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a321luke
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Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:51 am

Considering the newly announced AUS-LHR route that BA is going to fly, and Emirates considering a new city, is it possible that DTW can add (or regain) more international non-stop service? Many airlines used to fly to DTW, but discontinued service to DTW. Also, is the city declaring bankruptcy scaring airlines away from the city?

Some possible candidates:

AM - DTW-MEX
BA - DTW-LHR
CA - DTW-PEK
EK - DTW-DXB
EY: DTW-AUH
JL: DTW-NRT
KE: DTW-ICN
KL - DTW-AMS
LX - DTW-ZRH
MS - DTW-CAI
MU - DTW-PVG
NH - DTW-NRT
OZ - DTW-ICN
TK - DTW-IST
QR: DTW-DOH
WS - DTW-YYC

With some truly game changing aircraft like the B787 and A350, can DTW be a viable route for many airlines to fly to? Only AC, AF, LH, and RJ serve the airport currently, and it seems like a massive waste to not use the two beautiful, state of the art terminals DTW has at full capacity. The airport, IMHO, has a lot of potential.

Quite a few of the airlines listed used to serve the routes above. Will they ever come back?

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thekennady
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:51 am

DTW serving a bankrupt city certianly doesnt help and with a large FF base and many companies having contracts with DL, there is not a whole lot of room for foreign carriers to enter DTW. The primary INTL gateway to the midwest is ORD and there are also hubs futher east of DTW that offer connections. DL covers Asia and Europe pretty well from DTW through nonstops and connections at alliance hubs. Detroit has a sizeable middle eastern population but the gulf carriers hubs are a little further east than Jordan, Lebanon ETC. DL has no need to expand to latin America because ATL can cover that for them. DTW pretty much has what it can sustain for now...i could see a few of the routes you mentioned happening such as EK to DXB or a chance of TK to IST to capitolize off the demand to the middle east.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:04 am

Short answer is no. Only remote possibility in near future(3-5 years) is TK DTW-IST. EK/EY/QR have backtracking disadvantage.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:45 am

If AA/BA ever start using 75Ls on LHR point to point routes, DTW would certainly be a candidate. For its size and its general economic malaise, DTW has pretty strong international demand. It's true that DL saps up a lot of that demand, but I'm not convinced that there is not some room for more players to Europe.
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FSDan
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:38 pm

Here is my take:

AM - DTW-MEX - already covered by DL, unlikely to happen on AM since ORD is nearby
BA - DTW-LHR - possible (has been flown in the recent past), but probably not the highest destination on BA's wish list
CA - DTW-PEK - unlikely, as DL serves this and DTW is a SkyTeam hub - not enough O&D
EK - DTW-DXB - quite possible - EK has stated that they will double their US destinations in the next 3-5 years
EY: DTW-AUH - possible, but unlikely - DL and EY are cooperating more, but EY serves ORD just down the road
JL: DTW-NRT - unlikely as DTW is a SkyTeam hub and DL already serves this
KE: DTW-ICN - possible, but unlikely - DL already serves this
KL - DTW-AMS - possible - from time to time KL has operated this route as part of the JV
LX - DTW-ZRH - very unlikely - no demand, ORD already served, DTW is a SkyTeam hub, etc.
MS - DTW-CAI - unlikely - DTW is a SkyTeam hub
MU - DTW-PVG - possible, but unlikely since DL already serves this and the two airlines don't have a JV
NH - DTW-NRT - unlikely as DTW is a SkyTeam hub and DL already serves this
OZ - DTW-ICN - unlikely as DTW is a SkyTeam hub and DL already serves this
TK - DTW-IST - likely - TK has mentioned this as a possible future route
QR: DTW-DOH - likely - QR has mentioned this as a possible future route
WS - DTW-YYC - unlikely - very little demand

Basically, you can hope for Middle East carriers (at least one or two of these will come in the next few years) and switches within DL's JV (i.e. KL). Beyond that, DTW is pretty well served already, and very few non-SkyTeam airlines would be interested in flying there.

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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:03 pm

I think there is a semi 'Gold Rush' by international carriers feasting on U.S. destinations that our own flag carriers aren't interested in. Our own carriers have a few hub cities they focus on here in the states, leaving many good cities (Boston being one) ripe for the picking when it comes to international service.

The other side of the coin is that these international flag carriers represent countries that depend on tourism. They want U.S. citizens passing through their airports and spending money in their cities/countries. If United or Delta or American won't do it, then it is incumbent on Turkish (or whomever) to provide that lift. Indeed, when the 787 first went on sale, international carriers were a whole lot quicker to buy them than our own airlines were.

This is a rather long-winded way of saying that, yes, Detroit has some chance to attract international flag carriers not already there. But it's like a jigsaw puzzle to figure out which routes/destinations (A) make business sense and (B) aren't already swallowed up by Delta.
 
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coronado
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:22 pm

I think the most likely will be seasonal Virgin Atlantic service to LHR as the JV with Delta gets worked out. A natural Virgin 747 route during the summer months downgauged to a Delta 763 or 764 during the winter months.
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:22 pm

My bet is that any Intl adds DTW sees in the near future will be DL and not the array of Intl carriers you are hoping for.  
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:33 pm

Ford has a large development center in the UK, and GM owns Vauxhall UK. Other than that, I don't see much upfront demand for BA to add a flight to DTW. DL should have plenty of capacity to serve the O&D. Transfers to the ME might be different, but AF/KL should serve those needs just fine, along with RJ.
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michman
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:40 pm

Not a new flight, but I noticed that LH has up-guaged to a 346 on the DTW-FRA route for the last week or so (from the typical 333 or 343 you normally see).
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:50 pm

I disagree with two of your points.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
AM - DTW-MEX - already covered by DL, unlikely to happen on AM since ORD is nearby

Chicago is over five hours away from Detroit on a good day (and in a different time zone), then add another hour to get to O'Hare, which is too far to really be considered nearby. You can shave an hour off that if you use the Skyway, but then you're paying. Between the Kennedy Expressway, the Tristate Tollway, and I-94, It's a no go. The two cities have very different Hispanic demographics--Chicago is close to 30% Hispanic, Detroit 3%, and the entire Metropolitan Detroit is less than 5% Hispanic. That is why this route doesn't get served by AM.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
QR: DTW-DOH - likely - QR has mentioned this as a possible future route

Again I disagree. There isn't a substantial Indian population in Detroit (which drives the ME3's flow from North America) and it's a backtrack for the existing Middle Eastern population.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:58 pm

How well is the new North Terminal served? Each time I fly into/out of DTW on UA/US is during the morning and early afternoon and there isn't much activity compared to the size of the terminal. Even if there are several UA CRJ/ERJs at the gates it still doesn't look busy. North Terminal could certainly use some extra international services
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 10):
it's a backtrack for the existing Middle Eastern population.

Except for the Yemeni's, which make up 9% of the Arab population of the greater Detroit area. According to Wiki, it seems like they might not be the highest yielding population.

Quote:
A survery of Arab Americans in the Detroit area after 9/11 found that Yemenis made up 9% of the area's Arab population and that Yemenis had the largest families, the lowest rate of business ownership (3% compared to 20% for other Arab groups), and a the highest rate of employment in "trades" as opposed to services, administration, professional or sales (43 percent in trades compared to 7 to 17 percent for other Arabs groups).[4] Anthropologist Loukia K. Sarroub while investigating the Dearborn Yemeni culture through the perspective of 6 high-school age girls noted that the community was "a ghetto-like enclave of Dearborn" and a "'Yemeni village' in the United States" where "this community continued to live much as they did in Yemen"
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
How well is the new North Terminal served? Each time I fly into/out of DTW on UA/US is during the morning and early afternoon and there isn't much activity compared to the size of the terminal. Even if there are several UA CRJ/ERJs at the gates it still doesn't look busy. North Terminal could certainly use some extra international services

It is very well served. Unlike McNamara terminal there is nothing much to do in terms of shop & dine. So everyone quickly exits the terminal.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):

EK/QR/EY possibility is remote. ME diaspora has to deal with 2 1/2 backtrack. DTW-India PDEW is 125, most may be using ORD/NYC now. EK/EY cannot fill a A332, same goes for QR B788.

So TK is well positioned.
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 1):
DTW serving a bankrupt city certianly doesnt help

Impressive that it took only 1 reply to trot out this well-worn and completely subjective talking point.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 10):
Detroit 3%, and the entire Metropolitan Detroit is less than 5% Hispanic.

I need to correct that stat. Detroit proper is 6.8% Hispanic of any race. I misread the statistic as Hispanic whites being 3%. My apologies.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 14):
Impressive that it took only 1 reply to trot out this well-worn and completely subjective talking point.

Yes, amazing. That's all people outside of Michigan know about the city. It's Detroit Metro airport, the airport doesn't just serve the city limits of Detroit, which yes, is bankrupt. 15 of the 20 Fortune 500 companies in Michigan are within a 30-40 minute drive of DTW including Ford and GM (which is actually based downtown bankrupt Detroit) and both are in the top 10.

I do think looking at that list of possibilities, the one that has the best shot at reality is TK to IST. Some of those other ones would be cool but I think it's a stretch with how many alliances and ventures there are now.
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thekennady
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 14):

I simply said it doesnt help. DTW has connections and is well served as it is. Ive been to Detroit and its not that bad, still a major business city and a large metro area to boot. But you would be incorrect to tell me that the economics of a city are not looked at when a potential airline is looking to serve there.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 17):

Huh? I think all people are saying is what does it matter that the city of Detroit is bankrupt. Last time I checked, Cincinnati hasn't declared bankruptcy, yet which hub has been cut more? DTW is obviously still doing well for DL. And while the city may be bankrupt, they're also going to build a new arena for the Red Wings, so there's still some money coming from somewhere. And again it's a moot point - the money in the Detroit area is in the burbs, not the city proper.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:25 pm

First of all, welcome to the a.net community!  

Another possible candidate I see:

FI - KEF-DTW. In line with Icelandair's current status, and FI's route manager has mentioned to me that Detroit is a possibility. He said the same about YEG a year ago and look what happened there.  

Having said that, I'd expect some other US and maybe Canadian destinations before Detroit.

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PHX787
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:34 pm

Welcome- lemme give you my ideas on your suggestions....

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
NH - DTW-NRT
Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
JL: DTW-NRT

Won't happen....the DL 744 flight is being downgauged soon, and DTW is not a hub for star alliance or oneworld.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
KE: DTW-ICN

MAYBE....I can see this going if DL downgauges their flight to ICN.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
QR: DTW-DOH

This is one of the flights I see as almost an inevitability, given the demographics. With QR getting more 787s I can see this added in a few years.
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zrs70
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:36 pm

Ever is a long time. My thought is that someday, there will be new service.
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 16):
Yes, amazing. That's all people outside of Michigan know about the city. It's Detroit Metro airport, the airport doesn't just serve the city limits of Detroit, which yes, is bankrupt. 15 of the 20 Fortune 500 companies in Michigan are within a 30-40 minute drive of DTW including Ford and GM (which is actually based downtown bankrupt Detroit) and both are in the top 10.

The city of Detroit seems to be the only thing many out of state people equate with the entire state of Michigan. We western Michigan folks especially resent this..... we're in a whole other world- just ask all the people from Illinois who vacation and have second homes here.
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thekennady
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 18):
a new arena for the Red Wings, so there's still some money coming from somewhere. And again it's a moot point

Do sport teams really contribute to a cities economy? what if that money instead went to other things like education, housing developments, better infrastructure Etc? How can a point be moot when it involves economics? A lot of people have egotism invested in where they are from or where they live so they defend it like its something they own. Its ok, Detroit is still a major hub for business but wont be seeing much INTL expansion out of DTW anytime soon.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting thekennady (Reply 17):
But you would be incorrect to tell me that the economics of a city are not looked at when a potential airline is looking to serve there.

Sure, but the bankruptcy has basically nothing to do with the economics of metro Detroit.
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:30 pm

Regardless of the "backtracking disadvantage," the Gulf carriers would do well to serve Detroit based on its (actually Dearborn's) large Middle Eastern population. The Gulf hubs are also an easier transit point for flights to India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka than LHR.

The bankruptcy of the City of Detroit as a municipal entity just doesn't play into it. The Metropolitan Detroit / Southeast Michigan region is still one of the most populated metropolitan areas in the US. It still has a substantial affluent population and business base, even though the dream of the ever-increasing standard of living for automobile assembly workers is essentially over.

Since we're talking international flights from DTW, DL needs to find a way to reduce its fares on flights from DTW to YHZ, YQB and YUL. I would connect via DTW every time if I could, but DL's prices on the Canadian leg of the itinerary are so high that US, UA or AC win out every time.

Al YQBexYHZBGM

[Edited 2013-09-04 10:33:20]

[Edited 2013-09-04 10:35:36]

[Edited 2013-09-04 10:36:52]

[Edited 2013-09-04 10:38:11]
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
WS - DTW-YYC

Highly unlikely this will ever happen, absolutely no demand to support these flights. Maybe a codeshare with DL out of LGA but other than that it won't happen
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:10 pm

How about AC operating DTW-YYZ with a better aircraft (at least a CRJ)?
A B1900D? Puh-leeze. Given that choice, I flew into YQG on a DH8 instead.

After they absorbed Canadian, this route was operated using F28s for at least a certain period.

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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 22):
The city of Detroit seems to be the only thing many out of state people equate with the entire state of Michigan. We western Michigan folks especially resent this..... we're in a whole other world- just ask all the people from Illinois who vacation and have second homes here.

Well I live in Texas and I for one do not equate the entire state to Detroit. Western Michigan on the shore is among the most beautiful country I have ever seen. I really want to go to the UP. I think the state has a lot going for it.
With that being said, I don't see why it can't continue to be a thriving hub. Connectivity is the issue. I wouldn't want to be someone who was trying to begin service intrastate, but I think DTW is a great airport.
 
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
AM - DTW-MEX
Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
EK - DTW-DXB
Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
TK - DTW-IST

Of all of your ideas, these seem like the most plausible.
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 6):
I think the most likely will be seasonal Virgin Atlantic service to LHR as the JV with Delta gets worked out. A natural Virgin 747 route during the summer months downgauged to a Delta 763 or 764 during the winter months.

DL is more likely to add a 2nd daily flight on a 763 or 764 instead of upgauging to a single 744.
Its already been stated that DL desires a 2nd DTW-LHR flight. They had done 10x weekly in the past.
They want to add a 2nd flight with an earlier arrival into LHR.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
AM - DTW-MEX

- No likely as most of the traffic is US / DTW originating traffic, that is more likely to use DL. Plus, DL has now increased DTW-MEX to 11x weekly.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
BA - DTW-LHR

- No likely to return. There are very limited business ties between Southeastern Michigan and London. Almost no UK-originating VFR / leisure traffic to DTW either.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
JL: DTW-NRT

- No, DL has this one locked-up.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
KE: DTW-ICN

- No, DL has this one locked-up.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
KL - DTW-AMS

- Falls under the DL/AF/KL Joint venture. Only if DL needs to swap out an AMS flight with KLM metal. Generally, DL will operate most flights from their US hubs to AMS.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
NH - DTW-NRT

- No, DL has this one locked-up

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
OZ - DTW-ICN

- No, DL has this one locked-up

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
WS - DTW-YYC

- No, WS already operates YQG-YYC (Windsor). If one really desires to fly non-stop to Calgary, they should pay the bridge or tunnel toll and fly from YQC to save hundreds of dollars in all of the international taxes and fees.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
With some truly game changing aircraft like the B787 and A350, can DTW be a viable route for many airlines to fly to? Only AC, AF, LH, and RJ serve the airport currently, and it seems like a massive waste to not use the two beautiful, state of the art terminals DTW has at full capacity. The airport, IMHO, has a lot of potential.

"If you build-it and they will come" does not apply to airport infrastructure. Since DTW is a large connecting hub for DL in a market that is arguably not a premire world-class city (with the massive O&D, VFR traffic, tourism, or huge international business community) it is not going to have the portfolio of routes and airlines like one would find at ORD, JFK, or LAX. DL does provide a very nice amount of flights across the global that make sense for the O&D market and connecting flows over the hub.

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
Quite a few of the airlines listed used to serve the routes above. Will they ever come back?

History is not always an indication of the future. The world and industry have changed a lot since some of those carriers last served DTW.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 1):
DTW serving a bankrupt city certianly doesnt help and with a large FF base and many companies having contracts with DL, there is not a whole lot of room for foreign carriers to enter DTW. The primary INTL gateway to the midwest is ORD and there are also hubs futher east of DTW that offer connections. DL covers Asia and Europe pretty well from DTW through nonstops and connections at alliance hubs

The fact that the City of Detroit filed for a municipal bankruptcy has zero impact on the current or future levels of air service at DTW.

The region is what is it is based on the entire economic health, size, and business climate of the region. This has changed over the decades and rises and falls with the health of the automotive industry and private sector. Yes, if the city and region were healthier and could attract more business, that it could positively impact air service.

The act of filing for bankruptcy though is going to have zero impact on the short-term viability of air service at DTW.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 25):
The bankruptcy of the City of Detroit as a municipal entity just doesn't play into it. The Metropolitan Detroit / Southeast Michigan region is still one of the most populated metropolitan areas in the US. It still has a substantial affluent population and business base, even though the dream of the ever-increasing standard of living for automobile assembly workers is essentially over

Yep. The key thing to consider is that Metro Detroit experienced is rapid growth earlier in the century and has had limited growth in the past 40+ years. Unlike other areas of the country, primarily in the Southeast, West, or major Coastal Cities which are growing now.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 1):
Short answer is no. Only remote possibility in near future(3-5 years) is TK DTW-IST. EK/EY/QR have backtracking disadvantage.

I will be honest, I know very little about TK, but this is always one that people are quick to mention about if there ever was a potential add for DTW it could be them.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
I think there is a semi 'Gold Rush' by international carriers feasting on U.S. destinations that our own flag carriers aren't interested in. Our own carriers have a few hub cities they focus on here in the states, leaving many good cities (Boston being one) ripe for the picking when it comes to international service.
Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
The other side of the coin is that these international flag carriers represent countries that depend on tourism. They want U.S. citizens passing through their airports and spending money in their cities/countries.

Yes, however DTW just doesn't seem to be one of those gold-rush types of markets. As I said above, it doesn't have a lot of international appeal, and its business ties are heavily focused on automotive/manufacturing ties. This gives DTW some more unique ties to markets like MTY, GRU, NGO, FRA, PEK, and PVG that other cities may not. What ultimately makes it work is the connecting power of the DL hub.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
How well is the new North Terminal served? Each time I fly into/out of DTW on UA/US is during the morning and early afternoon and there isn't much activity compared to the size of the terminal. Even if there are several UA CRJ/ERJs at the gates it still doesn't look busy. North Terminal could certainly use some extra international services

The North Terminal gets a lot of RON aircraft, but is generally pretty quiet midday.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 13):
It is very well served. Unlike McNamara terminal there is nothing much to do in terms of shop & dine. So everyone quickly exits the terminal.

The North Terminal is an O&D terminal. Passengers are not lingering around between connections.
 
GSP psgr
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:33 pm

AA would probably be more likely to do DTW-LHR than BA, as the 757s it has would be a better fit than a BA 763 or 787.
 
DariusBieber
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:35 pm

I personally think DTW-DUS will make a comeback to battle AA's ORD-DUS service. Almost all of DUS's US routes are at full capacity. I for one would jump for joy to connect at DTW rather than ORD, EWR, or ATL to get to DUS.

[Edited 2013-09-04 13:36:14]
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 27):
about AC operating DTW-YYZ with a better aircraft (at least a CRJ)?
A B1900D? Puh-leeze. Given that choice, I flew into YQG on a DH8 instead.

Like YYC, it makes way more sense to fly out of YQG and avoid the additional taxes/fees.

DTW/YQG - YYZ is car trip, and makes no sense to fly unless connecting beyond either of the two airports.
YYZ does offer some global connections not found at DTW, however many can be made in JFK or ORD too.
 
THEFLLFLYER
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting a321luke (Thread starter):
WS - DTW-YYC

Maybe this could be done if WS joined Skyteam.
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 22):
The city of Detroit seems to be the only thing many out of state people equate with the entire state of Michigan. We western Michigan folks especially resent this..... we're in a whole other world- just ask all the people from Illinois who vacation and have second homes here.

I am a native of New York State, and we have the same problem with everyone thinking of NYC only. Michigan is a beautiful state, and has endless outdoor recreation opportunities. I find the UP quite comparable to my adopted home, Nova Scotia.

Detroit is my favorite US city, despite the financial mess it's in. The architectural heritage alone is impressive, and there are a lot of other attractions. It's a great destination for sports or a "mancation," particularly if combined with the Auto Show. Don't be scared off by reputation, there is little to worry about downtown in terms of personal safety. Stay out of the blighted areas and you'll be fine. Go visit, it's worth it. And yes, DTW is a great airport too!  

As for international routes, with the 787, LOT should try DTW-WAW, at least 1x/week in the summer and during the Christmas season. While the Polish presence is less dominant than it once was, there are a lot of people of Polish descent in SE Michigan who would be likely to make the trip if the fares are low enough.

Same story with nonstop flights from DTW to various cities in Germany.

Al
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willzzz88
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:50 pm

DTW is situated between two major hubs of ORD and YYZ. I was in YYZ recently and drove past the airport, that airport is a massive *A hub in a much bigger metro area and global city (albeit the largest city in Canada). Yes it has taxes but the airfares can be cheaper if you're flying *A intercontinental due to the larger wide-bodies AC puts on flights to Europe and Asia.

ORD serves the same purpose but also has traffic.
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 36):

DTW is situated between two major hubs of ORD and YYZ. I was in YYZ recently and drove past the airport, that airport is a massive *A hub in a much bigger metro area and global city (albeit the largest city in Canada). Yes it has taxes but the airfares can be cheaper if you're flying *A intercontinental due to the larger wide-bodies AC puts on flights to Europe and Asia.

That is my argument for AC upgrading its current DTW-YYZ service. They're losing a lot of feeder traffic because of the B1900D in my opinion. Unless there were a substantial savings with AC, I would pay extra to complete my entire itinerary on decent-sized jet aircraft with another carrier.

There is a fair bit of O/D traffic between DTW and YYZ as well, but most people drive.

Al
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:03 pm

Like Ozark1 referenced, I currently reside in Texas (though I am a Minnesota native), I have been all over Michigan and I concur it is a stunningly beautiful state that gets an unjust bad rap largely because of the failings of Detroit. Many states are often defined by their largest cities, which is unfortunate, especially if those cities, like Detroit, fall onto economic hard times or worse. Folks often deride my adopted state of Texas, without ever visiting, hell,even I was a long time Texas basher, until I hit the roads an began to discover what a unique place Texas is, I have fallen in love with the place.

Bottom line, I would highly recommend a trip to Michigan (especially the UP in Autumn) to anyone, it is worth it.

As for increased int'l ops from DTW, I can't say, but with airframes like the 787, I can see that BA might re-launch DTW in the future, remember DTW has a long history with BA, going back to the BOAC days, so who knows?
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ORDTLV2414
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 32):
Almost all of DUS's US routes are at full capacity

always wondered why this is? any answers?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
How well is the new North Terminal served? Each time I fly into/out of DTW on UA/US is during the morning and early afternoon and there isn't much activity compared to the size of the terminal. Even if there are several UA CRJ/ERJs at the gates it still doesn't look busy. North Terminal could certainly use some extra international services

I am not even sure there is a customs clearance facility in the North Terminal. I only went over there once a year to get my flight line badge renewed.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 40):
I am not even sure there is a customs clearance facility in the North Terminal. I only went over there once a year to get my flight line badge renewed.

Yes it does. All non-SkyTeam International flights operate from North Terminal.
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AS737MAX
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:25 am

The bankruptcy of the city obviously doesn't help, but DTW is one of a handful of cities that could make an international flight using the 787 actually work. I mean come on, AUS just scored a BA flight!
 
DariusBieber
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 39):
always wondered why this is? any answers?

I apologize for a very late response, but hopefully I can gain some insight.

DUS is Germany's third largest airport and offers ton of connections to the US, Asia, Africa. It not only serves the Ruhr region, but also serves parts of Holland where driving to DUS would be closer than to AMS. DUS can be a very productive route for Delta at DTW and I think a 5x weekly B752 will definitely happen very soon.
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luckyone
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 39):
always wondered why this is? any answers?

It is smack in the middle of the Rhein-Ruhr region, an area of about 11 million people and by and large quite wealthy. For many it's a shorter trip to DUS than Frankfurt, and a more pleasant experience. Also the aforementioned proximity to the Netherlands helps traffic numbers.
 
toltommy
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 25):
DL needs to find a way to reduce its fares on flights from DTW to YHZ, YQB and YUL. I would connect via DTW every time if I could, but DL's prices on the Canadian leg of the itinerary are so high that US, UA or AC win out every time.

So it sounds like DL is able to get a better yield than the 3 Star carriers. They must be happy with the LF, or they'd lower fares to match.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 31):

AA would probably be more likely to do DTW-LHR than BA, as the 757s it has would be a better fit than a BA 763 or 787.

Agreed, but I think it would take AA/BA landing a major corporate contract (likely taking it from DL) with a lot of UK traffic to get it to happen.
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BNAOWB
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 43):
DUS can be a very productive route for Delta at DTW and I think a 5x weekly B752 will definitely happen very soon.

Among European airports with existing DL nonstop service from ATL or JFK, are there any other attractive possibilities for new DL nonstops from DTW ? I am thinking of airports such as BCN/BRU/DUB/MAD/MAN/MXP/MUC/STR/VCE/ZRH.
 
DariusBieber
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 46):
Among European airports with existing DL nonstop service from ATL or JFK, are there any other attractive possibilities for new DL nonstops from DTW ? I am thinking of airports such as BCN/BRU/DUB/MAD/MAN/MXP/MUC/STR/VCE/ZRH.

MUC might already have too many connections to the US to make DTW a profitable route. STR might not have the market capacity for both ATL and DTW.

MAN is an option for sure and I think could be done with a B752.
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thekennady
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 36):

Exactly, DTW is sandwiched between 2 major international markets that both get alot of service in ORD and YYZ. Asking carriers to overfly more bigger hubs into DTW does not make sense when 1 stop connections are quick and plentiful at ORD and YYZ. Plus DTW has a good amount of service as it is, we may see a few new routes, but i dont see any major INTL expansion at DTW.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will DTW Ever Add Any New International Service?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:35 am

Quoting THEFLLFLYER (Reply 34):
Maybe this could be done if WS joined Skyteam.

Even if they did, DL can handle the vast majority of US-YYC connections over the MSP hub.

YQB-YYC is served seasonally by Westjet, which is enough to cater to the following over in Southeast Ontario and anyone in Michigan who is savy enough to know they can fly non-stop from just across the river.

That being said, the DL MSP hub makes it very easy to connect into western Canada markets from the US.

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 36):
DTW is situated between two major hubs of ORD and YYZ. I was in YYZ recently and drove past the airport, that airport is a massive *A hub in a much bigger metro area and global city (albeit the largest city in Canada). Yes it has taxes but the airfares can be cheaper if you're flying *A intercontinental due to the larger wide-bodies AC puts on flights to Europe and Asia.

ORD serves the same purpose but also has traffic.
Quoting thekennady (Reply 48):
Exactly, DTW is sandwiched between 2 major international markets that both get alot of service in ORD and YYZ. Asking carriers to overfly more bigger hubs into DTW does not make sense when 1 stop connections are quick and plentiful at ORD and YYZ. Plus DTW has a good amount of service as it is, we may see a few new routes, but i dont see any major INTL expansion at DTW.

DTW's lack a large portfolio of international carriers and more exotic gateways is not due to the proximity of ORD or YYZ, but instead to the market size, demographics, and economy of Southeastern Michigan. ORD and YYZ are much larger, global markets and DTW is not on the same level.
ORD and DTW compete for many of the same hubsite connecting flows - between AA, UA, and DL. YYZ to a lesser extend simply because of additional challenges and cost associated with crossborder transit.

There is not a significant amount of international leakage to ORD/YYZ from DTW, and even so the type of customer that would drive to ORD or YYZ to seek a cheaper fare is probably the type of customer that DL is not interested in capturing either. Either case adds 4-6 hours on to a trip, not to mention the added cost of driving and parking.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 40):
I am not even sure there is a customs clearance facility in the North Terminal. I only went over there once a year to get my flight line badge renewed.

Yes there is - LH and RJ flights utilize the North Terminal.

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 46):
Among European airports with existing DL nonstop service from ATL or JFK, are there any other attractive possibilities for new DL nonstops from DTW ? I am thinking of airports such as BCN/BRU/DUB/MAD/MAN/MXP/MUC/STR/VCE/ZRH.

NW operated DTW-DUS with a 75A in 2007/2008
NW operated DTW-BRU briefly in 2007 with a 75A for about 2 monts
NW announced DTW-MAD DC-10-30 service in 2003, but it was cancelled before it ever started
NW operated DTW-MXP DC-10-30 service for a little more than 6 months in 2000

Daimler-Chrysler flew a corporate shuttle / VIP configured A319 3 times weekly on PTK-STR back when the two were linked-up earlier in the decade.

In reality, DUS probably would have the best shot of returning from DTW. However....

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 47):

MAN is an option for sure and I think could be done with a B752.

DL pulled all of the TATL 757 flying out of DTW post-merger, and in fact has dramatically scaled back on the remainder at JFK. NW flew DTW-AMS, DUS, BRU, LGW, and FRA at one point with 75As. The question is whether they would consider bringing back the 75A to DTW-Europe, or set the minimum threshold as a 763.

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