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flymia
Posts: 7131
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting HOOB747 (Reply 48):

I love how DFW-MIA was a red eye and they made it seem like it was a 5hr flight. Anyway tons of problems with those plane shots.

The thing is most people don't notice just like I don't notice mistakes in medical scenes or demolition scenes. The more you know about something the more you realize how little everyone else knows about it. The same thing goes for the news media. There are three things I know a lot about. Aviation, Law, and Geography and I see errors from all sorts of media in those three subjects. But that is only because I know a lot about the subjects.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
spacecadet
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:06 pm

Ultimately it is a choice, and there can be a lot of reasons for it.

One thing I will say is that nobody in Hollywood ever uses the excuse "because it's just a movie." *Ever.* If you say that or even think it, you will never work in Hollywood. I'm saying this from experience - it's been a while now, but I worked on several medium-budget movies before deciding I needed to make more money than Hollywood was willing to pay me   I do still work on TV shows, though, and have been doing that for the past 9 years.

(Most Hollywood jobs are very low paying, and irregular. You're lucky if you can make $30k per year actually working on films, unless you're somebody really well known.)

But that culture of "eh, who cares" does not exist in Hollywood. Even the worst filmmakers care about their movies and what people think of them, they're just either not good enough managers to make every shot in the film work perfectly, or it just wasn't physically possible to do it. But film is a literal medium and every half-decent filmmaker knows that - it's literally Filmmaking 101. (It was the first thing I learned in my first film class.)

I could give you a couple of good reasons for showing the wrong plane on a landing shot. The best reason is that filming all needs to be scheduled well in advance - actors have their own schedules, there's a set budget, equipment may only be available at certain times, catering is only set up for certain times (this can be a big deal! You can't have an 8 hour shoot with no food available), transportation may only be available at certain times, and outdoor light is obviously not always available. Scheduling a film shoot is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. So if you know you need a shot of a plane landing, often the type of plane or airline it is will be the *least* important consideration - because of all the other stuff going on, you may only have a window of 10 minutes to shoot what's going to be a 10 second shot. There's no time to wait for the right plane, and nobody's going to tell an actor "sorry, we had to bump your scene so we could go shoot a plane landing for a 10 second shot, so can you come in at 6AM tomorrow?".

Often it will be a 2nd or 3rd unit that films these kinds of shots as b-roll, so they wouldn't necessarily have to worry about scheduling around actors, but they'd still have a lot of the same considerations otherwise.

Then you can ask "well, why not just use stock footage", and the answer to that is usually pretty simple - it's just not always available. There's not some huge repository of footage of every single plane from every single airline landing at all the major airports in the world at every time of day and in every type of weather that's free for licensing to anyone. There's *some*, and you do see that kind of stock footage in movies and TV shows, but it's often the case that there's nothing available that fits the film (especially with the perpetual license terms that filmmakers need). Or, sometimes filmmakers will have no choice *but* to pick a stock shot that doesn't really fit, because it was raining the one day they had to shoot planes landing or something like that and they have to take whatever the stock agency has.

But it's definitely not the case that filmmakers don't care about stuff like this, it's more a case of them having to work around limited resources, and setting priorities. Even in big budget movies, most of the budget goes to things like paying for high priced actors and special effects, and the schedule can be even tighter than on a smaller budget film; there's still not going to be a lot of time to go out and shoot b-roll at airports.
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timpdx
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:35 pm

I work in "The Business" and when we have done aircraft scenes, we basically can go to a soundstage and rent an WB on a gimbal (rotate and such) or have a static section of aircraft brought to us, I believe the one we rented was a 727 fuselage, then it was set on a platform, widened to make it a 2-3-2 generic WB. We then made it a night flight by blacking out the windows, and there you have it. The aircraft on gimbals is way to expensive for the TV show I was working on at the time. TV shows are cheap. You take what you can get. I am actually surprised there are not better filmable aircraft around, with VCV and MHV have all the parts you can dream you would ever need on the cheap right up the road from LA.
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brilondon
Posts: 3164
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 52):
I am actually surprised there are not better filmable aircraft around, with VCV and MHV have all the parts you can dream you would ever need on the cheap right up the road from LA.

Where does Mythbusters get their aircraft that they end up destroying? I saw it on an episode once and can't remember it.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:19 am

Movie/TV/video game/etc. aircraft-related mistakes and themes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustPlaneWrong

[Edited 2013-09-08 17:20:55]
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
3DoorsDown
Posts: 347
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:44 am

"Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?"

Because like politicians, Hollywood is full of lies, untruths, smoke and mirrors, so why would airlines in movies be any different?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 51):
But it's definitely not the case that filmmakers don't care about stuff like this, it's more a case of them having to work around limited resources, and setting priorities. Even in big budget movies, most of the budget goes to things like paying for high priced actors and special effects, and the schedule can be even tighter than on a smaller budget film; there's still not going to be a lot of time to go out and shoot b-roll at airports.

One of my favorite aircraft-related movie errors is in the excellent 1990 gangster movie, "Goodfellas" (budget about $25 million), which was nominated for 6 Academy Awards and won one (Joe Pesci, best supporting actor). Opening scene excerpt here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmPBgK-jvB0

Note the Swissair 747-200 followed by a Korean Air 747SP on final approach. Text on the screen then indicates it's supposed to be Idlewild Airport in 1963, 6 years before the 747 made it's first flight, and the livery on the Swissair 742 wasn't introduced until 1981. And the 747SP didn't go into service until 1976, and KE didn't take delivery of their first until 1981. And in the background of the footage with the "Idlewild Airport 1963" text on the screen, a DC-10 is taking off in the distance, 8 years before the DC-10 went into service.

Also note the segment just after those above, presumably still supposed to be IDL in 1963, with one of the cast leaning against a 1965 Chevy Impala.

This scene comes a little later, referring to an Air France airport robbery. Note the Convair 240 in fake AF livery at the beginning. AF never operated the Convair 240, and they certainly would never have used it on transatlantic routes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVk1aa2IYNE

[Edited 2013-09-08 19:06:23]

[Edited 2013-09-08 19:08:23]
 
skycub
Posts: 318
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:34 am

How about this documentary about the Air Canada inflight fire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvbrGwtFY98

The incident occurred in 1983, yet the seatbacks show the Air Canada logo from the late 90s.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
Grisee08
Posts: 468
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting mbk1999 (Reply 23):
Well let's give credit to movies that did go the extra mile using dedicated planes like 'Executive Decision' and, bad as it was, 'Turbulence'.

Don't forget "Passenger 57" where they used an L-1011 the whole way through.

I simply love Airplane where the exterior shots of the plane flying are noises from a propeller plane.
Alright Alright Alright!
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2804
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:36 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 51):
Ultimately it is a choice, and there can be a lot of reasons for it.

But none of that explains why they use widebody interiors for narrowbody exterior shots. Or three different exterior shots of three different planes, all of which are stock footage. I don't think anyone expects film makers to troop out to the airport to get the right type. Just lazy.
 
infinit
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:42 am

And I like how Hollywood movies depict the flight attendants of US-based carriers as friendly and helpful beyond believe :P
 
VC10er
Topic Author
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:11 pm

I'm ok with some inaccuracy when it comes to aircraft scenes, I undertstand the logistical issues etc. However I hold AA responsible for follow-through. United, Delta or American choose if they want their brand (basically advertised) in a major motion pic. AA signed a contract for sure, if there was money exchanged especially. The main characters say "American Airlines" often. The PA at the airport announces "AMERICAN AIRLINES 167 TO MANILA IS NOW BOARDING", on board it was not a set (I don't think) - it was an AA 777 interior and both runaway spies take seats in the AA angled lie-flat business seats, with AA symbols and even the bulkhead design.

Then to show a 747 in flight was something AA should have said "hey! Wait you can't show a 747!"

It didnt ruin the movie, the plot did (for me) but when I saw the 747, I did think "really?? the director and/or the continuity team - someone - who had the job to show an airplane at cruise, demonstrating they got away, had to apply some thought?" Even a black silhouette of a plane at night, with no clear branding, could at LEAST choose something other than the worlds most recognized airplane, which AA does not fly!

This has been a riot to read. Thanks to everyone.

(What's worst for me was JJ Abrams moving "Delta Vega" across the galaxy and next to Vulcan  . That was far worse!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
j77w
Posts: 30
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:09 pm

Slightly off-topic, but then again maybe not - can we bring the small screen (that is to say, television) into this topic?

There are only 2 instances I have seen in fictional television, where I have seen continuity, realism and accuracy, followed almost to a fault.

And I don't know if it has been discussed in a separate topic, but in Japan (and I kinda think only the Japanese could get away with this kind of product placement), two television series were produced, each centered around Japan's 2 major carriers:

1. "Good Luck" (2003): revolves around and up-and-coming pilot at ANA
2. "Attention Please" (2006): revolves around a punk rocker training to be a Cabin Attendant at JAL (as punk rockers generally do   )

Whilst both series have their central character, but both series go to what I would have thought as a helluva a lot of trouble to get everything as accurate as possible. No "archival" external shots and "generic" cabin set, regardless of what is outside: if you see the characters outside a 777, you'll see them on a 777 cabin. See an external shot of a 767 taking off, and sure enough, the main character is making an announcement on what is unmistakably a 767! And so on and so on.

I came across these two shows by accident on youtube - anyone else here seen them?
 
richierich
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 1):
Because 99.9% of the viewers don't know. You have to realize that if you are an aviation person, you are going to find flaws related to aviation. It is no different probably, if you are a cop watching a police movie or a football player watching a football movie. My point is, most movies are loaded with flaws throughout the film, but if you are not knowledgeable in a particular area, you will never know.

Nothing you wrote is incorrect but it does not really answer the OP's question. Just because many people don't care, doesn't necessarily excuse those involved from getting some facts correct.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 9):
One word:...Budget!...

And that, my friends, is the real reason!
Being technically accurate over an immaterial piece of the movie costs extra money. For AA to pull an actual plane out of service while cabin filming takes place, not to mention filming the aircraft in-flight and during takeoff/landing would be a huge expense that really does not add or detract from the film for the vast majority of viewers.
None shall pass!!!!
 
RubberJungle
Posts: 302
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 25):
Dusty is indentified (correctly) as having a PT6 engine

Am I the only one bewildered as to how anything can be "correctly" identified on a cartoon talking aircraft with goggle eyes?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 64):
Am I the only one bewildered as to how anything can be "correctly" identified on a cartoon talking aircraft with goggle eyes?

But the whole thread is about accuracy in movies, which are not real. People are demanding accuracy in a film like The Wedding Singer when the actions on the plane would never happen in real life so why does it matter that the interior is sort of like a 747 but the exterior isn't sort of like one?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
RubberJungle
Posts: 302
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):
But the whole thread is about accuracy in movies, which are not real.

Exactly the point...
 
tjh8402
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 64):
Am I the only one bewildered as to how anything can be "correctly" identified on a cartoon talking aircraft with goggle eyes?

Dusty is an Air Tractor. Air Tractor partnered with Disney on the movie and are actively using it to promote their (PT6 powered) crop dusting airplanes. see:

http://www.airtractor.com/news/2013/05/air-tractor-goes-hollywood

Despite being a cartoon with goggle eyes, many of the vehicles in the Cars (and now Planes) are modeled on real life prototypes and, they sweat the details. Pixar recorded the exhaust notes of the actual cars featured in the movie (which is something that Hollywood get's wrong all the time - always fun to point out while watching TV or a movie with people). In Cars, the sound of the beetles that were flying around (and were of course VW Beetles) was actually the sound of the VW's famous flat 4 sped up. The license plate number on the front of Luigi, the life long Tifosi Fiat 500, is the longitude and latitude coordinates of Ferrari's factory in Italy. It goes on.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317219/trivia
 
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cjg225
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 54):
Movie/TV/video game/etc. aircraft-related mistakes and themes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustPlaneWrong

TVtropes is one of the best websites on the Internet.

I should've figured they had an entry on this topic...
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alberchico
Posts: 3280
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 58):
Quoting mbk1999 (Reply 23):
Well let's give credit to movies that did go the extra mile using dedicated planes like 'Executive Decision' and, bad as it was, 'Turbulence'.

Don't forget "Passenger 57" where they used an L-1011 the whole way through.

I simply love Airplane where the exterior shots of the plane flying are noises from a propeller plane

Surprised nobody mentioned this gem, I was amazed they went out and used an actual L-1011 as well as accurate interior and cockpit scenes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPqML9D4n1g
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mandala499
Posts: 6600
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 45):
Fair play to FedEx to agree featuring in a movie where one of their aircraft ends up crashing. I would like the whole movie a tiny bit less if they had to make up the name of a freight company. I enjoyed pausing the movie a couple of times when they were in Memphis!

FedEx got a bargain deal in my opinion... So what, the airplane crashed? The point FedEx fell for was that the guy delivered the package despite after crashing and being stuck on the island on his own for a few years to come back to find his family has moved on thinking he was dead etc etc etc.... so a marketing bonus for FedEx... "so what? We're so dedicated we'd still deliver it if we can after all that!"... and for free? Yeah, it's a bargain! (One of the FedEx franchisee around the world thought it was a bargain deal after seeing the movie).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
RubberJungle
Posts: 302
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 67):
Dusty is an Air Tractor. Air Tractor partnered with Disney on the movie and are actively using it to promote their (PT6 powered) crop dusting airplanes.

Which just makes the whole exercise even more corporate and soulless than I'd thought. Animation gives you the freedom to unleash the imagination, and they've used it to recreate good old reality right down to the tiniest detail. Bravo. Talk about bleeding the life out of the picture.

Disney must be rolling in his grave.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 67):
Despite being a cartoon with goggle eyes, many of the vehicles in the Cars (and now Planes) are modeled on real life prototypes and, they sweat the details.

Cars sucked too. What a coincidence.

[Edited 2013-09-10 00:55:06]
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
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RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:48 am

Quoting hh65man (Reply 8):
That's not real, you can't launch a crop duster off a carrier"......blah, blah ,blah..........
Quoting scbriml (Reply 38):
Yep, I loved that one. Especially watching an An-12 take off from a carrier!

An Air Tractor and an An-12? Sure they could. Aim the carrier into the wind and accelerate to 20 knots or so and neither aircraft would have any problem. No cat needed.
 
tjh8402
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:30 am

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 71):

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 67):
Dusty is an Air Tractor. Air Tractor partnered with Disney on the movie and are actively using it to promote their (PT6 powered) crop dusting airplanes.

Which just makes the whole exercise even more corporate and soulless than I'd thought. Animation gives you the freedom to unleash the imagination, and they've used it to recreate good old reality right down to the tiniest detail. Bravo. Talk about bleeding the life out of the picture.

Disney must be rolling in his grave.

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 67):
Despite being a cartoon with goggle eyes, many of the vehicles in the Cars (and now Planes) are modeled on real life prototypes and, they sweat the details.

Cars sucked too. What a coincidence.

And here's where we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, these movies have been a celebration of the love for 2 of my 3 big passions in life (just need them to make "Trains" now), full of gold nuggets that only enthusiasts would get hidden in the animation, audio, and dialogue. Car culture gets panned in the media all the time for being "wasteful" and "socially irresponsible", and as has been noted in this thread, airplanes in the entertainment industry generally get treated as backdrop pieces. As an adult in to these things, it's great to see these wonders of innovation and engineering get their moment of in the spotlight on the big screen, and to have tribute paid by people who clearly share a similar passion for them as I do.

The other benefit is that an here in the US at least, interest in mechanical things is waning among younger generations, and maybe/hopefully these will inspire them keep that love affair going into the future. my love of planes began with a single F-15 Eagle toy I was given and a tv documentary I saw about the former Norlfolk & Westerm J Class steam engine no 611 was what started my passion for trains. Who knows what a movie can do. Then again, maybe I'm just happy that Disney made a kids movie that doesn't involve princesses.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Why No Airline Accuracy In Movies?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:15 am

A movie that was 100% accurate about aviation would not gain a single viewer, so why should a studio spend the additional money?

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