almehairiauh
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Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Emirates has retired its first 2 of 10 A340-500 from its fleet for parting out in Ras Al Khaimah,UAE

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-parting-out-its-a340-500s-390832/
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:44 pm

The first one (A6-ERF) is stored at DXB since May 2013.

[Edited 2013-09-23 08:11:43]
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Auchmithie
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:52 pm

A6-ERF positioned DXB-RKT as EK999 on 27th August.
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:04 pm

I thought these planes were on 10 year leases from Airbus. Does anybody know? If so it wiill be Airbus' liabilty.
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
I thought these planes were on 10 year leases from Airbus. Does anybody know? If so it wiill be Airbus' liabilty.

Back in June Mr. Clark noted that Airbus had to take them back, but I guess that has changed?
 
Newark727
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:22 pm

Wow, straight to parting out, huh? For some reason I had expected former EK aircraft to maybe find another operator (as I recall, some of their A330-200s and maybe A340-300s have gone to other airlines) but this is the -500 series we're talking about so there must be no demand at all for that.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
I thought these planes were on 10 year leases from Airbus.

Think you're referring to the A340-300 fleet.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Back in June Mr. Clark noted that Airbus had to take them back, but I guess that has changed?

Perhaps there was some sort of fair market value implicit in Airbus agreeing to take the aircraft back? Or perhaps the value of the first aircraft being parted out is higher for now in spares? The value of those spares to EK would obviously decline quite a bit as the fleet is retired from service.

The statements Tim Clark makes in the article about the aircraft's viability at current fuel prices remind me of John Leahy's offer that Airbus would subsidize fuel cost differentials (vis a vis the 777L/W) for future A345/6 customers -- Airbus is certainly lucky no one took him up on that!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
I thought these planes were on 10 year leases from Airbus. Does anybody know? If so it wiill be Airbus' liabilty.

They're not leased from Airbus.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
almehairiauh
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:39 pm

8 A340-300 are leased from SIA

Quoting EK773 (Reply 6):
Think you're referring to the A340-300 fleet
 
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EPA001
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Back in June Mr. Clark noted that Airbus had to take them back, but I guess that has changed?

Maybe Airbus can use them as leverage for an upcoming EK-order?   .

On-topic: it is sad to see the most beautiful civil airliner in my book will be phased out by more and more airlines. The boring WB-twins will rule the majority of civilian aviation for a long time to come. Let's hope the A380 and B748 will continue to keep some 4-holers in the sky where they belong.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):
or some reason I had expected former EK aircraft to maybe find another operator (as I recall, some of their A330-200s and maybe A340-300s have gone to other airlines), but this is the -500 series we're talking about so there must be no demand at all for that.

The A340-500 only really works as a deep C Market ULH aircraft (missions over 14,000km) and there are not many such routes. And if you were serious about long-term operations on such a route, you'd rather have the 777-200LR since it will save you significantly on fuel and carry significantly more payload (so better revenues to offset the high operating costs) so even with average used values double that of the A340-500, a 777-200LR could pay for itself inside a year and even a new 777-200LR could cover the difference inside of 18-24 months.


Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
The statements Tim Clark makes in the article about the aircraft's viability at current fuel prices remind me of John Leahy's offer that Airbus would subsidize fuel cost differentials (vis a vis the 777L/W) for future A345/6 customers -- Airbus is certainly lucky no one took him up on that!

Indeed. On a similar stage length, EK's 777-200LRs burn between 14-17% less fuel per trip than their A340-500s. If they operated the A340-500 instead of the 777-200LR on DXB-LAX, for example, the fuel bill would be over $40,000 higher at the current spot price for Jet A. That's over $30 million a year assuming one round-trip a day. Add in the extra revenue from higher passenger and cargo loads for the 777-200LR and the the A340-500's deficit only widens.

 
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
...it is sad to see the most beautiful civil airliner in my book will be phased out by more and more airlines.

Alas, like Concorde, beauty doesn't pay the bills.

[Edited 2013-09-23 08:57:32]
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Indeed. On a similar stage length, EK's 777-200LRs burn between 14-17% less fuel per trip than their A340-500s. If they operated the A340-500 instead of the 777-200LR on DXB-LAX, for example, the fuel bill would be over $40,000 higher at the current spot price for Jet A. That's over $30 million a year assuming one round-trip a day. Add in the extra revenue from higher passenger and cargo loads for the 777-200LR and the the A340-500's deficit only widens.

That means a DXB-LAX trip fuel costs around $250,000, bloody hell, I didn't realise it was that high. If a single route can save $30 million a year, no wonder new airframes are flying off the shelves, a new WB can pay for itself in 5 years or so.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
If they operated the A340-500 instead of the 777-200LR on DXB-LAX, for example, the fuel bill would be over $40,000 higher at the current spot price for Jet A. That's over $30 million a year assuming one round-trip a day.

So I actually went back and paid attention to what I was doing, and the difference works out to around $17,000 a flight, not $40,000. Which knocks the difference down to $6 million a year. Still high, but not nearly as catastrophic.



Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 12):
That means a DXB-LAX trip fuel costs around $250,000, bloody hell, I didn't realise it was that high.

It isn't. My calculations used a garbage equation so the output was equally garbage.

The fuel bill for the A340-500 would work out to about $137,000 and for the 777-200LR, it would be about $120,000.

[Edited 2013-09-23 10:34:19]
 
kaitak
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):...it is sad to see the most beautiful civil airliner in my book will be phased out by more and more airlines.
Alas, like Concorde, beauty doesn't pay the bills.

So true. History just repeats itself ... a specialised aircraft for ULH missions has never really ended that well - the 747SP and L1011-500 proved that too; the only exception has been the 777-200LR, mostly because it has worked very well as a freighter.

Still, sad to see this most wonderful of aircraft joining the likes of the Convair 990, 764 and 753 near the bottom of the sales league.

I know they want to wind down their fleet quite quickly, but I can't help wondering if the A345 is really the best aircraft they could use on their new Kabul route!
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:10 pm

How about the Iranians? Surely they are interested in upgrading their fleet, and 10 year old A345s will beat those 35+year old 742s and SPs anyday.

and they have shown that they can survive the sanctions.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:16 pm

I give just 5 more years before the A340s are retired from most fleets, and those that will still operate them will have begun withdrawing them. I don't think even African/former Soviet airliners would want it. Maybe some VIP transport, but other than that, to the desert or that new coke can.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
Maybe Airbus can use them as leverage for an upcoming EK-order?

How many more Airbii can EK take? They already have 70 A350s+50 options, and still well over 50 A380s with options to deliver. And that still doesn't include the over 60 77W with options being supplied from Boeing.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):

That sounds more like it, thanks for correcting the info.

Slightly off topic, but would you have the same info comparing the 77w v A346
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:09 pm

I recently had the pleasure of flying the EK 345.

The 345 is a beautiful aircraft, but it is too heavy to be economical. With an OEW higher than the 77W, it has had it's day.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting almehairiauh (Reply 9):
8 A340-300 are leased from SIA

Wrong.

These are former SQ birds, but SQ stopped owning them as soon as they traded them to Boeing for 777-200ERs.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
I thought these planes were on 10 year leases from Airbus. Does anybody know? If so it wiill be Airbus' liabilty.

Wrong.

All the A340s are leased, from a wide variety of leasing and financing companies, that have little or nothing to do with Boeing or Airbus or Singapore Airlines.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:27 pm

From the OP link: “We’ve taken a big hit to retire them, but [their poor economics means] there’s no point in flying them,” says Clark. “They were designed in the late 1990s with fuel at $25-30. They fell over at $60 and at $120 they haven’t got a hope in hell.”

How much of a write down is EK taking per frame? Yes, they are avoiding a heavy maintenance, but I'm curious as to the 'short term cost' too. It must be $20M to $30M per airframe... Thus I speculate EK can only afford to write down 2 or 3 per quarter and keep the loans/leases coming in for fleet expansion.

Quoting almehairiauh (Thread starter):

Emirates has retired its first 2 of 10 A340-500 from its fleet for parting out in Ras Al Khaimah,UAE

I'm officially confused. I would have *sworn* I read in another thread here that 2 had been pulled from service for a while. Were they stored with a few flights left 'in reserve?'

I also would have sworn EK had price guarantees on the A345s...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Back in June Mr. Clark noted that Airbus had to take them back
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
So I actually went back and paid attention to what I was doing, and the difference works out to around $17,000 a flight, not $40,000. Which knocks the difference down to $6 million a year. Still high, but not nearly as catastrophic.

Thank you for the numbers. But there is also a maintenance hit of about $1.5M per year for ULH vs. the 77W...

I would have sworn the fuel burn difference was a little higher... per this old thread, the A345 burned 152.1T vs. 77L at 130.5T for a hypothetical still air 8,000nm (see post #8):
77L/A345 ULH Ops: Less Efficient Than A DC-10? (by faro Jan 19 2011 in Tech Ops)

With fuel averaging right at a thosand dollars per metric ton ($1,001, but I think we can round...):
http://www.iata.org/publications/eco...-monitor/Pages/price-analysis.aspx

That is a cost per flight difference of $21,500 or so. Or $7.9M per year plus the maintenance difference. Or say about $9.4M per year. That really makes the business case to spend a few million on a heavy maintenance tough.

Sad to see such pretty planes go. But economically they are creamed by any widebody twin on shorter missions and whittled down by EK's own 77Ls on longer missions.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
I give just 5 more years before the A340s are retired from most fleets,

So you've read the VS and LH threads.   But it will take until 2018 for all the replacement aircraft to be delivered. SQ and EK are ahead of the pack...

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
How many more Airbii can EK take?

What rights to China will EK be granted? That is the barely touched market for EK. With the recent growth in Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the CIS, they have room to grow.

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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 17):
Slightly off topic, but would you have the same info comparing the 77w v A346...

The only figures I have there are the per-hour ones zeke provided, which shows the A340-600 burns on average 800kg more fuel per hour (8900 kg/hr compared to 8100 kg/hour average).



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
I would have sworn the fuel burn difference was a little higher...

The numbers for DXB-LAX come straight from EK's Flight Planning folks so it includes things like contingency fuel and fuel for the designated alternate (in this case, LAS) along with the ZFW, TOW and LWT.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:21 pm

From ATWonline today :
Emirates Airline will begin daily Dubai-Kabul Airbus A340-500 service Dec. 4
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Add in the extra revenue from higher passenger and cargo loads for the 777-200LR and the the A340-500's deficit only widen


Not necessarily. The A345 has got 4x extra seats in 1st cabin over the 77L in addition to slightly larger cargo hold.

EK 345s have been regularly visiting VIE and DME. Any other European cities these birds been flown to ?

[Edited 2013-09-23 13:59:56]
 
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Mikey86
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:09 pm

What will EK do for long range aircraft then? Would they consider some more 77L's? I know they use the 77W on West Coast USA routes though.

One question I have is why would they phase these out the 345 before the 343.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 24):
What will EK do for long range aircraft then? Would they consider some more 77L's?

I believe they are looking to the newer upgraded A380s to be delivered over the next few years to handle the long range routes whilst also adding capacity to slot restricted airports at the same time.

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 24):
why would they phase these out the 345 before the 343

The A345s were originally hired for long range routes such as DXB-MEL non-stop. This can now be handled by A380s. The A343s are for shorter haul missions where the A332 was not enough capacity and EK has not directly replaced these as yet though this will change as more 77Ws and A350s come online.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:38 pm

It seems that, even when taking these aircraft out of service, they have a very good strategy - using one as a backup and one for spare parts. This decision should save fuel, reduce maintenance costs and reduce delays on their network. Perhaps as the years go by they'll take more out of service and use them for spares as well, and a lot of the parts can be used for other A340s, so it's not all going to waste. If they put the engines on other aircraft until the end of their service lives and take off all of the useful parts then in the end the only thing wasted is the fuselage itself, and even that has got ten years of use.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:39 pm

These aircraft needed a big cabin refit to bring them up to EK's 77W/A380 standard, particularly in the premium product. This combined with the heavy maintenance liability noted by Lighsaber has guaranteed this fleet an early grave

Its interesting that the long haulers of 30 and 40 years ago, 707s, DC-8's, 741's, DC-10's etc found ready secondary markets with charter companies, but the pure cost of fuel today, just does not allow this to happen
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:53 pm

When do they start to phase out their non ER 777-300's?
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting AA2MM (Reply 22):
From ATWonline today :
Emirates Airline will begin daily Dubai-Kabul Airbus A340-500 service Dec. 4

Already being discussed in this recent thread:
Emirates Announces Kabul, Afghanistan From Dec (by ojas Sep 16 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
The numbers for DXB-LAX come straight from EK's Flight Planning folks so it includes things like contingency fuel and fuel for the designated alternate (in this case, LAS) along with the ZFW, TOW and LWT.

I'm a little obsessed by this as it drives A340 replacement. For years I've posted here about the losses and I want to make sure my numbers are about right.

For let's do a little 'game theory.' If the A345 has a cost penalty of $7M/year, then most A345/6s will not go through a heavy maintenance. In between is more of a case by case decision. From observations, we're more towards the upper end fo the range than the lower.

From the comments from EK's CEO indicate none of the planes will fly much longer. I suspect many will be parked during DXB's runway maintenance too. What I'm curious to know is if any A345s will fly post the runway overhaul.

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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:32 am

Quoting shankly (Reply 27):
These aircraft needed a big cabin refit to bring them up to EK's 77W/A380 standard, particularly in the premium product.

The A340-500 introduced the enclosed First Class Suites and Business Class seats found on the 777-200LR, 777-300ER and A380-800.  

It also has that cool "starlight sky" (I think it might only be in First Class) - not sure if that is on the 777s and A380s.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:41 am

Airbus's best looking aircraft heading to the scrap heap. Shame.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
It also has that cool "starlight sky" (I think it might only be in First Class) - not sure if that is on the 777s and A380s.

It is on the 77W. Don't remember if it is on the A345. Been a few years since I used to fly them but my main memory from the A345 was that the economy armrests are(were) very low.
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:44 am

So we know the new regional DXB-KBP and DXB-KBL routes will be operated by the A345... What other routes is EK using them on? Seems like EK's former flagship aircraft that pioneered nonstop EK routes from DXB to JFK, MEL, and SYD was quickly relegated to secondary routes after the ULH 777s entered the fleet?
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Mikey86
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 25):
Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 24):What will EK do for long range aircraft then? Would they consider some more 77L's?
I believe they are looking to the newer upgraded A380s to be delivered over the next few years to handle the long range routes whilst also adding capacity to slot restricted airports at the same time.

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 24): why would they phase these out the 345 before the 343
The A345s were originally hired for long range routes such as DXB-MEL non-stop. This can now be handled by A380s. The A343s are for shorter haul missions where the A332 was not enough capacity and EK has not directly replaced these as yet though this will change as more 77Ws and A350s come online.

Thanks Mate! That makes sense. I am really liking the look of the A350!
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thegivenone
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
It is on the 77W. Don't remember if it is on the A345. Been a few years since I used to fly them but my main memory from the A345 was that the economy armrests are(were) very low.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):

It also has that cool "starlight sky" (I think it might only be in First Class) - not sure if that is on the 777s and A380s.

Yup, they have the starry night skies installed in Economy and Business as well, just on every second panel as opposed to every panel (creating a somewhat discontinuous night sky).

I agree with the general sentiment that the A340-500 is one gorgeous (and well proportioned) bird, but I have to say that EK's cabins on the type are attrocious. I fly these a lot to Entebbe and the state of the the seats (covers, IFE, loose fittings, low arm rests) leaves a lot to be desired. The general cabin appearance and (lack of) cleanliness implies that the haven't been a maintenance priority either.
 
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting almehairiauh (Thread starter):
Emirates has retired its first 2 of 10 A340-500 from its fleet for parting out in Ras Al Khaimah,UAE

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-parting-out-its-a340-500s-390832/

The article says one plane is being parted out as parts donor to keep the rest flying, and another one has been reduced to backup status.

Isnt it ironic, even hilarious that the biggest company in the oil emirates is complaining about the fuel price?
 
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EK413
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:05 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 10):
Maybe Airbus can use them as leverage for an upcoming EK-order?

EK already ordered 90 A380's so I doubt Airbus would use them as leverage.  

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AyostoLeon
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting na (Reply 37):

Why? Oil is not aviation fuel.

Austria produces oil yet I suspect that OS is not exactly ecstatic over the price it pays. Dubai produces little oil compared to Abu Dhabi and this is important because the oil and its revenues belong to the individual emirates and their international partners.

But of course you can't just pump oil out of the ground and into an Airbus. It requires refinement first and while refining capacity in the UAE is increasing it does not match demand. So we see that Dubai imports considerable quantities of oil and petroleum products, including aviation fuel. Much like Austria, I imagine and so far we haven't even looked at why EK might be worried about the high price of fuel at JFK or FRA.

Here's a hint. The royalty an oil producing state might receive has little bearing on the final price of aviation fuel.
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na
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 39):

Of course I know that, still I think its ironic as the owners of Emirates are more or less the same who ask for the skyrocketing crude oil prices. Sounds a bit like the CEO of Mercedes complaining about the high prices of his cars in the dealerships.

[Edited 2013-09-24 07:42:51]
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting na (Reply 40):

Again, crude oil prices are not set by the producers. In fact at several crucial stages OPEC has interceded to increase supply in an effort to keep prices down. Between the hole in the ground and the hole in the fuel tank are many people looking for a free lunch. It isn't all that long ago that the media was feeding the frenzy to see how high oil prices could be pushed and none of it was related to production. It was all stimulated by speculators and middlemen.

The real irony is that despite OPEC increasing production in 2008 in the face of historic world price speculation and in an effort to contain prices, Dubai was a major loser from the subsequent financial crisis of 2009.

As to any suggestion that Dubai is behind the current high prices, the figures produced suggest otherwise. In August 2013 (latest available) the spot prices according to OPEC were as follows:
Basket 107.52
Dubai 106.81
Brent 111.27

Looking at refiners margins Dubai does not appear to be faring all that well. A comparison of US Gulf shows Bonny at 8.18 with Brent at 7.01 while over in Singapore Dubai margin is 0.56 while Minas is 2.76 (All US $/b)

These figures hardly suggest that Dubai is profiteering from crude oil production, let alone that EK is an indirect beneficiary.

[Edited 2013-09-24 08:35:44]
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
shankly
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: Emirates Phased Out First 2 A340-500

Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting thegivenone (Reply 36):
I fly these a lot to Entebbe and the state of the the seats (covers, IFE, loose fittings, low arm rests) leaves a lot to be desired.

Thankyou thegivenone. Stitch may have seen the pics, but like you've I've experienced the poor interior on these planes (on the DXB-CPT run). It was a big downgrade from the once regular 77W's
L1011 - P F M

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