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Piedmont727
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:14 am

hey everyone! I apologize if im bringing back a topic already discussed , but after reading about some airports possibly closing runways for now lack of traffic from there previous self , and I started to wonder , what would Dallas Love Field be today if southwest airlines joined the others and left it when Dallas Fort Worth international was opened , I wasn't alive then so I don't know much about how DAL was traffic wise with general aviation and weather that would have kept the airport around and it'd be one of those airports ( like fort worth Meacham ) as mainly a general aviation airport or maybe like alliance fort worth was (a maintenance base for a major airline like American Intel they recently left   ) or would DAL have sadly ended up like Greater Southwest international , abandoned and turned into office buildings and the runway into a big road ( you can actually still see part of the old runway and turn on taxi way sitting in DFW property) but what do you all think would have happened?

-Piedmont727
 
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par13del
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:18 am

DAL would be only GA traffic or closed down like they did in Denver.
 
mtnwest1979
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 am

IMO, it would have remained as a GA/business aviation airport like Pal-Waukee,IL; Sacramento Executive,CA; Santa Monica,CA etc.
With its close proximity to downtown Dallas, I believe that this alone would have made it the choice business aviation related field in the Dallas area.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
PHX787
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:30 am

G4 would want a piece of DAL. I could also see F9 operating there...somehow.

If WN wasn't so present, I'd see DAL as somewhat like AZA.
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capejet
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:41 am

If Southwest moved to DFW, Dallas Love Field would have remained open, but only to General Aviation, as that was the agreement between Dallas and Ft Worth. But I am sure that over time another carrier would come along and figured out that they had a legal right to use the airport, and once they started using Love Field all the lawsuits would take place, and the new airline would prevail, and so on and so on.

If Dallas had really closed Love Field, I think that area would have developed into another Las Colinas (the business center in Irving TX) type development. The land Love Field is sitting on is just too valuable, it is such a prime location.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:50 am

Could one ask the same question about HOU and WN?
What was MDW like before the WN expansion?
Interesting topic OP!
I was told there would be cookies...
 
DfwRevolution
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:12 am

Agree that DAL would have persisted as a GA airport without Southwest.

Seriously disagree about the land value comment. Airports are more highly developed infrastructure in terms of sheer investment than office parks by multiple orders of magnitude. The economic activity density of an airport with regular passenger and cargo service is also sky high. Demand for urban airport infrastructure will continue to grow as it is very difficult to expand their capacity, whereas you can build office parks, residential areas, or mixed use communities just about anywhere. The DFW area doesn't have onerous zoning laws or any natural barriers to growth until you hit Oklahoma.
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sccutler
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Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:55 am

DAL would be a thriving GA field, without regard to whether SWA was there or not. It supports no fewer than six (6) thriving FBOs, and hosts many, many aviation-related businesses.

I am always amused by how many people seem to think that aviation begins and ends with airliners - simply not so.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:55 am

I took single-engine propeller flight instruction at MDW in 1980/81. It had a small amount of Airline traffic, since Midway was already started up, and NW operated a MSP flight or two, and the same for DL to STL. Midway flew to CLE, MCI, and Detroit (not sure if DTW or DET) at that time.

However it wasn't as busy as Palwaukee or DuPage County. I would put it more at the traffic level of PIA in those days, but with dirtier air.

Then after moving to California, I was really amazed to see they fit so many gates on the airfield and then put the ticket counters and baggage claim across the street.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
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par13del
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:34 am

Quoting capejet (Reply 4):
If Southwest moved to DFW, Dallas Love Field would have remained open, but only to General Aviation, as that was the agreement between Dallas and Ft Worth. But I am sure that over time another carrier would come along and figured out that they had a legal right to use the airport,

A good observation, whether WN is liked or not, the court system did have a legal ruling allowing them access, so if WN had not challenged for use, could some other new carrier have done the same in another couple years?
DAL & DFW politicians would probably have done a Megis just to be sure, the only way the politicians would have been able to preserve their demands would have been to reduce runway lengths to force only GA traffic or simply close the airport.
Who is going to challenge for use of a demolished airport?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:18 pm

What would have happened to Dallas Love - look at Fort Worth Meacham for the answer.

Yes, DAL does have a larger GA jet basis than FTW. That operation would likely have even been larger and better. I would have expected the west runway to be closed by now and everything west (or south) of the terminal area to be different commercial development.

Likely ADS would have fewer corporate jets, and possibly TKI. Had Love been a cheaper, easier corp jet location - those airports would have suffered. RBD would be closed and consolidated into DAL.

Quoting capejet (Reply 4):
once they started using Love Field all the lawsuits would take place, and the new airline would prevail
Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
could some other new carrier have done the same in another couple years?

A new carrier would not have won a lawsuit. The WN lawsuit was based on two points (1) their existing operations history at DAL, and (2) their limited range of flights. A city/ airport owner, has a perfect right to stop supporting commercial passenger operations at an airport. The fire department would have been downgraded to below passenger requirements, and likely the terminal building demolished quickly.

The only 'new carrier' that could have a legal basis for a lawsuit would have to be a twin of WN - competing head to head with them in the same markets.

Remember the basis for limiting flights at DAL was the legal contract between the owner of DAL - the City of Dallas and the City of Fort Worth. The City of Dallas fought against keeping DAL open to passenger service.

Once they were able to close DAL - nothing would have been able to make the city reopen the airport.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 5):
Could one ask the same question about HOU and WN?

The city of Houston did not enter into a legal contract with other cities requiring that HOU be closed. Yes, I do agree that without WN, HOU would likely have closed passenger ops eventually. But because there are only economic forces in play between IAH and HOU - it would have been purely business driven.

Not the political and legal circus in Dallas.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
hivue
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 5):
Interesting topic OP!

An equally interesting topic is "Would Southwest still be around without DAL?"

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
Not the political and legal circus in Dallas

The circus was not just Dallas, it was Dallas vs Fort Worth. The feds evuntually got tired of it, knocked their heads together like a couple of misbehaving children, and DFW was the result. The fly in the ointment (at the risk of mixing metaphors) though was WN, so then we had a brand new circus.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 11):
An equally interesting topic is "Would Southwest still be around without DAL?"

I think so of course, they would have just used HOU
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 pm

I have old AA time tables from the early 70s (pre DFW) and its showed AA had scheduled 747s from DAL to SFO/LAX/JFK.... That would have been a sight. I am sure the DC10s operated there to, but dont have time tables to support that.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:32 pm

Yep, DL, BN and AA had 747s at DAL (never witnessed them myself), but a few pics in the DB


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Mel Lawrence


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Photo © Daniel T Jones



Found Delta and Braniff, nothing from AA.

[Edited 2013-09-10 08:33:38]

[Edited 2013-09-10 08:34:05]
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
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par13del
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 11):
An equally interesting topic is "Would Southwest still be around without DAL?"
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
I think so of course, they would have just used HOU

Well if we go that route, how soon would it have been when folks saw WN growing that they attempted to get HOU into the DFW debate, but yes, interesting.

If WN were forced to move to DFW I think we can all agree on the outcome, during those times there were no holds barred on doing everything short of illegal measues to kill start ups.
 
hivue
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
they would have just used HOU

They did that. But Houston and San Antonio minus Dallas might not have worked out too well. As it was I think WN just barely survived the early days.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 13):
I have old AA time tables from the early 70s (pre DFW) and its showed AA had scheduled 747s from DAL to SFO/LAX/JFK.... That would have been a sight.

It was. Maybe one of these days I can find the photo I took of one departing 13R (called "the parallel runway" at the time) and scan the slide and post it.

[Edited 2013-09-10 10:18:36]
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
rampart
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
I think we can all agree on the outcome, during those times there were no holds barred on doing everything short of illegal measues to kill start ups.

Somewhat like WN does now to startups. Either purchase a competitor, merge with it, or use overwhelming size to outcompete it. Muse Air. Morris Air. Midway. ATA. Airtran. Frontier. Am I missing any?
 
blueflyer
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 13):
I have old AA time tables from the early 70s (pre DFW) and its showed AA had scheduled 747s from DAL to SFO/LAX/JFK.

DAL still see aircraft as big as the 767 regularly, whether it is MLW's charter or Astar's freighter (at least until DHL left the domestic overnight market), and even a VC-25 from time to time.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
What would have happened to Dallas Love - look at Fort Worth Meacham for the answer.

Were it not in turn for 9/11 and the agreement to repeal Wright, FTW probably would have commercial service by now. It would be very popular right about now given how much fun the drive to DFW thanks to incessant bottlenecks due to road constructions.

At the same time, while the city of Ft Worth did invest in a few gates for the short-lived Mesa hub, I can't imagine that the city would have pushed much harder to develop FTW since it benefits so much from DFW, and not just because most of the developed land within the DFW perimeter is technically in Ft Worth...
 
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par13del
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 17):
Somewhat like WN does now to startups.

Yes, simply replace WN with any of the legaicies around at the time, any 3 plane carrier would be cannon fodder.

Quoting rampart (Reply 17):
or use overwhelming size to outcompete it.

That was the mantra of the day. You do raise an interesting point, you think that WN was ahead of its time with mergers and AA, US, UA and DL learned from them, certainely AA did something with TWA but PanAM, Eastern Air Florida and others were allowed to go away.
Interesting.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
The city of Houston did not enter into a legal contract with other cities requiring that HOU be closed.

When IAH was opened, HOU was closed for a while ( 3 years I think) to nothing but GA traffic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bush_Intercontinental_Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_P._Hobby_Airport

But the Civil Aeronautics board actually recommended the City of Houston to replace HOU because there was no room to expand. Dallas' problem was that there were two major cities with 2 good-sized airports that didn't want to cooperate.
When wasn't America great?


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sccutler
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
DAL & DFW politicians would probably have done a Megis just to be sure, the only way the politicians would have been able to preserve their demands would have been to reduce runway lengths to force only GA traffic or simply close the airport.
Who is going to challenge for use of a demolished airport?

Seriously? Love Field was, and always has been, and will for the foreseeable future be, a huge source of business and jobs to Dallas. No way, no how, Love Field was ever in any meaningful danger of being closed and demolished.

Quoting hivue (Reply 11):
The fly in the ointment (at the risk of mixing metaphors) though was WN, so then we had a brand new circus.

Thank goodness!

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 13):
I am sure the DC10s operated there to, but dont have time tables to support that

the 10s were regularly scheduled into and out of Love Field; AA overnighted one at the end of their concourse (the west one, just recently demolished) and always had big flood lights on it so visitors to the airport could easily see the plane. Very impressive.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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par13del
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
Seriously? Love Field was,

The owners of Love Field signed the agreement to close the airport to commercial traffic and move to DFW, howvever much money they were making at the time they decided to give it all up for a piece of the pie at DFW.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
and will for the foreseeable future be, a huge source of business and jobs to Dallas. No way, no how, Love Field was ever in any meaningful danger of being closed and demolished.

Now yes, but the thread was about what would have happened if WN had not won in court and forced the airport to continue commercial aviation. Indeed some of the concessions they wrangled for teh repeal of the WA does restrict the airport more than its physical and operational limits.

I'm saying that if the DAL owners thought there was a chance of the case going to court and loosing they would have done a Megis, I could be wrong but based on the writings at the time, I think its a safe bet that if they could have they would.
 
capejet
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:50 am

I wonder what would have happened to Braniff if Southwest had moved to DFW. Do you think WN would have hastened their demise? If WN operated at DFW they would have been able to fly nonstop to places like Kansas City, they could not do that from Love Field. Braniff and AA would have had much more competition from WN. I also wonder if there would ever have been a DL hub at DFW. I have a feeling WN would have grown so much more at DFW that DL would have looked elsewhere for a mid continent hub.
 
prosa
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:15 am

MDW's ability to survive without airline traffic is a tough question to answer. It probably would not have attracted anywhere near as much GA activity as DAL, but it might have been able to remain open simply because it's not in a particularly desirable location from the standpoint of real estate developers.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
A new carrier would not have won a lawsuit. The WN lawsuit was based on two points (1) their existing operations history at DAL, and (2) their limited range of flights. A city/ airport owner, has a perfect right to stop supporting commercial passenger operations at an airport. The fire department would have been downgraded to below passenger requirements, and likely the terminal building demolished quickly.

How freakin' DEPRESSING! Glad it didn't turn out that way!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting capejet (Reply 23):
I wonder what would have happened to Braniff if Southwest had moved to DFW. Do you think WN would have hastened their demise? If WN operated at DFW they would have been able to fly nonstop to places like Kansas City, they could not do that from Love Field. Braniff and AA would have had much more competition from WN. I also wonder if there would ever have been a DL hub at DFW. I have a feeling WN would have grown so much more at DFW that DL would have looked elsewhere for a mid continent hub.

You're probably right about BN and AA. But DL has/had a long history in the Dallas area between DAL & DFW. I don't see it being any different from the other two. WN's effects would likely have been pretty evenly distributed, IMO.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 16):
It was. Maybe one of these days I can find the photo I took of one departing 13R (called "the parallel runway" at the time) and scan the slide and post it.

Please do!! I can ONLY imagine what the view from Bachman Lake or Mockingbird Lane would have been like back then (with DC10s, L1011s, various styles of DC8s and 707s also mixed in)! Man, I sure would have loved to be around back then!!
Great Lakes, great life.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:52 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 24):
MDW's ability to survive without airline traffic is a tough question to answer.

That question has already been answered. MDW went through very lean years in the 60s and 70s with a number of daily flights that can be counted on one hand. There was a false start revival in the early 1970s but for the most part, it was reasonably busy with GA.

The City of Chicago kept it open because that is what City Hall wanted. It isn't a profit/loss situation, it is Chicago.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:56 am

This is one of those topics that could bring in A-Net member cjpark to the discussion. The reason can be summed up in the signature he uses as follows:

"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart".

This is not in anyway a slam on cj. I admire the firmness of his convictions and enjoy his responces here but many of us don't see eye to eye on his feeling that Southwest should have set up at DFW. I will actually be disappointed if he doesn't chime in here.
 
hivue
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting capejet (Reply 23):
I wonder what would have happened to Braniff if Southwest had moved to DFW. Do you think WN would have hastened their demise?

If you're talking about moving when DFW opened, Braniff (plus DL and AA) would have hastened the demise of WN.

Quoting capejet (Reply 23):
If WN operated at DFW they would have been able to fly nonstop to places like Kansas City, they could not do that from Love Field.

DFW opened in January of 1974 and the Wright Amendment was not passed until 1979 following deregulation. WN's business model (at least until deregulation) was to remain an in-state carrier.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Would DAL Still Be Around Without Southwest?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:59 am

But like DAL for WN, would MDW reamined open without them as well?
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