Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4321
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:06 pm

After reading a United thread regarding the cancellation of a route, flown by an E120. So, I Googled her (I knew the aircraft as a "Brasilia"), and had flown her twice before in life. Just by her appearence, I thought she must be a very old frame. To my surprise she isn't that old, many more sold than I would have thought, and she has a nice niche.

On Wiki, it said the while no longer built, Embraer could still make them today should anyone want one.

Any E120 fans here? What her her virtues? Would an airline consider more for these niche missions? Her safety record?
What is newer that makes her obsolete for the same missions?

Thanks
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
UA1K3MM
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 5:10 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:29 pm

VC10er -- the EB120 is a great connector plane for smaller cities to a hub or focus city airports. I've flown them many times here on the west coast. The row 9 exit seats were the best! The remaining seats were much the same as those on the ERJ 135/145 series. The planes were somewhat noiser than an RJ but still a great ride. I believe there retirement is due to a couple of factors -- mainline airline capacity reduction and the loss of Federal subsidies to support essential air service to these small market cities. The EB120 sometimes got a bum rap because is was a prop vs RJ, but that was unfair since it's performance and safety were equal or better as we now see with the new larger prop regional aircraft like the Q600 series.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
What is newer that makes her obsolete for the same missions?

To my knowledge there isn't a direct successor in that exact niche. The plane still serves it's role, it's more a question of whether that capability is still economical to operate in this cost environment. As with the rest of the industry, everyone is moving to larger models with lower CASM, and then those routes that can't be saved by the lower CASM of larger planes (e.g., the 70-seaters replacing CRJs and ERJs) will continue to dwindle over time.


I think the issue is that, yes, EMB could easily do an E-120NG model with upgraded systems and all that, but I doubt they would recoup their expense. They will continue to serve their niche role until their mx becomes prohibitive, or their CASM rises above what the airlines are willing to endure.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5807
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:45 pm

Turboprops are making a comeback, but it seems 30 seaters and less haven't been invited to the party.

The family of Tprops that did survive, ATR and the Dash8, not to name them, have migrated towards larger frames. The best sellers are now 70 seaters and manufacturers are aiming bigger.

Airlines seek to replace jet service with turboprops, but the jets they are replacing are themselves 50 to 100 seaters, operating on routes that can now sustain that traffic.

Simply put, 30 pax is not enough these days to profitably operate an aircraft that size.
The Brasilia has the same engines with almost the same installed power as the ATR42 which carries 20 more pax...

That said, I would love to see Embraer return to the turboprop market with a new frame.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Her safety record?

ASA lost three in crashes. They lost one of their first E-120s on its' delivery flight from Brazil back in 1986, lost one at BQK in 1991 and lost one near Carrollton, GA in 1995.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Embraer-120-Brasilia/losses

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Would an airline consider more for these niche missions?

In the years prior to the introduction of the CRJ and ERJ, the Brasilia was the backbone of a number of regional carriers like ASA, Comair and SkyWest (who still operates the type). I really wouldn't say it was a niche aircraft at all; it's a pretty rugged little plane. It has seen some use as a cargo a/c as well, but there hasn't been a huge number of E-120s converted to freighter use. In its' heyday, it competed with the SAAB 340, DASH 8-100/200, ATR-42 and the Short 330/360. All five types were commonly used in commuter service in the US. Let's not forget that up until the time these a/c came into service in the early to mid-80s, you had airlines like Republic and some of the airlines operating under the American Eagle banner still using Convairliners and Gulfstream 1Cs.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4321
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:16 pm

So, while there it is highly unlikely Embraer would build a 120NG, if filled most of the time, wouldn't a 30 seat ac save little towns that are losing air service completely? Both in and outside the USA?

As a New Yorker, I could imagine many going out full to certain destinations. Let's take one wild guess...EWR or LGA to Provincetown on Cape Cod in the summer, points in Penn, and New England, even NY State. If not every day service, solving 6 to 8 hour drives could be great. I'd certainly fly to P-Town to avoid that drive! What type of runways do they need?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
bohica
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting UA1K3MM (Reply 1):
The planes were somewhat noiser than an RJ

But they were one of the quietest turboprops.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
The Brasilia has the same engines with almost the same installed power as the ATR42 which carries 20 more pax...

It was also fast for a turboprop, it could do 250 knots.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4):
In its' heyday, it competed with the SAAB 340, DASH 8-100/200, ATR-42 and the Short 330/360. All five types were commonly used in commuter service in the US.

A major advantage of the Brazilia at the time was the fact it only had 30 seats, while the others had more. Up until the mid 1990's, aircraft 30 seats and under could operate under FAR part 135. The ATR, SAAB, DASH, and Shorts had to operate under FAR part 121. Operating under part 135 was less expensive than operating under part 121. The Brazilia's advantage in this area was lost when the FAA made all operatiors of planes with 10 or more seats operate under part 121.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5031
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:41 pm

Interestingly, SkyWest has taken BACK some of its previously owned E-120s.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
durangomac
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:18 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:31 pm

EMB-120's aren't leaving the fleet at OO as quickly as every one thinks. In fact I think they will be around for at least 5 more years if not longer because they do fit a very niche market right now. They go into a lot of airports that can't handle larger aircraft because of limitations at the airport or because the airport just doesn't have the traffic to fill a larger aircraft.

IMO I think EMB needs to build a NG version. I suspect OO would probably jump on the NG version to modernize thier turboprop fleet. The EMB-120 is really the backbone of the Pro-Rate markets OO fly and they make good money for OO. They are getting more and more expensive to operated because of maintenance though.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:32 pm

Embraer wouldn't have to invest a whole lot into making an E120-ER(D) model... upgrade the avionics a bit, find some better air conditioning, lighter APU, lighter seats... the problem with some of the 120 (A/B) packages are they can only take about 25/26 passengers. The upgraded C kits can normally do 30 on the shortest runs with all the passengers and bags. So they need to figure out a way to drop 2,000 pounds off the machine if they want to restart the line.
xx
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5031
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 9):

Embraer wouldn't have to invest a whole lot into making an E120-ER(D) model... upgrade the avionics a bit, find some better air conditioning, lighter APU, lighter seats

A new propeller...

And while we're at it, a wider cabin.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14399
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:02 pm

You answered your own question, you flew a turboprop, you immediately thought it was old.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 9):
Embraer wouldn't have to invest a whole lot into making an E120-ER(D) model... upgrade the avionics a bit, find some better air conditioning, lighter APU, lighter seats... the problem with some of the 120 (A/B) packages are they can only take about 25/26 passengers. The upgraded C kits can normally do 30 on the shortest runs with all the passengers and bags. So they need to figure out a way to drop 2,000 pounds off the machine if they want to restart the line.

I was working at ASA back in 2000 when they started upgrading their Brasilias from the RT standard to the ER standard. We were leaving less bags as a result as the bag max went up enough so that hitting the max was less common as with the non-upgraded ones (If it had been painted into the Deltaflot livery, it had been converted to the ER standard). There were some routes in which the backlog of left behind bags got so bad at times that they had to get them delivered to those stations, as they didn't have any CRJ-200s or ATR-72s into those airports to help with the backlog.
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4321
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:36 pm

I can see it being niche, but I can also imagine in this whole wide world...many niches! In their own home of Brazil, with 800 hundred airstrips being built, (source: Presidenta Dilma) what a perfect aircraft.

However...EMB must have thought of this as they searched so hard to find A and B holes to fill? Right?

Embraer is now a bit famous and certainly is trustworthy. I can see thousands of small towns across the world that need a plane that size into a bigger airport. Endless in fact. Imagine UA international landings at EWR from Asia, Europe, South America and there is an E-120ER to Deleware or Atlantic City, Martha's Vinyard and far more.

Could EMB do an E-125NG (with 40 seats?) - E-175 interior styling? What is the minimum runway length?

In fact, I want one for myself! They could even add a modified version to their Exec Jet div.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8432
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:44 pm

I have my first Brasilia flight next month PDX-SEA.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
jolau1701
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:00 am

I actually got some pretty good sleep on an EMB120.
 
User avatar
Amwest2United
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting durangomac (Reply 8):
MB-120's aren't leaving the fleet at OO as quickly as every one thinks. In fact I think they will be around for at least 5 more years if not longer because they do fit a very niche market right now.

I heard somewhere that there is a "drop dead" date on the EM2 in the US, something about not being equipped with certain computers or something, anyone know anything about that?
Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4562
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:15 am

I worked for OO when Metro's and 120's were the fleet. In fact, had the chance to bring in the first CRJ OO got, and flew SLC to LAS for a few months. I loved loved loved the 120! Not only was it a fun plane to work on the ramp, but I flew on it every chance I could. Very cozy, and really fun to ride during the summer into PSP. I see them flying into SEA often, and love their unique sound. Aerorobnz, have fun! I need to book a quick trip on her again, just for memories sake! Beautiful airplane for sure!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25399
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:25 am

The adoration of the model does not square with economics.

Its a two sided problem.

Not only would a new NG be costlier to buy, small pax capacity does not offer enough revenue earning potential to cover the trip.

The economic problem of small props is not much different then smaller RJs at the end of the day.

Quoting Amwest2united (Reply 16):
something about not being equipped with certain computers or something, anyone know anything about that?

Something to do with navigation requirement and the Rockwell avionics. I'm not sure if EMB has an authorized upgrade ready, or if a US airline must foot the entire bill.

Though 120's maintenance cost esp engines is rising as well, so its economics is getting worse by the year.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8667
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
wouldn't a 30 seat ac save little towns that are losing air service completely? Both in and outside the USA?

Small 30 seaters still play a very, very important role outside of the contiguous United States and Europe. Canada, Alaska, and Australia are two obvious examples, where Metroliners, Saab 340s, Dash 8 100/200s etc are used to fly to remote and regional centres which simply could not be operated efficiently by larger aircraft.

At the moment the airlines that fly these types will fly them until they cycle out, and then replace them with ...................

Quoting durangomac (Reply 8):
IMO I think EMB needs to build a NG version. I suspect OO would probably jump on the NG version to modernize thier turboprop fleet.

PDT would almost certainly be interested as well.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
VC10er
Topic Author
Posts: 4321
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:43 pm

How does the Brasilia do in mountaous areas? I'm thinking about skiing and those who live high up in Switzerland etc? Nepal?

Could the E120 be stretched to 40 pax?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8432
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 17):
Aerorobnz, have fun! I need to book a quick trip on her again, just for memories sake! Beautiful airplane for sure!

It's part of my US Trip. 24 flights for the log book. trying to get on as many new types and airlines as possible. I'm certainly excited, and I'll have a few hours in PDX for logging and photographing as many as I can. I already have a number from LAX hoping to get the whole fleet this trip
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
cornutt
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:57 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:49 am

Flew ASA E120s many times back in the day. It was a hot little performer, a sports car of an airliner, with acceleration and climb performance that would push you back into the seat. It was great for serving small towns and providing more flight frequency to medium-sized towns. Interior was small, no doubt about that. But for a short flight it was tolerable. I always kind of liked the engine and prop noise; I thought it was soothing.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: Future Of The E120 (Brasilia)

Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 20):
How does the Brasilia do in mountaous areas? I'm thinking about skiing and those who live high up in Switzerland etc? Nepal?[/quote]


At least when temperatures are high performance at altitude is terrible. This was the reason UA pulled them out of DEN in 2008 (yes, I know they're back again, but in smaller numbers and mostly serving EAS routes I believe).

[quote=VC10er,reply=13] Imagine UA international landings at EWR from Asia, Europe, South America and there is an E-120ER to Deleware or Atlantic City, Martha's Vinyard and far more.

You don't really have to use your imagination on this one. Smaller turbo props have been used to feed mainline flights for qyuite some time. The problem in places like EWR is that a 30 seater is a pretty poor use of limited airport capacity

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):

Could EMB do an E-125NG (with 40 seats?) - E-175 interior styling?

I would assume a stretch would require at minimum a beefing up of the structure to accommodate the extra weight. Performance might not be too great without a new larger wing and more powerful engines. 170 style interior of course requires a new fuselage. At this point, as you can see, you've just created a brand new clean sheet design.

Quoting Amwest2united (Reply 16):
I heard somewhere that there is a "drop dead" date on the EM2 in the US, something about not being equipped with certain computers or something, anyone know anything about that?

I hadn't heard anythign about this, but would be curious if anyone has more info.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):

Not only would a new NG be costlier to buy, small pax capacity does not offer enough revenue earning potential to cover the trip.

I agree that the high costs of a modern new clean sheet design would create a significant barrier without significant advances in operating costs. I'm curious how much cheaper a modern design could be to operate compared to the now almost 30 year old EMB-120, DHC-8-100, and SAAB 340 designs. Perhaps 10 years from now as maintenance costs rise for these aging birds and the used market dries up it will be financially possible to profitably make a new 30-50 seater.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
The economic problem of small props is not much different then smaller RJs at the end of the day.

The difference is that with low lease or acquisition costs small props can be operated profitably without even needing a fee for departure. SkyWest has stated the EMB-120 fleet is more profitable than the -200 or -700 fleet.
When in doubt, one B pump off

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos