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scbriml
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:55 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 49):
This has nothing to do with whether it will be repaired. It is a standard brand protection measure.

It is, but even with the titles 'censored' it's not like it bares no resemblance to the dozens of other TG planes moving around BKK.

To even the least plane-savvy passenger, it will be immediately identifiable as a TG bird.   
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PanHAM
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:00 am

Blurring the titles is normal routine. in the old days before handling agents, when airlines had their own stations with own staff, there was always a bucket of paint or 2 on hand in the office and it was the station managers duty to make sure that as soon as it was possible to paint over the airline name.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
skipness1E
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:01 am

Blurring the titles is a joke, it serves no purpose. Only a blind man could fail to see it was a Thai machine.
When G-YMMM crashed at LHR, it was in full BA colours until it was scrapped I think? They took the tail off to stop it swinging in the wind.
 
hotplane
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:34 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
The tiles have been covered already.

What about large purple section aft the wing! Painting out the titles does diddly squat!
?
 
mmedford
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:52 am

Quoting hotplane (Reply 53):

What about large purple section aft the wing! Painting out the titles does diddly squat!

The local hardware store only had so many rattle cans of black krylon on hand...Not like there is a standard "In cases of emergency"...
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
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EPA001
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:15 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):
Blurring the titles is normal routine.

I have read once that it is at least a standard protocol for Star Aliiance members.

Luckily only a few mildly injured passengers who mostly got injured leaving the aircraft using the slides.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:46 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 50):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 49):
This has nothing to do with whether it will be repaired. It is a standard brand protection measure.

It is, but even with the titles 'censored' it's not like it bares no resemblance to the dozens of other TG planes moving around BKK.

To even the least plane-savvy passenger, it will be immediately identifiable as a TG bird.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 52):

Blurring the titles is a joke, it serves no purpose. Only a blind man could fail to see it was a Thai machine.
Quoting hotplane (Reply 53):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
The tiles have been covered already.

What about large purple section aft the wing! Painting out the titles does diddly squat!

I think you're all grossly overestimating the attention span of non-aviation geeks for liveries and model identification. The vast majority of people have no idea unless it is a 747 or a 380, and even then it is touch and go. All of us here can recognize the plane at a glance. The average passenger hardly pays attention to such things. Go ahead, ask a non-aviation geek to identify a plane that isn't British Airways or American Airlines. Say, Aeroflot or Japan Airlines or Cathay Pacific with the titles blurred.

I think you're also underestimating the power of association, and how breaking a chain of association by painting over the titles has a significant effect on brand awareness. As it is, the press pictures of the accident spread across the web and print media will not have "Thai" spelled out right on the fuselage of a crashed plane. Even if people are consciously aware that it is a Thai plane, they will not make the association automatically the next time they taxi past one or book a ticket. Unlike the Asiana crash, this one hardly made the news, and will be forgotten within days. The blurred titles simply makes it harder to stick in the mind of "normal people".

If the practice served no purpose it would not be done. Airlines try hard not to spend money on frivolous things.


I recall a post from a few years ago where it was described how an elderly couple was wondering what airline it was that had a burning green plane by the taxiway. Turns out they were referring to the firefighting trainer, which does not look much like a real plane. Nevertheless, they did think it was a real one.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 52):
When G-YMMM crashed at LHR, it was in full BA colours until it was scrapped I think? They took the tail off to stop it swinging in the wind.

Different situation. First of all, British Airways is instantly recognizable by pretty much any Briton so unless you dip the entire thing in white paint there's not much point. Secondly, the crash received wall to wall media coverage. Hard to hide. Thirdly, it was very soon clear that the BA pilots had saved the plane from a much worse fate. The thing was practically a billboard for BA hero pilots.

[Edited 2013-09-09 04:57:24]

[Edited 2013-09-09 04:58:08]
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wowpeter
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:18 pm

I wonder what happen... I landed on the other runway (19R, that Thai was on 19L) in Bangkok literally 2 aircraft after that Thai Airways (Emirates A380 was in front of us on 19R)... Didn't hear that Thai flight calling Mayday or PanPan prior to landing... So what ever happen, this must have happen after landing... I was 20 miles behind on 19R, the tower came on the radio and tell everyone that BKK is now single runway operations, 19L is close... We thought it was just runway maintenance or something, didn't even realize Thai had an accident until we got to the immigration... Glad that everyone got out ok after landing...
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:22 pm

I think the title should read "accident", not "incident". There is a difference...
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bwest
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:38 pm

Not just Star Alliance policy I think. Remember the Carpatair / Alitalia ATR that went off runway... that one was completely white the next day, save for the registration and (romanian) flag.

Quoting wowpeter (Reply 57):
Different situation. First of all, British Airways is instantly recognizable by pretty much any Briton so unless you dip the entire thing in white paint there's not much point.

I'd say Thai Airways is probably just as easily recognisable to every Thai, just as BA is recognizable to all Brits. Agree with your other points though  Wink

[Edited 2013-09-09 05:39:07]
 
sankaps
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting wowpeter (Reply 57):
I was 20 miles behind on 19R, the tower came on the radio and tell everyone that BKK is now single runway operations, 19L is close... We thought it was just runway maintenance or something, didn't even realize Thai had an accident

Interesting that they did not close the airport, unlike Heathrow which was closed twice recently when emergency vehicles were called out for emergencies -- the BA 319 with the blown engine cowlings, and the ET 787 apron fire.

It does make one wonder whether Heathrow is overly quick to close the airport, or whether BKK is overly lax... both two runway operations.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:24 pm

Left engine looks worse than it really is--it appears that just the front intake was ripped off and that is easily replaced. Boroscope it for further damage. Nice thing about the A330 engines is that if one stage is bad you don't have to pull the whole engine--just replace the first fan stage or whatever. Probably ingested a lot of dirt unless the pilots had already shut them down. Number 2 may be another story.

The big unknown is the underbelly structure--if there is significant damage there it could well be a write off on an 18 year old airframe.

Another great job by a VERY professional group of flight attendants. My personal thanks to you all--you make our profession proud.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
magpie75
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 6):

Aircraft looks pretty bad.... I wonder if weather is a factor here...anyone knows the METAR ?

TRB

I was on JQ30 last night which departed BKK at 22:30 and light rain was falling, certainly leaving the Bangkok area was a little bumpy with some turbulence.
 
Ychocky
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 60):
Interesting that they did not close the airport, unlike Heathrow which was closed twice recently when emergency vehicles were called out for emergencies -- the BA 319 with the blown engine cowlings, and the ET 787 apron fire.

It does make one wonder whether Heathrow is overly quick to close the airport, or whether BKK is overly lax... both two runway operations.

I'm thinking BKK was not at peak demand at the time of the incident.

The recent ET fire was in the middle of the day and Heathrow simply doesn't have the flexibility and parking space even at the best of times.
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting tommy525 (Reply 33):
18 year old A330? May not be worthwhile to repair.

It may be the planes last landing.

This is cn066 in A330/340 production list, and it was meant to be retired in the very near future, likewise MH is doing with its ageing A333 fleet (those A333 in older MH scheme).

Don't forget TG operates a brand new fleet of RR powered A330-300E for its regional network as a replacement to the older PW powered A330-322.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 61):
Another great job by a VERY professional group of flight attendants. My personal thanks to you all--you make our profession proud.

         , yet once again.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
sankaps
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 61):
Another great job by a VERY professional group of flight attendants. My personal thanks to you all--you make our profession proud.

To be honest, we do not have any info yet on the evacuation and how it was handled, what role the FAs had in it, whether they did a great job or not, what role the passengers played, etc. I expect and am hopeful they would have done a good job thanks to their training. But we just don't know for sure as yet.
 
na
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 64):
This is cn066 in A330/340 production list, and it was meant to be retired in the very near future, likewise MH is doing with its ageing A333 fleet (those A333 in older MH scheme).

I would be surprised if this plane would fly again. Not that I think it isnt possible, 99% sure it is, but as you said, its a rather high-cycled regional plane short of scheduled retirement. If that planned retirement is just one or two years ahead they wont repair it.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:45 pm

So, did the NLG fail for mechanical/maintenance/bad luck reasons, or was the thing slammed into the runway ? Maybe a NLG landing like that woman pilot in India (no offense) ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sankaps
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 67):
Maybe a NLG landing like that woman pilot in India (no offense) ?

Or that woman pilot more recently in New York's La Guardia (no offense)?  
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 34):
Logos and rego's painted out. Pretty definitive.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
The tiles have been covered already.

This is to avoid bad publicity. Airlines HATE to have their names displayed on aircraft wrecks that are visible to the flying public.
Removing the covers is a matter of minutes if they eventually (unlikely) decide to out in back in service.
When I doubt... go running!
 
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Aesma
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:00 pm

From avherald it appears the NLG didn't collapse after all, but rather it was not right and caused the plane to veer off runway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
max550
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 55):
I have read once that it is at least a standard protocol for Star Aliiance members.

I don't believe Asiana ever blacked out their name after the crash at SFO.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Amir Salehi



This article has a picture from 5 days later and you can see that no effort was made to black out the name of the airline.
http://www.businessinsider.com/korea...g-after-deadly-asiana-crash-2013-7
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting magpie75 (Reply 62):
I wonder if weather is a factor here...anyone knows the METAR ?

Yes, it was already published. Just follow the link: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok (by LH648 Sep 8 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
PanHAM
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:44 pm

I just had a good laugh about FAZ which is one of the leading nationwide daily newspapers in Germany. Their on-line service showed the picture with the blackened Thai logo and the text said

"rescue teams cut a hole into the fuselage to rescue people."

A reader told them that this is mnot a hole but black paint.

They actually did acknowledge in direct reply, thanked the reader and changed the text

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Omega1153
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 69):
This is to avoid bad publicity.

Interestingly then, most mainstream media are giving TG bad publicity over this decision ( Business Insider calling it an "awkward" move and CNN quoting a member of the public as describing it as "the most bizarre piece of corporate spin ever").

Not judging this decision myself, but noting that it does not seem to have had its intended effect...
Fiat Iustitia Ruat Caelum
 
richierich
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 71):
I don't believe Asiana ever blacked out their name after the crash at SFO.

Did they really have to? I think the fire took care of blackening out their name!
None shall pass!!!!
 
boeingguy26
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting ay-md11 (Reply 36):
First the A380 turbulence incident

When did this happen?
 
AY-MD11
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:33 pm

 
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Aesma
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting Omega1153 (Reply 74):
Interestingly then, most mainstream media are giving TG bad publicity over this decision ( Business Insider calling it an "awkward" move and CNN quoting a member of the public as describing it as "the most bizarre piece of corporate spin ever").

Slow news day and lack of journalism here, since this happens very often.

Next time they'll use white paint, though, and journos won't notice anything.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):

I just had a good laugh about FAZ which is one of the leading nationwide daily newspapers in Germany. Their on-line service showed the picture with the blackened Thai logo and the text said

"rescue teams cut a hole into the fuselage to rescue people."

A reader told them that this is mnot a hole but black paint.

They actually did acknowledge in direct reply, thanked the reader and changed the text

OMG, this is really bad. Such journalists are useless to say the least. You would think that someone working for that newspaper should have some basic knowledge of aviation, given the importance aviation has in that region, but obviously that's not the case...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:39 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 71):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 55):
I have read once that it is at least a standard protocol for Star Aliiance members.

I don't believe Asiana ever blacked out their name after the crash at SFO.

Too big an event. There was no way to spin that one. In the Thai case it hasn't been as widely reported.

Quoting ay-md11 (Reply 36):
Not good month for Thai Airways. First the A380 turbulence incident and now this.

The turbulence one was hardly their fault. Sadly the average pax is not aware of this.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Milesdependent
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:57 am

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...5/thai-landing-mishap-shuts-runway

Good article here which shows the full aircraft and titles painted over.
 
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ADent
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:33 am

Kind of looks like the right main gear is rotated 90 deg.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 60):
Interesting that they did not close the airport, unlike Heathrow which was closed twice recently when emergency vehicles were called out for emergencies -- the BA 319 with the blown engine cowlings, and the ET 787 apron fire.

It does make one wonder whether Heathrow is overly quick to close the airport, or whether BKK is overly lax... both two runway operations.

It was reported in the 787 incident at LHR that they have 2 sets of emergency crews and there was already another incident happening at the same time. With crew #1 busy and crew #2 working the 787 there was nobody to quickly respond to another.
 
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ADent
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:55 am

As I suspected above the right main gear failed.

Aviation Herald ( http://avherald.com/h?article=4681fccd&opt=0 ) reports the right main bogie failed on the runway and did some damage to the surface.

There is a nice photo of the runway damage: http://avherald.com/img/thai_a333_hs-tef_bangkok_130908_6.jpg
 
jourdan747
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 am

The aircraft had its logo painted over so nobody can identify it:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ogo-isnt-terribly-effective#r=read
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:12 am

On twitter I've seen a Star Alliance Twitt indicating clearly that painting logos is not part of Star Alliance crisis management !
So what ? Thai spent the whole monday saying the exact opposite !
 
davidho1985
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:06 am

I want to know why so many medias are focusing on the action of "covering the airline's name and logo by the paint"???

Almost every time when the airline expect that the aircaft which involved in an accident / incident / crash etc. will stay in the scene for a few days (or an extended period of time), they will cover up their name and logo. It seems to be a normal practice and nothing special.

[Edited 2013-09-10 01:07:21]
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:29 am

To blacken out the tail of an airline which crashed at its home airport is smart! Imagine the thousands of Thai passengers flying Thai seeing this crash before their flight is nerve wrecking. However, if Thai crashed in Tahiti airport or whatever, then its no need to paint over the titles.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:58 pm

In the case of an MLG truck failure, is it reasonable to expect the crew to maintain control of the aircraft, or is that pretty much a "do the best you can" situation?

Quoting MilesDependent (Reply 81):
Good article here which shows the full aircraft and titles painted over.

Says the aircraft landed "as normal" and then rolled for about 1km (3300 feet) before the MLG truck broke and the aircraft departed the runway. At a typical landing weight, how fast would an A330 be traveling 3300 feet after touchdown?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Viscount724
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:09 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 55):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):
Blurring the titles is normal routine.

I have read once that it is at least a standard protocol for Star Aliiance members.

Star Alliance has denied that there is any such policy.



Quoting richierich (Reply 75):
Quoting max550 (Reply 71):
I don't believe Asiana ever blacked out their name after the crash at SFO.

Did they really have to? I think the fire took care of blackening out their name!


Only the first "A" in Asiana on right side was blacked out from the fire.The entire name was still visible on the left side.

[Edited 2013-09-10 13:25:09 by SA7700]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:16 pm

The practice of painting out the airline name and logo goes way back to the piston days. It was very common. In this case, I wonder if it was done because Thai's insurers had written the aircraft off and TK no longer wanted any association with the frame.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
sankaps
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:24 pm

A report on post-crash passenger handling in Bangkok Post at http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...s-international-accident-response.

Seems like the airport / ground staff were not at all prepared and did not handle the situation well.

Flight and cabin crew get positive reports for the most part, except for an unverified claim that some left the aircraft before the passengers.
 
trex8
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 91):
Flight and cabin crew get positive reports for the most part, except for an unverified claim that some left the aircraft before the passengers.

I was researching some other crashes related to another thread I have been following and the Japanese accident investigation board actually commented on the lack of adequate number of crew at the bottom of the slides to direct the pax where to go after deplaning in the CI 737 fire in Okinawa. So some crew have to go down that slide first before the passengers or at least with the first few!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 90):
In this case, I wonder if it was done because Thai's insurers had written the aircraft off and TK no longer wanted any association with the frame.

I doubt that the insurers would make a decision that fast. Probably takes more time just to exchange information. 

Jokes aside, I imagine it would take at least a week or so for an "official" decision on proper company stationery.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
davidho1985
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:27 am

RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 93):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 90):In this case, I wonder if it was done because Thai's insurers had written the aircraft off and TK no longer wanted any association with the frame.
I doubt that the insurers would make a decision that fast. Probably takes more time just to exchange information.

Agree, the incident happened at the late night, and the logo got covered before next morning (no media got a day-light photo with the logo displayed on the plane).
I don't think insurance company will have enough time to make such an "expensive" decision in just a few hours.
May be they were notified an incident has happened and some basic information about the aircaft, I doubt they have sufficient information to decide whether to write it off at that time.

[Edited 2013-09-10 18:43:13]
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 94):
Agree, the incident happened at the late night, and the logo got covered before next morning (no media got a day-light photo with the logo displayed on the plane).

Seems to have been covered in the dead of night I doubt that assesors had even seen the aircraft.
BV
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:20 am

Hi BoeingVista, that picture is not working (it gives a 403 forbidden).
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:37 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 96):
Hi BoeingVista, that picture is not working (it gives a 403 forbidden).

The coverup continues! But a cache is a wonderful thing..



Looks like the airport fire services were still in attendance when the men came to duct tape over the logos, thats pretty fast work.

[Edited 2013-09-11 01:41:56]
BV
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:41 am

Excellent, thanks  
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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teme82
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RE: Thai A330 Incident In Bangkok

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:48 am

Why on earth they covered the logo's?? Even a kid who is familiar in Thai's livery can say that it's their plane...
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos