TAP Portugal Almost Ready To Launch Manaus & Belem

andrefranca · Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 48):
A triangular flight three times a week is a droplet of capacity - it can't go any smaller than that. Last time a foreign airline tried something similar in Brazil it did not go well with IB doing MAD-FOR-REC-MAD 3 x week. It lasted 9 months.

The possibilities for TP expanding the network in Brazil in the next ten years are nearly exhausted with CWB a hold out due to the short runway. Some of their existing routes should be able to support more capacity, especially GRU.

you know here in MAO everybody is talking about this new flight! but people also speculating that their fares won't be attractive, and many will still get a better deal flying out of GRU, let's wait and see

incitatus · Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
So if anyone can make it work it is TP.

Indeed. Well said.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
Ah, but you have to remember that this is how TP started a lot (most?), of their Brazilian destinations, back when the A310 was the workhorse in their fleet.

I think times are somewhat different. Fares are unregulated. Markets are more competitive with airline alliances selling codeshares.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 50):
you know here in MAO everybody is talking about this new flight! but people also speculating that their fares won't be attractive, and many will still get a better deal flying out of GRU, let's wait and see

Isn't that how it should be? Say CPH-LIS-MAO is a better product than CPH-CDG-GRU-MAO. To sustain a triangular flight 3 x week TAP will need both high fares and high load factor.

airbazar · Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 50):
you know here in MAO everybody is talking about this new flight! but people also speculating that their fares won't be attractive, and many will still get a better deal flying out of GRU, let's wait and see

If it's a more direct route it should be more expensive. Typically that's how the business works. However in a free market the fares also reflect what the market can support and if the market can't support a more expensive, albeit more direct route, then TP will drop the flight.

Until the official announcement comes out it's just speculation anyway. However, if it's a triangular route 3x weekly only, that doesn't sound like they are getting new aircraft as rumored. They may be able to do that by simply tweaking their schedule.

PATristar · Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:45 pm

Air Caraibes used to have a flight between BEL - Cayene at Franch Guyana with direct conection to CDG and they drop it. So Ithink the flight will be LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS as previous mentioned.

LPSHobby · Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 51):
you know here in MAO everybody is talking about this new flight! but people also speculating that their fares won't be attractive, and many will still get a better deal flying out of GRU, let's wait and see

how much is usually a MAO-GRU fare?

incitatus · Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting LPSHobby (Reply 54):
how much is usually a MAO-GRU fare?

Many passengers have the opportunity to purchase a combined ticket on say, Air France and TAM, that will do Europe-GRU-MAO. So the fares selling between GRU and MAO never figure into how much it costs to fly from MAO to Europe via GRU.

A quick cursory check leads me to believe that TAP will not have an easy time at MAO. Through its codeshares with BA, AA can pipe a lot of traffic from Europe into its MIA-MAO flight. The fares selling in Europe look very good - $750 to $1000 USD round-trip. Going through MIA is a long detour but the schedule LHR-MIA-MAO is very convenient and those flights are daily. On the way back from MAO flying AA to Europe does not look so good, but TP will be doing MAO-BEL-LIS 3 x week, so there will be people who will prefer AA/BA.

Like I said a few messages up, times have changed, and the geographic position of MAO in particular is different from SSA/REC/NAT/FOR.

If AA decides to fly MIA-BEL - which I will believe when I see it - TP will have a tough competitor at both corners and its pricing power will dampen.

andrefranca · Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting PATRistar (Reply 53):
Air Caraibes used to have a flight between BEL - Cayene at Franch Guyana with direct conection to CDG and they drop it. So Ithink the flight will be LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS as previous mentioned.

But you forgot to mention something VERY IMPORTANT, Brazilians may not need visa to France, but they do to French Guyana (high number of illegals, prostitutes, gold miners you name it), trust me I've being there, you can't imagine the number of deportees on every single flight, Caraïbes said it was because they were returning their Embraer but they were also having massive loses on the route, now let's see how long PY will stand on the route.

Quoting LPSHobby (Reply 54):
how much is usually a MAO-GRU fare?

average 350 USD return.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 55):
So the fares selling between GRU and MAO never figure into how much it costs to fly from MAO to Europe via GRU.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 55):
On the way back from MAO flying AA to Europe does not look so good, but TP will be doing MAO-BEL-LIS 3 x week, so there will be people who will prefer AA/BA.

Another annoying things is: people will need to deplane in BEL go through immigration and board again.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 55):
If AA decides to fly MIA-BEL - which I will believe when I see it - TP will have a tough competitor at both corners and its pricing power will dampen.

I wouldn't bet but the one who hurt JJ here in MAO was CM not AA.

airbazar · Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:10 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 55):
Like I said a few messages up, times have changed, and the geographic position of MAO in particular is different from SSA/REC/NAT/FOR.

The visa situation for passengers originating in Brazil cannot be ignored. TP's flight will undoubtedly cater to low yield leisure and VFR passengers. People for whom the US visa hassle and cost cannot be ignored as a factor.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 56):
Another annoying things is: people will need to deplane in BEL go through immigration and board again.

Really? You have to do that in Brazil? Nevertheless, it still beats the hell out of transiting in MIA and waiting 2 hours in the immigration line.

2travel2know2 · Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 56):
I wouldn't bet but the one who hurt JJ here in MAO was CM not AA.

And PTY still isn't an attractive airport to connect if flying between MAO and Europe (yet).

brunomelo · Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:09 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 56):

Hello Andre, i don't think you are correct on this information. There's no rule or law related to this. Back when JJ did FOR-BEL-MAO-BEL, i boarded in BEL and did not deplane in MAO. Also did GRU-POA-EZE on G3 a while back and did not deplane in POA. It doesn't make any sense if that was the case, once you go through immigration, this is it, no need to to it again, at least in the circunstances we are talking about here.
Be safe mate.
Bruno.

andrefranca · Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 59):

I based my comments on two flights JJ had stopping in MAO for fuel, BOG-GRU and CCS-GRU to avoid cargo restrictions they had to stop here to get extra gas and the pax due to immigration request, even brazilians were FORBIDDEN to clear immigration in MAO, even the ones bound to MAO trust me, they had to go doooowwwnn to GRU clear immigration and return! I mean it I was there.

So I don't know if the Federal Police will clear them in MAO and then they'd stay onboard waiting for the BEL pax!

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 59):
Back when JJ did FOR-BEL-MAO-BEL, i boarded in BEL and did not deplane in MAO

It's a domestic flight no problem to stay onboard.

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 59):
Also did GRU-POA-EZE on G3

If you say they let everyone onboard it may work, but remember European Union bound flight is much more serious than our "weak legs" neighbor flight!

just my two cents.

C010T3 · Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 59):
Hello Andre, i don't think you are correct on this information.

He really isn't.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 60):
I based my comments on two flights JJ had stopping in MAO for fuel, BOG-GRU and CCS-GRU to avoid cargo restrictions they had to stop here to get extra gas and the pax due to immigration request, even brazilians were FORBIDDEN to clear immigration in MAO, even the ones bound to MAO trust me, they had to go doooowwwnn to GRU clear immigration and return! I mean it I was there.

So I don't know if the Federal Police will clear them in MAO and then they'd stay onboard waiting for the BEL pax!

You had non-scheduled stops at MAO and want to use that as rule? No, the airline will not allow passengers deplane. The flight is not prepared to for these passengers to have their luggage sorted and delivered to them, no to mention many more implications.

On the LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS route, passengers will go through immigration at their destination airport and through emigration on their origin airport.

rg787 · Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 60):
I based my comments on two flights JJ had stopping in MAO for fuel, BOG-GRU and CCS-GRU to avoid cargo restrictions they had to stop here to get extra gas and the pax due to immigration request, even brazilians were FORBIDDEN to clear immigration in MAO, even the ones bound to MAO trust me, they had to go doooowwwnn to GRU clear immigration and return! I mean it I was there.

So I don't know if the Federal Police will clear them in MAO and then they'd stay onboard waiting for the BEL pax!

That is normal practice in most countries, because the rampers would need to search for the passengers' bags in MAO and that is not feasible. It is even common on domestic flights, when there is no need to go thru customs.

There are two ways the MAO-BEL leg can be done: as a domestic leg, and that means that people would be able do buy a MAO-BEL ticket, or as part of the international flight. The second option means that everyone onboard the plane has to be cleared thru immigration and I think it also means that tickets MAO-BEL can't be sold, but don't quote me on that.

PATristar · Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 56):
But you forgot to mention something VERY IMPORTANT, Brazilians may not need visa to France, but they do to French Guyana (high number of illegals, prostitutes, gold miners you name it), trust me I've being there, you can't imagine the number of deportees on every single flight, Caraïbes said it was because they were returning their Embraer but they were also having massive loses on the route, now let's see how long PY will stand on the route.

I didn't knew this visa requirement for French Guyana, thanks for clarifying.

incitatus · Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 61):
On the LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS route, passengers will go through immigration at their destination airport and through emigration on their origin airport.

Yes, it remains to be said whether passengers have to disembark like tags of US carrier flights have to do - which I believe it is a US requirement. Does the EU have a similar requirement?

airbazar · Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 64):
Yes, it remains to be said whether passengers have to disembark like tags of US carrier flights have to do - which I believe it is a US requirement. Does the EU have a similar requirement?

In the US that has to happen because the vast majority of US airports do not have CBP facilities so everyone has to clear customs and immigration at the first point of entry. In Europe, passengers clear immigration at the first airport because most airports are devided into international and schengan gates, but bags are picked up and cleared at the final destination.

In this case, assuming that both BEL and MAO have fully staffed customs and immigration facilities, there is no reason to believe that any passengers will need to clear immigration unless it is their final destination. They would likely be required to disembark and stay in the sterile area but that's typically an airline policy to facilitate prepping the aircraft. Most people would rather wait that 1-2 hours in the airport terminal rather than inside the plane anyway.

incitatus · Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 65):
In the US that has to happen because the vast majority of US airports do not have CBP facilities so everyone has to clear customs and immigration at the first point of entry. In Europe, passengers clear immigration at the first airport because most airports are devided into international and schengan gates, but bags are picked up and cleared at the final destination.

I was refering to US airlines tags inside Brazil, like UA (IAD)-GRU-GIG or the upcoming AA CWB-POA.

VC10er · Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:03 am

Quoting Reffado (Reply 2):

Still no pics at all of the A340 refurbished interiors? I'd love to see it and if they used their red and green, got good lay flats in business!

andrefranca · Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 65):
In this case, assuming that both BEL and MAO have fully staffed customs and immigration facilities, there is no reason to believe that any passengers will need to clear immigration unless it is their final destination. They would likely be required to disembark and stay in the sterile area but that's typically an airline policy to facilitate prepping the aircraft. Most people would rather wait that 1-2 hours in the airport terminal rather than inside the plane anyway.

We do get that, but our main talk is about the Brazil-Europe bound flight, I believe everyone here knows that when you enter Brazil you must clear immigration on your first stop, it means that even if the MAO-BEL-LIS pax stay onboard on the outbound, on the inbound I'm sure they'll all need to disembark clear immigration and customs in BEL and board once again to MAO.

C010T3 · Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:57 am

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 68):
I believe everyone here knows that when you enter Brazil you must clear immigration on your first stop

That is simply not true. You have to clear immigration where the international flight ends, but LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS does not end in Brazil.

When someone flies IAD-GRU-GIG, that person clears immigration at GIG. After flying ADD-LFW-GIG-GRU, the passengers clear immigration only at GRU, so on so forth.

andrefranca · Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 69):
That is simply not true. You have to clear immigration where the international flight ends, but LIS-MAO-BEL-LIS does not end in Brazil.

I contacted two Federal Police agents here in MAO to inquire and that's what they told me, I flew once CDG-GIG-GRU had to deplane and re-board in GIG but yes as you said we cleared immigration in GRU and the GIG bound pax cleared immigration in GIG.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 69):
After flying ADD-LFW-GIG-GRU, the passengers clear immigration only at GRU, so on so forth.

I know for sure they won't need to deplane as LFW is just another international stop along the way, but on the TP flight I'll believe when I see it, cause I don't know what decisions TP and the GOV will take.

airbazar · Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 70):
I contacted two Federal Police agents here in MAO to inquire and that's what they told me, I flew once CDG-GIG-GRU had to deplane and re-board in GIG but yes as you said we cleared immigration in GRU and the GIG bound pax cleared immigration in GIG.

I think that's what we're all saying, isn't it

Passengers have to deplane, but they only clear immigration at their destination.

At least that's what I said in my reply above:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 65):
In this case, assuming that both BEL and MAO have fully staffed customs and immigration facilities, there is no reason to believe that any passengers will need to clear immigration unless it is their final destination. They would likely be required to disembark and stay in the sterile area but that's typically an airline policy to facilitate prepping the aircraft. Most people would rather wait that 1-2 hours in the airport terminal rather than inside the plane anyway.

C010T3 · Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 71):
Passengers have to deplane, but they only clear immigration at their destination.

Deplaning is an airline decision. There is no regulation about that in Brazil.

andrefranca · Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:23 am

Now local news are saying TP will fly 4 times/week, 2 flights to MAO and 2 to BEL.

http://www.d24am.com/noticias/econom...slisboa-a-partir-de-dezembro/95366

qm001 · Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:11 am

Hi all,
I would imagine usflyer_msp, that their next North American destination would either be OAK/SFO, PVD or YUL, where there are huge numbers of Portuguese residents.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 21):
If TP were to start another North American destination, it would probably be IAD or YYZ

I don't see IAD happening, unless UA starts it, and even less likely ORD....

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 20):
LIS-ORD may sound interesting specially if UA doesn't go for it. B757 might be slightly our of range for a LIS-ORD.
For some reason, I'd think LIS-SFO and LIS-PVD (narrow-body?) non-stop or via Azores may be more attractive.

But somehow, I think OAK could be a better fit cost wise, however with the UA hub at SFO, this could make or break the route. It also opens up serious possibilities on Portugal -> Australia/NZ traffic, as this could be a one stop fit to counter EK @ LIS.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 20):
LIS-JNB may even work without routing via MPM.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
Don't see JNB happening. Too much pressure on JNB traffic from EK and TK, not just for TP but every other European airline that relies on connections to pay for the route.

I do believe that the biggest mistake was quitting the JNB route. It should have been daily back in the 90's, it really is the only way to have remained competitive. They should also have focused on their connections, especially EWR and now MIA, but also heavily in Spain, Italy and now Morrocco! I say they could make it work, and make it work daily with the 332. With IB also off the route, this gives them an Iberian leg up!

... I know TP has improved in leaps and bounds over the last few years, service wise, but just keep improving, and improve that C product, and put AVOD in Y, and we should be good to go.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
It's about the same distance as LIS-MOW which TP

I personally feel as though this should be a 332, with TLV following closely behind! What about looking at an ET JV route to ADD? This could be a nice benefit!

Looking forward to your thoughts!

QM001

C010T3 · Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:43 pm

The application is in!

Eff. 03/Jun/2014

TP35 332 -2--5-7 LIS 0930 MAO 1340 1440 BEL 1740 1910 LIS 0645+1

http://www2.anac.gov.br/hotran/

reffado · Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:21 am

Any updates as to where the two new 332s are coming from?

C010T3 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting Reffado (Reply 76):
Any updates as to where the two new 332s are coming from?

They are being leased from TAM.

santos · Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:16 pm

Route has just been confirmed! Will go on sale on Monday 7th October. 3xWeekly http://www.presstur.com/site/news.asp?news=44342. Still no news on a/c leased from Hifly? They have a few A330/A340?

LipeGIG · Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:21 pm

Schedule as per what TP requested towards Brazilian ANAC

TP 35 LIS 09:30 MAO 13:40 A332
TP 35 MAO 14:40 BEL 17:40 A332
TP 35 BEL 19:10 LIS 06:45 A332

Tuesdays, Fridays & Sundays

Welcome TP to the North of Brazil, creating the first and sole link between the Amazon Region in Brazil and Europe.

2travel2know2 · Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 79):
Welcome TP to the North of Brazil, creating the first and sole link between the Amazon Region in Brazil and Europe.

So AF CDG-CAY-MAO-LIM never took place?

andrefranca · Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 80):
So AF CDG-CAY-MAO-LIM never took place?

I know a long time ago Total a local airlines used to fly MAO-BEL-CAY and from there pax were transfered to AF to CDG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 79):
Welcome TP to the North of Brazil, creating the first and sole link between the Amazon Region in Brazil and Europe.

A former Transbrasil employee told me both Transbrasil and VASP had MAO-Europe flights, don't ask me when or to where nor if it was scheduled or chartered.

Now the information I wanted to know and we were all speculating with these hotran times, pax will stay all that long onboard? I doubt it, I still think immigration will be done in BEL, when I came from Surinam I counted 6 agents against 3 here in MAO.

brunomelo · Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 81):

Hello Andre!
Back in 1996, december i think, i did MAO-VIE on VASP, a charter flight, absolutely full, done with a MD-11.
Be safe,
Bruno.

andrefranca · Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting brunomelo (Reply 82):

Oh I see, I do know they exist as charter as I have worked myself to Air Berlin, Condor and Air Tahiti Nui attending their charters.

incitatus · Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:20 pm

Interview with Luiz da Gama Mor from TAP talking about the new service. Plus the only impediment to TAP serving CWB is the runway. And TAP would like more GRU/GIG. In Portuguese.

http://www.panrotas.com.br/noticia-t...os-para-rio-e-sao-paulo_92965.html

2travel2know2 · Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 84):
Plus the only impediment to TAP serving CWB is the runway.

Where's LIS-CWB-VCP-LIS when you need it?

santos · Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:31 pm

On this article published today, it mentions that TP is leasing 2 A330's from GECAS.
TP management also hinted that they will ask for extra frequencies to GIG, GRU and POA

http://www.presstur.com/site/news.asp?news=44410

http://www.presstur.com/site/news.asp?news=44408

TAM is joining oneworld next year, will they eventually venture on the lucrative Portugal/Brazil market?

tiago701 · Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:20 am

Hey All..

Just to add some information regarding VCP, TP didn't drop the route as it's still in the system during winter13/14 as well.

If TP is leasing 2 aircraft from GECAS, as they also confirmed 2 aircraft being leased from JJ, does this mean 4 new long haul aircraft for TP?

airbazar · Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:04 am

Quoting tiago701 (Reply 87):
If TP is leasing 2 aircraft from GECAS, as they also confirmed 2 aircraft being leased from JJ, does this mean 4 new long haul aircraft for TP?

I don't think so. As i understand it, these 2 A330's from GECAS were previously leased to TAM, or are still with TAM until their lease runs out then they'll go to TP.

tff · Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:08 pm

TP is also shopping for two A320s to lease.

http://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/empre...oes_a320_que_chegarao_em_2014.html

tiago701 · Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:13 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 88):
I don't think so. As i understand it, these 2 A330's from GECAS were previously leased to TAM, or are still with TAM until their lease runs out then they'll go to TP.

Check!

andrefranca · Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 pm

After I saw the prices on the MAO-LIS route, I'd rather SWIM from the coast to LIS LMFAO!

PS- Or I'd rather go down to GRU sleep there and get KL for much less.

tiago701 · Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 91):
After I saw the prices on the MAO-LIS route, I'd rather SWIM from the coast to LIS LMFAO!

PS- Or I'd rather go down to GRU sleep there and get KL for much less.

Well, that's always a matter of choice i guess, but at least from PT, prices are in line with the FOR, REC and NAT which are all shorter flights, for similar dates in June 14.

tiago701 · Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:50 pm

...and it seems that TP is also increasing to 82 weekly flights between Portugal and Brazil!

http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/ta...as-cidades-brasileiras_180137.html

and it's analysing operating another destination in Latin America to start in July 2014!

Panama, Colombia, Peru or Mexico

My bets are on BOG, Colombia

http://www.publituris.pt/2013/10/22/...prepara-reforco-na-america-latina/

tiago701 · Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:10 am

Quoting tiago701 (Reply 93):
...and it seems that TP is also increasing to 82 weekly flights between Portugal and Brazil!

http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/ta....html

Didn't realize Airbazar had already post this info in another topic a day before.. apologies for that.

andrefranca · Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:33 am

Quoting tiago701 (Reply 93):

My bet would be PTY or MEX their economy is much stronger and no visa restrictions.

2travel2know2 · Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 95):
My bet would be PTY or MEX their economy is much stronger and no visa restrictions.

PTY is an Star Alliance hub but LIS (O/D + hub) may not be so attractive for PTY (O/D + hub).

adicool · Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:06 pm

why is that btw way, that TP did not yet start flights to CWB? Something with the airport?

copa330200 · Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:26 am

from La Prensa in Panama: TP will start flights to PTY in 2014 second half !!! Wow!

http://www.prensa.com/impreso/econom...-acerca-al-viejo-continente/217711

I didn't see this one coming since everybody has been talking about LH..

Great to see new players in the región

airbazar · Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting tff (Reply 89):
TP is also shopping for two A320s to lease.

According to this report, it's 4.
http://www.destak.pt/artigo/177537-t...ferta-reforcada-em-2014-presidente

Quoting adicool (Reply 97):
why is that btw way, that TP did not yet start flights to CWB? Something with the airport?

My understanding is that the runway is too short.

Quoting copa330200 (Reply 98):
from La Prensa in Panama: TP will start flights to PTY in 2014 second half !!!

That was rumored a couple of weeks ago and so far it's just a rumor. No official word yet.
There is another thread out there discussion that and other TP related things.
Future Of TP (by adicool Oct 15 2013 in Civil Aviation)

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