughly 10-15 years, coming from an upstate New Yorker.

Exactly. These people can gripe and moan all they want, but when they're looking for their cheap fares to MCO every two years, they get what they pay for. I'm astounded by the number of people who think they're entitled to jet service. If someone is so afraid of turboprops, then there's always Greyhound.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Thread starter):
I reject the notion that it's a question of props being more economical on short flights. US (Air Wisconsin) still operates CRJs on PHL-ABE -- a distance of only 48 nm! Say what you will, swapping a jet for a prop represents a downgrade of the status of the route in the airline's network, and passengers who have a choice will take their business elsewhere.

You really think that's by choice? They have to operate them somewhere because they're locked into an agreement with Air Wisconsin for those planes. Prior to all the Piedmont DH3's being moved to the CLT market, they were almost the sole aircraft used on the PHL-ABE flights, and they were always full. US simply needed something with 50 seats in that market. There's no way it's economical.

RL757PVD · Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:08 pm

I know many people who have used the turboprops at BGM in recently years including some who are not exactly comfortable with the concept of flying, and NOT ONE has complained about having to fly on a turbo prop vs jet.

The issue for all of these airports has been and will continue to be reliability and this is most certainly true for PHL and US.

The reliability issue is somewhat connected to the prop's as they tend to be first on the chopping block when weather gets bad.

If PHL was a more efficient hub, props would work just fine for both airport and passenger.

itrade · Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:06 pm

And now UA announces ORD-ELM.

RL757PVD · Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 44):

And now UA announces ORD-ELM.

UA has an interesting approach for the Southern Tier with a different hub for each airport and no airport having more than one hub (yet).

BatonOps · Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:21 pm

Hopefully ITH will be the next to see ORD service. There was an article in the local paper several weeks ago that the airport was in discussion with AA for service to ORD and US to CLT.

kith · Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 45):
UA has an interesting approach for the Southern Tier with a different hub for each airport and no airport having more than one hub (yet).

Maybe....there are also specific reasons to serve each airport to that specific hub individually that they did. BGM has strong ties to the federal government through IBM and Lockheed Martin in BGM and nearby Owego so IAD service makes sense.

ITH given its college campuses and tech focus has strong international demand (EWR-TATL/TPAC) with DTW on DL also serving TPAC and TCON markets well.

ELM has recently benefited hugely from the resource boom (fracking) across the state-line in Pennsylvania and itself sits on the Marcellus Shale gas area. On DL, ITH at 3x CRJ and BGM at 2x CRJ's has not changed their DTW service significantly recently, ELM however went from similar schedules as BGM, then ITH now to more service than SYR to DTW on CR7's and E170's.

-KITH

RL757PVD · Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting kith (Reply 47):
KITH

Those are near exactly the reasons for each, no one airport can really cover the other, each has their own unique niche strength.

Burj · Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 42):
Exactly. These people can gripe and moan all they want, but when they're looking for their cheap fares to MCO every two years, they get what they pay for. I'm astounded by the number of people who think they're entitled to jet service. If someone is so afraid of turboprops, then there's always Greyhound.

If the choice is prop service or no service than of course people will "suck it up" and get on the prop.... But there are definitely people who have a choice of airports and are willing to drive a little further, pay a little more, or both, to go to SYR or ROC for jet service to avoid props from the smaller area airports....

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 46):
Hopefully ITH will be the next to see ORD service. There was an article in the local paper several weeks ago that the airport was in discussion with AA for service to ORD and US to CLT.

ITH to ORD would be awesome! I could see this working of UA for sure since ITH to DTW works for Delta. I've always wondered by AA never looked into more Upstate service. With the possible US merger it makes sense now to wait and see...but pre merger it could have been a profitable market for AA....

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