CIDFlyer
Topic Author
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Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:59 am

American and US Airways have added to their website an option for people to voice their support for the merger that would send a letter to their representatives.

http://newamericanarriving.com/speak-up

wonder if this really will have any bearing on the merger talks?
 
user444555
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:51 am

I did it! Done! I have to keep typing until I get enough words, Sigh.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Thread starter):
wonder if this really will have any bearing on the merger talks?

Don't know if it makes a difference, but I have completed it, and forwarded the link on, to anyone that I have known in the industry in the past 25 years.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:30 am

Im not going to make the call. While I do relish the idea of AA being the biggest with expanded presence, I just can't swallow the idea of Parker running AA and the reduced competition.

I can accept the merger if it happens, but Im not goin to help it happen.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
Independence76
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:42 am

Message sent.

Really hope this merger goes through. November 25th is the date for the next hearing. Fingers crossed.
 
coachclass
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:49 am

Upon reflection of how the mergers in recent times have played out, I have decided that I'm against any more large mergers, specifically now AA/US. Deregulation was supposed to spur competition, bring prices down and expand service. That's not happening.

As I remember it, AA was not going to tear down St. Louis and Delta wasn't going to downgrade or cause jobs to be lost at MSP. Look what Delta did to the old Western Airlines route structure, AA to Reno Air and AirCal, and what US did to PSA. Although I support free enterprise, what's happening in the air industry now is the consolidation of power and the monopoly of routes. And while the airline industry is a for profit enterprise, it is nonetheless supported financially by the taxpayer through the national infrastructure. I don't think a AA/US merger benefits the traveling public.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:22 am

I would do the opposite...and I have zero problem with DOT/DOJ trying to block this merger.
 
odysseus9001
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):

I would do the opposite...and I have zero problem with DOT/DOJ trying to block this merger.


I agree. I'm pulling for the government on this one. I live in an area that would lose a lot of competition with this merger and end up paying much more.

J
 
N628AU
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:46 pm

Deregulation has done exactly that. Look at what you pay in real dollars compared to airfares and services 30 or 40 years ago.

A $200 round trip cross country ticket with Hot meals is not a sustainable business model for any airline to follow. Capacity absolutely needed to come out of the market and I has. AA and US both cannot compete long term with DL and UA. The sheer size of those other carriers would eventually send one or both of them back to BK and they probably wouldn't make it out during the next recession or fuel spike.

That being said, after some concessions this merger will occur.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:20 pm

As a European with very limited experience and exposure to US domestic markets, I'm actually confused by the way capitalism works in the so-called largest free market in the world. I married a woman from communist Poland in 1979, and at that time, my visits to Poland gave me many insights into the impact of "central planning" and all the other "benefits" of communism.

When I look at the current situation in the US domestic airline business, I really wonder what forces are acting on this market. Chapter 11 is something I have some problems with, how a business with major outstanding debts can avoid the normal capitalist cure of going out of business, leaving space for someone else to step in, I fail to comprehend! Ah well, I'm a mathematician/IT guy, what do I know about economics!

Anyway, back to thread - I ask you all, before you make the call, ask yourself - "Why?"

Let raw competition flourish, and don't support old, traditional, historic enterprises just because they are there - let them die, and allow tomorrow's airlines to flourish!
 
SESGDL
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):

I would do the opposite...and I have zero problem with DOT/DOJ trying to block this merger.

Me too. It's crazy how most consumers and even the people on here have been suckered into thinking this is good. Look for many layoffs, higher fares, less competition, etc. The only good thing will be thicker lining in the pockets of executives.

Jeremy
 
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chepos
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:41 pm

Done, thank you to all of those supporting the cause.
Both APFA and AFA re running similar cap wiz campaigns.

[Edited 2013-09-07 07:54:36]
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):
Me too. It's crazy how most consumers and even the people on here have been suckered into thinking this is good. Look for many layoffs, higher fares, less competition, etc. The only good thing will be thicker lining in the pockets of executives.

Jeremy

No.... I don't think they're suckered... I'm certainly not and, I'm completely in favor for this merger ONLY because of UA/CO and DL/NW being allowed.

I don't believe it is now fair to AA/US to be forced to stay at a competitive disadvantage in size and scope when the Government allowed the other two (three if you include Southwest/AirTran). Shame it took regulators till now to realize what these types of mergers do but, that said, you can't disenfranchise one simply for your short sited perspectives when you let the cat out of the bag.

I want the "new" American to be able to be the best and to be competitive against a much larger UA and DL. Further, how dare they stop American's merger when the government through their loop holes in Ch. 11 allowed EVERY other carrier in the prior big 6 to use it to clear their books while AA took the high road... It was only after the others merged that AA became at such a disadvantage they had to play the Ch. 11 card to bring costs on par... I view the AA Ch. 11 as a Govt. failing them.. and this is absolutely no different.
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
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RWA380
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting chepos (Reply 12):
Done, thank you to all of those supporting the cause

It's the right thing to do. UA/CO and DL/NW merged and now UA and DL have an advantage over AA & US. Why should the mergers stop with UA?

AA/US creates the third mega carrier, that may keep the other two a bit more honest. There is enough competition from WN, B6, AS, NK, G4, HA, F9 and many more carriers plying the skies here in the US, that this merger won't kill much competition.

I do think the combined carrier should divest slots at DCA, 70% is too many at such a premium slot controlled airport. They should be allowed to have a fighting chance against the other two current mega carriers.

Three mega carriers is a much better number when it comes to competition, I see just the two, providing much less opportunities for travelers. Yes some things will be dropped, that ALWAYS happens in a merger, we need three big carriers to continue sparking competition more evenly. IMHO 
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commavia
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):
Me too. It's crazy how most consumers and even the people on here have been suckered into thinking this is good. Look for many layoffs, higher fares, less competition, etc. The only good thing will be thicker lining in the pockets of executives.

Well what I don't want is three government-sanctioned mega carriers systematically using their regulator-approved scale and network advantage to further erode the strength and presence of their competitors.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and like with so many other things, I think the government in this case is now basically trying to whitewash and "fix" a problem of their own creation by creating yet another big problem. If regulators were supposedly so concerned about consumers interests in airline mergers, the time to have acted on such concerns would have been on October 29, 2008, before they allowed Delta to merge with Northwest, or on August 26, 2010, before they allowed United to merge with Continental, or on April 25, 2011, before they allowed Southwest to merge with AirTran. By applying one standard to allow these carriers to merge into domestic behemoths with massive networks spanning multiple huge mega hubs, they effectively enshrined those carriers' oligopolistic dominance and pricing power in countless markets. This phenomenon is even more pronounced in many smaller markets, where Southwest is often absent, and where today Delta and United - in many cases - effectively control the markets between them (and AA and USAirways are substantially smaller carriers, if present at all).

Today, AA and USAirways merging would provide a fourth effective national network mega carrier - compared to three now - to provide discipline for those existing three networks. Because realistically, Alaska and JetBlue are never going to be able to effectively discipline Delta, Southwest and United on a national level. A combined AA would. To block this merger would actually be to further harm competition - by essentially fixing in place a competitive environment where three massive airlines use their power to progressively widen the gap between them and everybody else (which is exactly what has happened to date). Given that alternative, I'd much rather have four national mega carriers keeping each other in check than three, plus the continued discipline provided in particular regions by smaller carriers (JetBlue in the east, Alaska in the west) or in particular markets (Spirit, Allegiant).

Not only do I think these mergers have been a net-positive for consumers, with the stability and profitability they have brought leading to improved services, upgraded amenities, and broader networks, but I also think the time has come for the government to stop pursuing lower fares at all costs. Air travel isn't a constitutional right, and I don't think it's unreasonable for airlines - and especially airline employees - to want to earn a decent return for their shareholders, and their families. If this merger will make a combined, "new AA" more profitable, then I'm for it.

[Edited 2013-09-07 08:08:06]
 
PHX787
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:06 pm

I hope it doesn't. Loss of jobs, flights, and options. For the avid flyers like myself, and businessmen and women whom I work with, this is a nightmare.
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sassiciai
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
AA/US creates the third mega carrier, that may keep the other two a bit more honest. There is enough competition from WN, B6, AS, NK, G4, HA, F9 and many more carriers plying the skies here in the US, that this merger won't kill much competition.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Three mega carriers is a much better number when it comes to competition, I see just the two, providing much less opportunities for travelers. Yes some things will be dropped, that ALWAYS happens in a merger, we need three big carriers to continue sparking competition more evenly

Are you real? Is this America, Home of the Free? What is this stuff about Chapter 11 and Mega carriers?

Let the market decide!

This is a commercial issue, so don't let non-commercial issues or regulations interfere.

The airline business is very bizarre. It seems to defy commercial realism and current day logic. I can fly today on flights that I first took 30 or 40 years ago, and I can still pay the same absolute amount of money! Which means roughly that I pay today about 20% (to be discussed) of what I payed then, for the same facility, in better comfort and safety, and get there quicker!

But this is not a right for the American citizen. Let free competition decide on the outcome. Stop offering artificial defense to bankrupt companies - it distorts the market against new entrants, who might actually improve your lives if given a chance!
 
commavia
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 17):
The airline business is very bizarre. It seems to defy commercial realism and current day logic. I can fly today on flights that I first took 30 or 40 years ago, and I can still pay the same absolute amount of money! Which means roughly that I pay today about 20% (to be discussed) of what I payed then, for the same facility, in better comfort and safety, and get there quicker!
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/10/even-with-baggage-fees-the-miracle-of-flight-remains-a-real-bargain-average-2011-airfare-was-40-below-1980-level/

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Even when one includes ancillary fees, inflation-adjusted domestic airfares relative to distance flown (i.e., cost per mile) are more than 40% lower in 2011 than in 1980.
 
Flaps
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:29 pm

No more mergers. Not this merger nor any other. Has anyone gained anything at all from consolidation? For the few that have at what cost to the rest?
 
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DL747400
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:30 pm

Nice try, but I have no intention of "helping" AA/US in any way, whether it be assistance in pushing this merger through or anything else.

In my opinion, AA has dominated the American aviation market for way too long and has often not been a good custodian of that leadership position. It's time for a shift in the competitive landscape and a change among the order of the top 3 players. I say leave AA in a distant #3 position. Let them get comfortable stagnating there for a decade or two.

Out of the gate first means you get first mover advantages. That is the simple reality of business. Much to their credit, DL and to a lesser extent UA acted deliberately and aggressively to get their mergers approved at the beginning and mid-point in this round of airline consolidation. It didn't just happen by chance. Management and labor worked together to make it happen.

Just because AA management and labor could not get their acts together and thought it was more productive to fight one another instead of the competition does not mean that this merger should be allowed to proceed unchallenged. The objections of DOJ are now on record. Settling this mess is now a matter for the courts.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
gegarrenton
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:33 pm

That's pretty uncalled for.
 
commavia
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
In my opinion, AA has dominated the American aviation market for way too long and has often not been a good custodian of that leadership position. It's time for a shift in the competitive landscape and a change among the order of the top 3 players. I say leave AA in a distant #3 position. Let them get comfortable stagnating there for a decade or two.

So it's the government's job to punish an alleged formerly "dominant" "market leader?" (Fascinating description of AA, by the way, considering its market share, to my knowledge, peaked at no more than about 20%.)

"Let them get comfortable stagnating?" Wow. Classy.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
Out of the gate first means you get first mover advantages. That is the simple reality of business. Much to their credit, DL and to a lesser extent UA acted deliberately and aggressively to get their mergers approved at the beginning and mid-point in this round of airline consolidation.

Well I do agree with one point (and only one) from your comment: DL and UA definitely do have a first mover advantage - advantage being the very, very key word.

I've read repeatedly on here that any comparison of AA-US to DL-NW, UA-CO, or WN-FL is meaningless, since each merger needs to be evaluated solely based on the current conditions at the time of application, not based upon prior precedent from years earlier.

And I could not agree more. So let's not miss the forest for the trees on the current conditions that the U.S. government has effectively installed. Today, three U.S. carriers have been allowed to merge such that they collective carry well over half of all air traffic in the U.S. - a huge competitive advantage in and of itself, courtesy of the U.S. government.

Putting aside for a moment that other consumer industries have been permitted by regulators to operate with dramatically higher levels of concentration than this, does this level of regulator-sanctioned market control from just three competitors truly face the same level of competitive discipline from multiple smaller competitors that it would from multiple smaller competitors plus one additional, equally-sized competitor?

Would that single change - allowing another airline to be able to compete with these three government-sanctioned mega carriers based upon national network scale, as opposed to solely on price - be a bad thing for customers? I submit that it would not be, and in fact that the domestic market would benefit from having four mega carriers all competing on the basis of national network scale and price, plus still a constellation of multiple other regionally-focused and/or cost-oriented competitors disciplining these four, and each other, on the basis of price. Not to mention, I think our country benefits from having four mega carriers with national scale, as air travel provides vital access to domestic and global markets and attracts investment based specifically upon schedule convenience and hub connectivity - all things that would be enhanced by having four, as opposed to three, such carriers.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting gegarrenton (Reply 21):

What's your point? Unless you quote the post you call into question, your post is all but worthless!

Select the text of the post you wish to comment on, then look to the top of that post, and click the "quote selected text" - what you selected will now appear in the text area where you can formulate your reply!

Then you can contribute properly!
 
panampaul
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting gegarrenton (Reply 21):
That's pretty uncalled for.

Since you didn't quote a particular post, what is it that you are referring to?
 
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chepos
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:46 pm

Complete the form if you agree with the merger, if you don't there is no need to give us your unsolicited opinion on the matter. I am sure you have given us your 2 cents on one of the many merger related threads. Carry on.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
In my opinion, AA has dominated the American aviation market for way too long and has often not been a good custodian of that leadership position. It's time for a shift in the competitive landscape and a change among the order of the top 3 players. I say leave AA in a distant #3 position. Let them get comfortable stagnating there for a decade or two.

Your comments are so unnecessary and uncalled for.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
panampaul
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
Settling this mess is now a matter for the courts.

This is quite correct.

I find it almost amusing that people think that signing forms and protesting will influence a court decision. It won't play any role and the court will make its decision based on the facts presented in the case and the law as the judge interprets it. And it seems that this case has an exceptionally fine and insightful jurist at the helm.
 
steeler83
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 10):
I ask you all, before you make the call, ask yourself - "Why?"

Let raw competition flourish, and don't support old, traditional, historic enterprises just because they are there - let them die, and allow tomorrow's airlines to flourish!

There is some logic to that. However, with a merger, one airline is going to vanish as it is slowly integrated into the newer network of the newer larger network.

If you look at capitalism and free market enterprise, don't mergers and buyouts happen elsewhere? Don't banks merge or buy one another out (BNY and Mellon, PNC and National City)? Or what about other companies (J&H and Marsh/McClennon)?

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
Today, AA and USAirways merging would provide a fourth effective national network mega carrier - compared to three now - to provide discipline for those existing three networks. Because realistically, Alaska and JetBlue are never going to be able to effectively discipline Delta, Southwest and United on a national level. A combined AA would. To block this merger would actually be to further harm competition - by essentially fixing in place a competitive environment where three massive airlines use their power to progressively widen the gap between them and everybody else (which is exactly what has happened to date). Given that alternative, I'd much rather have four national mega carriers keeping each other in check than three, plus the continued discipline provided in particular regions by smaller carriers (JetBlue in the east, Alaska in the west) or in particular markets (Spirit, Allegiant).

Not only do I think these mergers have been a net-positive for consumers, with the stability and profitability they have brought leading to improved services, upgraded amenities, and broader networks, but I also think the time has come for the government to stop pursuing lower fares at all costs. Air travel isn't a constitutional right, and I don't think it's unreasonable for airlines - and especially airline employees - to want to earn a decent return for their shareholders, and their families. If this merger will make a combined, "new AA" more profitable, then I'm for it.

All valid points. Although if one were to be traveling for medical purposes, are there any ways of obtaining discounted air fares for medical reasons? My wife and I travel to Florida each year to see a medical specialist for her rare metabolic disorder.

Having said all of the above, should AA go into Chapter 7, who will fill in the void at DFW? Would DL add that as well as MIA? UA would likely pick up whatever is left at ORD as well as LAX. Although, does anyone see Parker possibly pursuing AA's ORD hub for a midwestern operation? Or if DL doesn't want DFW, I could see Parker going there as well...

I would like to see this merger go through though. AA has everything to gain with PHL and CLT. QR already announced service with a 77W. Who knows what BA will do with their ops, and who knows what else will happen int'l airline-wise at PHL and CLT.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
gegarrenton
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:51 pm

I'm not sure how many forums most of you guys are a part of, but generally, if there is no quote, then the post is referring to the one above it.

This one however does not.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Even when one includes ancillary fees, inflation-adjusted domestic airfares relative to distance flown (i.e., cost per mile) are more than 40% lower in 2011 than in 1980.

That may be, but I don't presume the industry was efficient in 1980. Some structures, particularly wage agreements and work rules pre-dereg, are still being heavily modified more than 30 years after deregulation. There's also an expectation of 35 years of productivity improvements. Sony isn't selling 1980 TV sets with higher prices 'to adjust for inflation'.
 
commavia
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 26):
I find it almost amusing that people think that signing forms and protesting will influence a court decision. It won't play any role and the court will make its decision based on the facts presented in the case and the law as the judge interprets it. And it seems that this case has an exceptionally fine and insightful jurist at the helm.

This is not about influencing a judge. This is about influencing the DOJ bureaucrats and State Attorneys General who would block this merger. And those people - and the elected politicians who direct them - absolutely could be influenced by political pressure. Thus why the form referenced in the OP links to the Senators and Congressman who provide funding to the DOJ, and (where applicable) the Governors and AGs of the relevant states.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 27):
Having said all of the above, should AA go into Chapter 7, who will fill in the void at DFW? Would DL add that as well as MIA? UA would likely pick up whatever is left at ORD as well as LAX. Although, does anyone see Parker possibly pursuing AA's ORD hub for a midwestern operation? Or if DL doesn't want DFW, I could see Parker going there as well.

I don't believe this hypothetical prospect is realistic. I continue to think that US is the carrier more vulnerable sans merger, not AA. It is smaller, with a weaker network - as Parker himself has repeatedly acknowledged. AA's biggest structural problems before bankruptcy were largely cost-related - the wrong union contracts and the wrong aircraft. Those two big issued have both been largely addressed, and as such AA today is generating impressive operating margins.
 
panampaul
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):
This is not about influencing a judge. This is about influencing the DOJ bureaucrats and State Attorneys General who would block this merger. And those people - and the elected politicians who direct them - absolutely could be influenced by political pressure. Thus why the form referenced in the OP links to the Senators and Congressman who provide funding to the DOJ, and (where applicable) the Governors and AGs of the relevant states.

That ship has sailed. It's already in the courts. The DOJ hired a new head of antitrust litigation that knows his stuff. If you look at the history of antitrust cases in the U.S., you will see that, while they are discussed quite a bit, the discussion has little to no influence on the outcome. It's in the judge's hands now, no one else's.
 
commavia
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 31):
That ship has sailed. It's already in the courts. The DOJ hired a new head of antitrust litigation that knows his stuff. If you look at the history of antitrust cases in the U.S., you will see that, while they are discussed quite a bit, the discussion has little to no influence on the outcome. It's in the judge's hands now, no one else's.

The two sides can settle at any time. As such, putting political pressure on those whose influence matters may well still be meaningful.
 
steeler83
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):
I don't believe this hypothetical prospect is realistic. I continue to think that US is the carrier more vulnerable sans merger, not AA. It is smaller, with a weaker network - as Parker himself has repeatedly acknowledged. AA's biggest structural problems before bankruptcy were largely cost-related - the wrong union contracts and the wrong aircraft. Those two big issued have both been largely addressed, and as such AA today is generating impressive operating margins.

That does make a lot of sence, and it too is valid. US has only PHL, CLT, PHX, and for some reason (geographically speaking) DCA. Did Parker acknowledge their weakness in the Midwest at all when discussing how small their network is compared to other legacy airlines? Yet, they shrunk LGA to bolster DCA. Yes I realize it was part of a deal with DL, but did US gain anything from that? What did they gain besides a large presence in an already saturated population on the East Coast? Do pardon my ignorance here. Why can't they go into STL or MCI for a midwestern focus city or small hub? Do US have the available funds in place to start one? Although, they'd be directly competing against WN on most routes. On the other hand, US offers something that WN doesn't: first class, connections to *A carriers at PHL, CLT, etc. to name a couple.

Or if UA decides it doesn't want CLE anymore, is that far enough west for that to work as a midwestern hub or focus city?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 24):
Complete the form if you agree with the merger, if you don't there is no need to give us your unsolicited opinion on the matter. I am sure you have given us your 2 cents on one of the many merger related threads. Carry on.
Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 24):
Your comments are so unnecessary and uncalled for.

HaHaHa!

A truly great post on a.net! A man with his own opinion!

Why do we need a.net anyway?
 
avek00
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
Just because AA management and labor could not get their acts together and thought it was more productive to fight one another instead of the competition does not mean that this merger should be allowed to proceed unchallenged.

I have to agree with this sentiment 110%. Although US government policy has long favored airline consolidation via mergers, no airline has an inherent birthright to combine with another, and DL and UA did the heavy lifting at just the right times to get their mergers approved and implemented.

It also helps that the DL/NW and UA/CO mergers were synergistic in nature, allowing larger, more versatile companies to better leverage route rights (such as NWA's TPAC operation) and flying patterns (CO's ex-EWR transatlantic schedule, or the carrier's generally strong fleet utilization) formerly in the hands of smaller players who were limited in what they could do with them. There's no "additive" feeling that accompanies the AA/US merger effort; no impression that joining AA and US will allow a merged AA to do something "new" that old AA could not do on its own.

As a consumer, I would be hurting myself by vocalizing support for AA/US.
Live life to the fullest.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2377
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):

Your comments are so unnecessary and uncalled for.

And your lack of respect for an opinion is uncalled for.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 35):
no airline has an inherent birthright to combine with another

And nobody every claimed they did. But on the flip side, no airline has an "inherent birthright" to a government-sanctioned advantage simply because they filed for bankruptcy a few years earlier. Astounding.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 35):
DL and UA did the heavy lifting at just the right times to get their mergers approved and implemented

Good for them. And AA did "heavy lifting" on a merger five years before either of those carriers. What does that have to do with anything? I thought this was all supposedly about the here and now. And in the here and now, the U.S. government has set up a competitive landscape where three airlines have dominant networks that no other U.S. carrier can ever possibly compete with because of hub limitations. I continue to believe that consumers are helped, not hurt, by allowing a fourth mega carrier to compete with, and discipline, the current three on their own terms.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 35):
It also helps that the DL/NW and UA/CO mergers were synergistic in nature, allowing larger, more versatile companies to better leverage route rights (such as NWA's TPAC operation) and flying patterns (CO's ex-EWR transatlantic schedule, or the carrier's generally strong fleet utilization) formerly in the hands of smaller players who were limited in what they could do with them. There's no "additive" feeling that accompanies the AA/US merger effort; no impression that joining AA and US will allow a merged AA to do something "new" that old AA could not do on its own.

Perhaps you're looking at different route maps than I am. Domestically, AA has a very diminished presence in the northeast and no north-south route network up and down the east coast to speak of outside of MIA, and internationally, AA has a very diminished presence in continental Europe. Both of those are "additive" with this merger - and at least the domestic network deficiencies are completely unachievable by AA in a standalone state because there is no more northeast or mid-Atlantic hubs available. On the flip side, US has absolutely no presence in Asia, a minimal presence in the U.K. and South America, and virtually no presence in the midwest, all of which is "additive" to that network in this merger.

[Edited 2013-09-07 09:44:57]
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 31):
It's in the judge's hands now, no one else's.

Not quite.

The judge will only look at the case presented by the plaintiffs (DoJ and others) and at the defence presented by the defendants (AA and US).

There's still plenty of time for people to influence what plaintiffs like the DoJ will do, either in terms of coming to a pre-trial settlement, or in terms of the evidence that the DoJ will present to the court at trial.
 
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DL747400
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RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
And AA did "heavy lifting" on a merger five years before either of those carriers.

Who was it that American merged with in the Fall of 2003? If you are thinking of TWA, wasn't that back in 2001? And if you are talking about TWA, that transaction was not part of the latest round of consolidation.

TWA was an acquisition as opposed to a merger. TWA was clearly a failing company and would have ceased operations without some type of substantial intervention. All American did was acquire the assets of TWA and then integrate them into American, some would say to the detriment of thousands of TWA employees. Not sure how swooping in and acquiring the assets of a company that was literally on the literal verge of shutting down and ceasing operations ala Pan Am can be called "doing the heavy lifting."
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
AA94
Posts: 716
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and like with so many other things, I think the government in this case is now basically trying to whitewash and "fix" a problem of their own creation by creating yet another big problem.

  

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 20):
In my opinion, AA has dominated the American aviation market for way too long and has often not been a good custodian of that leadership position. It's time for a shift in the competitive landscape and a change among the order of the top 3 players. I say leave AA in a distant #3 position. Let them get comfortable stagnating there for a decade or two.

I'm not sure what planet you have been living on, but I'm not sure AA has dominated anything for a long time, unless you count their extraordinary ability to hemorrhage money with remarkable consistency.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 27):
should AA go into Chapter 7

This is the least likely of all possible outcomes. AA could survive, and likely thrive, as a standalone carrier, albeit they'd be a distant #3. Going into liquidation isn't on the table at this point.
 
runway23
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):
Complete the form if you agree with the merger, if you don't there is no need to give us your unsolicited opinion on the matter. I am sure you have given us your 2 cents on one of the many merger related threads. Carry on.

That's very rude, especially on a discussion forum where people will always have and are entitled to different opinions.

You continually tell people to be quiet and only speak if they are in favor of a merger for months now.

Let's step back and think why ? I would guess the only reason you are in favor of the merger is because it will result in you having a higher pay scale rather than anything else.

I hope you realize that what you are asking for may come back to bite you in the future. With higher labor costs, the new AA will find itself with a number of hubs/routes that no longer make sense to operate. A hub like PHX would probably be the first to suffer. And essentially a large part of the current US network which relies on the current low costs will be rightsized and routes re-organized towards other, larger, hubs.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5136
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
Im not going to make the call. While I do relish the idea of AA being the biggest with expanded presence, I just can't swallow the idea of Parker running AA and the reduced competition.

Except AA's unions don't want Horton or anyone who has been in management going back to when Bob Crandall retired. If the merger gets called off, then at some point, AA has to find a new CEO and senior management team.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 5):
As I remember it, AA was not going to tear down St. Louis and Delta wasn't going to downgrade or cause jobs to be lost at MSP. Look what Delta did to the old Western Airlines route structure, AA to Reno Air and AirCal, and what US did to PSA.

AA wasn't going to get rid of STL, because ORD was so congested. After 9/11, air travel declined, and it also became clear that STL didn't generated the O&D traffic that ORD, DFW, New York, Miami, and L.A. do.

If anyone believed that every last manager at MSP was going to keep his or her job after DL bought NW, then they haven't watched what has gone on in corporate America since the early 1980s. As for the old Western system, Air Cal, and PSA, I can tell you the problem with two letters, WN. Southwest expanded into the West Coast and drove everyone but United out. Although, some of the routes that Delta dropped out west were point-to-point flying that DL had from the days of regulation.

What did in Reno Air was the crash in the tech sector and dot.coms. According to a friend of mine at AA, business travel for tech companies dried up, once we were safely past Y2K. Tech people expected everyone to become technoholics, constantly updating and upgrading hardware and software. In fact, because of Y2K, businesses and individuals had little reason to buy much in the way of software and hardware for several years. The dot.com people were flush were IPO money and flying all the time, with walk-up tickets for coach and first. When the market crashed in April of 2000 and companies went belly up, traffic in and out of SJC disappeared. After 9/11, no one was going to LAS and RNO. I went to Las Vegas in December of 2001, and nothing was crowded like it had been in the past: shows, buffets, LAS, high-end restaurants.
 
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DL747400
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 40):
I'm not sure what planet you have been living on, but I'm not sure AA has dominated anything for a long time, unless you count their extraordinary ability to hemorrhage money with remarkable consistency.

Since you are in the 16-20 age bracket, I will forgive you for being far too young to have developed anything approaching a serious historical perspective on the American airline industry. Your focus on the relatively recent history of this industry is understandable.

Those of us who have been around for awhile and have witnessed the ups and downs of this business for a much longer period of time know that the AA we see today is not the AA which has dominated the airline industry for decades. Look at the AA which existed prior to 9/11 and you will see more what I'm talking about. Since 9/11, AA has been in a slow and steady decline, but all airlines have struggled to varying degrees in the post-9/11 world. And yes, AA has demonstrated an amazing ability to hemorrhage cash at astounding levels, but they are not alone in that category, either.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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chepos
Posts: 6560
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 41):
That's very rude, especially on a discussion forum where people will always have and are entitled to different opinions.

You continually tell people to be quiet and only speak if they are in favor of a merger for months now.

Let's step back and think why ? I would guess the only reason you are in favor of the merger is because it will result in you having a higher pay scale rather than anything else.

I hope you realize that what you are asking for may come back to bite you in the future. With higher labor costs, the new AA will find itself with a number of hubs/routes that no longer make sense to operate. A hub like PHX would probably be the first to suffer. And essentially a large part of the current US network which relies on the current low costs will be rightsized and routes re-organized towards other, larger, hubs.


The purpose of the thread is not to give your opinion on the matter, there are numerous other threads for that. Regardless whether you consider my comment rude or not, the threat title is not - Give your opinion on the US/AA merger. Or is it?

[Edited 2013-09-07 10:48:32]

[Edited 2013-09-07 10:48:58]

[Edited 2013-09-07 11:13:20]
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1386
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:00 pm

I personal don't want this merger to go through! Where can I raise my voice for this. The prices will go up. The service will go down thats whats happening in the USA for the last 20 years. No more competition, higher prices, less service. Thats whats going to happen.
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FWAERJ
Posts: 2733
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:35 pm

Sent my letter of support in to Congressman Stutzman, Senators Donnelly and Coats, and Governor Pence.

I see this merger as FWA's hope for getting PHL service, something the folks at FWA agree with me on. Same goes for EVV getting CLT back. At IND, the biggest airport in the state and the only airport in Indiana where the two compete, AA and US combined would be a much stronger #3 against #1 WN and #2 DL. And in addition to FWA-PHL and EVV-CLT, I could see IND-LGA, SBN-DFW/CLT, and FWA-CLT added to the route network.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting chepos (Reply 44):
The purpose of the thread is not to give your opinion on the matter, there are numerous other threads for that. Regardless whether you consider my comment rude or not, the threat title is not - Give your opinion on the US/AA merger. Or is it?

In a forum such as this one with such polar extremes of both industry familiarity and ability for self-expression, asking for any *opinion* is risky.

But, at the point where one begins shepherding what is a correct opinion and what is a useless opinion, there no longer seems to be a point to the discussion.

This discussion may have run its course.

[Edited 2013-09-07 11:44:08]
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:44 pm

No way. Why would I voice support for something that will drive up my cost of flying?

People who support this merger/idea haven't seen the ball since kickoff. Maybe they like it for an airline to gouge them and treat them like dirt......

I'm also beginning to suspect that this thread was planted here by an employee of US/AA, to create a fake "grassroots" effort at showing "support" for higher prices and worse service...

To the end, I'm throwing my lot behind the Department of Justice and my wallet. Where do I sign up for supporting a merger block?
 
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sassiciai
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:48 pm

From my European perspective, it's quite interesting to see this dialogue unfold!

Seems that the situation is even worse than I thought

So if anyone could provide a clear summary for non-American readers, that would be great! Thanks
 
smilinjack
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:54 am

RE: Voice Support For AA/US

Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:03 pm

I am for the merger, and here is one reason why....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...nse-airlines-idUSL2N0H21EJ20130907

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